• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 03:36
CEST 09:36
KST 16:36
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall10HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation5$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced4Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles6[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China9Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL66
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing
Tourneys
$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma
Brood War
General
i aint gon lie to u bruh... ASL20 Preliminary Maps BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall SC uni coach streams logging into betting site
Tourneys
[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China [BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET CSL Xiamen International Invitational The Casual Games of the Week Thread
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Earn Rewards for Every Prediction in the Game Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games?
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Summer Games Done Quick 2025! Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
Culture Clash in Video Games…
TrAiDoS
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 640 users

The Dunning-Kruger Effect

Blogs > Clbull
Post a Reply
1 2 Next All
Clbull
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United Kingdom1439 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-18 19:55:35
December 18 2012 19:53 GMT
#1
I'm trying to get over a misconception about my own play at the mo. If any of you are not familiar with the title name, the Dunning-Kruger effect is (as Wikipedia states) a cognitive bias in which unskilled players suffer from illusionary superiority, or feeling like they are much better than average.

I have had this with Sc2. For about a year now I have been stuck in Platinum League with about 2,500 - 3,000 1v1 games played overall since around November 2010. I did at one point peak towards low diamond but slumped quite a bit since.

My problem is I feel like I deserve to be much higher than this, even in Master League or Grandmaster League. I barely check my replays for mistakes because to be frank I feel embarassed to lose to Platinum and Gold Leaguers.

I don't really want to pin the blame on anyone or anything specific but I hate being in my league. Platinum Leaguers are seen as trash players and the big problems I have faced is finding practice partners to play Sc2 with or actually talking about the game without being seen as a noob/troll etc. I have approached Diamond/Master levelled players because that's where I want to aim for and they usually give me the same crap. "No, you're bad practice" and then block me. Even giving an opinion on how to do something gets you the "lol 3k games and ur plat, u suck, uninstall sc2" bullshit.

The reason why I hate my league is because they are treated like trash. Thanks to some misconception made on /r/starcraft that may have been true two years ago when it was posted but isn't now... there is still this inherent belief that improving your ability to macro alone will get you into Master League, and that anybody below this is mechanically retarded.

That may have been true two years ago but with a fleshed-out metagame now, I don't think it is. Anyway, enough about the crap excuses. Just putting this out there.

**
StatixEx
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United Kingdom779 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-18 20:17:02
December 18 2012 20:01 GMT
#2
you are right with this, ive nearly come to stop posting at all on this site as noone seems to actually read your posts properly, picks a 1 word line and then argue that and ignore or dont listen to the rest. So here i am actually posting as i understand totally what you are saying. When i ask a question i dont feel its properly answered, but when i answer as plat league player i can fully explain and give a workable solution, of course it may not be masters explanation but i can give a good enough explanation suggest how i think a game was lost and give them something to look at and link 10 replays where this exact same thing happens

I too was playing against diamonds in my silver-gold leagues and then i started to tail off and now i think im settled in my gold/plat league as im winning 50% of my games. this i dont mind. Constantly my league gets refered to as trash i simply have no clue on the game

No you dont have the DK effect as you have to win sooooo many games with good SQ and army value vs minerals its difficult to get into new leagues if you are in or around the top bottom of the next one
Clbull
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United Kingdom1439 Posts
December 18 2012 20:06 GMT
#3
On December 19 2012 05:01 StatixEx wrote:
you are right with this, ive nearly come to stop posting at all on this site as noone seems to actually read your posts properly, picks a 1 word line and then argue that and ignore or dont listen to the rest. So here i am actually posting as i understand totally what you are saying. When i ask a question i dont feel its properly answered, but when i answer as plat league player i can fully explain and give a workable solution, of course it may not be masters explanation but i can give a good enough explanation suggest how i think a game was lost and give them something to look at and link 10 replays where this exact same thing happens

I too was playing against diamonds in my silver-gold leagues and then i started to tail off and now i think im settled in my gold/plat league as im winning 50% of my games. this i dont mind. Constantly my league gets refered to as trash i simply have no clue on the game

No you dont have the DK effect as you have to win sooooo many games with good SQ and army value vs minerals its difficult to get into new leagues

