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This is a heated issue, but please keep the debate civil. Personal insult is not 'discussion' and will be moderated. -Pg 36 |
On August 17 2013 02:14 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2013 02:12 Plansix wrote:On August 17 2013 02:08 JimmiC wrote:On August 17 2013 02:02 Plansix wrote:On August 17 2013 01:51 Naphal wrote:On August 17 2013 01:41 Plansix wrote:On August 17 2013 01:36 Rob-Zero wrote:On August 17 2013 01:32 Plansix wrote:On August 17 2013 01:30 Rob-Zero wrote:On August 17 2013 01:25 NovemberstOrm wrote: [quote] When Axiom started they stated they wanted to be as transparent as possible, of course this turned out to be a mistake sadly. Being transparent in anything business isn't a good idea. You can be transparent if you want, but at least arrange it with all parties involved in your transparency. There wasn't anything bad in what she released, so I dont see a problem. It mostly showed that both sides worked very hard to work something out. Really, I don't know why TakeTV is upset about it, because it really just shows that they both give a shit and it just didn't make sense for them to come. It was explained several times already why it was bad what she released (Take paying for Liquid, Acer looking bad, maybe Liquid does not want that anyone knows that Take helps them out f.e.), i absolutely see why TakeTV is upset about it, and you should, too. The whole things was a minor problem, not even worth mentioning, just some mistakes that can happen...as long as it was private. I'm not upset at all in any way. As I said in another thread, I am at work today preparing a motion to release another attorney's emails to the court to show he has been misleading the court and acting in bad faith. Although he never lies outright, he is a pain and likes to omit information he provides to the court and my attorneys are sick of it. It is considered unprofessional by some, but at the end of the day it gets what we want. Its mean, but we want him to knock it off and this is a slap in the face to get that done. Business is a mean and people don't always get along. We are not one big happy SC2 family, but a small group of teams and events all trying to make a living. see i am curious, i already read your posts in the other thread and i agree that in business you sometimes need to cut someone loose or end a businessrelation for (primarily financial) gains. But looking at this situation, there was no gain for Axiom, not participating in future Take events hurts them, they do not get money out of this either, the publicity is also not positive, if you take away simple exposure (which TB should have enough of) i cannot fathom any viable reason for Axiom / Genna / TB to worsen their image and their relations with Take at all, its simply not smart for their little venture, thus unprofessional imo. It was a little unprofessional, but that doesn't make it bad outright or anything people should be upset about. TB does not like Take and the world will continue spinning even though that it true. He isn't asking other people to hate Take TV and we shouldn't do that. This isn't highschool and two people not liking eachother does not mean that we need to pick a side or do anything of the sort. He is just being honest about his relationship with the group and we can take that into account in the future. I think by publicly stating you hate x and wont particpate in X you are hoping others will follow your lead. Otherwise you would simply do it and not announce it. That was not a good move in any way, but I don't really expect rational responses from people when their families are involved. As someone who is in the legal field, professionalism goes out the door when family becomes involved. Its likely why they hired a manager, to add a bit of buffer between TB and the events. I guess my main issues is with why the family is involved. I find it hard to feel sorry for someone who created the mess. Well I don't think they were going to become un-married. They are a husband and wife team, my parents are the same way. My father lights people up when they give my mother shit and the same thing goes for me.
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LOL GLHF.
Go back under your rock.
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Private information shouldn't be made public. Ever. Especially when it comes to business.
It doesn't matter who was right and who was wrong but the scene in general needs to act more like adults when handling these sort of things...
Adults can discuss and handle things in private and come to agreements. Children run and tell everyone what the other has done in private.
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This man has the best plan. Fuck all this noise, lets get ready to drink and watch some SC2.
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On August 17 2013 01:42 Plansix wrote: No, thats wrong. The backlash started when they pulled out of the team league and people got upset about that, claiming they were unprofessional. They explained they tried to work it out and the money for the travel wasn't there. People didn't accept that and kept complaining, saying they should have known Take wouldn't cover the whole cost. Then they released the chat logs. For someone as moderate has you, you are sticking your neck out a lot. There isn't a single ounce of rationality in this story since the announcement of Axiom leaving its place to Millenium. Blame can be thrown left and right according to personal alignment but everyone loses in the end.
