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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
You know, it's strange, but right around the time I started working on what later became the Apple I board, this idea popped into my mind about two guys who die on the same day. One guy is really successful, and he's spending all his time running companies, managing them, making sure they are profitable, and making sales goals all the time. And the other guy, all he does is lounge around, doesn't have much money, really likes to tell jokes and follow gadgets and technology and other things he finds interesting in the world, and he just spends his life laughing.
In my head, the guy who'd rather laugh than control things is going to be the one who has the happier life. That's just my opinion. I figure happiness is the most important thing in life, just how much you laugh. The guy whose head kind of floats, he's so happy. That's who I am, who I wan tto be and have always wanted to be.
-- Steve Wozniak in "iWoz"
So much of our world is driven by money; by power; by trophies of metal and paper. Many of even the brightest and strongest of our peers seem blinded by the gleaming glamour of these tokens of accomplishment, unable to shake themselves away from the grip of greed. At times it even appears that the more capable a person is, the more these trophies enter her reach, and the more inescapable the pursuit becomes.
In such a world, it takes immense courage to defy the standard barometers of society. As creatures, we are evolutionarily predisposed to one upping the Joneses. Our chemical feedback loops grind against our capacity for reason, making sure that any deviation from this race is temporary. Even when we both instinctively and rationally know that this competitive, over-optimizing, and overachieving behavior runs counter to our overall happiness, we find it immensely difficult to "forfeight" the match.
In fact the most potent recipe is a person with great ability but without a corresponding strength of purpose and passion. With the way we promote competition and adherence to a standard curriculum for the best of our youth today, it is small wonder that our postsecondary academic pursuits and subsequent professional "aspirations" become dominated by the influences of our particular institution of attendance (how many of us actually considered the dominant industries that recruit at our college of choice when applying?). If a student attends Stanford, chances are she will study engineering and enter the tech sector. If a student attends Princeton, odds are that she will study economics and enter the finance industry. If we are accustomed to following our immediate surroundings' norms for academic and professional choices and priorities, then our long-term motives will naturally be defined by those of our peers as well.
It is only those with immense confidence in their desires, objectives, and self-worth, that can rebuff society's edicts for "what (supposedly) matters most". I have immense respect and admiration for those whose lives are an embodiment of their passions and interests -- those who radiate a unique aura of conviction and purpose with every word they speak and every step (both literally and figuratively) they take. They are, simply, rare.
But to those rare souls with the inner strength and conviction to defy the world's dogma: you are an inspiration.
Crosspost: http://www.hkmurakami.com/blog/
  
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I am bit puzzled by this blog. You start with a quote about happiness where Wozniak contraposes pleasure with.. I guess achievement or personal success and says (because he doesn't argue, he just says it) that the former is better, but then you seem to abandon talk about happiness and instead you start discussing not getting stuck up on out-doing others (i.e. comparing yourself with others) and not following standard pre-laid out plans, but to rather just follow your passion instead and to break society's idea of "what matters most". I guess I see the point, but the second guy from Wozniak's quote stands a bit in a contrast to your eulogy on passion. A guy who "likes to tell jokes", "follow[s] gadgets and technology" and "just spends his life laughing" is not really an "embodiment of their passions and interests" who radiates purpose and so on.
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According to this,
About 70 percent of our students graduate in a major different from the one they indicated on their admission application. We think this is exactly the right approach. We expect that students will explore their intellectual interests, and we want them to follow their passions, wherever they may lead them.
so I'm not exactly sure your point about farm schools makes sense with Princeton as an example, and although I can see why you'd admire Wozniak, as I certainly do, I don't really see your point in regards to ignoring wealth and following passion. Wozniak, amongst the other select "Silicon Valley" pioneers, ran into a perfect storm; the world was ready and waiting for something revolutionary to come about, and Wozniak's passion in computing fit the bill. What about the passionate whose passion does not inspire a cultural revolution? What about the passionate who are unable to pursue their dreams because, unlike Wozniak, they did not and do not have the means to ignore more basic needs? Money and popular acceptance make "inner strength and conviction" oh so much easier to act on.
