• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 17:05
CET 23:05
KST 07:05
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career !2Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win2Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump1Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced15
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career ! Did they add GM to 2v2? RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship StarCraft2.fi 15th Anniversary Cup RSL Offline Finals Info - Dec 13 and 14! Tenacious Turtle Tussle
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 504 Retribution Mutation # 503 Fowl Play Mutation # 502 Negative Reinforcement Mutation # 501 Price of Progress
Brood War
General
How Rain Became ProGamer in Just 3 Months FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle [BSL21] RO8 Bracket & Prediction Contest BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] RO8 - Day 2 - Sunday 21:00 CET [ASL20] Grand Finals [BSL21] RO8 - Day 1 - Saturday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Current Meta Game Theory for Starcraft Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread PC Games Sales Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Dawn of War IV
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Survivor II: The Amazon Sengoku Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine YouTube Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TL+ Announced Where to ask questions and add stream?
Blogs
How Sleep Deprivation Affect…
TrAiDoS
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 937 users

A widow mine out of position

Blogs > SiskosGoatee
Post a Reply
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
September 23 2013 00:14 GMT
#1
Disclaimer: This is not a balance discourse, this is a design disource. I will however come honest by saying that I think biomine is currently slightly overpowered. This is not what this is about though.

Many people have pointed out that there is no reason to go tank/marine or mech in TvZ any more. Biomine seems to largely combine the mobility of MMM with the cost effectivenes of tank/marine. Before HotS there were 4 broad styles of TvZ available. MMM, tank/marine and mech. Being sequentially less mobile but more cost efficient and also less aggressive and more defensive style. All these three style have all but vanished from the face of the earth now because biomine is simply far more optimal than any of them.

At one point in the beta when mines were not that popular because people had the silly idea of using them outside of their army rather than just an army unit. A particular balance change saw te light of day:


Hots Beta balance Patch #19
Unburrowed Widow Mine attack priority decreased to 19, down from 20.
Burrowed Widow Mine attack priority remains unchanged.


Back then, I didn't realize how awful this idea is and what the implications of it are, the implications are simple, unlike with tank/marine. You aren't being punished for being caught out of position with mines because units do not attack them above ground. Unless you're Captain Zerus with all Jaedong's, Life's and DRG's powers combined. You can't realistically ask Zergs to focus down the mine with melee zerglings, it's just not doable. It actually doesn't matter all that much if the mines are already burrowed when Z runs in or are starting to burrow as Z runs in unlike with siege tanks.

Why? Because Siege tanks are best used when they can benefit from their gargantuan range. If Z can approach the T army without having first taken a volley of tank shots before theyt even get close, the engagement will go significantly worse for Terran. Furthermore, tanks have a minimum range so if Z can press close up to the tanks they aren't doing anything at all.

Added to that, mines have a very long cooldown. So if you start firing your first shot later you're not actually doing less damage during the entire fight, you just start doing damage later. Sure, it's sligtly less optimal to only have your mines burrowing as Z runs in, but it doesn't make the world of difference it does with tanks. By adding an extra unit in HotS, TvZ has been bereft of more options, rather than giving more. Because this one unit combines all the strengths of all the other styles into one. The cost effectiveness of tanks without being punished for being caught not set up and the mobility of bio.

In my ideal HotS TvZ, there would be four styles viable on a gradation of mobility vs cost effectiveness:

- MMM
- Biomine
- Biotank
- Mech

One, or at least I, would hope that at one point a patch comes which makes it that mines being caught unburrowed are actually punished for it significantly. On a side note, it's also why I think that drilling claws is an awful upgrade. What's the use of a setup unit if it sets up instantly? Wouldn't mind at all if mines did more damage but as a tradeof actually took considerable time to set up and had normal attack priority above ground.