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On August 17 2013 01:25 vrok wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2013 01:15 Azelja wrote: And people here really have the audacity to even wonder why guys like Tasteless, Day9, Artosis or who-have-you don't check TL (anymore) and why MLG (among many others) have been so sparse with the intel they give out.
Good grief, why is this still my browser's homepage yet? Are you saying TB is responsible for Tasteless, Day9 and Artosis withdrawing? Otherwise I don't get your point, as he's the one posting the most toxic content in here, is he not? Or maybe you're saying that the community constantly posts private conversations with Tasteless, Day9 and Artosis in public without asking for permission?
He's saying the community is shit and it's not suprising that other big personalities don't want to wallow in it.
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On August 17 2013 02:40 Otolia wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2013 01:42 Plansix wrote: No, thats wrong. The backlash started when they pulled out of the team league and people got upset about that, claiming they were unprofessional. They explained they tried to work it out and the money for the travel wasn't there. People didn't accept that and kept complaining, saying they should have known Take wouldn't cover the whole cost. Then they released the chat logs. For someone as moderate has you, you are sticking your neck out a lot. There isn't a single ounce of rationality in this story since the announcement of Axiom leaving its place to Millenium. Blame can be thrown left and right according to personal alignment but everyone loses in the end. I like watching SC2, and I dislike people freaking out over who will attend what because plane tickets cost more than they thought. At the end of the day, these folks are putting more money on the line that I am and I am willing to type a few nice things about them in return.
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Canada11214 Posts
Time to tone it down for all parties involved. Take a deep breath... and relax. It might be bad. But probably not as bad as you were about to say it was.
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This guy! I just finished watch SotG 100, so good! It is a crappy situation and nothing we say changes that so lets get excited about ESports!
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Totalbiscuit @Totalbiscuit 3m
@takesen I'm sorry that I lashed out at you in anger. You didn't deserve that, you do so much for the scene and I respect that massively.
So, pls lets just all clam down now.
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On August 16 2013 20:29 TaKeSeN wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Hey this is the first time i gonna put a statement her to the whole situation after the statements.
I don t get why this had to happen and Genna now gonna leave it but she might be even more emotional than me but then i dont actually understand why she reacted like this - everyone is different but here my story.
First of all i wanna appologize that i reacted emotional! This is not correct and nothing i can take back.
And now you get my 100% honest thought about the situation and this probably even pushed her to stop?
I really didnt wanna say to much about the whole situation cause i think it just hurts both sites and makes no sense at all i am always the guy who tries to find a solution together in every single way in privat at work family whatever.
So what do i do? I try to talk to people to solve problems if they happen which can always happen sometimes i fuck up sometimes someone else or whoever but in the end for me its just important to find a solution with everyone TOGETHER!
For myself i would never post privat chats which i had with someone- if its about privat stuff like friends/Girlfriend whatever even if i am angry or businessstuff like in this case cause this can hurt everyone not only one person and for myself you hurt my privacy which is very important to me.
A few things i wanna ADD. i kept talking to Genna about a statement about Axiom not attending she did saturday, sunday, monday, tuesday and i think she posted it wednesday? She never responded just saturday once she is in a broadcast or so and will come back to me later. i reminded her 5 times or more on different days and she even talked to other people that she got my messages but never wanted to answer me - and in the end she said cause of the timezones we missed each other!??! I dont know but this is pretty lame. I really hate it that i have to do a statement like this and its also kinda emotional cause all this means alot to me i have one aim doing a good job make alot of people happy and enjoy what i do but no its me getting shit because i tried to calm down for the whole situation and dont bring up any bad words about anyone cause everyone does mistakes from time to time and she publishes every single word we discussed in private about this thing - Is this what we call professional? At least i dont see that.
I will still not publish stuff she said cause even if i am angry i will just describe a little bit...
In the whole season she almost never replied to emails once she didnt answer 11 days or so? on 10 mails...as you probably realized we even had to do replaycasts cause axiom didnt play thier matches - Genna (when she answered) mentioned they have stuff to do but with the day we talked to Crank instead of her it worked perfectly fine and even the players thought they have to wait and dont have to play games even when we were pushing it alot and reminded her etc..