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I agree with all of the OP's sentiments. However, I think myself and most people also have a deep desire for the 'perfect' family, loving spouse, successful kids. In order to get this, one has to run the rat race, gaining paper and metal trophies.
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I also see some inconsistency between the qoute and the blog. From these two, I relate myself much more to the qoute. I really wouldn't say that I radiate inner strength or whatever, but I do, as a matter of fact, live a very happy life.
How do I do that? The first and main reason is obviously that 10 years ago I got incredibly lucky have found a girl, who later became my wife and shares, for a large part, my view on the world and how our life should be. That is one thing that really has to be said first, because that has greatly contributed to my freedom - not having to act stupidly in trying to "attract" someone frees a guy a lot and it would be hypocritical to desrcibe my life without saying that. Also an important observation is that neither do I or does my wife want to have children and not having a responsibility for anyone clears one's hands a lot too.
The main concept that I have developed in my life is a complete lack of goals related to career, wealth or acheivements. The only thing I wish is to enjoy myself and for me and my wife to be happy. A focal point in pursuit of this is the realisation that we don't really need that much money to achieve that. Actually, I find it hard to comprehend, how much money other people seem to need, while apparently "generating" much less happiness than we do. What do you need a big house for? Or an expensive car? (That is one point that completely eludes me, when my car that I bought for $1000 can reliably transport me 6000 km around Europe in one week, what makes other people by cars for 20 times the price?) But still, there are so many people around me that seem smart and everything, yet they have somehow created these absolutely irrational mindblocks about "needing" some absolutely useless stuff for their lives.
So I work nominally 20 hours a week (in reality, I come and go as I wish, I only to show a result or two once in a while) as a very slow (already in 5th year) PhD student in physics (and I have taken a firm resolution that I am never going to accept a fulltime job unless the job itself is so excting that it is something I would like to to the whole day anyway) , live in a school dormitory (quite an unusal sight at my age of 30) and spend most of the time doing whatever I want at the moment. And I am the happiest I have ever been in my life.
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On January 23 2013 04:09 opisska wrote:
(That is one point that completely eludes me, when my car that I bought for $1000 can reliably transport me 6000 km around Europe in one week, what makes other people by cars for 20 times the price?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisherian_runaway
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There are plenty of people with the conviction and courage to go against the world's "dogma". Many of these people don't have the ability to translate passion into a concrete reality. Their convictions may be strong and everlasting, but their ability and intelligence is just average to below average. Raw ability + intelligence + conviction/courage is rare. Conviction + courage, not so much.
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You are completely right. Damnit, I can see this so well in my dad. Wealthy, yet I've met people who haven't even got a percentage of his wealth being much happier. Hopefully I can stray away from this path.
It is only those with immense confidence in their desires, objectives, and self-worth, that can rebuff society's edicts for "what (supposedly) matters most". I have immense respect and admiration for those whose lives are an embodiment of their passions and interests -- those who radiate a unique aura of conviction and purpose with every word they speak and every step (both literally and figuratively) they take. They are, simply, rare.
I'd like to become such a person. But what are my passions? I don't know.
Btw: All the people I met that fit these criteria were either scientists doing research, or artists.
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I just watched an interesting documentary called "happy" which explored what makes people happy in life. They said (and I was surprised by this) that age, wealth, social status ultimately only make up 10% of our actual happiness. Over 40% is determined by choices we willingly make in more fluid areas of our life. Career/salary/age are all things we don't have as much direct control over and at the end of the day don't factor into what really makes us happy long term.
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On January 23 2013 08:53 LuckyFool wrote:
Career/salary/age are all things we don't have as much direct control over and at the end of the day don't factor into what really makes us happy long term.