***
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
Th1rdEye
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States1074 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-23 01:44:52
September 23 2013 01:40 GMT
#2
Pretty lame that the metagame boils down to one style of play. And yeah, I agree that targeting widow mines above ground is nearly impossible. Sure you can snipe a few here and there with mutas, and pick a few leading ones off, but none ever die unless you target them. Therefore, if you misclick or dont target them, they burrow and end up wiping out the tail end of your army anyway

Hope i didn't misread what you're trying to say.

from the days of: TheMarine [NC]...YellOw [H.O.T.]-Forever99 OgOgO [_MuMyung_] ChRh PlayGrrrr.... SlayerS_`BoxeR` [Oops]Reach [ReD]NaDa [DF]zergboy..!! Pusan[S.G] Nal_rA GARIMTO SSamJJang ChoJJa JinSu Silent_Control iloveoov H_PauL_WII JulyZerg [DaK]JoYo
bypLy
Profile Joined June 2013
757 Posts
September 23 2013 01:56 GMT
#3
great analysis
docvoc
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States5491 Posts
September 23 2013 14:53 GMT
#4
I actually pretty much agree with this, but I don't know what to say in response. Making mines have the same priority doesn't make very much sense since the army is seriously weak without it and the units do not pose the same risk above ground as they do below. However, I see your point and this is a great peice. I think that overall mines will get balanced or stay the same but the meta will change. Eventually the meta will get revolutionized, we just need a revolutionist .
User was warned for too many mimes.
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
September 23 2013 15:49 GMT
#5
On September 23 2013 23:53 docvoc wrote:
I actually pretty much agree with this, but I don't know what to say in response. Making mines have the same priority doesn't make very much sense since the army is seriously weak without it and the units do not pose the same risk above ground as they do below. However, I see your point and this is a great peice. I think that overall mines will get balanced or stay the same but the meta will change. Eventually the meta will get revolutionized, we just need a revolutionist .
Well, same logic applies to tanks. You just have to siege/unburrow before the engagement.

Like I said, there's not really a great thing to setup units if you aren't punished for them not being set up.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
larse
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
1611 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-26 21:21:52
September 26 2013 21:19 GMT
#6
It won't help.

In most engagements, the mines are burrowed.

Raising the attack priority will not change this at all.
ComaDose
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Canada10357 Posts
September 26 2013 21:31 GMT
#7
can you make a wall of unburrowed mines on a ramp and stand marines behind it and the lings will freak out trying to get to the marines?
BW pros training sc2 is like kiss making a dub step album.
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
September 26 2013 22:39 GMT
#8
On September 27 2013 06:19 larse wrote:
It won't help.

In most engagements, the mines are burrowed.

Raising the attack priority will not change this at all.
So? Terran isn't supposed to be punished for burrowingf on time? Are you reading, this is a design discussion, not a balance discussion.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL: GosuLeague
21:20
SWISS Round 5 into Bracket
ZZZero.O62
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
elazer 182
ProTech139
JuggernautJason116
StarCraft: Brood War
Larva 249
Bonyth 93
ZZZero.O 62
Mong 6
Dota 2
Dendi2390
420jenkins491
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu500
Other Games
Grubby5585
FrodaN1373
ceh9442
shahzam407
Fuzer 258
C9.Mang0119
Mew2King88
Trikslyr63
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV107
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 61
• Hupsaiya 34
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• intothetv
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV1304
• masondota21223
League of Legends
• TFBlade1429
Other Games
• imaqtpie2288
• Shiphtur218
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Cup
2h 55m
WardiTV 2025
13h 55m
MaNa vs Gerald
TBD vs MaxPax
ByuN vs TBD
TBD vs ShoWTimE
OSC
16h 55m
YoungYakov vs Mixu
ForJumy vs TBD
Percival vs TBD
Shameless vs TBD
The PondCast
1d 11h
WardiTV 2025
1d 14h
Cure vs Creator
TBD vs Solar
WardiTV 2025
2 days
OSC
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
SC Evo League
3 days
Ladder Legends
3 days
[ Show More ]
BSL 21
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
Ladder Legends
4 days
BSL 21
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Monday Night Weeklies
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS3
RSL Offline Finals
Kuram Kup

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
Slon Tour Season 2
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22

Upcoming

CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Big Gabe Cup #3
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.