• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 10:49
CET 16:49
KST 00:49
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Rongyi Cup S3 - RO16 Preview3herO wins SC2 All-Star Invitational12SC2 All-Star Invitational: Tournament Preview5RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0
Community News
Weekly Cups (Jan 12-18): herO, MaxPax, Solar win0BSL Season 2025 - Full Overview and Conclusion8Weekly Cups (Jan 5-11): Clem wins big offline, Trigger upsets4$21,000 Rongyi Cup Season 3 announced (Jan 22-Feb 7)24Weekly Cups (Dec 29-Jan 4): Protoss rolls, 2v2 returns7
StarCraft 2
General
PhD study /w SC2 - help with a survey! herO wins SC2 All-Star Invitational Oliveira Would Have Returned If EWC Continued StarCraft 2 not at the Esports World Cup 2026 [Short Story] The Last GSL
Tourneys
$21,000 Rongyi Cup Season 3 announced (Jan 22-Feb 7) OSC Season 13 World Championship $70 Prize Pool Ladder Legends Academy Weekly Open! SC2 All-Star Invitational: Jan 17-18 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[A] Starcraft Sound Mod
External Content
Mutation # 509 Doomsday Report Mutation # 508 Violent Night Mutation # 507 Well Trained Mutation # 506 Warp Zone
Brood War
General
[ASL21] Potential Map Candidates Gypsy to Korea BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Fantasy's Q&A video BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues Azhi's Colosseum - Season 2 Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL21] Non-Korean Championship - Starts Jan 10
Strategy
Current Meta Simple Questions, Simple Answers Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2 Game Theory for Starcraft
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Beyond All Reason Awesome Games Done Quick 2026!
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread NASA and the Private Sector
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club! The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
How Esports Advertising Shap…
TrAiDoS
My 2025 Magic: The Gathering…
DARKING
Life Update and thoughts.
FuDDx
How do archons sleep?
8882
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1574 users

Painfully High APM

Blogs > Erik.TheRed
Post a Reply
Erik.TheRed
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1655 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-04 03:39:14
March 04 2013 03:05 GMT
#1
So now that the HOTS beta is officially over I've been thinking about how to spend the next two weeks improving my play and also getting ready for the HOTS launch. I want to stay in shape because CSL qualifiers will be coming up pretty soon, and there are a few things about my play that have been bothering me for a while.


http://i.imgur.com/4ajEQQ6.png

http://i.imgur.com/XFuGKFt.png

The large discrepancy between my APM and EAPM (about 40-50% redundancy with ~240 APM and ~130 EAPM) is something that I suspect may be very problematic. When I watch my stream VODs I notice that although I am usually very accurate with my mouse clicks and also very organized with my hotkeys, but I do a lot of spamming of the same command (a-move, build structure, etc) a few times in a row which sometimes leads to the whole command getting messed up and overwritten by some spam. These interruptions happen much less frequently when I'm doing a build that I know extremely well so I've noticed that a lot of my wins and most solid play comes from having better mechanics than my opponent while executing such builds-- rather than actually outsmarting someone. In most games I don't think too much about what I'm doing (unless I'm trying to memorize a new build) and I usually do most of my analysis and decision making in between games.

http://www.twitch.tv/eriktheredtv/c/1986475 -- I have 270 APM in this 15 min game (135 EAPM, so about HALF of my actions were redundant), I kill a few of my own stalkers, float money on 3 bases, try to perform a flank with a small army vs an army with no splash... overall I was just playing on auto-pilot as usual -- and making some bad decisions that I would never agree with if I was thinking clearly.

My hypothesis is that the constant spam is preventing me from making informed scouting decisions and decisive movements with my army which leads to a lot of games where I'm completely outplaying my opponent for a while and then the next thing I know I'm getting surrounded with a 120 food army in the middle of the map ("WHY THE FUCK AM I OUT HERE"). Another bit of anectodtal evidence that might support this is that I almost always go on a win streak (~10 games won in a row) if I have a beer and chill out a bit before a ladder session. Probably just a coincidence, but I definitely play slower and make more decisive clicks in such cases.

Another reason that this is on my mind is that today I noticed some pain in my left hand, about where my thumb and hand are connected. I've had the same kind of pain last summer when I was playing a ton of SC2. When that happened I just rearranged some hotkeys and moved my keyboard a bit and the pain went away completely until now. It seems that the exact pain is caused by a spamming pattern that I do a lot (especially at the beginning of a game) where I tap the spacebar with my outstretched thumb (base camera) while quickly hitting 2/3/4 with my fingers.

That being said, I've tried to deliberately lower my spam APM before but it always creeps back in once the game gets to a certain point. It's literally ingrained into my mechanics so getting rid of it without lowering my EAPM or worsening other parts of my play might be difficult. However, I'm willing to spend the next two weeks doing whatever I need to fix some of these issues so I can start HOTS feeling and playing a lot better.

