• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 08:09
CEST 14:09
KST 21:09
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver4[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters10[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call8[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End9Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915
Community News
Weekly Cups (Sep 7-12): SHIN, ByuN, MaxPax double down0StarCraft open world shooter announced at BlizzCon98Weekly Cups (Aug 30-Sep 7): herO thrives amid growing schism10Official StarCraft website teases new content ahead of BlizzCon?178Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20)9
StarCraft 2
General
How do you feel about the StarCraft shooter announcement at BlizzCon 2026? StarCraft open world shooter announced at BlizzCon Weekly Cups (Sep 7-12): SHIN, ByuN, MaxPax double down Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool
Tourneys
RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22 SC2 AI Tournament 2026 Fall Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament KSL Week #92
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
Mutation # 543 Enhanced Defenses The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 542 The Ascended Mutation # 541 Binary Choice
Brood War
General
Official StarCraft website teases new content ahead of BlizzCon? New 3v3 BGH Ladder (and more) on ShieldBattery! [D] Brainstorming a balance patch for Brood war Making an Online Broodwar Manager Game [ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver
Tourneys
[ASL22] Ro16 Group D [ASL22] Ro16 Group C [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL22] Ro16 Group B
Strategy
Replay Review Process - What do you do? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Game Theory for Starcraft
Other Games
General Games
Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread EVE Corporation Diablo IV
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Artificial Intelligence Thread UK Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The Creator Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Diablo Animated Series on Netflix
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
Virtual Romance, Real-Life C…
TrAiDoS
Regacy Esports:Our Goa…
regacyesports
Dreaming of BW patches (mod…
c3rberUs
LOCKPICKING NOOB
LUCKY_NOOB
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 9197 users

A widow mine out of position

Blogs > SiskosGoatee
Post a Reply
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
September 23 2013 00:14 GMT
#1
Disclaimer: This is not a balance discourse, this is a design disource. I will however come honest by saying that I think biomine is currently slightly overpowered. This is not what this is about though.

Many people have pointed out that there is no reason to go tank/marine or mech in TvZ any more. Biomine seems to largely combine the mobility of MMM with the cost effectivenes of tank/marine. Before HotS there were 4 broad styles of TvZ available. MMM, tank/marine and mech. Being sequentially less mobile but more cost efficient and also less aggressive and more defensive style. All these three style have all but vanished from the face of the earth now because biomine is simply far more optimal than any of them.

At one point in the beta when mines were not that popular because people had the silly idea of using them outside of their army rather than just an army unit. A particular balance change saw te light of day:


Hots Beta balance Patch #19
Unburrowed Widow Mine attack priority decreased to 19, down from 20.
Burrowed Widow Mine attack priority remains unchanged.


Back then, I didn't realize how awful this idea is and what the implications of it are, the implications are simple, unlike with tank/marine. You aren't being punished for being caught out of position with mines because units do not attack them above ground. Unless you're Captain Zerus with all Jaedong's, Life's and DRG's powers combined. You can't realistically ask Zergs to focus down the mine with melee zerglings, it's just not doable. It actually doesn't matter all that much if the mines are already burrowed when Z runs in or are starting to burrow as Z runs in unlike with siege tanks.

Why? Because Siege tanks are best used when they can benefit from their gargantuan range. If Z can approach the T army without having first taken a volley of tank shots before theyt even get close, the engagement will go significantly worse for Terran. Furthermore, tanks have a minimum range so if Z can press close up to the tanks they aren't doing anything at all.

Added to that, mines have a very long cooldown. So if you start firing your first shot later you're not actually doing less damage during the entire fight, you just start doing damage later. Sure, it's sligtly less optimal to only have your mines burrowing as Z runs in, but it doesn't make the world of difference it does with tanks. By adding an extra unit in HotS, TvZ has been bereft of more options, rather than giving more. Because this one unit combines all the strengths of all the other styles into one. The cost effectiveness of tanks without being punished for being caught not set up and the mobility of bio.

In my ideal HotS TvZ, there would be four styles viable on a gradation of mobility vs cost effectiveness:

- MMM
- Biomine
- Biotank
- Mech

One, or at least I, would hope that at one point a patch comes which makes it that mines being caught unburrowed are actually punished for it significantly. On a side note, it's also why I think that drilling claws is an awful upgrade. What's the use of a setup unit if it sets up instantly? Wouldn't mind at all if mines did more damage but as a tradeof actually took considerable time to set up and had normal attack priority above ground.

