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It seems normal these days, especially for young people with a degree, to work overtime for free.
My point of view has always been:
- I have a contract for 40 hours paid and I follow my contract.
- I work for money, to support my life. I usually like my work but it's not my life.
- Working more than 8 hours a day is bad for your health, it can happen on occasion but should not happen regularly. Example
- During working hours I try to get my work done as best as i can.
- I'm happy to do overtime, but I have to be paid for it, or get the hours back another time.
Collegues say that I have a highly inflexible attitude and it won't get me far.
I have a friend who goes back to work every sunday, to fill in his hours and finish his work he couldn't get done in time before the weekend.
A few unpaid hours. Every weekend.
He says that he has to if he wants to make career. He doesn't have time for his hours during the week because every minute is planned.
I say that's wrong. And that his bosses don't plan his work well, if he cannot finish it in time.
My niece has a good career.
But she drives every day to her work and back. 3 hours driving.
Then 8 hours work, but she has to do a lot of unpaid overtime. More than an hour a day.
So that's 12 hours a day she is busy with work, driving and overtime, 8 sleeping, 4 for herself but totally tired. From the 12 hours she is busy with work she gets 8 paid. While the driving distance is not her boss' fault, the structural unpaid overtime is.
I say it's modern slavery. And just because everyone does it, it doesn't make it right.
Often it seems that no matter how well you do your work during contract hours, if you don't do free overtime you won't get far.
I wonder what the TL crowd thinks about this!
 
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It's obviously bad, but wether you should do it or not depends of your sector. If unpaid overtime is the norm, then you will have to go with it or lose value as an employee (look at the game industry, I haven't heard of anyone there who refuses overtime).
If you're unhappy with the situation your sector is in, you should either make your own business or change your orientation.
I'd say that two or three hours of unpaid overtime every week is okay, since the planning can't exactly account of how much time it will take to realize the tasks you're given, and that your own rythm may be inconsistent. Leaving half an hour late has never bothered me, as long as I enjoyed what I do (and as long as you don't have a family, I guess). The problem lies within the management team : some will put even more pressure on their workers if they see that unpaid overtime doesn't bother anyone. So, yeah... it all comes down to your relationship with your hierarchy.
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The problem is, there is human rights, contracts, unions etc.
How can unpaid overtime ever be "the norm" in any sector? Why doesn't anyone fight that.
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I try to work less than 8 hours a day on average, which makes staying longer a few days not that big of a deal. Getting your work done exactly at the end of the day is rare. If you're done some task and there's half an hour left in the day, that's a great time to leave. You're not going to get anything real done in that last 30 minutes. Flexible management is very valuable.
On the other hand, the contracts I've looked at usually have clauses allowing for unpaid overtime.
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On January 14 2013 05:05 Incanus wrote:
contracts I've looked at usually have clauses allowing for unpaid overtime.
You are right, they always try to get away with that. It's the first thing I scan for and say that has to be removed :D
But why do we let such a clause in a contract ever be legal in a civilized society I wonder?
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Do you really have a contract that says 40 hours paid or is that just in your own mind?
In my opinion, it depends what kind of work you do and the circumstances that would make a person work beyond what is deemed normal. I frequently go overtime without getting paid and do that by my choice given the responsibilities and goals I have. Hell, I often work or at least visit my office during the weekends every two weeks or so. The job I have is mostly a desk / office job as well so going a hour or two, sometimes several, isn't as physically taxing as a blue collar worker would. Therefore, I don't mind going unpaid overtime at all and I completely understand why your friend would do so as well.
Also, one could be put in a position where he or she has to work longer than scheduled or be responsible for lackluster results or unfinished products/services. That person has every right to argue/blame the latter for the sake of not doing the former, but often the trouble and resolving it is simply not worth it.
I completely understand people who stop working at a set amount of time they're paid or contracted for, but they sure as hell better be responsible for the work and product they produce.
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Yes 40 hours is mentioned in my contract.
And your work might not be physically taxing, being more than 8 hours in an office is mentally taxing for sure.
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You might not think it's fair, but I'm pretty sure someone else would be willing to do it. It's not slavery if you're free to leave and find a job that meets your expectations.
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Can't get away from it, if you disagree they will take someone else. Have to deal with it or find yourself another job.. I do agree that it sounds unfair etc, but you can't stop this if it's allowed by law. 
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Collegues say that I have a highly inflexible attitude and it won't get me far.
Those guys are brainwashed. What will get you far is being fairly compensated. If that means going elsewhere to do your work, so be it.