I thought your career and salary were based on how hard you worked and how much you innovated? And then you use the money to buy products that make your life better? this is a very dangerous idea luckyfool
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PBS sometimes runs commercial-free documentaries about just the kind of people that inspired this blog post. Their "Independent Lens" series has focused on the likes of Kevin Clash, Elmo's puppetteer, and Wayne White, famous for his work on Pee-wee's Playhouse and also his popular style of "words in landscapes" paintings.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mF8FZg0.jpg) Wayne White next to a sculpture.
I was particularly moved by the special on Wayne White. PBS, being the awesome station it is, hosts most of their broadcast media for free online. Here's a link to the episode.
Wayne White
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Thanks for the blog (so quick)! The discussion is also quite interesting, always interesting to see a counterpoint to a blog that rings true and what have you. I do see where you guys are all coming from.
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I see what you are saying, and i think it rings true. But at the same time only if you assume the person who is lounging, living a poorer but happier life because he is acting on his own interests, rather than specifically setting themselves up to just make a bunch of money and falling into social pressure, has the money to do so.
Another way to put it is, if someone is poor, working a job they hate because they are not getting anything else, and spends their time lounging, spending what little money they have.... well, i am sure some people on this forum have had a job, full time, where 5 days a week they wake up and are not happy about what their day holds. I also feel it is like that for many people.
If someone is working a job they enjoy, doesn't have to be love, but is perfectly tolerable, makes enough to get by, and lounges and does all that stuff... then i agree. But once you reach the extremes, which i feel this quote and blog reached the extreme for the business men and rich hard workers who are unhappy. The polar opposite is just as unhappy, but they are uncomfortable at the same time.
I feel like for the poor but happier thing to ring true, it needs to be in a middle ground. Rather than looking at the high, rich, unhappy, versus the happy poor isn't true for many in the lounging poor position.
On a personal note, my goal right now is to be in a place, a job, or what have you, where i make good money so i can be happy and lounge. I am not there yet, but i dont want to be the extreme rich side either.
It all makes sense, but there needs to be pretense on how poor poor actually is.
Hope that all made sense, i am slightly brain dead at the moment. :D
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On January 23 2013 09:48 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 08:53 LuckyFool wrote:
Career/salary/age are all things we don't have as much direct control over and at the end of the day don't factor into what really makes us happy long term. I thought your career and salary were based on how hard you worked and how much you innovated? And then you use the money to buy products that make your life better? this is a very dangerous idea luckyfool
Not the way I see it at all.
Buying products only really buys temporary happiness, at the end of the day the things that should truly make us happy in life go far beyond simple possession of material goods. Of course it depends on the individual but most of this type of thinking was based off a general study. You may buy temporary happiness, sometimes it may last for a year, or years even, but is it truly lasting and fulfilling on a deeper level? A new car is only new for so long, and then you may grow restless. This is pretty normal in fact and people dismiss it. But should we spend our lives fluctuating in a state of temporary happiness? Constantly looking to fill a void that seems to never end? Or should we be working towards achieving a more rewarding and full life, aiming to truly be happy in what we do, not only with what we own but how we act.
Of course you do have control over what career path you end up going down, and you can control where you work in general, you can quit or change jobs, but the majority of people if they could would choose to not work at all, why? Because it allows you to then choose to do what YOU want which is what the study said really drives our happiness. Why do you think really rich people tend to become miserable? It's because they sacrifice so much of their life for money, or their career, working super long hours becoming slaves to a daily routine that they come to dread. They end up losing their own real freedom in life, building a prison without even realizing it for a hope or dream that won't even buy them lasting true fulfillment in life.
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I think he was making a statement about capitalism and hyperconsumerism dominating American culture as we know it today.
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Oh course the best way is to be rich AND happy. That's basically what Wozniak did.
Also if you feel passionate about what you do, that is happiness too. Steve Jobs wasn't really in it for the money.
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On January 23 2013 13:38 Aerisky wrote:
I think he was making a statement about capitalism and hyperconsumerism dominating American culture as we know it today.
yeah maybe,
I think my real point is working strictly for money thinking it will automatically lead to happiness is very dangerous.
