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Brazil1429 Posts
My opinions are my own.
It's only natural that the discussion around and about the distribution of prizemoney for The International 2014 appeared once again. It always surfaces everytime the event happens and it's not different right now. Maybe it is a little different because the current prizepool is a monstrous $6,192,668 by the time I'm writing it.
I'm not going to write here how the scene would benefit if TI4 manages to become less top heavy, because it's so damn obvious and because there are countless practical and pragmatical examples of it in different sports leagues. It's what's going to happen if Dota 2 pretends to have a competitive field for teams to battle. What I'm going to address is a specific argument that is floating around this discussion. One that I think it's repugnant and must be addressed. One that is ignorant of DotA's history as a competitive game.
The argument says that rewarding teams that didn't get top positions at The International is bad because it turns the competition into a charity event. The core of the argument understands that only the best teams should be rewarded, so it doesn't make any sense to reward those who didn't get to Top 8. If that was the case, teams would be content with just being at The International.
Once again, I'm not going to tackle the economics here, because a single glance on the prize breakdown of any sane and serious sports league in the world can do that for me. What is really frustrating is this notion that teams would settle with being 15th, 16th because they're getting money. Apparently, if you reward them for just being there, you're not rewarding competitiveness and thus are damaging the tournament as a whole, because teams wouldn't need to play hard to get money. It's frustrating because it fails to understand what competition is. It understands that the drive to compete comes only from the prizepool, that teams only compete because of the chance to win money. While that's not entirely false, it's also not entirely true. To think that teams that are competitive enough to get to TI4 would settle for last is absurd. Any true competitor hates losing, be it losing at Dota or losing in a tooth-brushing contest.
We all too easily falsify what competition is in that we throw it together with predatory competition, where the aim is to destroy and pillage the opponent, the winner taking everything and the loser nothing. In true competitions, however, the striving opponents elevate each other. They need each other in order to reach higher skies. While competitors are fighting, each carries the other out of and beyond itself. The harder the competition by itself intensifies, the more the competitors release themselves in the inner fervor of the game. The harder they fight, the more they belong to each other. They need the opponent in order to reach excellency. They can't eliminate the opponent because in doing so they're giving up of that person that can help him reach higher skies. It is for a reason that rivalries are a big deal in sports, because having a true rival means having someone that you can compete with for the sake of competitiveness. Of course it's important to reward the winner, but there's no competition possible without at least two players (in the case of TI4, 16 teams, or 19 if we count the Wildcard teams).
To suggest that money is the only drive that moves competition is not only not understanding what competition is, it's also ignoring the history of a game where players fought for fame and glory with almost no money on the line. This is the root of Dota as a game and this is what made The International possible. This insane prizepool only exists because competition is it own drive (and because of a well planned project by Valve, this must also be stated). That said, we should be aware of this confusion between competition and predatory competition. It's better for the scene that teams thrive and flourish and it's bad for the scene when teams disappear. I think one way to start fixing that is finally recognizing (and rewarding accordingly) that being one of the 16 (or 19) teams on The International is a big deal.
EDIT: Just for curiosity, here some links with the prizepool distribution of some big events around the world. UEFA Champions League, Golf Masters, Wimbledon, Le Tour de France.
EDIT2: Fixed some typos.
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Also significant though, is that expanding the prize money to 16 teams means that many more teams could be fighting very hard just to even get into the top 16 in the first place, because simply getting there means your team is able to survive and be stable. The fact that of the top sixteen teams, 8 might not even exist by the next TI because they go bankrupt is kind of absurd, especially considering how difficult even getting into the top 16 is in the first place.
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The argument says that rewarding teams that didn't get top positions at The International is bad because it turns the competition into a charity event. The core of the argument understands that only the best teams should be rewarded, so it doesn't make any sense to reward those who didn't get to Top 8. If that was the case, teams would be content with just being at The International.
What blows my mind about this mindset is that it seriously denigrates the competition required to get to The International. The teams chosen aren't chosen out of a hat or what have you, they're chosen because they've proven themselves time and time again to be the best. "The sixteen best teams from around the world" is the usual refrain about TI - by that logic, the teams present should be rewarded, at least in some part.
It's also pretty disgusting to say that someone would be "content" with 15/16th because they're guaranteed something. I mean yeah, $30k would be nice, but if you think I wouldn't bust my ass to try and make that $30k into $60k or $3m or whatever, you're mental.