I do if I act like I should be better than everybody else and look down heavily upon anyone I lose to. And if I refuse to look at my lost games, let alone in a serious light.
Recognizable
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Netherlands1552 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-18 20:12:14
December 18 2012 20:08 GMT
#4
Well, atleast you realized. After 2k games that you were awful. This is the first step towards improvement. And you indeed suffer from the Dunning Kruger effect.
ShadowDrgn
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States2497 Posts
December 18 2012 20:18 GMT
#5
On December 19 2012 04:53 Clbull wrote:
The reason why I hate my league is because they are treated like trash. Thanks to some misconception made on /r/starcraft that may have been true two years ago when it was posted but isn't now... there is still this inherent belief that improving your ability to macro alone will get you into Master League, and that anybody below this is mechanically retarded.

That may have been true two years ago but with a fleshed-out metagame now, I don't think it is. Anyway, enough about the crap excuses. Just putting this out there.


See, that's part of your problem. It *is* still true, and you shouldn't buy into garbage buzzwords like "fleshed-out metagame." The only thing that's changed in two years is that more people in lower leagues have refined 1 or 2 builds that they can execute half-decently (at least for 10 game minutes). The average player hasn't gotten much better at macro, micro, scouting, or reacting. Way too many people neglect training those fundamental skills and instead chase after the latest killer unit combo, unstoppable timing attack, or whatever. That's how you end up playing 3k games in plat.
Of course, you only live one life, and you make all your mistakes, and learn what not to do, and that’s the end of you.
Clbull
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United Kingdom1439 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-18 20:32:43
December 18 2012 20:20 GMT
#6
On December 19 2012 05:18 ShadowDrgn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2012 04:53 Clbull wrote:
The reason why I hate my league is because they are treated like trash. Thanks to some misconception made on /r/starcraft that may have been true two years ago when it was posted but isn't now... there is still this inherent belief that improving your ability to macro alone will get you into Master League, and that anybody below this is mechanically retarded.

That may have been true two years ago but with a fleshed-out metagame now, I don't think it is. Anyway, enough about the crap excuses. Just putting this out there.


See, that's part of your problem. It *is* still true, and you shouldn't buy into garbage buzzwords like "fleshed-out metagame." The only thing that's changed in two years is that more people in lower leagues have refined 1 or 2 builds that they can execute half-decently (at least for 10 game minutes). The average player hasn't gotten much better at macro, micro, scouting, or reacting. Way too many people neglect training those fundamental skills and instead chase after the latest killer unit combo, unstoppable timing attack, or whatever. That's how you end up playing 3k games in plat.

I'm pretty sure with a ranking system that ranks the top percentile of the active playerbase, this is no longer the case. Master League is the top 2% of the active playerbase, Diamond League is the top 20% - top 2% bracket, Platinum League is top 40% - top 20% and vice versa. If more players get half-decent by doing the same shit that the pros do all the time, even if just that then the skill ceiling rises. Fact.

It's like how the League of Legends metagame evolved the use of some champions, not by pros but by people copying the pros. It's like Mvp's TvZ mech build. Once he sussed out how to use it properly in a pro-gaming setting, won an IEM with it, and even saw its use in other matches like MajOr vs Life in TSL4 Ro32... that build become much more popular.

The game is no longer this "Make more units than your opponent" meta. Yes, you can fail outright if you get supply block but let's assume more players adapt and stop missing supply blockages. What the fuck now?

It's like the 7 gate immortal sentry timing. If many pros cannot even stop it once scouted then what's stopping a player in a lower league from refining the build - this one build - and using it in PvZ? Yes, his version will undoubtedly have less game knowledge and somewhat less refinement than say.... Parting's, but unless he makes a critical error like.... not scouting a 2 base muta straight-out-of-fucking-nowhere transition, or a massive micro blunder, he will win the game.

If Jaedong - a former legend-killer in Brood War - cannot defeat a 2 base sentry immortal timing (look at his SPL game against KT Rolster) then how is a master leaguer meant to hold a slightly less refined version?
Recognizable
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Netherlands1552 Posts
December 18 2012 20:31 GMT
#7
On December 19 2012 05:20 Clbull wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2012 05:18 ShadowDrgn wrote:
On December 19 2012 04:53 Clbull wrote:
The reason why I hate my league is because they are treated like trash. Thanks to some misconception made on /r/starcraft that may have been true two years ago when it was posted but isn't now... there is still this inherent belief that improving your ability to macro alone will get you into Master League, and that anybody below this is mechanically retarded.