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Birdkiller,
So if someone who does his work well, works the hours he and his boss agreed on in a contract, but he cannot get it done in that time he should stay longer?
I totally disagree with that 
It means the contract is wrong or the planning. Why should the employee be the only one to pay for that, with his precious spare time even.
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On January 14 2013 05:13 Nisyax wrote:Can't get away from it, if you disagree they will take someone else. Have to deal with it or find yourself another job.. I do agree that it sounds unfair etc, but you can't stop this if it's allowed by law.
Laws can be changed though
If enough people disagree with it and become more vocally about it.
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I wouldn't work even a second more, if I didn't get a standard compensation for my overtime (money or future free time when I need it) and even my regular overtime, I only do when I want to. But that kind of a treatment is something I don't have to face at all. No one ever had the insolence to expect me to work unpaid overtime. It's all fair when it comes to working time where I work. I have a job in market research, maybe this line of business is an exception?
Your colleagues are tools, really. If you let down your pants and invite anyone to shove his bone in your ass, then of course you'll get exactly that.
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United States10163 Posts
leave and find a better job then. argue to your boss. if he fires you for that just screw him by ratting him out. its unfair to you
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Depends on the job. Some places expect you to work unpaid hours. Other places, the higher ups aren't heartless dicks, and they either don't make you stay or they pay you for your time.
I quit the job that expected unpaid work.
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You haven't stated what it is you do exactly. Also is it just your opinion that you work well and efficiently or a fact? If it's the latter you should contact your union if one exists.
Me, in your place, I would draw up an invoice and deliver it to them, if they refused to pay, I would keep a record of all overtime worked for an entire year while attempting to find a replacement job, quit then contact a lawyer to sue them. I don't know anything about Dutch law but this would never be the case in the vast majority of EU countries...
Many people commute to work, the time it takes is rarely compensated but she too should be paid for overtime.
I've never heard of this happening anywhere, ussually if you are notified at the last minute and don't have the option to refuse you are paid x1.5_2 times your normal pay...
So what do you do exactly?
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i think some jobs have the 48 hour rule where you can go up to 48 hours without being paid overtime but after that you do. Not sure what the deal is over there.
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On January 14 2013 05:19 Zandar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 05:13 Nisyax wrote:Can't get away from it, if you disagree they will take someone else. Have to deal with it or find yourself another job.. I do agree that it sounds unfair etc, but you can't stop this if it's allowed by law. Laws can be changed though If enough people disagree with it and become more vocally about it.
Ofcourse, but you will have to spend a couple of years there before you could possibly tell em: HAH U HAVE TO PAY ME FOR OVERTIME! :p
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There's nothing unfair about it. If you can find a better job you're free to go. If you can't then unfortunately that's how it's gonna be.
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A lot of salaried positions require waaaay more than 40 hours of work a week. Some people are fine with that. It depends on how you value the work you do.
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Life isn't fair. If you don't like what your boss asks of you then just go find a better job. That's the jobs of a free market economy sometimes.
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Free market economy my ass... business/corporation take a shit on free market every time the market moves against them.
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I share your feelings OP. Fortunately there aren't many occasions where I have to work overtime.
If time is more valuable than salary to you then just tell management. Negotiate a lesser wage on the condition you're not expected to do unpaid overtime. If you don't think you're getting a fair wage to begin with then leave the company citing that. If they value you they should be prepared to make some accession.
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Unpaid overtime? I NEVER HEARD OF THOSE WORDS!?
But seriously though, the overtime I had to go through is always paid up. Not much, but at least it's something.
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Personally i think if overtime are unpaid then the business should not have strict requirement on punctuality.
If I can work from home from time to time and not bound to my desk at 8am in the morning AKA i can turn up 10-20 minutes late and no one gives a fuck then it's not such a bad deal.
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I think you are being way over the top OP. Modern slavery?
People are getting compensated for their work even if they are working overtime without pay. You just have to average your total salary/income over all the hours to get a real picture of your income. Chances are, a lot of the people who work overtime without pay are actually making more per hour than the people who have mandated pay with overtime. Because people who are willing to work hard without explicitly mandated pay are going to go farther than people who are inflexible and make dramatic declarations of slavery.
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Sucks
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My uncle get's unpaid overtime. He's a plant manager for a fruit warehouse and is paid a salary. During picking season he works at least 80hours a week as he's always on call. His company has offered him overtime pay however he declined it as he doesn't believe he should be payed overtime as he's on a salary.
