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On March 11 2013 16:30 LuckyFool wrote:
The blog I spoke of last night had turned into such a convoluted mess I realized after taking a step back and asking myself what the larger picture really was, and what I really thought was going on...I realized my answer was 360 degrees different.
After getting over that mental roadblock this seemed to pop out of nowhere in less than half the time. Effortlessly too, Without having to make any edits or changes whatsoever. Can't remember EVER writing anything in recent times that came out as easily as this.
you know rob
turning 360 degrees in place just leaves you facing the same direction you were looking at originally
just sayin'
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Some people here are forgetting that all the private server things was made available through blizzard releasing a standalone version of their battlenet client so you could set a gaming server yourself.
I also read alot of misconception, as usual, about the so called "community".
The TL community began quite late... overall, and it for sure, didn't have anything to do with korean pro gaming on a professional level like they have the opportunity now.
Community in the eye of it's cult, korean starcraft pro gaming, never ever existed until recently.
What I want to say is that what keeps community alive isn't community, but exactly the topic its centered around.
Would Korean BW/SC2 pro gaming (under any of it's current form) be to vanish, frequentation on this site would be void in a very small ammount of time (providing no western scene survives, because as I see it, if the mecca of esports isn't able to sustain any SC rts pro ground, foreign scene, however big it can be atm, is still smaller and poorer and promised the same fate).
My narrow perspective on the matter, eventho ive been around since before anything remotely memorable, is that Blizzard pretty much fucked up everything and that the current persons in charge just suck for the task they had ahead if they wanted to get into esports.
I'm not saying pre 2000 blizzard workers were better or whatever, or that the persons in charge are total morons, I'm just saying that the situation was complicated enough regarding esports matter, to at least make blizzard reconsider their global approach on the topic.
Now the issue with all this and that, is that their own approach on the esports matter, must influence the way they make their own product, however, they didn't / couldn't find the proper syntax to acclimate the korean neutered pro gaming existence to their own design needs.
That's pretty sad to some extent, but on the other hand I believe that this sort of task was right out of their reach from the very beginning.
However, all this doesn't mean there aren't any solution to these problems.
It's just it must be progaming making it's own game.
I believe mobas are the very first incarnation of those, though very rough and light years away from the refinement of a game like brood war.
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The fact of it is there is always hope for the future. The game doesn't even really matter if you see through it and keep a positive outlook. Starcraft as an ESPORT has already succeeded and will continue to do so if people stay to see it through and help turn it into all it can be. Something like the collegiate starleague (CSL) is about so much more than just playing Starcraft. Sure it uses the platform of gaming and specifically Starcraft as the core of it's driving point but all of the underlying elements that come about through the playing of the game. Elements of teamwork, socialization around a common cause, camaraderie, finding success in something in life, applying yourself to achieve a goal in life. These are basic core life principles that transcend far beyond the confines of a mouse and keyboard. Teams and communities forming around the country at various colleges, all growing and building on these principles which at the end of the day means SO much more than just a silly game living or dying.
Your post is kind of just a rhetorical speech though, because the same issues persist; you have just rephrased them.
For instance saying that SC2 as an esport only dies if we let it...well that's fine, I think everyone can agree on that. Now take the next logical question: What is keeping people from letting it die? All you say to this end is that "it won't happen", but its not so much an argument. It could easily be that people *will* stop caring about it based on how its designed, and that it will therefore die. You're just rephrasing the problem. So now the question is how do you entice people to keep playing?
You also say that SC2 is more than the game play, but about the interactions with the community and going to live events. Well that's fine...but why wouldn't people choose to play or watch a game that has both live events, interaction with the community, and solid game play? There are many games that offer interaction with a community, and in many cases they are quite intelligent (I do like Team Liquid forums, but honestly I love watching Day9 more than SC2 now, just based on his personality).
Similarly for the friends you've made in SC2 why can't you go to play other games? I mean this already happens in many cases, if you watch streams (i.e. Diablo 3, SimCity 5 co-op play, LoL, etc.) Same with the teams forming or going.