That may have been true two years ago but with a fleshed-out metagame now, I don't think it is. Anyway, enough about the crap excuses. Just putting this out there.


See, that's part of your problem. It *is* still true, and you shouldn't buy into garbage buzzwords like "fleshed-out metagame." The only thing that's changed in two years is that more people in lower leagues have refined 1 or 2 builds that they can execute half-decently (at least for 10 game minutes). The average player hasn't gotten much better at macro, micro, scouting, or reacting. Way too many people neglect training those fundamental skills and instead chase after the latest killer unit combo, unstoppable timing attack, or whatever. That's how you end up playing 3k games in plat.

I'm pretty sure with a ranking system that ranks the top percentile of the active playerbase, this is no longer the case. Master League is the top 2% of the active playerbase, Diamond League is the top 20% - top 2% bracket, Platinum League is top 40% - top 20% and vice versa. If more players get half-decent by doing the same shit that the pros do all the time, even if just that then the skill ceiling rises. Fact.

The game is no longer this "Make more units than your opponent" meta. Yes, you can fail outright if you get supply block but let's assume more players adapt and stop missing supply blockages. What the fuck now?

It's like the 7 gate immortal sentry timing. If many pros cannot even stop it once scouted then what's stopping a player in a lower league from refining the build - this one build - and using it in PvZ? Yes, his version will undoubtedly have less game knowledge and somewhat less refinement than say.... Parting's, but unless he makes a critical error like.... not scouting a 2 base muta straight-out-of-fucking-nowhere transition, or a massive micro blunder, he will win the game.

If Jaedong - a former legend-killer in Brood War - cannot defeat a 2 base sentry immortal timing (look at his SPL game against KT Rolster) then how is a master leaguer meant to hold a slightly less refined version?


Well. If they started by doing that. Refining one build to perfection. And learning the basic fundamentals of micro/macro. That would go a long way wouldn't it.
ShadowDrgn
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States2497 Posts
December 18 2012 20:50 GMT
#8
On December 19 2012 05:20 Clbull wrote:
It's like the 7 gate immortal sentry timing. If many pros cannot even stop it once scouted then what's stopping a player in a lower league from refining the build - this one build - and using it in PvZ? Yes, his version will undoubtedly have less game knowledge and somewhat less refinement than say.... Parting's, but unless he makes a critical error like.... not scouting a 2 base muta straight-out-of-fucking-nowhere transition, or a massive micro blunder, he will win the game.

If Jaedong - a former legend-killer in Brood War - cannot defeat a 2 base sentry immortal timing (look at his SPL game against KT Rolster) then how is a master leaguer meant to hold a slightly less refined version?


That's just short-term thinking. The master league player can't hold it off either (unless the strategy requires significantly more skill to execute than defend). Eventually, some pro zerg player will figure out how to defend the build or else Blizzard will nerf it. At that point, every Protoss that spent all their practice time refining that one build is back to square one, having gained nothing besides some temporary ladder points. A Protoss player that instead spent his time on fundamental skills has gained permanent skill increases that will survive any balance patch or "metagame" shift.
Of course, you only live one life, and you make all your mistakes, and learn what not to do, and that’s the end of you.
Deleted User 135096
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
3624 Posts
December 18 2012 20:56 GMT
#9
I think the fundamentally apropos word here is training. In order to improve at starcraft you have to practice and work on your deficiencies. Are you still failing to build workers constantly? Practice it till it's second nature. Do you still get supply blocked in the first 10 minutes? Work on your resource awareness. Do you always lose your TvP because you didn't see the colossus transition? Know your timings and practice scouting better. Do you have trouble defending multi-speed prism harass in PvZ, work on better minimap awareness. Sometimes you have to just practice a shit ton before something will click.

It took me a good long while when I first started to come to the realization that build orders are not rigid or static 'recipe-like' directions. Half of what makes a build order work is knowing what the other person is doing at any given point at time (e.g. being blind and guessing is bad play, and there is almost always some kind of tell to what they are doing).