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haha sorry lucky fool that was totally sarcastic
You're absolutely right, the Good Life has nothing to do with material wealth. Tune in, turn on, drop out 
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It's impossible to detect sarcasm on the internet sometimes. lol. D:
I'm still happy I was able to get all philosophical in my response.
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Haha yeah it was a good response man. I'm totally convinced.
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Not sure if it's entirely caused by societal expectations, more of it could just be economic constraints.
People might want to be artists, poets, philosophers, or something else. But if they can't make their work economically viable then they will have to give it up.
The over-achievement part might not be what it seems, its not that people are trying to one up eachother (although there is still a lot of that), it might be that people are forced to sprint frontward just to stay still... due to grade inflation... (due to downward pressure on wages caused by globalization).
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On January 23 2013 13:12 actionbastrd wrote:
I see what you are saying, and i think it rings true. But at the same time only if you assume the person who is lounging, living a poorer but happier life because he is acting on his own interests, rather than specifically setting themselves up to just make a bunch of money and falling into social pressure, has the money to do so.
I'm reminded of Intrigue (of this forum) who's public told us that he's never been happier in his life than his current poor, semi-unemployed, but "doing what I love" (music) and hanging out with people I like, lifestyle.
Another way to put it is, if someone is poor, working a job they hate because they are not getting anything else, and spends their time lounging, spending what little money they have.... well, i am sure some people on this forum have had a job, full time, where 5 days a week they wake up and are not happy about what their day holds. I also feel it is like that for many people.
I think part of it is driven by society's changes towards nuclear families instead of extended families or multiple generations living together. In a culture where the grandparents, parents, and adult children live together in the same house, with say, 2-3 incomes coming into the household, the monetary requirement goes way down. (I live at home with my family in the house I grew up in -- I am fortunate to have grown up on Silicon Valley where employment is not a problem -- and my living expenses are quite low as a result)
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On January 23 2013 14:32 thedeadhaji wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 13:12 actionbastrd wrote:
I see what you are saying, and i think it rings true. But at the same time only if you assume the person who is lounging, living a poorer but happier life because he is acting on his own interests, rather than specifically setting themselves up to just make a bunch of money and falling into social pressure, has the money to do so. I'm reminded of Intrigue (of this forum) who's public told us that he's never been happier in his life than his current poor, semi-unemployed, but "doing what I love" (music) and hanging out with people I like, lifestyle.
I'm doing that, and it's great. Of course I'm also a scholar, so "doing what I love" involves a lot of constructive work for my future - reading books. I really think we need to think about how to get to a system which involves a guaranteed minimum income for people to be able to pursue "long-tail" type activities rather than those which can start to pay off sooner in the career. Also, if I had student debt, doing what I'm doing would be a lot more stressful, so there's that problem.
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
By the way, I should have been more explicit about the fact that many times, a preoccupation with "keeping up with the Joneses", and living by everyone else's standards distracts us from making career and life choices that deep down, we know will help us lead a happier, more fulfilling, more satisfying life. It's not "always" the case, but there are a lot of factors in our society that pull is this way and that, inhibiting us from following that one path that (if we are so lucky) we know we want to take.
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On January 23 2013 14:50 thedeadhaji wrote:
By the way, I should have been more explicit about the fact that many times, a preoccupation with "keeping up with the Joneses", and living by everyone else's standards distracts us from making career and life choices that deep down, we know will help us lead a happier, more fulfilling, more satisfying life. It's not "always" the case, but there are a lot of factors in our society that pull is this way and that, inhibiting us from following that one path that (if we are so lucky) we know we want to take.
The unfortunate truth, though, is that many of us end up making choices that we know deep down will make us less happy - not for the sake of our own ego, or for the sake of the perception of our neighbors - but for continuing to put bread on the table, and for giving your children a better shot at having a chance at doing what they want for a living, if not only for giving them a childhood at all.
I get that the point of this blog is that all that extra stuff we buy isn't what we really need sometimes (and that Steve Wozniak specifically is exceptional for recognizing that while being as wealthy as he is), but in any discussion of expense and happiness - people need to keep in mind that there are a lot of people pursuing the less happy path not because they lack the courage and confidence to take it, but because sometimes the (very real) risk presented by going back to school, switching jobs, etc. is just not practical.
