EPTWas it confusing at times? Sure. But it also made me pay more attention and immerse me more which this google glass variation doesn't exactly do.
So. Much. More. Character. T_T
Thief: An Uneven Project, In a New Age - Page 2
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
Was it confusing at times? Sure. But it also made me pay more attention and immerse me more which this google glass variation doesn't exactly do. So. Much. More. Character. T_T | ||
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DefMatrixUltra
Canada1992 Posts
This consolization of the gameplay is the highest impact limiter since it doesn't feel like the Thief games anymore - games which were very open and rewarded player knowledge (scouting) and ingenuity. Any ingenuity you feel in the new Thief is hollow or an illusion or (usually) both since all the (2 or 3) ways you can do something that seems clever have been meticulously planned out by someone. This leaves the player in a visibly fake environment with visibly fake choices. The incredible atmosphere that the original Thief games emitted simply cannot seep through the smoke and mirrors of this kiddie theme park, and the player is left feeling robbed. I could be out of touch, but I don't think the average person that is going to drop 50 bucks on a PC game like this is some kind of clueless incompetent who's never played video games before. Giving this excessive "training wheels experience" is condescending and (more importantly) serves only to highlight all the technical and design issues with the game. | ||
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inn5013orecl
United States227 Posts
On March 02 2014 08:07 wo1fwood wrote: It's not. It's a short description that I play as a ghost (e.g. I try to play stealth titles as if I don't exist to the NPCs) and that having health consumables seemed silly when I shouldn't be getting attacked anyway. Oh thank god. Glad I just misunderstood haha.  | ||
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Holy_AT
Austria978 Posts
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Zocat
Germany2229 Posts
On March 02 2014 17:39 r.Evo wrote: Speaking of that I think the map comparison made me more sad than anything else. For those who don't know in the old Thief games all that happened was that the area you were currently in was roughly highlighted in blue, leaving it up to you to find out where exactly you're at based on the compass, landmarks or swapping between two highlighted zones. On top of that you could write little notes that looked like Garretts handwriting pretty much all over it. Was it confusing at times? Sure. But it also made me pay more attention and immerse me more which this google glass variation doesn't exactly do. So. Much. More. Character. T_T No, the problem is that you have more information in the old maps than in the new one. While you know exactly where on the map you are in the new one - you know nothing else. While in most old maps you only knew roughly where you were but you also know roughly (depending on the level) were everything else is. When I overhear a NPC in the City talking about losing a ring on his way to the pawnshop in street X, I have no clue. Is that a hint that I can find a ring there? If yes, where the fuck is that street? What pawnshop? Hey, I can't even tell what district is the one next to me, since it doesn't say so on the map. In a city where Garrett grew up. Concerning the hot topic of rope arrows and context sensitive jumping/climbing. Honestly the old games don't have more options than the new Thief (they have larger levels and more connected levels, less "tube" levels). "I only can climb/rope arrow where the devs intend it" - it's the same in the old Thiefs. In the old Thief they would just not put a crate there - remember the empty rooms with no furniture at all? The new Thief has lots of crates, barrels & beams lying around - but they're not useable. The same applies to rope arrows - you could rope anywhere, but unless the devs wanted you to go somewhere you couldn't. Being Tarzan in the Bonehoard was intended. The difference is when you get feedback: In both games you wonder "Hmm, can I get up there?" You pull out your rope arrow and aim. New Thief gives you immediate feedback "Nope". In the old Thiefs you would rope arrow, climb it and only then realize "Nope, not a path". It was easier to feel immersed, it gave the illusion of having more options, the illusion of freedom - but it wasn't really more options (I still prefer the old arrows/free jumping, since it's more cool to try stuff out and then realize it's not an intended path). I think I should add a small paragraph about going where you're not intended to go. Yes, I know you can get the Talisman of Air in the Hammerite compound by climbing over the garden wall, thus avoiding a ton of scripted dialogues (which start patrols). I know I can Return to the Cathedral, not use the Talismans (ribcage & skull stacking) to get the Eye and leave the Cathedral without helping Brother Muru (crate stacking). But honestly - that's not "good design". That's an exploit, and while it sometimes feels awesome to break a game, it's not something designers should go for. From a designer point of view, this is _bad_. | ||
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NeThZOR
South Africa7387 Posts
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Deleted User 135096
3624 Posts
I dunno tho... I think I would disagree about the same amount of options, though I'd really have to go back and play 1+2 to refresh my memory better as it's been a while. Regardless, the problem isn't really that you lose choice but that not being able to choose feels like a slap on the wrist to the more creative players, and I think you'd agree with that. As I'm finding more and more with teaching kids, taking away their ownership of choice isn't going to be nearly as impactful to them, or teach them self reliant behaviors (in this case creative problem solving skills). Overall, in games the problem isn't that you're losing ability to choose, but that if you dip lower than a certain ability to choose that people will start resenting the system for consistently telling them, "no." No isn't really a great constructive mechanism. | ||
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daemir