This is the single most important thing that lower level players need to learn, you must learn to self-diagnose your deficiencies and then if you do identify one, make a concerted effort to resolve that issue, sometimes by practicing in a controlled environment. Also, admit that in the words of CecilSunkure "you still suck", because we all do.


...also, Jaedong's defense in SPL was sloppy for a few reasons. Macro wise everything was fine, however, engaging Stats army was sloppy at best. He didn't bait out enough FF, and when he tried a surround, gave up positioning to allow Stats to just walk up to his natural uncontested. Nothing about this loss was due to anything but control and tactical problems.
Administrator
KalWarkov
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Germany4126 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-18 21:29:57
December 18 2012 21:20 GMT
#10
On December 19 2012 04:53 Clbull wrote:
I'm trying to get over a misconception about my own play at the mo. If any of you are not familiar with the title name, the Dunning-Kruger effect is (as Wikipedia states) a cognitive bias in which unskilled players suffer from illusionary superiority, or feeling like they are much better than average.

I have had this with Sc2. For about a year now I have been stuck in Platinum League with about 2,500 - 3,000 1v1 games played overall since around November 2010. I did at one point peak towards low diamond but slumped quite a bit since.

My problem is I feel like I deserve to be much higher than this, even in Master League or Grandmaster League. I barely check my replays for mistakes because to be frank I feel embarassed to lose to Platinum and Gold Leaguers.

I don't really want to pin the blame on anyone or anything specific but I hate being in my league. Platinum Leaguers are seen as trash players and the big problems I have faced is finding practice partners to play Sc2 with or actually talking about the game without being seen as a noob/troll etc. I have approached Diamond/Master levelled players because that's where I want to aim for and they usually give me the same crap. "No, you're bad practice" and then block me. Even giving an opinion on how to do something gets you the "lol 3k games and ur plat, u suck, uninstall sc2" bullshit.

The reason why I hate my league is because they are treated like trash. Thanks to some misconception made on /r/starcraft that may have been true two years ago when it was posted but isn't now... there is still this inherent belief that improving your ability to macro alone will get you into Master League, and that anybody below this is mechanically retarded.

That may have been true two years ago but with a fleshed-out metagame now, I don't think it is. Anyway, enough about the crap excuses. Just putting this out there.


i can get u to master with building either lings, marines or zealots only - in macrogames. its ALL about macro and mechanics, it always has been. dont talk yourself into that "the players that are plat now are much better" - most ppl even stopped playing.
ofc the skill has risen a bit, but u played a lot more then most others in ur league.

also, u have no idea about what macro exactly means.
u say "sure, i can get supplyblocked once".
You not getting supplyblocked and building an army as fast as possible end up with 100 supply.
Kas would have 160 supply at the same time. nothing happened. you (in your eyes) did the same build. that is MACRO for u. u can never get supplyblocked and constantly build SCVs but still have mediocre macro.
DiaBoLuS ** Sc2 - Protoss: 16x GM | Dota2 - Offlane Immortal | Wc3 - Undead decent level | Diablo nerd | Chess / Magnus fanboy | BVB | Agnostic***
Qwyn
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2779 Posts
December 18 2012 21:27 GMT
#11
On December 19 2012 06:20 KalWarkov wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2012 04:53 Clbull wrote:
I'm trying to get over a misconception about my own play at the mo. If any of you are not familiar with the title name, the Dunning-Kruger effect is (as Wikipedia states) a cognitive bias in which unskilled players suffer from illusionary superiority, or feeling like they are much better than average.

I have had this with Sc2. For about a year now I have been stuck in Platinum League with about 2,500 - 3,000 1v1 games played overall since around November 2010. I did at one point peak towards low diamond but slumped quite a bit since.

My problem is I feel like I deserve to be much higher than this, even in Master League or Grandmaster League. I barely check my replays for mistakes because to be frank I feel embarassed to lose to Platinum and Gold Leaguers.

I don't really want to pin the blame on anyone or anything specific but I hate being in my league. Platinum Leaguers are seen as trash players and the big problems I have faced is finding practice partners to play Sc2 with or actually talking about the game without being seen as a noob/troll etc. I have approached Diamond/Master levelled players because that's where I want to aim for and they usually give me the same crap. "No, you're bad practice" and then block me. Even giving an opinion on how to do something gets you the "lol 3k games and ur plat, u suck, uninstall sc2" bullshit.