You can't always get what you want. And as much as we'd like to say "do what makes you happy", I'm sorry to say that most of the world doesn't care if you're happy or not, and it's them (not yourself) that you're going to have to convince to provide you enough income to make ends meet. The cold, hard truth of the world is that a lot of people don't like what they do for a living, and there's not surefire way to insure that you're not one of them someday.
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On January 23 2013 02:17 thedeadhaji wrote: Show nested quote + You know, it's strange, but right around the time I started working on what later became the Apple I board, this idea popped into my mind about two guys who die on the same day. One guy is really successful, and he's spending all his time running companies, managing them, making sure they are profitable, and making sales goals all the time. And the other guy, all he does is lounge around, doesn't have much money, really likes to tell jokes and follow gadgets and technology and other things he finds interesting in the world, and he just spends his life laughing.
In my head, the guy who'd rather laugh than control things is going to be the one who has the happier life. That's just my opinion. I figure happiness is the most important thing in life, just how much you laugh. The guy whose head kind of floats, he's so happy. That's who I am, who I wan tto be and have always wanted to be.
-- Steve Wozniak in "iWoz" So much of our world is driven by money; by power; by trophies of metal and paper. Many of even the brightest and strongest of our peers seem blinded by the gleaming glamour of these tokens of accomplishment, unable to shake themselves away from the grip of greed. At times it even appears that the more capable a person is, the more these trophies enter her reach, and the more inescapable the pursuit becomes. In such a world, it takes immense courage to defy the standard barometers of society. As creatures, we are evolutionarily predisposed to one upping the Joneses. Our chemical feedback loops grind against our capacity for reason, making sure that any deviation from this race is temporary. Even when we both instinctively and rationally know that this competitive, over-optimizing, and overachieving behavior runs counter to our overall happiness, we find it immensely difficult to "forfeight" the match. In fact the most potent recipe is a person with great ability but without a corresponding strength of purpose and passion. With the way we promote competition and adherence to a standard curriculum for the best of our youth today, it is small wonder that our postsecondary academic pursuits and subsequent professional "aspirations" become dominated by the influences of our particular institution of attendance (how many of us actually considered the dominant industries that recruit at our college of choice when applying?). If a student attends Stanford, chances are she will study engineering and enter the tech sector. If a student attends Princeton, odds are that she will study economics and enter the finance industry. If we are accustomed to following our immediate surroundings' norms for academic and professional choices and priorities, then our long-term motives will naturally be defined by those of our peers as well. It is only those with immense confidence in their desires, objectives, and self-worth, that can rebuff society's edicts for "what (supposedly) matters most". I have immense respect and admiration for those whose lives are an embodiment of their passions and interests -- those who radiate a unique aura of conviction and purpose with every word they speak and every step (both literally and figuratively) they take. They are, simply, rare. But to those rare souls with the inner strength and conviction to defy the world's dogma: you are an inspiration. Crosspost: http://www.hkmurakami.com/blog/
+ Show Spoiler +I feel like you can't understand how hard it is to follow your dreams and not worry about the money to live, being (afaik) from a prestigious university yourself and going into a 'regular' job. Also you talk about ivy league personalities as if ivy league actually applies to the real world (only applies to a ridiculously small subset of intellectuals/students). Remember though that I did say "I feel" should you feel compelled to smash the aforementioned statements into dust.