Finland8662 Posts
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NeuroticPsychosis
United States322 Posts
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Thalandros
Netherlands1151 Posts
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
Also, compare to Mirrors Edge and Shadow of the Colossus where 3D platforming with the illusion of relevant options is used quite consistently to enhance the overall sense of mission and agency. It definitely should be built into the game, not added in as a "why not" design component. | ||
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DefMatrixUltra
Canada1992 Posts
On March 02 2014 21:30 Zocat wrote: It was easier to feel immersed, it gave the illusion of having more options, the illusion of freedom - but it wasn't really more options (I still prefer the old arrows/free jumping, since it's more cool to try stuff out and then realize it's not an intended path). [1] I think I should add a small paragraph about going where you're not intended to go. Yes, I know you can get the Talisman of Air in the Hammerite compound by climbing over the garden wall, thus avoiding a ton of scripted dialogues (which start patrols). I know I can Return to the Cathedral, not use the Talismans (ribcage & skull stacking) to get the Eye and leave the Cathedral without helping Brother Muru (crate stacking). But honestly - that's not "good design". That's an exploit, and while it sometimes feels awesome to break a game, it's not something designers should go for. From a designer point of view, this is _bad_. [2] [1] If you're talking strictly about the old rope arrow vs. the new rope arrow, then I could let this be. But if you're talking about in general, you are comparing an ocean and a kiddie pool and saying "the ocean's not really infinite therefore it's the same as the kiddie pool". [2] "Going where you shouldn't be" isn't a concept centered around noclip or some other exploit, it's part of the realm of stealth games - overhearing private conversations, peeking into forbidden places, and just generally seeing the world as if it doesn't really expect your presence. That feeling is just so diminished in the new Thief compared to the old games because of the mechanics in play, because of the limitations of the engine, and because of the design of the game in general. | ||
SirJolt
the Dagon Knight4011 Posts
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MagnuMizer
Denmark384 Posts
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CrazyF1r3f0x
United States2120 Posts
EDIT: also I really like stealth games, and want to get one of the original Thief games (cuz I'm cheap), what would you recommend out of the old thief games? | ||
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Deleted User 135096
3624 Posts
On March 03 2014 08:55 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: HTML is OP EDIT: also I really like stealth games, and want to get one of the original Thief games (cuz I'm cheap), what would you recommend out of the old thief games? For certain 1+2. You'd have to keep in mind they were made a good while ago, so like playing Half Life 1 they'll be a bit less technically complex. And the Dark Engine isn't the prettiest of things today. The gameplay and stories however are really something. My personal preference for the most compelling would be: 1. The Dark Project, 2. The Metal Age, and 3. Deadly Shadows (they are part of an arc, so if you like the first two the third is definitely worth getting). I'm probably a little different as a big chunk of people tend to prefer The Metal Age over The Dark Project, but both Thief 1+2 are stellar. Deadly Shadows is less good than the first two, but it's still a good experience. The Shalebridge Cradle as an example is an incredibly good level. Edit: also, if you do, get the patches as well (community section on gog). | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On March 01 2014 21:17 maartendq wrote: I honestly wish developers would focus more on new IPs instead of endlessly making sequels or reboots. 2013 already had plenty of AAA games that either scored way below par (i.e. below 85 on metacritic) or were released in (pre-)beta stage (Rome 2 and BF4 come to mind in this case), and 2014 will go the same route, by the looks of it. A new generation of consoles arrived a couple of months ago so it would be nice if we also got a new generation of games, instead of Call of Duty 10 or Assassin's creed 6. You know why they do it. With AAA games costing so much money, they don't want to take any risk, so they bring old IP because it's statistically better for sales results. | ||
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caznitch
Canada645 Posts
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caznitch
Canada645 Posts
On March 03 2014 09:17 wo1fwood wrote: For certain 1+2. You'd have to keep in mind they were made a good while ago, so like playing Half Life 1 they'll be a bit less technically complex. And the Dark Engine isn't the prettiest of things today. The gameplay and stories however are really something. My personal preference for the most compelling would be: 1. The Dark Project, 2. The Metal Age, and 3. Deadly Shadows (they are part of an arc, so if you like the first two the third is definitely worth getting). I'm probably a little different as a big chunk of people tend to prefer The Metal Age over The Dark Project, but both Thief 1+2 are stellar. Deadly Shadows is less good than the first two, but it's still a good experience. The Shalebridge Cradle as an example is an incredibly good level. Edit: also, if you do, get the patches as well (community section on gog). I'll second this. Some of the best storylines I've ever come across! | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
On March 03 2014 08:55 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: HTML is OP EDIT: also I really like stealth games, and want to get one of the original Thief games (cuz I'm cheap), what would you recommend out of the old thief games? It’s dangerous to go alone! Take this: http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140182 There are most likely other graphic overhauls, just do some google-fu and you'll find one that suits you. =) | ||
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