I think you give a positive message, but it seems like the only meaningful part of your message is that friendship and community are more important than the game. Then you're saying SC2 doesn't really matter, and you support us watching LoL or playing Diablo 3, or playing some role playing game as much as anything else. For that matter, including joining a chess club or a tennis club in this list would be equivalent in terms of what you are saying are crucial. If we keep going, what you're basically arguing for is that its good to socialize, which extends far beyond gaming and is almost the principal basis for enjoying life itself, which has nothing at all to do with e-sports!
So...I agree, but I feel your message is extremely generalizable, to the point where it has very little to do with gaming at all. The whole point here...is that we congregate, and talk to each other, around something we *enjoy* doing. Like everyone watching a movie they love, or playing a board game they love, or going biking on a coastline. That is the whole point of these discussions...that people want to experience a game like Starcraft that they all love to play together, but they're finding that they can't based on how its designed, and its a bit depressing. Telling them that that aspect is not important, or superficial, is like arguing that choosing the type of activity you do with your friends is irrelevant so long as socializing is involved. They are *both* important
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I think that a lot of the problems the SC scene faces in general are due to the fact that it is an extremely hard game to get into, requiring a lot of practice and knowledge, so it turns off new players.
Blizzard is starting to get to this point with the new vs. AI mode in HotS, but I still don't think that's enough to keep new players interested in playing.
Blizzard should either direct new players to Day9 dailies or Apollo's tutorials, or make something like those themselves; this would help guide new players since I have a feeling a lot of them don't know where to start.
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smaller but better community is the future. not bad.
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On March 12 2013 12:16 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2013 07:52 MattBarry wrote:On March 11 2013 20:09 FreakyDroid wrote:
I find the game still interesting as a spectator, but only if I take rather long breaks from it, say 2-3 months and then go back to it. I think the main reason why my interest isnt constant is because the game changes so slowly, if I see 5 pvz's, chances are the next games I see in the upcoming months will be very similar to those 5, so it feels like watching reruns of those 5 games. Same goes for the other matchups. Maybe what I just said seems stupid to some of you, but thats how it feels to me.
Interestingly, compared to broodwar, these shifts in the meta are quite fast but the viewing experience isnt as exciting. Cant really pinpoint the reason for this, but my best guess is that this is due to oversaturation in the sc2 scene: I consume too much in a short period of time that I get tired of it, dunno if that makes sense. Another thing that really bugs me is the map pools, or rather the lack of map rotations, its always the same maps, when I see Entombed Valley, Daybreak or Antiga it makes me wanna pull me hair out. When ProLeague came out with new maps it reignited the same passion I had 2 years ago, I even started playing the game again.
Don't have any closing thoughts except that, in my personal experience what keeps me interested in something is constant changes. 2011 SC2, the meta game was changing so rapidly. Most exciting time in WoL imo. I'm super excited for HotS because it's going to be like the magical 2011 WoL times imo it'll be a lot better due to a better map pool and hopefully blizzard doesn't let any sort of composition (like bl/corr/infestor and how sky toss is looking in zvp) not be overpowered for to long. One thing that I feel really killed wol was the bl/corr/infestor composition in terms of enjoyment anyway. It wasn't dead, far from it but you could tell people were getting bored (especially playing as zerg got super boring since it was the only way to win consistently.) Also to address Avilo's comment bl/corr/infestor wasn't a problem until may of 2012 (this is when the queen patch came and this is when zvt balance shifted from terran to zerg favored). All before that tvz was slightly terran favored almost the whole time (some parts being very terran favored as we all remember :D). zvp it didn't start becoming so strong that they couldn't deal with it until about the same time as well, maybe a couple months later. Once all zergs started spreading bl's and stuff wasn't until about may-july of 2012 so didn't become a serious problem until then.