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Well, I don't think that teams that came top16-9 just were there, because they had to perform for the whole year(or half), they had to qualify to win their spot and etc.
They didn't just appear there, they fought for that invite, to be a part of TI and I think they should be rewarded with some money for it.
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Including the wildcards there are 19 teams (11 invites, 4 qualified teams, 4 "wildcard" teams)
Also, nobody wants a winner takes all tournament (lol that SC2 joke). On the other hand, the idea that MUFC 0-14 @TI3 "sharpened their opponents" is of course a fallacy. ("As steel sharpens steel, so one man sharpens another")
Regardless, the real argument still isn't "well the bottom teams suck so they don't deserve money" it is "well there should be more to the scene than TI and having TI award every attendee as much money as winning almost any other tournament would award artificially stratifies the scene and turns into valve subsidizing the scene instead of promoting it". Most dota fans do NOT want an LCS situation where "These teams get paid a livable salary by the publisher/developer to play the game and everybody else doesn't" but awarding even 1% of the winnings to each team results in a $60,000+ "sponsorship" to the attending teams.
That said, I like the "extend the prize pool to top 12" plan. With something around 8M likely as a final prize pool, there's definitely enough money to go around.
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I also find the argument of it being an invitational rather weak. This is a unique situation different from any other invitational tournament. If I hosted an invitational tomorrow in StarCraft not a single one of the players invited would have planned their year in order to be a part of that. Doing that and giving prize money to the last place finisher would basically just be handing out money. However invites at The International come through a grueling year long qualifying process. Every team has its eye on The International and getting invited for it is the reward for hard work and world class play in countless tournaments. Basically the whole year every tournament a team plays leads to that moment of being invited to The International. Having an issue with prize money for the lower spots because they didn't have to work for it seems absurd.
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Completely agree.
Just take a look at this year FIFA World Cup, with a ~500M prize pool
+ Show Spoiler [Prize pool distribution] +Before the tournament, each of the 32 entrants will receive US$1.5 million for preparation costs.
Once at the tournament, the prize money will be distributed as follows:
US$8 million – To each team eliminated at the group stage (16 teams)
US$9 million – To each team eliminated in the round of 16 (8 teams)
US$14 million – To each team eliminated in the quarter-finals (4 teams)
US$20 million – Fourth placed team
US$22 million – Third placed team
US$25 million – Runner up
US$35 million – Winner
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Definitely agree that every invited team at the international played their asses off to earn an invite and deserve to be there. Na'Vi are probably the closest to a pure "invite" this year.
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I don't want to just give money to teams that clearly didn't deserve to be there *cough* MUFC *cough*
I think paying teams for wins would be sensible so all teams get a bonus of the prizepool for their wins in the group-stages.
I just can not agree with giving money to teams that show up and lose fucking everything, because said team clearly didn't deserve to be in the money any more than let's say the play-in teams. I mean if we want to pay the teams for working hard and making it to seattle then surely we should pay the play-in teams too, right? They need to spend time practicing and so on just as much as the team that makes it trough the play-in and becomes one of the 16 teams. (No i don't actually think play-in teams that don't make it should be paid, i think teams should be rewarded for playing well at TI)
If we paid teams for getting wins in the group stages this rewards teams that play well and actually create entertainment for the viewers, and punishes teams that clearly weren't supposed to be at the event at all. I mean let's say we had a team in the scene that was all legacy and hadn't actually performed at all leading up to TI, and they were giving a direct invite simply because of said legacy. If they show up and lose everything, they definitely wouldn't be deserving of any money just for being there. That would be insulting to teams in the play-in that might've put up a much more serious fight in the tournament but just barely got eliminated.
TI shouldn't be there to allow a player to be competitive, it shouldn't be what the scenes revolves around.
It shouldn't be there to make sure all the teams can remain competitive, because that would mean we have a scene that can't survive without TI which would be super fucking bad for the scene as a whole.
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On May 22 2014 02:21 Unleashing wrote:
I don't want to just give money to teams that clearly didn't deserve to be there *cough* MUFC *cough*
So all the wins and achievements MUFC had prior to TI, which earned them an invite spot were nothing? They did not get an invite just for fun. They got an invite because there were considered one of the top teams in the world.