The reason why I hate my league is because they are treated like trash. Thanks to some misconception made on /r/starcraft that may have been true two years ago when it was posted but isn't now... there is still this inherent belief that improving your ability to macro alone will get you into Master League, and that anybody below this is mechanically retarded.

That may have been true two years ago but with a fleshed-out metagame now, I don't think it is. Anyway, enough about the crap excuses. Just putting this out there.


i can get u to master with building either lings, marines or zealots only - in macrogames. its ALL about macro and mechanics, it always has been. dont talk yourself into that "the players that are plat now are much better" - most ppl even stopped playing.
ofc the skill has risen a bit, but u played a lot more then most others in ur league.


That is an analogy that is simply not true. Any platinum + player will not die to mass ling or zealot timings. Perhaps mass marines...but definitely not lings.

While they are not good at macro compared to a high tier player...they have enough knowledge of the game to have the units out necessary to beat these T1 units in time.

You would have to hit a timing. But if you were macroing, then you would aim for 200/200. And even a platinum player will not lose to such shit.
"Think of the hysteria following the realization that they consciously consume babies and raise the dead people from their graves" - N0
KalWarkov
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Germany4126 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-18 21:34:55
December 18 2012 21:34 GMT
#12
On December 19 2012 06:27 Qwyn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2012 06:20 KalWarkov wrote:
On December 19 2012 04:53 Clbull wrote:
I'm trying to get over a misconception about my own play at the mo. If any of you are not familiar with the title name, the Dunning-Kruger effect is (as Wikipedia states) a cognitive bias in which unskilled players suffer from illusionary superiority, or feeling like they are much better than average.

I have had this with Sc2. For about a year now I have been stuck in Platinum League with about 2,500 - 3,000 1v1 games played overall since around November 2010. I did at one point peak towards low diamond but slumped quite a bit since.

My problem is I feel like I deserve to be much higher than this, even in Master League or Grandmaster League. I barely check my replays for mistakes because to be frank I feel embarassed to lose to Platinum and Gold Leaguers.

I don't really want to pin the blame on anyone or anything specific but I hate being in my league. Platinum Leaguers are seen as trash players and the big problems I have faced is finding practice partners to play Sc2 with or actually talking about the game without being seen as a noob/troll etc. I have approached Diamond/Master levelled players because that's where I want to aim for and they usually give me the same crap. "No, you're bad practice" and then block me. Even giving an opinion on how to do something gets you the "lol 3k games and ur plat, u suck, uninstall sc2" bullshit.

The reason why I hate my league is because they are treated like trash. Thanks to some misconception made on /r/starcraft that may have been true two years ago when it was posted but isn't now... there is still this inherent belief that improving your ability to macro alone will get you into Master League, and that anybody below this is mechanically retarded.

That may have been true two years ago but with a fleshed-out metagame now, I don't think it is. Anyway, enough about the crap excuses. Just putting this out there.


i can get u to master with building either lings, marines or zealots only - in macrogames. its ALL about macro and mechanics, it always has been. dont talk yourself into that "the players that are plat now are much better" - most ppl even stopped playing.
ofc the skill has risen a bit, but u played a lot more then most others in ur league.


That is an analogy that is simply not true. Any platinum + player will not die to mass ling or zealot timings. Perhaps mass marines...but definitely not lings.

While they are not good at macro compared to a high tier player...they have enough knowledge of the game to have the units out necessary to beat these T1 units in time.

You would have to hit a timing. But if you were macroing, then you would aim for 200/200. And even a platinum player will not lose to such shit.