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It really depends on your situation.
Some jobs have work where you have to be there for a certain number of hours because other people rely on you working specific times. For example working in a shop. In these cases it is impossible to manage your own time. In this case you should be paid for turning up for work and doing every hour you work. In order to be reasonable it is standard for people working shifts to turn up a little early to buffer the change over of workers.
Other jobs, you have a certain amount of work to do. In this case being paid by the hour is just an arbitrary device used for ease of accounting. In this case you can manage the time you work either by being more efficient, or by managing the expectations of how much work you are required to do.
My job is kind of a mixture of both, having times when I must work, and also needing to prepare things during other times. Although I work more hours than the job minimally requires, I see the salary as a monthly amount for the amount of work I do. It's my job to decide whether I want to do a mediocre job and do minimal hours, or put a few more hours in a month and do a really good job.
I like doing a good job, and I think it will benefit me in the long run.
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I think there's a key disconnect here. You claim that any time a worker can't finish his work within the time specified by his contract, it's management's fault. It's certainly true sometimes, but I'd challenge you that I can find someone in a similar position, being paid a similar wage, who gets more work done per hour than you do. And that's not an insult, it's true of almost everyone - everyone but that one guy. That said, as efficient as you might be, you could almost always be getting more done, and if and when you don't, it doesn't seem unreasonable that you'd get it done during unpaid hours.
I also think it's a misnomer to call it unpaid overtime when you're not being paid an hourly wage. If you're being paid an annual salary, the contract might say a certain number of hours, but certainly the expectation is that you'll do a certain amount of work in those hours, and if you can't, then no harm done, work extra.
I'll leave you with a comment made by one of my PhD advisors - "Academia is great, you get to set your own hours, pick any 100 a week you like."
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If you're working for an hourly wage, then you shouldn't be expected to work unpaid overtime. Period. I can see some room for arguing this point for salaried workers. But a job is trading labor for money.
If the company asks you to give them extra labor for no extra money, then ask them to give you extra money for no extra labor. See how they respond to that.
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Okay, now I see the divergence of opinions being based on whether your work is paid either by wages or salary:
If you're paid by wages, then you should be getting paid for overtime because you're getting paid for every hour you work.
If you're paid in salary, then you don't really have a fixed amount of time you're supposed to work, so long as you get the work done and support the work of others, because you're getting paid to meet a set of goals and responsibilities, not by time. There could be weeks where you would work more than 40 hours per week but also work less than 20 hours, and still get paid the same.
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On January 14 2013 15:51 BirdKiller wrote:
Okay, now I see the divergence of opinions being based on whether your work is paid either by wages or salary:
If you're paid by wages, then you should be getting paid for overtime because you're getting paid for every hour you work.
If you're paid in salary, then you don't really have a fixed amount of time you're supposed to work, so long as you get the work done and support the work of others, because you're getting paid to meet a set of goals and responsibilities, not by time. There could be weeks where you would work more than 40 hours per week but also work less than 20 hours, and still get paid the same.
Well, not really. At least not around here. Even if you're paid a salary, it clearly states the amount of hours you are supposed to work each week (Standard is 40 or 38,5 for a full time job). Thus, every hour you work in addition must be regarded as classic overtime and compensated.
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Actually, for all the US folks here. The salary is based on working 40 hours/week (it's the most no-overtime work someone is legally allowed to work in most EU countries).
Also in most places it is illegal to work more than 48 hours/week (8 hours overtime) except in special circumstances. Some places spread out the overtime over a few weeks if they go over that quota in a busy week.
But yes, the actual practice means people will work as much as their told or be replaced. The overtime is never counted and law is broken.
I usually work 39-43 hours/week. I would most likely ask for the extra hours if I would feel like it would get too much during a week, but that has never happened. Team estimates tasks anyway so we know how fast we can work. My boss actually asked someone that worked too much to GTFO out of the office or they wouldn't get any new tasks assigned for the amount of time he worked overtime. Our actual workday here is 6 hours (allowing for meetings, random stuff, doing nothing).
I tried 1.5 jobs once (9H for one - lunch hour is compulsory + 4H for another + 1H travel between them). With 1H travel home, that was absolute crap.
And I do believe I'm good enough at what I do to refuse to do too much overtime and not have to worry about my next job (never happened yet, too much overtime that is).
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Eight hours a day! That would be nice I currently work 14-15 hours a day. I work shifts, now if you want to look at something bad for you a 15 hour night shift is about as brutal as it gets.
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EPT
