• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 08:35
CEST 14:35
KST 21:35
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2914Serral wins Maestros of the Game 243ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12
Community News
IntoTheTV X SOOP SC2 League : Weekly & Monthly4Clem: "I don't have that much hope in Blizzard"2ZeroSpace Early Access is Now Live!28Weekly Cups (July 13-19): Terran & Protoss rise; Zerg falters2Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16)91
StarCraft 2
General
Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) How would you feel about frequent/monthly balance patches for SC2? Reynor: GSL Loss Wasn't About Preparation Format What's the best tug of war? Clem: "I don't have that much hope in Blizzard"
Tourneys
PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August) RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event IntoTheTV X SOOP SC2 League : Weekly & Monthly INu's Battles#18 - Cure, herO, Rogue & ByuN Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2)
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Industrial Park New Map Maker - Looking for Advice - Love or Hate
External Content
Mutation # 535 Assembly of Vengeance The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 534 Burning Evacuation Mutation # 533 Die Together
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion Recent recommended BW games screpdb: new Starcraft reporting tool ASL22 General Discussion
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues Star Con San Diego 2026 BSL LAN Party - Kraków 29-30 August - OPEN SIGNUPS Escore Tournament - Season 3
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers PvT advise for noobs Fighting Spirit mining rates Creating a full chart of Zerg builds
Other Games
General Games
ZeroSpace Early Access is Now Live! General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile Diablo IV
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Artificial Intelligence Thread US Politics Mega-thread How to buy a book - shipping from Korea to Europe
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club The HerO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread Series you have seen recently... [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread 2026-27 Football Thread placeholder TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop
TL Community
Northern Ireland Global Starcraft The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Games, Hormones, and "Dark" …
TrAiDoS
Hello guys!
LIN1s
ASL S22 English Commentary…
namkraft
Poker (part 2)
Nebuchad
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 15911 users

A widow mine out of position

Blogs > SiskosGoatee
Post a Reply
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
September 23 2013 00:14 GMT
#1
Disclaimer: This is not a balance discourse, this is a design disource. I will however come honest by saying that I think biomine is currently slightly overpowered. This is not what this is about though.

Many people have pointed out that there is no reason to go tank/marine or mech in TvZ any more. Biomine seems to largely combine the mobility of MMM with the cost effectivenes of tank/marine. Before HotS there were 4 broad styles of TvZ available. MMM, tank/marine and mech. Being sequentially less mobile but more cost efficient and also less aggressive and more defensive style. All these three style have all but vanished from the face of the earth now because biomine is simply far more optimal than any of them.

At one point in the beta when mines were not that popular because people had the silly idea of using them outside of their army rather than just an army unit. A particular balance change saw te light of day:


Hots Beta balance Patch #19
Unburrowed Widow Mine attack priority decreased to 19, down from 20.
Burrowed Widow Mine attack priority remains unchanged.


Back then, I didn't realize how awful this idea is and what the implications of it are, the implications are simple, unlike with tank/marine. You aren't being punished for being caught out of position with mines because units do not attack them above ground. Unless you're Captain Zerus with all Jaedong's, Life's and DRG's powers combined. You can't realistically ask Zergs to focus down the mine with melee zerglings, it's just not doable. It actually doesn't matter all that much if the mines are already burrowed when Z runs in or are starting to burrow as Z runs in unlike with siege tanks.

Why? Because Siege tanks are best used when they can benefit from their gargantuan range. If Z can approach the T army without having first taken a volley of tank shots before theyt even get close, the engagement will go significantly worse for Terran. Furthermore, tanks have a minimum range so if Z can press close up to the tanks they aren't doing anything at all.

Added to that, mines have a very long cooldown. So if you start firing your first shot later you're not actually doing less damage during the entire fight, you just start doing damage later. Sure, it's sligtly less optimal to only have your mines burrowing as Z runs in, but it doesn't make the world of difference it does with tanks. By adding an extra unit in HotS, TvZ has been bereft of more options, rather than giving more. Because this one unit combines all the strengths of all the other styles into one. The cost effectiveness of tanks without being punished for being caught not set up and the mobility of bio.

In my ideal HotS TvZ, there would be four styles viable on a gradation of mobility vs cost effectiveness:

- MMM
- Biomine
- Biotank
- Mech

One, or at least I, would hope that at one point a patch comes which makes it that mines being caught unburrowed are actually punished for it significantly. On a side note, it's also why I think that drilling claws is an awful upgrade. What's the use of a setup unit if it sets up instantly? Wouldn't mind at all if mines did more damage but as a tradeof actually took considerable time to set up and had normal attack priority above ground.

