|
Disclaimer
This is a problem I have thought about for quite some time. Last year I wrote a very similar blog post, but I never posted it because I felt there was no way of solving the problem. I still largely think there is no way of solving the problem, but for now I will write about the problems the community faces rather than ways of fixing it. I will be writing another blog post sometime today on what we can do to fix the scene, and I will include a very detailed and descriptive post on what exactly my solution means.
The REAL problem between Foreigners and Korean’s.
There has been lots of talk about the growing disparity between Korean’s and Foreigners. Simply put, it is obvious that over time Foreigners will not, if not already, be able to compete with Korean’s. This was how it was in Brood War, and it appears that it will be the same way in SC2
.
A lot of people have argued that Foreigners need to practice more. Huk and other popular players have stated numerous times that they feel most Foreigners are lazy. Artosis pointed out that many Foreigners no longer feel an incentive to try and compete against Koreans. These players are more focused on retaining their contracts and attempting to see some sort of a payday in tournaments rather than try and win the whole thing. After all, flying all over the world only to fail is not the glamorous life they thought they would have.
While these are definitely problems, they do not even come close to touching the real issue at hand. The real problem in the world of StarCraft 2 for the Foreigner scene and community is about developing talent. Catz briefly touched on this during State of the Game, and this is what the bulk of this blog post will be about.
Currently, the Foreigner community does not have a system in place to develop its talent. Once a player hits GrandMaster on the ladder, their only way to start competing with the best players in the world is to enter tournaments. This in itself is problematic. First, most players do not have the ability to enter into these tournaments – the two biggest problems is time and money. Second, the skill gap between players in GrandMaster and top Foreigners is huge. The top Foreigners consistently dominate other Foreigners. Whereas Korea has the GSL, the only tournaments American’s have are tournaments which Korean’s have the ability to enter – and they thus enter and win. – NOTE – the CSL is not a tournament which develops talent, it is more like an exhibition stage. That is in itself a whole other discussion.
This has resulted in various problems for the Foreigner community. Since we are not developing our talent, the top Foreigners remain on top. They largely have no threat of being replaced. The same top players from two years ago are still largely the same top players now. There are a few exceptions to this rule as in any case, but the point still remains valid. As others have pointed out, the incentive for Foreigners to compete with Koreans has decreased. It is far easier for a Foreigner to enter in tournaments and try and place 7-8th and get a small paycheck then it is for them to spend a considerable amount of time trying to compete against the goliath that is Korea. The other Foreigners who consistently try and compete against Koreans are unable to. Whereas Stephano, Huk, and Idra held dominance at some point, the Korean machine has taken over. This isn’t because Stephano, Huk, or Idra are not practicing as much (though I would probably bet they aren’t), it’s because Korea has 500 players who are nearly identical in skill level with the Foreigner community’s top Foreigners. Huk, Stephano and Idra are all great players, but look at it from a numbers perspective – they simply don’t stand a chance. The end of their reign was in fact inevitable.
By far however, the biggest issue in the Foreigner scene is the shift that has happened within the last year and a half. The emphasis for Foreigners is no longer placed on becoming the best they can be – its now about marketability. It is far easier for an up and coming player to place more emphasis on streaming and becoming a personality then it is to actually compete. This has never happened in any competitive game. In Counter-Strike, Quake, Fighting Games, etc – the emphasis has always be the best you can be and then you will be marketable. The reality is, it is far easier to become a personality then it is to become the best player – and when this happens – there is definitely a problem within the industry. [This problem also directly fuels into the issue players like Desrow and Catz have. They need to stream and stay a personality or their livelihood goes away. They cannot focus as much on the game as Koreans because they then would have no way of surviving. This is why you will never see Desrow or Catz beating Koreans or even the top Foreigners. It’s unfortunate, but that is the nature of the beast.]