The map pool and really a problem for late WoL and people do not focus on this enough. The fact that Daybreak is still on the ladder breaks my heart. The easy to take three bases seemed like it would lead to awesome games, but all it did was slow the game down to a crawl.
The worst part is the community is partly to blame, since we asked for larger maps and more macro games. Every time I saw a new map with comments like "OMG, how will I take a third base." I had hopes for more exciting early games. But sadly, those maps did not last.
I hope in HotS we respond to "OMG, how do I take a third base" with "I don't know, figure it out like everyone else".
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Of course the game will continue to be played as an esport for likely another 5 years. But the game that people imagined SC2 could be never materialized. In that sense, the hope that surrounded the game is dead. I would point to:
1.) The metagame has been stagnant for a year now. The small handful of new HOTS units will help for a moment, but there's no telling how many people have been put off for good.
2.) Koreans dominating foreign tournaments has dealt a fatal blow to foreign spectator interest in the game. Only hardcore players can follow the Korean personalities.
3.) A not insignificant part of the initial enthusiasm for SC2 was the dream it promised kids of being able to making a living playing video games. But with Koreans soaking up nearly all the major tournament prize money, foreigners have grown discouraged. I think it's been over a year since I've seen an "I want to take time off school to be a progamer" blog post.
4.) If Korean audiences had embraced the game as expected, then the game could've fallen back on that after foreign enthusiasm dried up. That never happened.
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On March 11 2013 15:59 LuckyFool wrote:
To have such a passion for a game and to have such a tight knit community form around such a game was unlike anything I'd seen before.
Today we have league of legends and dota2. Starcraft is so boring in comparaison. The game, even at pro-level, is a (1-2)-base push or they go in lategame and win with deathball.
The Esport is dying because the people just realise the reality.
+ Show Spoiler +I saw broodlord infestor during 2 y. Such a bad game.
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On March 13 2013 04:07 Gyro_SC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 15:59 LuckyFool wrote:
To have such a passion for a game and to have such a tight knit community form around such a game was unlike anything I'd seen before. Today we have league of legends and dota2. Starcraft is so boring in comparaison. The game, even at pro-level, is a (1-2)-base push or they go in lategame and win with deathball. The Esport is dying because the people just realise the reality.
Opinions. I've watched a lot of LoL and I'm a big fan, but nothing has ever come close to 2011 SC2. Every single tournament players would come with a new, sometimes completely game breaking outlook on a matchup, it was so fascinating to watch. Even early 2012 with the MKP and DRG rivalry was so exciting to watch. The queen patch completely stopped meta game development, I won't mention balance at all, but with e exception of a few timing pushes here and there, meta game development died for all vs. Z matchups because there was a single way for Zerg to win and god was it boring to do, watch, and play against.
If you really think BL/infestor was a thing for 2 years you have whatever the opposite of rose-tinted glasses is (shit-tinted glasses?)
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On March 13 2013 04:07 Gyro_SC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 15:59 LuckyFool wrote:
To have such a passion for a game and to have such a tight knit community form around such a game was unlike anything I'd seen before. Today we have league of legends and dota2. Starcraft is so boring in comparaison. The game, even at pro-level, is a (1-2)-base push or they go in lategame and win with deathball. The Esport is dying because the people just realise the reality. + Show Spoiler +I saw broodlord infestor during 2 y. Such a bad game.
Esports got a lot better when the community stopped listening to trolls who just saying the game is dying, over and over and over. We will be even better once those troll realize on one cares and they move on to bother another community.
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OP, while it's great that you have a positive outlook and have that "persistent pioneer" attitude injected into you by hollywood, some things just follow their own course regardless of what you or others do.
Did someone have to make the speech you just gave constantly to keep brood war alive? No. In fact, not much effort had to be made because the game was just well designed to the core, and people didn't have to strain to enjoy it. There was a natural passion there that didn't require bouts of motivation. We just enjoyed it effortlessly without having the community to coax us to enjoy it. The community that formed was simply a natural effect of people coming together who already liked the game before meeting one another.