***
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
Th1rdEye
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States1074 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-23 01:44:52
September 23 2013 01:40 GMT
#2
Pretty lame that the metagame boils down to one style of play. And yeah, I agree that targeting widow mines above ground is nearly impossible. Sure you can snipe a few here and there with mutas, and pick a few leading ones off, but none ever die unless you target them. Therefore, if you misclick or dont target them, they burrow and end up wiping out the tail end of your army anyway

Hope i didn't misread what you're trying to say.

from the days of: TheMarine [NC]...YellOw [H.O.T.]-Forever99 OgOgO [_MuMyung_] ChRh PlayGrrrr.... SlayerS_`BoxeR` [Oops]Reach [ReD]NaDa [DF]zergboy..!! Pusan[S.G] Nal_rA GARIMTO SSamJJang ChoJJa JinSu Silent_Control iloveoov H_PauL_WII JulyZerg [DaK]JoYo
bypLy
Profile Joined June 2013
757 Posts
September 23 2013 01:56 GMT
#3
great analysis
docvoc
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States5491 Posts
September 23 2013 14:53 GMT
#4
I actually pretty much agree with this, but I don't know what to say in response. Making mines have the same priority doesn't make very much sense since the army is seriously weak without it and the units do not pose the same risk above ground as they do below. However, I see your point and this is a great peice. I think that overall mines will get balanced or stay the same but the meta will change. Eventually the meta will get revolutionized, we just need a revolutionist .
User was warned for too many mimes.
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
September 23 2013 15:49 GMT
#5
On September 23 2013 23:53 docvoc wrote:
I actually pretty much agree with this, but I don't know what to say in response. Making mines have the same priority doesn't make very much sense since the army is seriously weak without it and the units do not pose the same risk above ground as they do below. However, I see your point and this is a great peice. I think that overall mines will get balanced or stay the same but the meta will change. Eventually the meta will get revolutionized, we just need a revolutionist .
Well, same logic applies to tanks. You just have to siege/unburrow before the engagement.

Like I said, there's not really a great thing to setup units if you aren't punished for them not being set up.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
larse
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
1611 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-26 21:21:52
September 26 2013 21:19 GMT
#6
It won't help.

In most engagements, the mines are burrowed.

Raising the attack priority will not change this at all.
ComaDose
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Canada10357 Posts
September 26 2013 21:31 GMT
#7
can you make a wall of unburrowed mines on a ramp and stand marines behind it and the lings will freak out trying to get to the marines?
BW pros training sc2 is like kiss making a dub step album.
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
September 26 2013 22:39 GMT
#8
On September 27 2013 06:19 larse wrote:
It won't help.

In most engagements, the mines are burrowed.

Raising the attack priority will not change this at all.
So? Terran isn't supposed to be punished for burrowingf on time? Are you reading, this is a design discussion, not a balance discussion.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
12:00
King of the Hill #256
WardiTV499
EmpressLilyy37
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
IndyStarCraft 343
Rex 123
StarCraft: Brood War
Rain 5101
Shuttle 1442
Mini 747
EffOrt 623
Soma 400
BeSt 370
Light 250
Stork 214
Larva 203
Last 171
[ Show more ]
actioN 170
JYJ 160
hero 99
Free 77
ZerO 72
Dewaltoss 61
ToSsGirL 48
Sharp 47
Sea.KH 45
sSak 31
Sexy 31
Sacsri 25
soO 24
HiyA 20
Barracks 16
yabsab 14
Shine 11
zelot 9
Rock 9
firebathero 0
Dota 2
Gorgc3480
Dendi1112
Fuzer 175
syndereN166
febbydoto29
Counter-Strike
fl0m2084
FalleN 874
byalli780
x6flipin468
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King129
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor267
Other Games
gofns12679
singsing1779
B2W.Neo1228
DeMusliM256
ToD76
XcaliburYe68
ZerO(Twitch)21
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 14
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 75
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV555
League of Legends
• Jankos1356
Upcoming Events
Online Event
2h 26m
WardiTV Weekly
22h 26m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 21h
INu's Battles
1d 22h
Cure vs herO
ByuN vs Rogue
PiGosaur Cup
2 days
The PondCast
2 days
Kung Fu Cup
2 days
Patches Events
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
CrankTV Team League
3 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
4 days
CrankTV Team League
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Afreeca Starleague
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
ByuN vs SHIN
Solar vs Lambo
WardiTV Summer Champion…
5 days
Afreeca Starleague
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Clem vs Serral
herO vs Rogue
WardiTV Summer Champion…
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

ASL S22 SEASON OPEN Day 2
HSC XXIX
Eternal Conflict S2 E3

Ongoing

CSL 2026 Summer (S21)
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
RSL Revival: Season 6
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
SCTL 2026 Spring
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S3: W5
ASL Season 22: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 22: Qualifier #2
Acropolis #5
CSLAN 4
ASL Season 22
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
Light Tournament 2026
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
Logitech G Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.