• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 05:37
CEST 11:37
KST 18:37
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy8[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters10[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call8[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End9
Community News
Weekly Cups (Sep 13-20): herO scores triple1BSL Season 235Weekly Cups (Sep 7-12): SHIN, ByuN, MaxPax double down1StarCraft open world shooter announced at BlizzCon101Weekly Cups (Aug 30-Sep 7): herO thrives amid growing schism10
StarCraft 2
General
Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) How do you feel about the StarCraft shooter announcement at BlizzCon 2026? Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool The Death of Cheese: From a Professional Cheeser Weekly Cups (Sep 13-20): herO scores triple
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament 2026 GSTL Announcement RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22 SC2 AI Tournament 2026 Fall
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
Mutation # 544 Double Trouble The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 543 Enhanced Defenses Mutation # 542 The Ascended
Brood War
General
Guide To Watching Ancient Brood War Replays Bot on ladder [ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy Oldest replay file. new ranked ladder hack?
Tourneys
[ASL22] Ro16 Group D [ASL22] Ro8 Day 2 [ASL22] Ro8 Day 1 [IPSL] IPSL is Back With Winter 26-27!
Strategy
Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Replay Review Process - What do you do? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation
Other Games
General Games
Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread EVE Corporation Diablo IV
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25! Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Artificial Intelligence Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine All you football fans (soccer)! Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The Creator Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Diablo Animated Series on Netflix
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Gaming Intensity, Problemati…
TrAiDoS
38 yo Retired SWE loo…
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
[meme] I finally understa…
LUCKY_NOOB
Regacy Esports:Our Goa…
regacyesports
Dreaming of BW patches (mod…
c3rberUs
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 9506 users

A widow mine out of position

Blogs > SiskosGoatee
Post a Reply
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
September 23 2013 00:14 GMT
#1
Disclaimer: This is not a balance discourse, this is a design disource. I will however come honest by saying that I think biomine is currently slightly overpowered. This is not what this is about though.

Many people have pointed out that there is no reason to go tank/marine or mech in TvZ any more. Biomine seems to largely combine the mobility of MMM with the cost effectivenes of tank/marine. Before HotS there were 4 broad styles of TvZ available. MMM, tank/marine and mech. Being sequentially less mobile but more cost efficient and also less aggressive and more defensive style. All these three style have all but vanished from the face of the earth now because biomine is simply far more optimal than any of them.

At one point in the beta when mines were not that popular because people had the silly idea of using them outside of their army rather than just an army unit. A particular balance change saw te light of day:


Hots Beta balance Patch #19
Unburrowed Widow Mine attack priority decreased to 19, down from 20.
Burrowed Widow Mine attack priority remains unchanged.


Back then, I didn't realize how awful this idea is and what the implications of it are, the implications are simple, unlike with tank/marine. You aren't being punished for being caught out of position with mines because units do not attack them above ground. Unless you're Captain Zerus with all Jaedong's, Life's and DRG's powers combined. You can't realistically ask Zergs to focus down the mine with melee zerglings, it's just not doable. It actually doesn't matter all that much if the mines are already burrowed when Z runs in or are starting to burrow as Z runs in unlike with siege tanks.

Why? Because Siege tanks are best used when they can benefit from their gargantuan range. If Z can approach the T army without having first taken a volley of tank shots before theyt even get close, the engagement will go significantly worse for Terran. Furthermore, tanks have a minimum range so if Z can press close up to the tanks they aren't doing anything at all.

Added to that, mines have a very long cooldown. So if you start firing your first shot later you're not actually doing less damage during the entire fight, you just start doing damage later. Sure, it's sligtly less optimal to only have your mines burrowing as Z runs in, but it doesn't make the world of difference it does with tanks. By adding an extra unit in HotS, TvZ has been bereft of more options, rather than giving more. Because this one unit combines all the strengths of all the other styles into one. The cost effectiveness of tanks without being punished for being caught not set up and the mobility of bio.

In my ideal HotS TvZ, there would be four styles viable on a gradation of mobility vs cost effectiveness:

- MMM
- Biomine
- Biotank
- Mech

One, or at least I, would hope that at one point a patch comes which makes it that mines being caught unburrowed are actually punished for it significantly. On a side note, it's also why I think that drilling claws is an awful upgrade. What's the use of a setup unit if it sets up instantly? Wouldn't mind at all if mines did more damage but as a tradeof actually took considerable time to set up and had normal attack priority above ground.