By developing or creating an infrastructure which allows us to adequately develop our talent, we alleviate the vast majority of these problems. Over time, there would be a shift back to the idea of becoming the best player possible because people value skill over personality and there is now potential to win prize money. This would bring in an influx of players to try and compete, and effectively raise the skill cap of every bracket. Those in GrandMasters will get better, and as a result, those Foreigners at the top would have new competition to face. They would now have an incentive to compete for fear of being replaced, and the Foreigner community would increase the number of players who are able to compete with the best.
I will discuss this last paragraph and my ideas on what exactly developing our talent means in a separate blog post.
Thank you,
  
|
I’d also like to point out that since Korea does in fact have a national tournament which offers the ability for open qualifiers – they effectively continue to raise the skill cap of their players. This is also why players like Huk, Idra, etc fall off. Because of the system, it is far more difficult for Foreigners to stay relevant then it is for Korean’s. (Examples: Nestea, MVP, etc)
Also, should this be posted in SC2? Or is it ok for a blog post?
|
|
|
Haha.. I was getting frustrated a lot of people weren't realizing these were all common issues - so I wrote this. I was talking about this back in June/July - although you definitely beat me to the punch. As someone who came from an FPS background and was involved with CAL & the CPL- its a problem I immediately saw within the community.
|
On March 23 2013 04:05 Cheetahlol wrote:Haha.. I was getting frustrated a lot of people weren't realizing these were all common issues - so I wrote this. I was talking about this back in June/July - although you definitely beat me to the punch. As someone who came from an FPS background and was involved with CAL & the CPL- its a problem I immediately saw within the community.
It was talked about two years ago and even unheeded then.
|
On March 23 2013 04:07 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2013 04:05 Cheetahlol wrote:Haha.. I was getting frustrated a lot of people weren't realizing these were all common issues - so I wrote this. I was talking about this back in June/July - although you definitely beat me to the punch. As someone who came from an FPS background and was involved with CAL & the CPL- its a problem I immediately saw within the community. It was talked about two years ago and even unheeded then.
Well its largely dependent upon the community - and the community has consistently shown they do not care about it.
|
On March 23 2013 04:09 Cheetahlol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2013 04:07 Torte de Lini wrote:On March 23 2013 04:05 Cheetahlol wrote:Haha.. I was getting frustrated a lot of people weren't realizing these were all common issues - so I wrote this. I was talking about this back in June/July - although you definitely beat me to the punch. As someone who came from an FPS background and was involved with CAL & the CPL- its a problem I immediately saw within the community. It was talked about two years ago and even unheeded then. Well its largely dependent upon the community - and the community has consistently shown they do not care about it.
It's because most people regard as the "best matches" being the ones that are the most entertaining.
Because Koreans have played the most mechanically well, there is an association that they also play the most interesting. But obviously, that isn't necessarily true as they play more to win than to entertain.
|
South Korea is the only country in the world who somehow take computer games seriously. This is the reason of why being a success internationally except in the only place that matters is not really that big of an achievement for SC2.
I doubt it is going to change any time soon, so people are better of getting used to have what we had in BW. And fret not, it was AWESOME and I miss it everyday.
|
On March 23 2013 04:19 fabiano wrote:
South Korea is the only country in the world who somehow take computer games seriously. This is the reason of why being a success internationally except in the only place that matters is not really that big of an achievement for SC2.
I doubt it is going to change any time soon, so people are better of getting used to have what we had in BW. And fret not, it was AWESOME and I miss it everyday.
There's ways to develop talent and build a system. Culture is irrelevant. A lot of people keep bringing it up but its extremely irrelevant when it comes to developing talent. There's a lot of games (Quake, CS, etc) which were able to develop talent even though the countries were not culturally accepting of competitive gaming.
|
This is known, khaleesi.
