• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 04:29
CET 10:29
KST 18:29
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Finals Preview: Sweet Victory!12[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror6[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5
Community News
Dark completes military service, returns to SC28[BSL23] RO16 Group Stage19Weekly Cups (Nov 2-8): herO back on top?2Weekly Cups (Oct 26 - Nov 1): MaxPax, herO, Solar win0Weekly Cups (October 19-25): Clem triples first in 5.0.175
StarCraft 2
General
No more SC2 streamers on team liquid? Dark completes military service, returns to SC2 Greetings.. Serral's getting trashed by New Catsle's Mind Weekly Cups (Nov 2-8): herO back on top?
Tourneys
Dark returns! GSL CK #7 4v4 Team Battle (Nov 19) Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) soO & FanTaSy return! SC2 Kevin Scrim 4v4 (Nov 16) RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22 Tasteless Time Warp: SC Evo Showmatch (May 25)
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[G] How to playtest arcade maps Starcraft 2 Advance [D] the control group Simple Questions/Answers
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 551 Robotic Revival Mutation # 550 Graveyard Shift Mutation # 549 Endless Sparkles
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion List of top players active on ShieldBattery Recommended BW Settings for Mouse and Video Starcraft:Brood War Discord Servers [BSL23] RO16 Group Stage
Tourneys
Bisu's Team vs Shuttle's Team 2026-11-14 2v2v2v2 Tournament Stage 1: Community Poll [BSL23] Ro16 Group C - Sunday 21:00 CET Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Pluto's TvP 5Marine 2Medic Push Infested Terran strategies in 2026 Nuke strategy worked in K-League 2026-11-09
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Free Space RTS Game, optimised f. Phone/Tablet etc List of Game Threads The PlayStation 5
Dota 2
Can Game Data Analytics Help Players Improvements
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Trading/Investing Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Dating: How's your luck?
Fan Clubs
Fan Club Resource Thread Reynor Fan Club The Flash Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece
Sports
TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Football (Soccer) Thread MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
The time I organised my…
AssyrianKing
Why I built Repalyzer (1.1.…
BlueStar
Innovate or Game Over?
TrAiDoS
ShieldBattery on Mac
Kraekkling
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 11787 users

A widow mine out of position

Blogs > SiskosGoatee
Post a Reply
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
September 23 2013 00:14 GMT
#1
Disclaimer: This is not a balance discourse, this is a design disource. I will however come honest by saying that I think biomine is currently slightly overpowered. This is not what this is about though.

Many people have pointed out that there is no reason to go tank/marine or mech in TvZ any more. Biomine seems to largely combine the mobility of MMM with the cost effectivenes of tank/marine. Before HotS there were 4 broad styles of TvZ available. MMM, tank/marine and mech. Being sequentially less mobile but more cost efficient and also less aggressive and more defensive style. All these three style have all but vanished from the face of the earth now because biomine is simply far more optimal than any of them.

At one point in the beta when mines were not that popular because people had the silly idea of using them outside of their army rather than just an army unit. A particular balance change saw te light of day:


Hots Beta balance Patch #19
Unburrowed Widow Mine attack priority decreased to 19, down from 20.
Burrowed Widow Mine attack priority remains unchanged.


Back then, I didn't realize how awful this idea is and what the implications of it are, the implications are simple, unlike with tank/marine. You aren't being punished for being caught out of position with mines because units do not attack them above ground. Unless you're Captain Zerus with all Jaedong's, Life's and DRG's powers combined. You can't realistically ask Zergs to focus down the mine with melee zerglings, it's just not doable. It actually doesn't matter all that much if the mines are already burrowed when Z runs in or are starting to burrow as Z runs in unlike with siege tanks.

Why? Because Siege tanks are best used when they can benefit from their gargantuan range. If Z can approach the T army without having first taken a volley of tank shots before theyt even get close, the engagement will go significantly worse for Terran. Furthermore, tanks have a minimum range so if Z can press close up to the tanks they aren't doing anything at all.

Added to that, mines have a very long cooldown. So if you start firing your first shot later you're not actually doing less damage during the entire fight, you just start doing damage later. Sure, it's sligtly less optimal to only have your mines burrowing as Z runs in, but it doesn't make the world of difference it does with tanks. By adding an extra unit in HotS, TvZ has been bereft of more options, rather than giving more. Because this one unit combines all the strengths of all the other styles into one. The cost effectiveness of tanks without being punished for being caught not set up and the mobility of bio.

In my ideal HotS TvZ, there would be four styles viable on a gradation of mobility vs cost effectiveness:

- MMM
- Biomine
- Biotank
- Mech

One, or at least I, would hope that at one point a patch comes which makes it that mines being caught unburrowed are actually punished for it significantly. On a side note, it's also why I think that drilling claws is an awful upgrade. What's the use of a setup unit if it sets up instantly? Wouldn't mind at all if mines did more damage but as a tradeof actually took considerable time to set up and had normal attack priority above ground.