A few of additional tricks I plan on trying (I'll let you guys know how they work out)

-Cut the music (or listen to something more ambient)
-I think a lot of the time I subconsciously play along with the rythm of the music (especially if it's rock or techno) which is not necessarily conducive to what I need to be doing at the moment.

- "Spam" more with my brain and less with my hands (AKA think about shit while playing)
-This works when I talk and play at the same time since I'm forcing myself to think through all of my actions. However, most of the times that I've tried this I just go into auto-pilot after a certain point.

- Less red bull, more beer
-Often times I'll drink some tea or energy drink before a practice session and I have a good feeling that the excess energy gets turned into APM spam more often than not. Probably not actually going to drink beer while playing though since I'd like to make the best decisions I'm capable of

-Practice reactive macro styles where it's less likely I'm going to go into auto-pilot. If I'm playing a game more reliant on scouting, then I'll need to slow down and think about what I'm doing (even if my mechanics slips it will be good practice in the long run).

-Offrace? Perhaps playing with a different race will force me away from going into autopilot and thinking more/ spamming less. However there's no guarantee that I won't just go back into the old habits upon playing Protoss again.

That's it for now, but if you guys have any insights or ideas then please share them. It's quite possible that I'm over-analyzing here but I think a lot of these points make sense when you consider that they have been constant trends throughout my play for over a year.


TLDR: I'm bad at this game (but I like pressing buttons)

***
"See you space cowboy"
MysteryMeat1
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States3292 Posts
March 04 2013 03:21 GMT
#2
i think i need to cut the music as well. Ive been on a massive 2 week long losing streak since i started listening
"Cause ya know, Style before victory." -The greatest mafia player alive
rusedeguerre
Profile Blog Joined February 2013
121 Posts
March 04 2013 03:25 GMT
#3
Nice blog, I enjoyed reading. I agree with most of your points, except "less red bull, more beer." You should be mixing alcohol with your red bull to get maximum effect.
Some would say that hydrogen cyanide is a delicious and necessary part of the human diet, but others claim it is a toxic and dangerous substance. The truth must therefore be somewhere in between.
RiceAgainst
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States1849 Posts
March 04 2013 03:30 GMT
#4
Hmm, I don't really know what to say. I somewhat had a similar problem where I emphasized more APM and had terrible decision making and focus. Recently, I've been playing a lot slower but went on to win ~80% of my games (lowering now, though, since I got promoted). The way I had myself slow down was...not playing. Just thinking about the game, but not playing. Thing is, it may make you a lot worse before you get better.
Erik.TheRed
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1655 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-04 03:38:26
March 04 2013 03:37 GMT
#5
On March 04 2013 12:30 RiceAgainst wrote:
Hmm, I don't really know what to say. I somewhat had a similar problem where I emphasized more APM and had terrible decision making and focus. Recently, I've been playing a lot slower but went on to win ~80% of my games (lowering now, though, since I got promoted). The way I had myself slow down was...not playing. Just thinking about the game, but not playing. Thing is, it may make you a lot worse before you get better.


Yeah, it's similar to how Yoda said you must unlearn what you have learned to improve. I don't have my HOTS replays in sc2gears at the moment but I'm fairly sure that I was playing slower and better in those games since my WoL builds were not so useful and I was having to think critically a lot more overall. I was getting supply blocked quite a bit and having my macro slip much more frequently than I'm used to, but I think that might have been a step in the right direction. For the time being I'm just not going to worry about ladder points or win/loss at all in WoL and just try and focus on making better decisions in game and consciously slowing myself down.
"See you space cowboy"
EtherealDeath
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States8366 Posts
March 04 2013 03:51 GMT
#6
I played terran/zerg for a few months then back to protoss, my redundancy was down. But really, somehow redundancy is naturally more likely to be higher with protoss. My redundancy with terran/zerg was always in the 30s or low 40s without even trying to keep it low, and the apm was higher. Might just be a side effect of the race.
FlaShFTW
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States10276 Posts
March 04 2013 05:35 GMT
#7
On March 04 2013 12:37 Erik.TheRed wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 04 2013 12:30 RiceAgainst wrote:
Hmm, I don't really know what to say. I somewhat had a similar problem where I emphasized more APM and had terrible decision making and focus. Recently, I've been playing a lot slower but went on to win ~80% of my games (lowering now, though, since I got promoted). The way I had myself slow down was...not playing. Just thinking about the game, but not playing. Thing is, it may make you a lot worse before you get better.