i wouldnt hit a timing, i would macro for 15 minutes and a click 3/3 lings / marines / zealots into his base. i acutally had a funaccount playing the worst bullshit strats with offraces that made absolutly no sense, and i happen to get into master at some point anyway even though i didnt want to...
I dont wanna say im extremly pro or sth like that, i just want to explain that micro and macro are more than enough to get into master with whatever nonsense strategy u choose.
DiaBoLuS ** Sc2 - Protoss: 16x GM | Dota2 - Offlane Immortal | Wc3 - Undead decent level | Diablo nerd | Chess / Magnus fanboy | BVB | Agnostic***
Severedevil
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States4838 Posts
December 18 2012 21:42 GMT
#13
You need objective benchmarks to fix skewed self-assessment. If you think your macro is good, check your replays, and check your timings against the professionals. You're almost certainly lagging way behind.
My strategy is to fork people.
Mstring
Profile Joined September 2011
Australia510 Posts
December 18 2012 22:34 GMT
#14
On December 19 2012 06:20 KalWarkov wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2012 04:53 Clbull wrote:
I'm trying to get over a misconception about my own play at the mo. If any of you are not familiar with the title name, the Dunning-Kruger effect is (as Wikipedia states) a cognitive bias in which unskilled players suffer from illusionary superiority, or feeling like they are much better than average.

I have had this with Sc2. For about a year now I have been stuck in Platinum League with about 2,500 - 3,000 1v1 games played overall since around November 2010. I did at one point peak towards low diamond but slumped quite a bit since.

My problem is I feel like I deserve to be much higher than this, even in Master League or Grandmaster League. I barely check my replays for mistakes because to be frank I feel embarassed to lose to Platinum and Gold Leaguers.

I don't really want to pin the blame on anyone or anything specific but I hate being in my league. Platinum Leaguers are seen as trash players and the big problems I have faced is finding practice partners to play Sc2 with or actually talking about the game without being seen as a noob/troll etc. I have approached Diamond/Master levelled players because that's where I want to aim for and they usually give me the same crap. "No, you're bad practice" and then block me. Even giving an opinion on how to do something gets you the "lol 3k games and ur plat, u suck, uninstall sc2" bullshit.

The reason why I hate my league is because they are treated like trash. Thanks to some misconception made on /r/starcraft that may have been true two years ago when it was posted but isn't now... there is still this inherent belief that improving your ability to macro alone will get you into Master League, and that anybody below this is mechanically retarded.

That may have been true two years ago but with a fleshed-out metagame now, I don't think it is. Anyway, enough about the crap excuses. Just putting this out there.


i can get u to master with building either lings, marines or zealots only - in macrogames. its ALL about macro and mechanics, it always has been. dont talk yourself into that "the players that are plat now are much better" - most ppl even stopped playing.
ofc the skill has risen a bit, but u played a lot more then most others in ur league.

also, u have no idea about what macro exactly means.
u say "sure, i can get supplyblocked once".
You not getting supplyblocked and building an army as fast as possible end up with 100 supply.
Kas would have 160 supply at the same time. nothing happened. you (in your eyes) did the same build. that is MACRO for u. u can never get supplyblocked and constantly build SCVs but still have mediocre macro.


The paper referred to by the OP doesn't only speak of those with lower skill. In all tests the top performers underestimated their skill and level of performance.

[image loading]

Could this be you?
Salivanth
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia1071 Posts
December 18 2012 23:50 GMT
#15
On December 19 2012 06:27 Qwyn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2012 06:20 KalWarkov wrote:
On December 19 2012 04:53 Clbull wrote:
I'm trying to get over a misconception about my own play at the mo. If any of you are not familiar with the title name, the Dunning-Kruger effect is (as Wikipedia states) a cognitive bias in which unskilled players suffer from illusionary superiority, or feeling like they are much better than average.

I have had this with Sc2. For about a year now I have been stuck in Platinum League with about 2,500 - 3,000 1v1 games played overall since around November 2010. I did at one point peak towards low diamond but slumped quite a bit since.

My problem is I feel like I deserve to be much higher than this, even in Master League or Grandmaster League. I barely check my replays for mistakes because to be frank I feel embarassed to lose to Platinum and Gold Leaguers.

I don't really want to pin the blame on anyone or anything specific but I hate being in my league. Platinum Leaguers are seen as trash players and the big problems I have faced is finding practice partners to play Sc2 with or actually talking about the game without being seen as a noob/troll etc. I have approached Diamond/Master levelled players because that's where I want to aim for and they usually give me the same crap. "No, you're bad practice" and then block me. Even giving an opinion on how to do something gets you the "lol 3k games and ur plat, u suck, uninstall sc2" bullshit.

The reason why I hate my league is because they are treated like trash. Thanks to some misconception made on /r/starcraft that may have been true two years ago when it was posted but isn't now... there is still this inherent belief that improving your ability to macro alone will get you into Master League, and that anybody below this is mechanically retarded.