Seriously, though, most of what you say is right, mainly because you are parroting what other (more known) people have been saying for months if not years. The issue is there is no real fix. I'm interested in reading what your "fix" is, but I'm also incredibly skeptical that it is realistic or even solves the problem at all. The short answer is it is a problem of money and opportunity. There simply isn't enough money and opportunity in the system to give enough incentive for people with the real talent to become a pro player to just not do something else. Most of the low/mid tier "pros" in the US are actually college kids with extra time on their hands that are really just doing this until they finish school, and that is definitely the smart thing for them to do. There simply isn't much of a future in esports in the west, unless you are one of the lucky few to make it on EG or become your own brand (Day 9). Even then, it isn't the most attractive option, as the odds of you becoming one of them is incredibly low, and the bottom may fall out of this whole thing in any given year.
The incentive (money, stability) just isn't there, and I don't think it will be for a long time. It isn't a culture thing, it is a money thing. What money that is available goes to the absolute top talent (tournament winners) and stays there. There is no sustainable "minor leagues" or "pro farms" in the scene, like there are in major sports.
|
On March 23 2013 04:34 HardlyNever wrote:
This is known, khaleesi.
Seriously, though, most of what you say is right, mainly because you are parroting what other (more known) people have been saying for months if not years. The issue is there is no real fix. I'm interested in reading what your "fix" is, but I'm also incredibly skeptical that it is realistic or even solves the problem at all. The short answer is it is a problem of money and opportunity. There simply isn't enough money and opportunity in the system to give enough incentive for people with the real talent to become a pro player to just not do something else. Most of the low/mid tier "pros" in the US are actually college kids with extra time on their hands that are really just doing this until they finish school, and that is definitely the smart thing for them to do. There simply isn't much of a future in esports in the west, unless you are one of the lucky few to make it on EG or become your own brand (Day 9). Even then, it isn't the most attractive option, as the odds of you becoming one of them is incredibly low, and the bottom may fall out of this whole thing in any given year.
The incentive (money, stability) just isn't there, and I don't think it will be for a long time. It isn't a culture thing, it is a money thing. What money that is available goes to the absolute top talent (tournament winners) and stays there. There is no sustainable "minor leagues" or "pro farms" in the scene, like there are in major sports.
I agree, you hit it directly on the head. The real issue comes down to money.
And, you're absolutely right. I have not brought anything new to the table. I have simply attempted to organize and put all of the problems in one area. The intention of the blog was to clarify and make distinctions between the vast majority of problems right now.
My solution comes from a developer standpoint. There needs to be some sort of integration between the ladder system that fuels into tournaments like Dreamhack and MLG. - This is the bulk of the point my solution blog post will make.
-Edit- I also already sent a message to Torte asking him if he wants me to take this down or link to his blog post.
|
On March 23 2013 04:19 fabiano wrote:
South Korea is the only country in the world who somehow take computer games seriously. This is the reason of why being a success internationally except in the only place that matters is not really that big of an achievement for SC2.
I doubt it is going to change any time soon, so people are better of getting used to have what we had in BW. And fret not, it was AWESOME and I miss it everyday.
From what I've seen from TL, that is exaggerated some. I remember seeing people on TL from SK write about how a lot of people view it that way, but that simply is not the case. Progamers have an easier route, but it isn't like a top tier sports job like a soccer player; that, accompanied by a collectivist societal surrounding, makes it harder in other ways, like family expectations.
|
On March 23 2013 04:40 Cheetahlol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2013 04:34 HardlyNever wrote:
This is known, khaleesi.
Seriously, though, most of what you say is right, mainly because you are parroting what other (more known) people have been saying for months if not years. The issue is there is no real fix. I'm interested in reading what your "fix" is, but I'm also incredibly skeptical that it is realistic or even solves the problem at all. The short answer is it is a problem of money and opportunity. There simply isn't enough money and opportunity in the system to give enough incentive for people with the real talent to become a pro player to just not do something else. Most of the low/mid tier "pros" in the US are actually college kids with extra time on their hands that are really just doing this until they finish school, and that is definitely the smart thing for them to do. There simply isn't much of a future in esports in the west, unless you are one of the lucky few to make it on EG or become your own brand (Day 9). Even then, it isn't the most attractive option, as the odds of you becoming one of them is incredibly low, and the bottom may fall out of this whole thing in any given year.