***
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
Th1rdEye
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States1074 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-23 01:44:52
September 23 2013 01:40 GMT
#2
Pretty lame that the metagame boils down to one style of play. And yeah, I agree that targeting widow mines above ground is nearly impossible. Sure you can snipe a few here and there with mutas, and pick a few leading ones off, but none ever die unless you target them. Therefore, if you misclick or dont target them, they burrow and end up wiping out the tail end of your army anyway

Hope i didn't misread what you're trying to say.

from the days of: TheMarine [NC]...YellOw [H.O.T.]-Forever99 OgOgO [_MuMyung_] ChRh PlayGrrrr.... SlayerS_`BoxeR` [Oops]Reach [ReD]NaDa [DF]zergboy..!! Pusan[S.G] Nal_rA GARIMTO SSamJJang ChoJJa JinSu Silent_Control iloveoov H_PauL_WII JulyZerg [DaK]JoYo
bypLy
Profile Joined June 2013
757 Posts
September 23 2013 01:56 GMT
#3
great analysis
docvoc
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States5491 Posts
September 23 2013 14:53 GMT
#4
I actually pretty much agree with this, but I don't know what to say in response. Making mines have the same priority doesn't make very much sense since the army is seriously weak without it and the units do not pose the same risk above ground as they do below. However, I see your point and this is a great peice. I think that overall mines will get balanced or stay the same but the meta will change. Eventually the meta will get revolutionized, we just need a revolutionist .
User was warned for too many mimes.
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
September 23 2013 15:49 GMT
#5
On September 23 2013 23:53 docvoc wrote:
I actually pretty much agree with this, but I don't know what to say in response. Making mines have the same priority doesn't make very much sense since the army is seriously weak without it and the units do not pose the same risk above ground as they do below. However, I see your point and this is a great peice. I think that overall mines will get balanced or stay the same but the meta will change. Eventually the meta will get revolutionized, we just need a revolutionist .
Well, same logic applies to tanks. You just have to siege/unburrow before the engagement.

Like I said, there's not really a great thing to setup units if you aren't punished for them not being set up.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
larse
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
1611 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-26 21:21:52
September 26 2013 21:19 GMT
#6
It won't help.

In most engagements, the mines are burrowed.

Raising the attack priority will not change this at all.
ComaDose
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Canada10357 Posts
September 26 2013 21:31 GMT
#7
can you make a wall of unburrowed mines on a ramp and stand marines behind it and the lings will freak out trying to get to the marines?
BW pros training sc2 is like kiss making a dub step album.
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
September 26 2013 22:39 GMT
#8
On September 27 2013 06:19 larse wrote:
It won't help.

In most engagements, the mines are burrowed.

Raising the attack priority will not change this at all.
So? Terran isn't supposed to be punished for burrowingf on time? Are you reading, this is a design discussion, not a balance discussion.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 24m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Lowko118
SHIN 12
StarCraft: Brood War
Rain 2012
Bisu 794
Zeus 313
Larva 272
Hyuk 226
hero 176
Leta 147
Stork 116
Sexy 81
Killer 56
[ Show more ]
Shinee 44
ToSsGirL 38
Hm[arnc] 29
soO 29
zelot 14
ajuk12(nOOB) 11
JulyZerg 8
Noble 8
Dota 2
Gorgc4045
XaKoH 423
League of Legends
JimRising 371
Counter-Strike
olofmeister1532
shoxiejesuss907
kRYSTAL_62
Heroes of the Storm
Trikslyr29
Other Games
ceh9581
singsing395
Livibee114
Mew2King49
Pyrionflax27
amsayoshi20
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream7063
PGL Dota 2 - Secondary Stream2223
Other Games
gamesdonequick576
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• LUISG 38
• mYiSmile17
• Letter143
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Stunt449
Other Games
• WagamamaTV72
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
24m
Afreeca Starleague
24m
Light vs EffOrt
OSC
2h 24m
PiGosaur Cup
14h 24m
Kung Fu Cup
1d 1h
The PondCast
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
Korean StarCraft League
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
4 days
GSL
4 days
[ Show More ]
Yamato Cup
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Afreeca Starleague
6 days
WardiTV Weekly
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Super Anchor Qualifying S3
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1

Ongoing

ASL Season 22
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5
Acropolis #5 - GSA
Calamity Invitational
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026

Upcoming

Acropolis #5 - GSB
Acropolis #5 - GSC
BSL Season 23
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Copium Cup
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.