Lets say EG will end up 0-16 or 1-15 at this years TI. Does it mean they clearly did not deserve to be there?
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United States230 Posts
On May 22 2014 01:42 Sn0_Man wrote:
Regardless, the real argument still isn't "well the bottom teams suck so they don't deserve money" it is "well there should be more to the scene than TI and having TI award every attendee as much money as winning almost any other tournament would award artificially stratifies the scene and turns into valve subsidizing the scene instead of promoting it". Most dota fans do NOT want an LCS situation where "These teams get paid a livable salary by the publisher/developer to play the game and everybody else doesn't" but awarding even 1% of the winnings to each team results in a $60,000+ "sponsorship" to the attending teams.
But isn't it... OUR money that would act as the subsidy? Just because the publisher/developer is acting as the intermediary for the money that's going from us to the teams via the prize pool doesn't make it their money, just as if, colloquially speaking, I pay for a movie ticket with a debit card, it wasn't JP Morgan Chase that subsidized the movie studio but me. So in the case that all 16 teams get a prize, the publisher/developer isn't really paying the players a salary... we are. In fact, Valve can keep its original prize distribution exactly the same, and ours could in theory be completely flat across the teams*. Wouldn't this really be THE COMMUNITY paying the teams a flat (very high) salary to play the game? And would that really be so bad?
I feel that talking about Valve at all in terms of the prize pool is a misdirection of sorts, even if one made in good faith.
* I don't actually support a position this extreme, just illustrating the point.
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Katowice25012 Posts
I don't think the invitational argument is completely irrelevant, it is at least a little weird to have Valve pick participants and then pay them all out. It is, however, a mistake to assume that because of it being marginally unusual not paying some teams is then the best solution - TI works out in such a way that people almost universally agree on each invite. It's not like there are huge wildcards in there that don't deserve it, people almost without exception agree that the teams competing are there because they earned their spot and each year the number of teams who qualify in a more literal sense increases.
I honestly think the top-heavy prize structure even among the top 8 spots is a bigger issue than how many teams are paid overall though. I feel like people keep focusing on whether or not 16 deserve to be paid at all when the difference between 1st and 2nd last year was a difference of 28% of the total pool, its insane that second place was worth less than half of first. I agree with you it's the more obvious issue but no one is talking about it.
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On May 22 2014 02:21 Unleashing wrote:
I don't want to just give money to teams that clearly didn't deserve to be there *cough* MUFC *cough*
Do you realize that MUFC was beating Orange in tournaments at the time they were invited/"qualified"? There's many cases of underperforming teams/players in every competition. That doesn't mean professional teams should go unrewarded for being the best of their region and basically guarantee their disbandment after the tournament ends.
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Brazil1429 Posts
I updated the thread with the prizepool breakdown of different sports leagues. Take a look at them if you have the curiosity. It makes you question even the notion that first place should get 50% of the total prizepool.
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On May 22 2014 02:32 Noya wrote:
Do you realize that MUFC was beating Orange in tournaments at the time they were invited/"qualified"? There's many cases of underperforming teams/players in every competition. That doesn't mean professional teams should go unrewarded for being the best of their region and basically guarantee their disbandment after the tournament ends.
Or hell, it could just be an off week. I mean, yeah, the timing sucks, but if you claim you've never had a few days/a week where you played some of the shittiest dota of your life, well, you're either lying or way more consistent than anyone, pro-teams included.
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On May 22 2014 02:43 shostakovich wrote:
I updated the thread with the prizepool breakdown of different sports leagues. Take a look at them if you have the curiosity. It makes you question even the notion that first place should get 50% of the total prizepool.
I agree, 50% to first is too high for a tournament with a prize pool like this, no team needs ~$3-4M. I'd like to see redistribution of the revenue among top8 or top12 teams. I don't want top16 distribution outside of something like "every round robin win is worth $X,000" or similar.
On May 22 2014 02:51 Kyrosiris wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2014 02:32 Noya wrote:
Do you realize that MUFC was beating Orange in tournaments at the time they were invited/"qualified"? There's many cases of underperforming teams/players in every competition. That doesn't mean professional teams should go unrewarded for being the best of their region and basically guarantee their disbandment after the tournament ends.
Or hell, it could just be an off week. I mean, yeah, the timing sucks, but if you claim you've never had a few days/a week where you played some of the shittiest dota of your life, well, you're either lying or way more consistent than anyone, pro-teams included.