The incentive (money, stability) just isn't there, and I don't think it will be for a long time. It isn't a culture thing, it is a money thing. What money that is available goes to the absolute top talent (tournament winners) and stays there. There is no sustainable "minor leagues" or "pro farms" in the scene, like there are in major sports. I agree, you hit it directly on the head. The real issue comes down to money. And, you're absolutely right. I have not brought anything new to the table. I have simply attempted to organize and put all of the problems in one area. The intention of the blog was to clarify and make distinctions between the vast majority of problems right now. My solution comes from a developer standpoint. There needs to be some sort of integration between the ladder system that fuels into tournaments like Dreamhack and MLG. - This is the bulk of the point my solution blog post will make. -Edit- I also already sent a message to Torte asking him if he wants me to take this down or link to his blog post.
This has been attempted to a small degree. where I think the top like 10 players from each ladder region were invited to a smaller tournament(it might have been the WCS, but not 100% sure on that). At least one (possibly more) of the players invited was a known maphacker and people threw a huge fit, and Blizzard has since backed away from the idea since they know they can't really control hacking up front.
|
On March 23 2013 04:56 HardlyNever wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2013 04:40 Cheetahlol wrote:On March 23 2013 04:34 HardlyNever wrote:
This is known, khaleesi.
Seriously, though, most of what you say is right, mainly because you are parroting what other (more known) people have been saying for months if not years. The issue is there is no real fix. I'm interested in reading what your "fix" is, but I'm also incredibly skeptical that it is realistic or even solves the problem at all. The short answer is it is a problem of money and opportunity. There simply isn't enough money and opportunity in the system to give enough incentive for people with the real talent to become a pro player to just not do something else. Most of the low/mid tier "pros" in the US are actually college kids with extra time on their hands that are really just doing this until they finish school, and that is definitely the smart thing for them to do. There simply isn't much of a future in esports in the west, unless you are one of the lucky few to make it on EG or become your own brand (Day 9). Even then, it isn't the most attractive option, as the odds of you becoming one of them is incredibly low, and the bottom may fall out of this whole thing in any given year.
The incentive (money, stability) just isn't there, and I don't think it will be for a long time. It isn't a culture thing, it is a money thing. What money that is available goes to the absolute top talent (tournament winners) and stays there. There is no sustainable "minor leagues" or "pro farms" in the scene, like there are in major sports. I agree, you hit it directly on the head. The real issue comes down to money. And, you're absolutely right. I have not brought anything new to the table. I have simply attempted to organize and put all of the problems in one area. The intention of the blog was to clarify and make distinctions between the vast majority of problems right now. My solution comes from a developer standpoint. There needs to be some sort of integration between the ladder system that fuels into tournaments like Dreamhack and MLG. - This is the bulk of the point my solution blog post will make. -Edit- I also already sent a message to Torte asking him if he wants me to take this down or link to his blog post. This has been attempted to a small degree. where I think the top like 10 players from each ladder region were invited to a smaller tournament(it might have been the WCS, but not 100% sure on that). At least one (possibly more) of the players invited was a known maphacker and people threw a huge fit, and Blizzard has since backed away from the idea since they know they can't really control hacking up front.
I dont like the idea of a top 10 ladder system. It values amount played rather than skill. I think it just needs to pull from a large number of players specific to that region and go into some sort of qualifiers or additional league format. You also need to immediately make it LAN based to address cheating.
|
WCG worked that way, didn't it? I remember someone (either Day[9], Nony or Incontrol, probably Day[9]) said that.
|
Really, the best system can be found at ESEA. Divisions tiered by skill level - where the top teams at the highest skill level are invited into a world tournament.
|
Okay. Let's talk incentives for underrepresented groups.