***
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
Th1rdEye
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States1074 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-23 01:44:52
September 23 2013 01:40 GMT
#2
Pretty lame that the metagame boils down to one style of play. And yeah, I agree that targeting widow mines above ground is nearly impossible. Sure you can snipe a few here and there with mutas, and pick a few leading ones off, but none ever die unless you target them. Therefore, if you misclick or dont target them, they burrow and end up wiping out the tail end of your army anyway

Hope i didn't misread what you're trying to say.

from the days of: TheMarine [NC]...YellOw [H.O.T.]-Forever99 OgOgO [_MuMyung_] ChRh PlayGrrrr.... SlayerS_`BoxeR` [Oops]Reach [ReD]NaDa [DF]zergboy..!! Pusan[S.G] Nal_rA GARIMTO SSamJJang ChoJJa JinSu Silent_Control iloveoov H_PauL_WII JulyZerg [DaK]JoYo
bypLy
Profile Joined June 2013
757 Posts
September 23 2013 01:56 GMT
#3
great analysis
docvoc
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States5491 Posts
September 23 2013 14:53 GMT
#4
I actually pretty much agree with this, but I don't know what to say in response. Making mines have the same priority doesn't make very much sense since the army is seriously weak without it and the units do not pose the same risk above ground as they do below. However, I see your point and this is a great peice. I think that overall mines will get balanced or stay the same but the meta will change. Eventually the meta will get revolutionized, we just need a revolutionist .
User was warned for too many mimes.
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
September 23 2013 15:49 GMT
#5
On September 23 2013 23:53 docvoc wrote:
I actually pretty much agree with this, but I don't know what to say in response. Making mines have the same priority doesn't make very much sense since the army is seriously weak without it and the units do not pose the same risk above ground as they do below. However, I see your point and this is a great peice. I think that overall mines will get balanced or stay the same but the meta will change. Eventually the meta will get revolutionized, we just need a revolutionist .
Well, same logic applies to tanks. You just have to siege/unburrow before the engagement.

Like I said, there's not really a great thing to setup units if you aren't punished for them not being set up.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
larse
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
1611 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-26 21:21:52
September 26 2013 21:19 GMT
#6
It won't help.

In most engagements, the mines are burrowed.

Raising the attack priority will not change this at all.
ComaDose
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Canada10357 Posts
September 26 2013 21:31 GMT
#7
can you make a wall of unburrowed mines on a ramp and stand marines behind it and the lings will freak out trying to get to the marines?
BW pros training sc2 is like kiss making a dub step album.
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
September 26 2013 22:39 GMT
#8
On September 27 2013 06:19 larse wrote:
It won't help.

In most engagements, the mines are burrowed.

Raising the attack priority will not change this at all.
So? Terran isn't supposed to be punished for burrowingf on time? Are you reading, this is a design discussion, not a balance discussion.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 31m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ProTech152
StarCraft: Brood War
Horang2 18333
Shuttle 7494
Rain 1962
BeSt 810
Hyuk 505
Jaedong 266
Larva 214
Killer 169
FanTaSy 141
Pusan 126
[ Show more ]
Zeus 94
actioN 82
Mind 80
Mong 58
Bale 58
Hm[arnc] 31
Creator 27
Sharp 23
NaDa 22
ZergMaN 20
Sacsri 17
Noble 11
sOs 11
yabsab 10
League of Legends
JimRising 484
Counter-Strike
fl0m3841
kennyS483
SPUNJ239
Other Games
summit1g11572
Lowko208
Sick156
NeuroSwarm96
ViBE48
[ Show 8 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Upcoming Events
CranKy Ducklings
31m
WardiTV Invitational
2h 31m
ByuN vs SHIN
MaxPax vs Solar
Clem vs TBD
herO vs TBD
Lambo vs TBD
Rogue vs TBD
IPSL
7h 31m
TerrOr vs IJ_Terran
rasowy vs Hazorath
BSL
10h 31m
TerrOr vs OyAji
UltrA vs Gosudark
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d
WardiTV Invitational
1d 2h
IPSL
1d 7h
Art_Of_Turtle vs KameZerg
Radley vs George
BSL
1d 10h
Artosis vs Dewalt
Ret vs Tech
SOOP
2 days
WardiTV Weekly
2 days
[ Show More ]
Monday Night Weeklies
3 days
PiGosaur Cup
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
GSL
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
KCM Race Survival
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-11-12
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HCC Season 3

Ongoing

Acropolis #5
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
International ShieldBattery League
Individual League
BSL Season 23
IPSL Winter 2026-27
Calamity Cup Div. A Season 8
Underdog Cup 2026 Div 2-3
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026

Upcoming

YSL S4
Sector 591
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
StarCraft2 Weekly Open Tournament 2026 Grand Finals
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
IEM Kraków 2027
PGL Bucharest 2027
BLAST Bounty Winter 2027
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.