On the other hand, something I've been noticing with starcraft 2, is that fans seem to constantly try to remind themselves how esports is "still alive" and need to constantly urge other to participate in the community to keep the enthusiasm up. I don't remember there ever being fears of "esports dying" when OSL and MSL were up and running. Right now, it all just seems like a lot of these people are desperately straining to get others to enjoy it just so they can enjoy it themselves. If the game was so fun to watch and play, why the hell does this need to happen? If you need others to be excited just to be excited yourself, then the issue is with the game itself, not the viewers. In the end, this is an escape for most people. If you have to strain to enjoy an "escape", then it kind of defeats its purpose doesn't it?
In all honesty, blog posts like these upset me because it just feeds my fear that esports really is dying because fans such as yourself feel the need to say this at all. We shouldn't turn the relationship between the game and its fans into one of those sad couples who have to strain to enjoy time together and constantly grasp for reasons why they should be with the other. Positivity becomes toxic if it smothers the truth and forces everyone involved to lead a delusional, quietly desperate existence.
Passion should be effortless, and the community shouldn't have to try so hard to help keep it alive. Just let HOTS esports run its natural course. If it's a good game, then there's nothing we have to do or worry about. Otherwise, just let it be and move on.
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edit:
EpiK, i agree with almost everything you said, but i dont think that these blogs popping up mean that sc2 is dying. sc2 may not be as good as scbw, and perhaps the people who complain about starcraft dying have a point. but even if things arent great, and people really do need to constantly talk and argue about keeping starcraft alive, but maybe it works.
the community tries hard to "keep sc2 alive" because we care about it, and thats something that will never lead to a "quietly desperate existence"
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One thing that'd make me happy with sc2 vanishing from the surface of earth, is that I wouldn't be forced to watch every single mediocre white player thinking he is good because... because I don't know, I mean for instance TLO, although looks like a nice guy, is the stereotype of the players I don't know want to hear about / watch that arrived with sc2.
edit : I found the word, I hate above all "community players/progamers".
I really do.
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On March 13 2013 06:20 EpiK wrote:
OP, while it's great that you have a positive outlook and have that "persistent pioneer" attitude injected into you by hollywood, some things just follow their own course regardless of what you or others do.
Did someone have to make the speech you just gave constantly to keep brood war alive? No. In fact, not much effort had to be made because the game was just well designed to the core, and people didn't have to strain to enjoy it. There was a natural passion there that didn't require bouts of motivation. We just enjoyed it effortlessly without having the community to coax us to enjoy it. The community that formed was simply a natural effect of people coming together who already liked the game before meeting one another.
On the other hand, something I've been noticing with starcraft 2, is that fans seem to constantly try to remind themselves how esports is "still alive" and need to constantly urge other to participate in the community to keep the enthusiasm up. I don't remember there ever being fears of "esports dying" when OSL and MSL were up and running. Right now, it all just seems like a lot of these people are desperately straining to get others to enjoy it just so they can enjoy it themselves. If the game was so fun to watch and play, why the hell does this need to happen? If you need others to be excited just to be excited yourself, then the issue is with the game itself, not the viewers. In the end, this is an escape for most people. If you have to strain to enjoy an "escape", then it kind of defeats its purpose doesn't it?
In all honesty, blog posts like these upset me because it just feeds my fear that esports really is dying because fans such as yourself feel the need to say this at all. We shouldn't turn the relationship between the game and its fans into one of those sad couples who have to strain to enjoy time together and constantly grasp for reasons why they should be with the other. Positivity becomes toxic if it smothers the truth and forces everyone involved to lead a delusional, quietly desperate existence.
Passion should be effortless, and the community shouldn't have to try so hard to help keep it alive. Just let HOTS esports run its natural course. If it's a good game, then there's nothing we have to do or worry about. Otherwise, just let it be and move on.