I disagree on many points even as someone with relevant experience, who dropped out of school while I was doing great to start a successful software company. I followed my dreams, disregarded and rejected (not temporarily, but permanently) the standards of success set by society, and also rejected what society wants/wanted me to do with my life. I've felt my closest friends and family become antagonizing forces towards all my decisions and actions because they weren't in line with 'conventional logic/wisdom' which is ironically, usually pretty irrational......(think going 5 gate before expansion to 'be safe', thats how safe the 'conventional wisdom' for first world inhabitants' suggested life path is)
(example applies to any dedicated pursuit that requires a lot of effort before societal reward and ends up with you being distant from society and societies values -- ending up like the person you describe. using it for entrepreneur/artist)
First of all, you do need money to live. disregarding magic connections (most take time and work to establish), this is why hard-working, well intentioned kids who become entrepreneurs/artists succeed more often if they are from a rich-ish family...they dont have to be a wage slave. Others have to be wage slave WHILE building their business/studio, as I did. This is hard and beats you into the ground. With the pressure and inevitable failures that you have to keep going through, people slowly give up and trickle back into society and go to their job full-time since its the stable, safe, 'right' thing to do.
Second of all, money can be a valid motivator if only for the freedom it gives you, as a support to main motivators. At 23 I am about one and a half years from being financially free of worry for the rest of my life. I love what I do and I would do it for free (in a Kespa training house, for living conditions/food, 16 hours a day) BUT the freedom that my path can buy as a possibility drives me even more in addition to my passion for the work...
I have more but ill leave it at that, got shit to do.
Rated 1/5. sorry.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On January 23 2013 13:43 sam!zdat wrote:haha sorry lucky fool that was totally sarcastic You're absolutely right, the Good Life has nothing to do with material wealth. Tune in, turn on, drop out
u gonna drop out bro?
capitalism may win economically, but culturally we can all be marxists
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don't take me too seriously
edit: although I suppose what it means by "drop out." I suppose I could have gone to law school, that would have been easy.
edit: but yeah, with regards to what the dude above was saying, I don't think people should have to be wage slaves. No good reason for it. That's why I'm a crazy radical.
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My inclination is to say the world is a condition where change is necessary if my ideals are to be achieved. My happiness is limited not only by what occurs to others. The competitive nature that drives one person to achieve monetary wealth (and some status symbols) occurs to another who is motivated by self-edification or fulfillment. A third person may view all the usual trappings of success: money, power, symbols of accomplishment as means to an end.
You may believe that Bill Gates does great things with his money, and probably his success is also a consequence of what I call self-edification. He would not be happy with only the monetary equivalent of his current holdings. There are a lot of rules in society, and these rules probably give us some heading. What we can and cannot do to achieve happiness is also a factor in what course seems viable to us.
edit: unfortunately most of the posters on this site are petty trolls who can't tell the difference between a cause they support and a cause that supports them. looking here for advice is like drinking cristal to stay sober.
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On January 23 2013 04:09 opisska wrote:
I also see some inconsistency between the qoute and the blog. From these two, I relate myself much more to the qoute. I really wouldn't say that I radiate inner strength or whatever, but I do, as a matter of fact, live a very happy life.
How do I do that? The first and main reason is obviously that 10 years ago I got incredibly lucky have found a girl, who later became my wife and shares, for a large part, my view on the world and how our life should be. That is one thing that really has to be said first, because that has greatly contributed to my freedom - not having to act stupidly in trying to "attract" someone frees a guy a lot and it would be hypocritical to desrcibe my life without saying that. Also an important observation is that neither do I or does my wife want to have children and not having a responsibility for anyone clears one's hands a lot too.
The main concept that I have developed in my life is a complete lack of goals related to career, wealth or acheivements. The only thing I wish is to enjoy myself and for me and my wife to be happy. A focal point in pursuit of this is the realisation that we don't really need that much money to achieve that. Actually, I find it hard to comprehend, how much money other people seem to need, while apparently "generating" much less happiness than we do. What do you need a big house for? Or an expensive car? (That is one point that completely eludes me, when my car that I bought for $1000 can reliably transport me 6000 km around Europe in one week, what makes other people by cars for 20 times the price?) But still, there are so many people around me that seem smart and everything, yet they have somehow created these absolutely irrational mindblocks about "needing" some absolutely useless stuff for their lives.