Yeah, it's similar to how Yoda said you must unlearn what you have learned to improve. I don't have my HOTS replays in sc2gears at the moment but I'm fairly sure that I was playing slower and better in those games since my WoL builds were not so useful and I was having to think critically a lot more overall. I was getting supply blocked quite a bit and having my macro slip much more frequently than I'm used to, but I think that might have been a step in the right direction. For the time being I'm just not going to worry about ladder points or win/loss at all in WoL and just try and focus on making better decisions in game and consciously slowing myself down.

this is actually true. destiny was stuck at like 1400 elo after learning to help teammates and do objectives in solo queue for LoL. after he learned from doublelift to unlearn that and fuck objectives and only farm as adc, well he still kinda helps teammates, but unlearning allowed him to break the barrier and get him to the league and skill that he is today.
Writer#1 KT and FlaSh Fanboy || Woo Jung Ho Never Forget || Teamliquid Political Decision Desk
TL+ Member
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12676 Posts
March 04 2013 05:48 GMT
#8
though you are at higher league than me, but I think I can offer some insight.

Your attention is far more important than APM.
For example, as long as you can deal with the drop incoming, whether you use 300 apm to select the army to defend it, or 20 apm, the result would be the same. However, those 280apm excess doesn't mean they are wasted, they might be apm to keep your tempo up.
However if you spent 300 apm but takes LONGER (in terms of time) to deal with that drop, then it is just pure inefficient apm.

I generally think a higher apm available in the same given time is a better thing because you can relocate the apm later on elsewhere.
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
sGs.FroZen
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
United States38 Posts
March 04 2013 08:17 GMT
#9
I love pressing buttons as well.
Starcraft should never fall.
ktimekiller
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States690 Posts
March 04 2013 10:47 GMT
#10
I will agree with the opponent in your stream vod and say that your name is indeed awesome.
LML
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
Germany1774 Posts
March 04 2013 11:41 GMT
#11
imo the auto-pilot is exactly what you need and need to improve on.
The auto-pilot is the foundation to good play. You need to have micro, macro, scouting all in your system, when all this goes automatically you have more time to focus on the strategic point, i.e. what units to make to counter your opponent's composition the best, where to attack, etc.
LML
Erik.TheRed
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1655 Posts
March 04 2013 17:45 GMT
#12
On March 04 2013 20:41 LML wrote:
imo the auto-pilot is exactly what you need and need to improve on.
The auto-pilot is the foundation to good play. You need to have micro, macro, scouting all in your system, when all this goes automatically you have more time to focus on the strategic point, i.e. what units to make to counter your opponent's composition the best, where to attack, etc.


Yeah, that makes sense. For some reason though I just tend to zone out instead of thinking so I guess that's primarily what I should work on. Maybe I'll stream with some commentary to force myself into thinking through decisions as I'm talking about them out loud.
"See you space cowboy"
ihOpe
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
192 Posts
March 04 2013 22:51 GMT
#13
lol I only use the spacebar when I type. UHHHH if you drink tea/energy booster before you play, you are 99% going to crash after a while compared to if you just drink water. Water is the best way to stay hydrated and to keep your mind fresh. It is also the healthiest for you and the most direct source of hydration you can get
terran hots stream ---> http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/iheartEDM
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL 21
15:00
NKorea Champ Playoff Final Day
Mihu vs XuanXuan
Bonyth vs Dewalt
ZZZero.O223
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
IndyStarCraft 293
SteadfastSC 219
Rex 143
ProTech140
StarCraft: Brood War
Rain 3644
Sea 3228
Shuttle 1560
Jaedong 1235
Larva 842
EffOrt 798
Mini 683
Stork 601
BeSt 468
hero 388
[ Show more ]
Hyuk 313
Light 293
actioN 282
firebathero 265
ZZZero.O 223
GuemChi 216
ggaemo 203
ZerO 198
Killer 168
Rush 150
Hyun 101
Barracks 93
Mong 81
Soulkey 64
Sharp 61
Sea.KH 56
Mind 56
Shinee 34
Yoon 32
Hm[arnc] 31
Backho 27
Free 23
sorry 22
HiyA 20
soO 19
Shine 16
Rock 15
Noble 13
JulyZerg 12
Terrorterran 9
Dota 2
Gorgc3324
singsing2617
qojqva2544
420jenkins1002
syndereN415
LuMiX1
Counter-Strike
fl0m2713
kennyS1392
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King63
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor455
Other Games
Liquid`RaSZi1629
B2W.Neo1550
DeMusliM237
XaKoH 119
ZerO(Twitch)16
Organizations
Other Games
EGCTV1340
StarCraft: Brood War
Kim Chul Min (afreeca) 17
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• HeavenSC 1
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos2982
• TFBlade1128
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
8h 12m
Wardi Open
22h 12m
Monday Night Weeklies
1d 1h
OSC
1d 8h
Replay Cast
1d 17h
WardiTV Invitational
1d 22h
Replay Cast
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
HomeStory Cup
4 days
[ Show More ]
Korean StarCraft League
5 days
HomeStory Cup
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
HomeStory Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-01-24
OSC Championship Season 13
Tektek Cup #1

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Acropolis #4 - TS4
Rongyi Cup S3
Underdog Cup #3
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S1: W6
Escore Tournament S1: W7
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Nations Cup 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.