While I agree with you regarding the BW/SC2 dynamic, I think the big point of the blog post is that some people truly do not have to strain to "enjoy SC2". Meanwhile we are here belittling and dragging down their enjoyment by constantly whining about how much things suck in SC2.
I too hate it when people make "Support ESPORTS/Fight for ESPORTS" posts. But this one is more of a: If you are starting to lose enjoyment in watching esports, don't ruin it for the rest of them. Even if you feel they are blissfully ignorant and should be educated about how much better it "used to be".
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On March 12 2013 20:04 d3_crescentia wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2013 16:30 LuckyFool wrote:
The blog I spoke of last night had turned into such a convoluted mess I realized after taking a step back and asking myself what the larger picture really was, and what I really thought was going on...I realized my answer was 360 degrees different.
After getting over that mental roadblock this seemed to pop out of nowhere in less than half the time. Effortlessly too, Without having to make any edits or changes whatsoever. Can't remember EVER writing anything in recent times that came out as easily as this. you know rob turning 360 degrees in place just leaves you facing the same direction you were looking at originally just sayin'
Not if you're a USB cable
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On March 13 2013 23:06 LaLuSh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 06:20 EpiK wrote:
OP, while it's great that you have a positive outlook and have that "persistent pioneer" attitude injected into you by hollywood, some things just follow their own course regardless of what you or others do.
Did someone have to make the speech you just gave constantly to keep brood war alive? No. In fact, not much effort had to be made because the game was just well designed to the core, and people didn't have to strain to enjoy it. There was a natural passion there that didn't require bouts of motivation. We just enjoyed it effortlessly without having the community to coax us to enjoy it. The community that formed was simply a natural effect of people coming together who already liked the game before meeting one another.
On the other hand, something I've been noticing with starcraft 2, is that fans seem to constantly try to remind themselves how esports is "still alive" and need to constantly urge other to participate in the community to keep the enthusiasm up. I don't remember there ever being fears of "esports dying" when OSL and MSL were up and running. Right now, it all just seems like a lot of these people are desperately straining to get others to enjoy it just so they can enjoy it themselves. If the game was so fun to watch and play, why the hell does this need to happen? If you need others to be excited just to be excited yourself, then the issue is with the game itself, not the viewers. In the end, this is an escape for most people. If you have to strain to enjoy an "escape", then it kind of defeats its purpose doesn't it?
In all honesty, blog posts like these upset me because it just feeds my fear that esports really is dying because fans such as yourself feel the need to say this at all. We shouldn't turn the relationship between the game and its fans into one of those sad couples who have to strain to enjoy time together and constantly grasp for reasons why they should be with the other. Positivity becomes toxic if it smothers the truth and forces everyone involved to lead a delusional, quietly desperate existence.
Passion should be effortless, and the community shouldn't have to try so hard to help keep it alive. Just let HOTS esports run its natural course. If it's a good game, then there's nothing we have to do or worry about. Otherwise, just let it be and move on.
While I agree with you regarding the BW/SC2 dynamic, I think the big point of the blog post is that some people truly do not have to strain to "enjoy SC2". Meanwhile we are here belittling and dragging down their enjoyment by constantly whining about how much things suck in SC2. I too hate it when people make "Support ESPORTS/Fight for ESPORTS" posts. But this one is more of a: If you are starting to lose enjoyment in watching esports, don't ruin it for the rest of them. Even if you feel they are blissfully ignorant and should be educated about how much better it "used to be".
It takes special kind of arrogance to tell someone that what they are enjoying is terrible and the way things used to be were much better. It is something that people would never do an in-person setting, but feel the need to do in online communities. I have two friends to love LoL over all other games and I don't try to tell them how much better Dota2 is.
One of the biggest burdens for SC2 has been the old BW followers who feel the need to constantly drag down the community by "reminding" everyone that SC2 is "worse" than BW. There are plenty of members of TL who just love to watch SC2, including myself. I don't really care to compair the two games, much like I don't compair many game with others that are 10 years older. BW is not my game and I don't need someone dropping in a side comment about BW in the middle of an announcment thread.