***
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
Th1rdEye
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States1074 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-23 01:44:52
September 23 2013 01:40 GMT
#2
Pretty lame that the metagame boils down to one style of play. And yeah, I agree that targeting widow mines above ground is nearly impossible. Sure you can snipe a few here and there with mutas, and pick a few leading ones off, but none ever die unless you target them. Therefore, if you misclick or dont target them, they burrow and end up wiping out the tail end of your army anyway

Hope i didn't misread what you're trying to say.

from the days of: TheMarine [NC]...YellOw [H.O.T.]-Forever99 OgOgO [_MuMyung_] ChRh PlayGrrrr.... SlayerS_`BoxeR` [Oops]Reach [ReD]NaDa [DF]zergboy..!! Pusan[S.G] Nal_rA GARIMTO SSamJJang ChoJJa JinSu Silent_Control iloveoov H_PauL_WII JulyZerg [DaK]JoYo
bypLy
Profile Joined June 2013
757 Posts
September 23 2013 01:56 GMT
#3
great analysis
docvoc
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States5491 Posts
September 23 2013 14:53 GMT
#4
I actually pretty much agree with this, but I don't know what to say in response. Making mines have the same priority doesn't make very much sense since the army is seriously weak without it and the units do not pose the same risk above ground as they do below. However, I see your point and this is a great peice. I think that overall mines will get balanced or stay the same but the meta will change. Eventually the meta will get revolutionized, we just need a revolutionist .
User was warned for too many mimes.
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
September 23 2013 15:49 GMT
#5
On September 23 2013 23:53 docvoc wrote:
I actually pretty much agree with this, but I don't know what to say in response. Making mines have the same priority doesn't make very much sense since the army is seriously weak without it and the units do not pose the same risk above ground as they do below. However, I see your point and this is a great peice. I think that overall mines will get balanced or stay the same but the meta will change. Eventually the meta will get revolutionized, we just need a revolutionist .
Well, same logic applies to tanks. You just have to siege/unburrow before the engagement.

Like I said, there's not really a great thing to setup units if you aren't punished for them not being set up.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
larse
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
1611 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-26 21:21:52
September 26 2013 21:19 GMT
#6
It won't help.

In most engagements, the mines are burrowed.

Raising the attack priority will not change this at all.
ComaDose
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Canada10357 Posts
September 26 2013 21:31 GMT
#7
can you make a wall of unburrowed mines on a ramp and stand marines behind it and the lings will freak out trying to get to the marines?
BW pros training sc2 is like kiss making a dub step album.
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
September 26 2013 22:39 GMT
#8
On September 27 2013 06:19 larse wrote:
It won't help.

In most engagements, the mines are burrowed.

Raising the attack priority will not change this at all.
So? Terran isn't supposed to be punished for burrowingf on time? Are you reading, this is a design discussion, not a balance discussion.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
GSL
11:00
2026 GSTL: Wild Card
IntoTheiNu 613
CranKy Ducklings SOOP62
Classic 60
ByuN (SOOP) 57
Rex27
Solar (SOOP)5
LiquipediaDiscussion
Afreeca Starleague
10:00
Ro16, Group D
Snow vs Shinee
Shine vs EffOrt
Afreeca ASL 13884
StarCastTV_EN404
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Classic 60
ByuN (SOOP) 57
Rex 27
Solar (SOOP) 5
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 14222
Bisu 6538
Jaedong 3090
Leta 1376
BeSt 1322
Horang2 1005
Pusan 467
Mini 467
Light 430
Hyuk 392
[ Show more ]
Soulkey 381
Hyun 328
ZerO 261
Zeus 230
Larva 183
Stork 175
actioN 158
firebathero 145
Rush 138
Barracks 125
ggaemo 124
ToSsGirL 61
PianO 58
JYJ 45
Sea.KH 40
soO 36
Yoon 35
Killer 30
sSak 26
Sexy 25
Bale 24
Terrorterran 22
SilentControl 18
Shine 17
Sacsri 14
Hm[arnc] 13
HiyA 12
sorry 12
Noble 11
JulyZerg 10
scan(afreeca) 10
Icarus 1
Britney 0
Dota 2
Dendi1007
League of Legends
Reynor55
Counter-Strike
olofmeister1565
byalli1277
x6flipin415
zeus341
kRYSTAL_134
edward44
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King108
Other Games
Grubby7406
singsing2397
Lowko318
Pyrionflax160
Liquid`LucifroN128
DeMusliM98
hiko15
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick735
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 252
Other Games
BasetradeTV55
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 10
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 72
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 12
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV386
League of Legends
• Jankos2319
• TFBlade785
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Cup
11h 51m
The PondCast
21h 51m
Kung Fu Cup
22h 51m
Replay Cast
1d 11h
KCM Race Survival
1d 21h
IntoTheTV X SOOP
1d 22h
Replay Cast
2 days
IntoTheTV X SOOP
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
GSL
3 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
4 days
GSL
4 days
Shopify Rebellion Sundays
5 days
Spirit vs Mixu
Replay Cast
5 days
WardiTV Weekly
5 days
Monday Night Weeklies
6 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-09-14
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5
Calamity Invitational
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026

Upcoming

Acropolis #5 - GSA
Acropolis #5 - GSB
Acropolis #5 - GSC
SC4ALL II: Brood War
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Copium Cup
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.