The fact of the matter is, talent needs money behind it to foster it. The most talented individual who gets home from work and practices into the wee hours will not compare to the Korean pro who lives and breathes the game and has a network of practice partners and strong coaches working with them. Let's look at the main components:
- A permanent location: Where will this be? Korea is a small country, and it is easier for Korean players to relocate to Seoul than it is for North American or European players to relocate to some center there (Paris, Berlin, and Los Angeles are looking to become the international hubs). But without other team houses to compete with, this doesn't look promising for breeding a competitive spirit. It would almost have to be in Korea.
- 8+ players like-minded players who live there
- A coach
If I were to set this up, I would have it look something like this:
Send out a call for applications. The applications would be very extensive, with long-form question/answer sections. Things like, "Why should you be chosen," "What separates you," etc. All applicants would participate in an extensive "tournament". The replays would be viewed by an experienced panel of judges who are looking not necessarily for wins/losses, but for the type of players whose play shows promise.The chosen players receive 10-100% funding for all expenses associated with relocating and living in a new city for a period of 1 year (depending on the amount of funds available).
Where would the money come from? It would have to be a partnership between regional eSports organizations such as the eSports Canada Alliance, private and corporate funders, and possibly government funding secured under the guise of Economic Diversification.
|
Not really relevant, but I would replace Idra and Huk with Naniwa and maybe SaSe or Thorzain.
|
The difference is cultural. You won't find a competitive video game on a television channel in a European country (I don't know about the U.S. but I think it's similar there). If I ask random students around my at university, or my own students at school (I teach Biology) some people will have heard of SC2, or games in general, but most are oblivious about the existence of the competitive scene.
In South Korea this is different, and while it is still not at the scale of a grand sport like, for example, baseball or soccer, it is definitly getting enough attention to be an attractive investment for sponsors.
I don't see how to solve this though, looking forward to your suggestions.
|
On March 23 2013 07:26 Callynn wrote:
The difference is cultural. You won't find a competitive video game on a television channel in a European country (I don't know about the U.S. but I think it's similar there). If I ask random students around my at university, or my own students at school (I teach Biology) some people will have heard of SC2, or games in general, but most are oblivious about the existence of the competitive scene.
In South Korea this is different, and while it is still not at the scale of a grand sport like, for example, baseball or soccer, it is definitly getting enough attention to be an attractive investment for sponsors.
I don't see how to solve this though, looking forward to your suggestions.
SC2 has been on TV at least in Sweden and Germany and I think some channel in France started showing GSL recently iirc.
The last couple of DreamHack finals were broadcasted on a pretty big TV channel in Sweden.
Not saying there isn't a cultural difference, just that there are "competitive video games" on TV.
|
There is no way to prevent a personality from getting paid to do what they do, so when compared to the best scenario for becoming the best foreign gamer in korea and actually winning a GSL they choose money over skill. Would you rather get paid well by being an entertainer living where you currently live, with people who speak your language or move to korea, grind ~12 hours a day, make no money, for up to years, just for a chance and a slim one at that to win a GSL.
|
Trouble is if US players trained like Korean ones (over ten hours a day, not going to college) that would be a rather silly life decision for most of them, as it would be in most other countries. The guy above who said that most US players are college kids with extra time pretty much hit the nail on the head.
|
The only difference is as others have said, time playing the game.
Drop everything in life and start playing the game 12 hours a day. And I mean actually playing the game, not doing what silly foreigner wannabes do and move into a "pro" house and then promptly slack off or start playing LoL or Dota all day. Hardcore practice sc2 and anyone can get to korean levels.
Even the best foreigners now don't play nearly as much as most Koreans and it constantly shows.
|
United States10328 Posts
On March 23 2013 14:49 LuckyFool wrote:
The only difference is as others have said, time playing the game.
Drop everything in life and start playing the game 12 hours a day. And I mean actually playing the game, not doing what silly foreigner wannabes do and move into a "pro" house and then promptly slack off or start playing LoL or Dota all day. Hardcore practice sc2 and anyone can get to korean levels.
Even the best foreigners now don't play nearly as much as most Koreans and it constantly shows.
Though practice time is certainly a major factor, I still think one also needs (1) a comparable peer group and (2) coaching to improve to "Korean levels."
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