Right now, EG-TL just announced that they are working with Coach Park in PL. And like sun, a small group of BW fans have jumped into that thread saying that its terrible that EG "stole" Park. What should be exciting, fun and great for one group of people is being dragged down by another. Its like if they can't have the Starcraft they want, no one can.
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On March 14 2013 01:56 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 23:06 LaLuSh wrote:On March 13 2013 06:20 EpiK wrote:
OP, while it's great that you have a positive outlook and have that "persistent pioneer" attitude injected into you by hollywood, some things just follow their own course regardless of what you or others do.
Did someone have to make the speech you just gave constantly to keep brood war alive? No. In fact, not much effort had to be made because the game was just well designed to the core, and people didn't have to strain to enjoy it. There was a natural passion there that didn't require bouts of motivation. We just enjoyed it effortlessly without having the community to coax us to enjoy it. The community that formed was simply a natural effect of people coming together who already liked the game before meeting one another.
On the other hand, something I've been noticing with starcraft 2, is that fans seem to constantly try to remind themselves how esports is "still alive" and need to constantly urge other to participate in the community to keep the enthusiasm up. I don't remember there ever being fears of "esports dying" when OSL and MSL were up and running. Right now, it all just seems like a lot of these people are desperately straining to get others to enjoy it just so they can enjoy it themselves. If the game was so fun to watch and play, why the hell does this need to happen? If you need others to be excited just to be excited yourself, then the issue is with the game itself, not the viewers. In the end, this is an escape for most people. If you have to strain to enjoy an "escape", then it kind of defeats its purpose doesn't it?
In all honesty, blog posts like these upset me because it just feeds my fear that esports really is dying because fans such as yourself feel the need to say this at all. We shouldn't turn the relationship between the game and its fans into one of those sad couples who have to strain to enjoy time together and constantly grasp for reasons why they should be with the other. Positivity becomes toxic if it smothers the truth and forces everyone involved to lead a delusional, quietly desperate existence.
Passion should be effortless, and the community shouldn't have to try so hard to help keep it alive. Just let HOTS esports run its natural course. If it's a good game, then there's nothing we have to do or worry about. Otherwise, just let it be and move on.
While I agree with you regarding the BW/SC2 dynamic, I think the big point of the blog post is that some people truly do not have to strain to "enjoy SC2". Meanwhile we are here belittling and dragging down their enjoyment by constantly whining about how much things suck in SC2. I too hate it when people make "Support ESPORTS/Fight for ESPORTS" posts. But this one is more of a: If you are starting to lose enjoyment in watching esports, don't ruin it for the rest of them. Even if you feel they are blissfully ignorant and should be educated about how much better it "used to be". It takes special kind of arrogance to tell someone that what they are enjoying is terrible and the way things used to be were much better. It is something that people would never do an in-person setting, but feel the need to do in online communities. I have two friends to love LoL over all other games and I don't try to tell them how much better Dota2 is. One of the biggest burdens for SC2 has been the old BW followers who feel the need to constantly drag down the community by "reminding" everyone that SC2 is "worse" than BW. There are plenty of members of TL who just love to watch SC2, including myself. I don't really care to compair the two games, much like I don't compair many game with others that are 10 years older. BW is not my game and I don't need someone dropping in a side comment about BW in the middle of an announcment thread. Right now, EG-TL just announced that they are working with Coach Park in PL. And like sun, a small group of BW fans have jumped into that thread saying that its terrible that EG "stole" Park. What should be exciting, fun and great for one group of people is being dragged down by another. Its like if they can't have the Starcraft they want, no one can.
I often bash on sc2 but what you're describing is the attitude of internet fanboys.
I see BW as a form of art, whereas I see sc2 as a plain video game.
That's the only reason.
I for one, on the other hand, hope everyone in pro gaming can make a living out of it and I think EG-TL hiring sk coach is a pretty fucking legendary move.
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EPT