So I work nominally 20 hours a week (in reality, I come and go as I wish, I only to show a result or two once in a while) as a very slow (already in 5th year) PhD student in physics (and I have taken a firm resolution that I am never going to accept a fulltime job unless the job itself is so excting that it is something I would like to to the whole day anyway) , live in a school dormitory (quite an unusal sight at my age of 30) and spend most of the time doing whatever I want at the moment. And I am the happiest I have ever been in my life.
I'm one of these people.
I need that big house because everything in my city/country is expensive, I put my money and savings into a property as it is one of the easiest and safest way to invest, the returns are not astronomical but it sure beats leaving it with the bank.
I need that big car because I like my car to have maximum safety and space for my future family sp I wouldn't have to worry about some drink driving idiots causing them harm.
$1000 is not much at all, you are obviously a very smart guy but for people like me, fixing and maintaining a $1000 car is just not worth it. My first car was $3500, I must have spend over $4000 just to fix all the bits and keeping it on the road.
Can I ask how old you are? I don't want to judge you or anything but at my age, me and my wife want to have kids and in my country, having a kid is expensive, education is expensive, hell just keeping them entertained is expensive, they would want ipods, playstations and all those other material things that you no doubt look down upon.
I like living a simple life, I would probably be happy just having my laptop with broodwar installed and 3 good meals a day, I couldn't care less about money/house however I have 2 parents, a wife and kids in the future, I don't live on my own, there are other people that depend on my income and help, I really really want to go back to school and study something i like but that would mean the rest of my family have to work twice as hard just to support my "passion", it just doesn't compute.
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On January 24 2013 16:02 haduken wrote:
they would want ipods, playstations and all those other material things that you no doubt look down upon.
So tell 'em no. It'll be good for them. A lot of consumerist bullshit is driven by parents not being willing to own up to the fact that they buy a bunch of useless shit for their kids that's actively bad for them in the first place.
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On January 24 2013 16:07 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 16:02 haduken wrote:
they would want ipods, playstations and all those other material things that you no doubt look down upon.
So tell 'em no. It'll be good for them. A lot of consumerist bullshit is driven by parents not being willing to own up to the fact that they buy a bunch of useless shit for their kids that's actively bad for them in the first place.
It's easy to say that and I'm not saying you should over indulge your kids but we live in a connected world, kids grow up with other kids, your kid growing up without any of the trendy thing is going to be an easy target for outcast. Don't believe me? go back to high school for one day and see what I mean.
Personally I don't think ipad is bad, I like my playstation and no doubt my kids will have something in their generation that take their fancy. I had a playstation when I was 12, I was happy with it, yes it is consumer bullshit but I got my joy out of it, so why should I deny my children the same joy?
Okay, let me try this again, what if they don't want ipod or playstation, what if they like violin, guitar, programming, soccer. Are these activities objectively "bad" for them? They sure as hell don't cost any less than ipods.
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Yes, but it's destroying us. Whatever, I won't rant at you about this, it's nice to give your kids things I get it.
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Okay, let me try this again, what if they don't want ipod or playstation, what if they like violin, guitar, programming, soccer. Are these activities objectively "bad" for them? They sure as hell don't cost any less than ipods.
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I know. It's difficult. I grew up among a great deal of profligacy and it's difficult for me to keep things in perspective.
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His point, which I don't entirely agree with but can definitely understand, is a bit different from what you're getting at haduken. I think what samizdat is saying is that consumerism (wanting to all the new shiny toys, planned obsolescence and all) is destroying modern culture, because people are focusing on about material things to which people assign artificial value. What you're saying haduken (I think), is more that because these things can bring us simple pleasures, why prevent your kids from enjoying them too? But I think you guys are both understood now so nvm.
@sam below: yeah, fair enough. ^^
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I just feel like there are definitely ways that your kids can have a kickass childhood that don't involve powering the consumerism tumor
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dang i agree with this blog. Material wealth sucks! I want to be free! who can help me?? you have to be able to accept paypal tho
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what a ridiculous quote.
achieving your goals of making your business successful is probably one of the greatest feelings in the world.
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Funny timing. Wozniak is coming to speak at my alma mater in like a month.