Its really frustrating to me tbh cause what i wanted from the start was just a statement from both sites that the situation was fucked up abit and both sites did some mistakes and no one would ever be angry so why Genna didn you try to get something solved together and now act like this? I even told you before saturday that if you do a statement please lets do it together and find the best possible way for everyone.
THE MOST IMPORTANT THING!!! But lets come back to why this all started - Axiom expected us to pay 100% of the trip which we never said/Promised or even mentioned we with a single word. We cant promise stuff like this if we dont have the ressources for it. So we didnt.
We sent an email which said we have 20k pricemoney and an offline finale and they agreed to play it via mail. After they played the last playday they realize we dont pay the whole trip cause we give them a reminder that we offer 1500 and hotels and then this happens? This is very sad honestly.
How would you ever expect we can pay 4 teams fulltrips from korea and wouldnt even mention it to the teams? I think the only organizazion who can provide it is Blizzard at the moment?
One thing which was just meant as a help for the teams was the support we give and i know that the costs are very high for all teams thats why i wanted to have this support and kept talking to sponsors about it and for Season 2 we even want to raise it that was sure from the beginning but we never knew if the league will work out it was a nice try. But well our mistake was to not communicate it. We wanted and thought the mail was sent to everyone at Cebit in March but it wasn t. I am sorry about that to all teams!
But still i think if i dont communicate any help you won t expect any support at all cause you dont go to a Dreamhack or HomeStorycup and expect we pay all trips and not even tell you.
I really love what i do and i do it every day 7 days 80hours+ a week almost all over the year and only take very small breaks from esport to get some privat time and vacation etc. Cause i love esport and i appreciate it soo much that i can have a job in this business but honestly this really hurts me my motivation my heart and i am honestly sad really sad that this has to happen.
Right now i have almost all emotions in me but also i am angry about what Genna does and how she handled it.now i also wrote what i think she did wrong but if i wouldnt do it i could not live with what she did and on the same moment feel okay.
@Genna - If you finally wanna talk for the first time about the statement and how everything went seriously i am still up for it even if so much shit flew around.
Since she posted so much she also posted that i pay costs for Liquid from my own privat wallet cause the situation was not perfect and i wanted to find a solution and LIQUID kept talking to me and really wanted to find a solution. One more thing i even offered Genna that i would think about also helping them also from my own money to bring them here - She never reacted on that and tried to find a conversation about this and in the very end after she almost never replied i said okay well we cant pay it cause i already felt bad that i offer solutions and try to find options but the other site seems like they not even care.
I want to appologize to the whole community for what i did wrong and the whole situation i honestly think no one is perfect expecially me and everyone does some mistakes but this makes me look so bad cause someone probably even wanted this happen...and didnt even try to fix stuff together.
This was MY honest statement which could even have more stuff in it - Its what I think and no one else.
I ve seen comments about NOW i won t watch TaKeTV anymore which really hurted me alot tbh but i think i explained my situation and what happend if people still say okay TaKe is an Idiot i respect it and i lost viewers cause this is what i think and did cause its me.
Thank you for reading my horrible text!
//Dennis still a stand up guy.
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On August 17 2013 02:43 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2013 01:25 vrok wrote:On August 17 2013 01:15 Azelja wrote: And people here really have the audacity to even wonder why guys like Tasteless, Day9, Artosis or who-have-you don't check TL (anymore) and why MLG (among many others) have been so sparse with the intel they give out.
Good grief, why is this still my browser's homepage yet? Are you saying TB is responsible for Tasteless, Day9 and Artosis withdrawing? Otherwise I don't get your point, as he's the one posting the most toxic content in here, is he not? Or maybe you're saying that the community constantly posts private conversations with Tasteless, Day9 and Artosis in public without asking for permission? He's saying the community is shit and it's not suprising that other big personalities don't want to wallow in it. So TB represents 'the community' now or how otherwise could one possibly claim any relevance between that and this piece of drama? You can single out a specific subset of people as 'the community' to be able to generalize it to fit any given argument at any given point. It's pointless and childish. People just need to learn to accept things at face value. Some people are dicks, some are not, and some you had no clue even existed in the first place.