Don't care. This shit ain't communism. Off weeks happen to everybody for sure, and everybody faces the consequences for that. Professional sports is about winning.
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On May 22 2014 03:07 Sn0_Man wrote:
Don't care. This shit ain't communism. Off weeks happen to everybody for sure, and everybody faces the consequences for that. Professional sports is about winning.
Of course it is not. Most of the teams worked hard to get an invite.
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On May 22 2014 02:43 shostakovich wrote:
I updated the thread with the prizepool breakdown of different sports leagues. Take a look at them if you have the curiosity. It makes you question even the notion that first place should get 50% of the total prizepool.
That's a bit biased. You could add a few of several examples of leagues that don't distribute prize money to everyone. Football Championship League in England only pays 1st and 2nd. Brazillian Beach volleyball pays 16 out of over a hundred of people/teams playing the circuit. In the NBA only teams that get to the playoffs get prize money. Even in your own example of the Champion's League, only teams in the Playoff Rounds get prize money, and a good number of teams are eliminated before it reaches that point.
And some of these sports comparisons are quite bad. World Cup prize money doesn't even go to the players afaik, some tournaments have a quite harsh qualification process, one does not simply qualify for the Champions League. And almost every single one has either a ranking system, like Tennis, or a National tournament that is used for qualification tournaments. The biggest issue with TI is that invites can be a bit arbitrary. This year they were almost unanimous, but last year if EG was playing a bit better at the time of the invites, Dignitas/EG would have been a very hard choice. It already wasn't so easy. You put Valve in a position os basically deciding who receives a big chunk of money.
TI's format is moving in a direction that rewarding every team is becoming more reasonable, but as long as invites are arbitrary I don't see an issue with not paying the last 4 teams or something. But this idea some people have that every single healthy sports league pays every single team or even has a very broad prize distribution is plain bullshit. There are examples of both cases. And even when it happens, teams are more often than not able to live without the prize money. Winning La Liga gives you like 3-4 million, that's a small fraction of what Messi makes in a month. Teams live on sponsorship deals, TV rights, ticket sales, etc. When you make 150m on TV rights, a fair comparions would be paying the last places in TI 100 bucks. The prize money is a drop in the bucket for big Football teams. The idea of supporting players with prize money is quite unique to ESPORTS, which makes most comparisons pretty bad.
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On May 22 2014 03:07 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2014 02:43 shostakovich wrote:
I updated the thread with the prizepool breakdown of different sports leagues. Take a look at them if you have the curiosity. It makes you question even the notion that first place should get 50% of the total prizepool. I agree, 50% to first is too high for a tournament with a prize pool like this, no team needs ~$3-4M. I'd like to see redistribution of the revenue among top8 or top12 teams. I don't want top16 distribution outside of something like "every round robin win is worth $X,000" or similar. Show nested quote +On May 22 2014 02:51 Kyrosiris wrote:On May 22 2014 02:32 Noya wrote:
Do you realize that MUFC was beating Orange in tournaments at the time they were invited/"qualified"? There's many cases of underperforming teams/players in every competition. That doesn't mean professional teams should go unrewarded for being the best of their region and basically guarantee their disbandment after the tournament ends.
Or hell, it could just be an off week. I mean, yeah, the timing sucks, but if you claim you've never had a few days/a week where you played some of the shittiest dota of your life, well, you're either lying or way more consistent than anyone, pro-teams included. Don't care. This shit ain't communism. Off weeks happen to everybody for sure, and everybody faces the consequences for that. Professional sports is about winning.
the guy who scores a +20 at the masters still walks away with a nice bit of cash. Has nothing to do with communism, It has to do with showing respect to the best players the game has to offer and rewarding them for even being able to get there in the first place.
If the prize pool wasn't large enough to spread among 16 teams I would say top 8 is fine but it's clearly growing large enough to the point where the top 16 teams should all be rewarded just for either their amazing year and invite, or beating out all the other competition in their region and qualifying for the tournament. It's not spreading the wealth, it's giving money to people who have all earned it.
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On May 22 2014 04:33 SKC wrote:
The idea of supporting players with prize money is quite unique to ESPORTS, which makes most comparisons pretty bad.
It's also not really an idea that Valve likes. Prize money is a prize, not a salary or player support.
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EPT