Pretty sweet how nobody interesting at all was invited as a speaker till after I graduated.
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If you grow up privileged but don't pursue normative career success, you are basically abandoning the culture and society in which you were raised. There's immense social pressure to conform.
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On January 25 2013 15:38 sam!zdat wrote:
If you grow up privileged but don't pursue normative career success, you are basically abandoning the culture and society in which you were raised. There's immense social pressure to conform.
I think you've summed it up the best for me.
It's a sad state of affairs.
I don't claim to be immune myself.
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On January 25 2013 15:31 thedeadhaji wrote:I agree that one needs to take care of basic needs first. And you are right, my views are skewed due to my admittedly privileged upbringing and training. But if you look around, those with the material means to 'not' have to focus solely on their career success are exactly the ones who climb an endless mountain of "success" beyond what any person could need in their lifetime. You'd expect the privileged to be the ones who are best equipped to take risks, stand up for causes, and live as they wish to. And yet we find that the ones with the luxury to be different, are the ones who become the most prototypical. There seems to be something very broken in the way we are brought up and taught to live. The 'better' one adhered to the system's teachings, the more perverse the situation seems to become. P.S. Ack, I am jealous 
I don't mean to take away from the fact that the "privileged" who are not going down the one path they are supposed to go down (in an almost 1984-esque sense of the word 'supposed to') are under immense social pressure. A lot of people seem to think that money makes all one's problems go away, and those people need a reality check.
However, I will point out that a lot of people who are a lot less noteworthy who deal with a ton of social pressure AND a ton of financial pressure. While those of us who spent at least a portion of our childhood in trailer parks were not constantly pressed to perform and to earn, there are other things we were pressured to do. Doing well in school, or being interested in athletics, or even something like 'being straight'. Social norms are everywhere, and tremendous pressure follows those who do not or cannot live up to them. I have the utmost of sympathy for anyone who doesn't fit with those norms (and I'm probably one of them).
It's also worth noting, though, that there are those who suffer just as much pressure socially - but also have no money.
What you're hitting on, though, is the fundamental question - why is society set up like this? The poor aren't happy. The rich aren't happy. So why are things the way they are? Unfortunately, the answer to this question is more of a history lesson than an ideological explanation, and one you likely wouldn't find interesting. As for why we can't move forward from here to someplace where maybe more than some slim minority of people among any class can possibly be happy? Simple. We disagree about the means we need to use to get there - and our disagreements are being used to stagnate the means any individual has to affect social change.
It's a tragic society we live in - and it really isn't any wonder why it's easy to look up to someone who hangs his hat on something as simple as laughing. I'll tip my hat to Mr. Wozniak for that.
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Love your blogs haji, I've recently started living my life entirely for my passions and this is easily the best period I've ever had in my life. Because of this though my life has changed drastically in every aspect one can imagine that matters, location, love, occupation, etc. But man the rewards are worth all the stress and problems needed to get there. Anecdotal support for your post all the way!
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On January 26 2013 04:12 Treehead wrote:
more of a history lesson than an ideological explanation
no such difference 
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I'm not totally clear what the OP is about (especially when OP mentions "society"). Resisting hyper-consumerism? Living a totally authentic and individual life? If so, it is too much of a dichotomy to me. Most of us, at least to me, seem to exist in the middle zone and try our best to negotiate the pressures of reality without necessarily having to feel compromised by doing so.
There may be nothing worthwhile about seeking wealth and possessions for their own sake without reflecting on one's self and one's life. But, there is also nothing worthwhile about living in poverty, not meeting your responsibilities towards self and kin, and being dependent on others (especially in old age). I see no glory in this kind of life, either. Nor anything to laugh about.
If Wozniak is able to do so, it may be because he has the (good) fortune to be able to afford to be carefree and laugh.
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I also think people would have responded differently to this blog 5 years ago than they do now. In hard times, it's difficult for anyone living stressful lives financially to not respond negatively to an article highlighting good qualities in someone who does not have most people's financial burdens.
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EPT