Focusing on negatives and forever proclaiming that the community is shit is a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's helping make it shit by doing exactly that. If you want to make it more friendly you can actually spread positive thoughts instead of 'you're all worthless pieces of shit for saying that he's a worthless piece of shit'.
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On August 17 2013 02:48 Xoronius wrote: Totalbiscuit @Totalbiscuit 3m
@takesen I'm sorry that I lashed out at you in anger. You didn't deserve that, you do so much for the scene and I respect that massively.
So, pls lets just all clam down now.
All is said and done. Close this thread.
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On August 17 2013 01:25 Taipoka wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2013 00:00 Chon231 wrote: I am truly disappointed that TB and Genna are acting like two high school children. TB is trying to "defend" Genna? Maybe she shouldn't have done what she did. She made her bed, let her sleep in it. A terrible attitude from both of you and shitty business practices by posting conversations with a BUSINESS PARTNER. I am all for "lifting the veil" of eSports but not like this... I want some clarity on which organizations are not paying winners and what teams are doing shady shit like KespA with Flash. But this is just fucking sad. Dennis had every right to not only be pissed about you posting it but should be pissed about your unprofessional conduct leading up to this point. You two need to step back, look at the situation, and grow up.
Also, I know TB is going to eventually come out and make some sort of public statement where he uses big words and mild intellect to sound smart but remember he is acting like a damn child and is burning bridges he should have never touched.
Meh, rant over go TL! Just a point of advice. Dont know if you are married or what. But you should defend your wife. You need to defend your wife. You have to defend your wife. You can argue about how he defended, but never about if he should.
Right or wrong, I will defend my wife to the death and vice versa. Loyalty is a nice virtue to possess.
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Well, they all seem like nice people who got insecure, defensive and angry and made some mistakes. I hope it hasn't cost SC2 and Esports too much. The whole thing has put me right off transparency :p
Hopefully they can work it out
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On August 17 2013 00:24 TotalBiscuit wrote: I'm very curious to know why it's ok for Take to be emotional but it's not ok for Genna or myself to do the same. I guess the double standards shouldn't be surprising by now though.
why don't you make another butthurt song on youtube if it makes you feel better ya big cry baby
User was warned for this post
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Would be cool if TB would come to the next HSC as caster.
Knowing Take he might even ask him when this drama is over
[Edit] But I guess he won't pay his trip
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On August 16 2013 12:47 geokilla wrote: Axiom is screwed. Slayers is dead. Again. Genna is avoiding the problem instead of facing it.
And can you blame her after what she has been through? Genna is a human just like me or you. Best of luck Genna! You're a lovely person and all the best!
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On August 17 2013 02:05 JimmiC wrote:Basically if genna had wrote this Axiom owner Genna Bain's comment on Reddit + Show Spoiler +-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just going to add some additional info here. Several reasons have prevented us from participating in the offline portion of ATC.
•After WCS NA, we felt that CranK needed to focus on recovering from his injury.
•There is not much time left to prepare for DreamHack Bucharest and we want to be in top condition. (Also in the event we make it to the SC2L offline portion, we wanted to be prepared for that as well.)
•We were not directly made aware that teams would only receive $1500 for the entire team to travel from Korea to Germany until flights were ridiculously overpriced. ($1500 per team is comped by ATC, not per person)
While our team is not in any kind of financial distress (if it were, I have my primary accounts and 401K to dip into) it is my goal as owner of Axiom to break even as much as possible and not to grossly exceed our income from sponsorship. It's not always pleasant to have to be fiscally responsible, but there are other factors at work here which made my decision to keep the team at home easier.
Thank you all for your understanding in this matter. We have some wonderful sponsors and fans who expected to see us compete at this event and we are very sorry to have to let everyone down by forfeiting our position in ATC. We are sure that ATC will announce our replacement shortly, so please support them and enjoy the finals regardless of our absence." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Take wrote this + Show Spoiler +TaKe's official statement from TakeTV
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hey everyone in the esportscene as you have seen Axiom did a post that they won`t be able to participate in the Acer TeamStoryCup powered by Intel which makes me very sad! I have seen some bad feedback from the community which gives me a very bad feeling cause Axiom same as us tried to figure out all options if they can make it and do not have to cancel thier participation.
