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ETisME
12889 Posts
Not saying it is bad, but on the ladder, if you lose to a cheesy guy and that's all between you and him. It's not like you two can really duke it out now that you know he can cheese and he knows that you are vulnerable to cheese. It just more or less feels like a waste of time. If it was a bo3 tournament format, it would be clever to add a cheese somewhere. but for a bo1, it just feels wrong for me | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
I feel you're approaching the subject from a perspective where you feel it shouldn't exist and you explain the fact that it does exist by making negative associations (lliterate twelve year old, child (for I can only assume he is one), my opponent being a narrow minded child), Welcome to the Internet we have socially inept people, your mind is warped towards the collective brain of the community). If you want to make a rational case don't demonise the other side of the argument. As a rational Starcraft player who has both been annoyed by and used cheese, I find your way of reasoning offensive. It implies I'm either childish, stupid, socially inept, a sheep, or all of the above because of an involuntary anger towards cheese. There's a lot of emphasis on blame, but little on realistic solutions to the negativity you adress. So why is cheese frowned upon and treated with such hostility, we've established that it's a strong stepping stone into macro play and for strong early game understanding. Answer one: We hate to have our plans messed up and we hate to lose. Answer two: Welcome to the Internet we have socially inept people. Answer three: The community has ingrained a deep hatred of cheese in everyone and nobody has ever addressed this. Answer three is the path I would like to take a look at: The root of the problem you talk about probably lies in one, people can get angry when they're fased by unexpected situations, especially in the early parts of the game where they've probably created guidelines and expectations for themselves. They can feel angry at themselves for not knowing what to do, not having any control, not living up to their own expectations, maybe even feeling betrayed by their opponent for using the "simplest" attacks in such a complex game. The fact that cheese has been ingrained in the Starcraft culture as "bad" doesn't prove that being angry with cheese is a hivemind behavior. If a large portion of players wasn't annoyed with early attacks, the term cheese wouldn't even have been gaming jargon. Defining cheese as morally reprehensible is in fact a very effective strategy to keep more players from using it (and making you uncomfortable and angry in the process). A purely rational look is pointless when dealing with emotional behaviour like anger. Emotional troubles can't be adressed by logic because they exist on different levels of communication (which admittedly becomes harder to recognize when there's only written text). Either move on from angry people or empathise with them, don't make things worse by responding rationally to their emotional information because it'll make them angrier for you not getting it. I've personally been through this in all ways possible, if I get angry and my opponent tells me I should play more safe, I'm going to get more angry because I don't care for rational solutions at that point, I just want him to acknowledge that I'm emotionally upset. On the flipside I've been angry with people who where then really understanding (responding to my emotional information, NOT the words I actually said) and I was immediately back to being myself and apologizing for being angry at them. Lets take an objective look, if we assume that you got two players with no prior knowledge of the community or strategies and told one to 6 pool would that player get upset for for any other reason than losing? If I'd be playing a new game and have units killing me within minutes not knowing how to play, I'd be pretty upset. No rush ... min is pretty common among people who are not involved with the professional scene of any RTS, not because they know what cheese is, but because they're frustrated for not getting a chance to play at their own pace and explore. Now imagine they find TeamLiquid looking for strategy determined not to lose so frustratingly again and find people labeling it cheese in a derogative way. What reason do they have not to 1.blend in by using the jargon, 2. acknowledge that it's really frustrating to lose to "cheese" by using it in a negative way. So why can Flash and Marineking get away with it buy Joe bloggs cannot? I would theorise that it's because of the conflicting message that puts us into our own mind again, the community says cheese is bad and Flash and Marineking are good thus the two cancel out and we get our own thoughts again. We like Flash and Marineking, so it's easier to explain their behaviour in a positive way, in contrast to unknown people on Bnet who we have no reason to like (or dislike, if you're positive). And even now there's plenty of people who would label Marineking as being a cheesy player (Flash is God, you don't judge God). PS. I honestly don't understand why there's no emotional education in schools! | ||
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CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
On October 11 2013 23:42 ETisME wrote: I don't like cheese because it means if I am not ready, then the opponent basically had a free win for the whole ~10 mins of building up and if I am ready, then I got a free win. Most of SC2 games end in one engagement at the end of the macro period anyway. You either waste 5-10 minutes in getting to that engagement in a cheesy game or 15-30 minutes in a macro game. Either way, if time is what you care about, the amount of time that occurs before the game-deciding engagement is wasted time. | ||
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Ephemera
United Kingdom66 Posts
There's one point you raise that I would disagree with, emotional behaviour can't be addressed by logic. I've had some troubles throughout my lifetime, some serious things have happened to me and the only coping mechanism I had was rationalising things. Maybe that's just because it's me internally dealing with my own emotional behaviour or I'm just strange  I would be the first person to admit that this post has some bias due to it being written after a bunch of abuse directed at me for cheesing, so it's not a purely objective view like I set out to do. (Damn emotion seeping into things  )I would agree that emotional and social behaviour should be addressed in schools for social ineptitude is on the rise. | ||
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Aelonius
Netherlands432 Posts
But nothing gets blood boiling than meeting 5-15 people in a row trying funky stuff. Most of the time I am angry because >I< fail to see it in time if I lose to it. If someone who cheeses then appears cocky or provocating in any sense then yes, they will get the full brunt of that boiling anger. | ||
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