We kept talking for along time already and also informed Millenium right after we knew that it _might_ happen that Axiom won t be able to attend. I wanna thank Axiom for keep talking to us and trying to find a solution. So as you can see Millenium will be the replacement in this case - Stuff like this can happen and is very sad for the team itself cause they fought for this place.
I hope to see Axiom back in action if there is a next season and they can do it once again to qualify for the Finals! I hope even with this bad news you are looking forward to the ATC Finale as i do which will be already saturday and i also wanna let you guys know that we try to work on this league to let stuff like this not happen again and try to have even a better communication to the teams but don t forget esport is a very very busy business and all of the people actually working here invest more time than most "normal" people would ever do.
Thanks, Dennis And Tb had wrote just this + Show Spoiler +My view on this is frankly pragmatic. Take and ATC are not suffering in any way. Millenium was confirmed as our replacement some time ago in private, which has been announced today. The roster has not suffered and the tournament will happen as normal, just like any other tournament that has a cancellation and has to find substitutes. Millenium are popular and will no doubt bring in the French crowd that otherwise might not have watched the event, balancing out the lost numbers from Axiom players not participating. The net cost to Take and ATC is zero, who are still paying out the same regardless, they are just paying it out to a different team. The tournament will go ahead as planned with a roster change, there is no disruption to the event.
On Axioms side, we have provided the following. 14 weeks of competition at unholy hours of the night for our players with no prize money. Our players have essentially worked hard for something they will no longer receive. Our sponsors will not receive exposure in the finals as we had hoped, so they are losing out. The team in general suffers, the tournament does not. ATC also received many hours of free casting from myself and the sponsors benefited from that significantly, with views 3-5x higher on average than the other English streams and an additional 20-30,000 views per series from VoDs hosted on the TotalBiscuit Starcraft Youtube channel, giving exceptional sponsor ROI Acer and Intel that would otherwise not have existed. Teams also received sponsor ROI due to use of the virtual jersey in all matches, software we developed specifically to help everyone.
So, after all that, my opinion of this is that the backlash on Axiom is unwarranted and makes little logical sense, when Axiom are the ones who put a lot into this tournament and are suffering due to a combination of unforeseen and unfortunate circumstances. If anything I would have hoped for support from the community in a difficult time for the team, but for the most part it seems that will not be happening. As always, we will endure that and push on regardless. Then this would have passed over and been a thread filled with, Well that sucks at least mill going, and Crap wanted to see Axiom, and been over. Instead TB decided to start insulting people in the community to get some face time. Then Genna, I'm assuming thinking if people saw what she did would be more understanding posts what she did. After people including Take were offended instead of agreeing. Again instead of being calm and professional TB used his regular approach of attacking. Which cause another crap storm. Then genna quit, AND AGAIN instead of being calm or professional, even though he claimed he was going to, heads right bac into attacking people on the forums and on twitter. This could have been a complete non issue. And the quotes I used are what people actaully said, even the one from TB. Sadly he mixed in 50 jerk posts, and cause a raging forest fire from a small camp fire. Don't feel sorry for TB he created this. Feel bad for all the others pulled into the mess. Including his wife, who instead of protecting he is making a target. Its akin to he saw his wife in a room with a bear, the bear was sleeping so he decides screw this bear I'm gonna start poking it repeadly with a stick. Not shockingly bear wakes up mad. But I digress. If some one collected all the posts this could be a perfect case study on what not to do and then you could show how professonal organizations handle MUCH MUCH bigger issues then axiom pulling out of the live finals. Heck they could have just said "Sorry we can't make it guys we feel awful, wish we coudl be there but with Miya retiring and Cranks health we just can't. Glad millinum is stepping up hope its a great tournment. We arn't going anywhere and are going to come back stronger. Thanks for all your support sorry to disapoint in this case, we will be back!"
Great points. Agree completely, it's not necessary, and it's all just a bit sad for everyone involved. I guess though that you need to remember that everyone involved is a person and can be emotionally affected by stuff.
It's a new industry, it doesn't have the benefit of having well worn, streamlined paths and structures ensuring that the right people are in the right positions, and the right things get said at the right time.
As bystanders I think we need to realize this, and not expect perfection from everyone, all the time.
Personally I'm all for giving everyone the benefit of the doubt. So there are warts, so what? We're all people here, enjoy the game and move on.
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