That may have been true two years ago but with a fleshed-out metagame now, I don't think it is. Anyway, enough about the crap excuses. Just putting this out there.


i can get u to master with building either lings, marines or zealots only - in macrogames. its ALL about macro and mechanics, it always has been. dont talk yourself into that "the players that are plat now are much better" - most ppl even stopped playing.
ofc the skill has risen a bit, but u played a lot more then most others in ur league.


That is an analogy that is simply not true. Any platinum + player will not die to mass ling or zealot timings. Perhaps mass marines...but definitely not lings.

While they are not good at macro compared to a high tier player...they have enough knowledge of the game to have the units out necessary to beat these T1 units in time.

You would have to hit a timing. But if you were macroing, then you would aim for 200/200. And even a platinum player will not lose to such shit.


As a Platinum player, I lost to a zealot rush just yesterday. It happens. We suck.
<@Wikt> so you are one of those nega-fans <@Wikt> that hates the company that makes a game and everything they stand for <@Wikt> but still plays the game <@Wikt> (like roughly 30% of blizzard's player base, maybe much more...)
dartoo
Profile Joined May 2010
India2889 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-19 01:05:19
December 19 2012 01:04 GMT
#16
If you really want to see this work, you should check out moba games. Everybody is pro there.

Especially obvious when the player who fed 10 times in first 15 minutes ,manages to get three kills without dying, when the ancient is going down,types "my team noob, no backup at all". rofl.
32
Profile Joined February 2010
United States163 Posts
December 19 2012 06:41 GMT
#17
Agreed, the beautiful thing about starcraft is that there is very little unavoidable luck involved, most matches comes down to who played better. This means you can take the league placement as gospel, and do your best to affect it each game. The reason anyone below masters (myself included) is looked on as being really bad, is that starcraft players are really really hard on themselves. Even good ones say they are bad. They refuse to settle for less. It is best to accept your league as applying to you, because then you will probably strive for improvement naturally, instead of blaming the rating system for being faulty. Also I don't think you need to check replays unless you actually don't know what went wrong in the game. If you have the motivation to improve, you will likely reach your skill peak for the time you are willing to put in.
willy001
Profile Joined March 2011
United States89 Posts
December 19 2012 06:45 GMT
#18
+ Show Spoiler +
On December 19 2012 04:53 Clbull wrote:
I'm trying to get over a misconception about my own play at the mo. If any of you are not familiar with the title name, the Dunning-Kruger effect is (as Wikipedia states) a cognitive bias in which unskilled players suffer from illusionary superiority, or feeling like they are much better than average.

I have had this with Sc2. For about a year now I have been stuck in Platinum League with about 2,500 - 3,000 1v1 games played overall since around November 2010. I did at one point peak towards low diamond but slumped quite a bit since.

My problem is I feel like I deserve to be much higher than this, even in Master League or Grandmaster League. I barely check my replays for mistakes because to be frank I feel embarassed to lose to Platinum and Gold Leaguers.

I don't really want to pin the blame on anyone or anything specific but I hate being in my league. Platinum Leaguers are seen as trash players and the big problems I have faced is finding practice partners to play Sc2 with or actually talking about the game without being seen as a noob/troll etc. I have approached Diamond/Master levelled players because that's where I want to aim for and they usually give me the same crap. "No, you're bad practice" and then block me. Even giving an opinion on how to do something gets you the "lol 3k games and ur plat, u suck, uninstall sc2" bullshit.

The reason why I hate my league is because they are treated like trash. Thanks to some misconception made on /r/starcraft that may have been true two years ago when it was posted but isn't now... there is still this inherent belief that improving your ability to macro alone will get you into Master League, and that anybody below this is mechanically retarded.

That may have been true two years ago but with a fleshed-out metagame now, I don't think it is. Anyway, enough about the crap excuses. Just putting this out there.



Seriously? You are complaining that you haven't improved enough to climb the ladder, AND you say that you don't practice or review the mistakes that you made in replays? Massing games is fine, but you want to improve if i'm not mistaken. Why don't you practice some of the simpler fundamentals that everyone says you should. Surely there must be something that you are severely lacking in whether it might be your inferior macro micro or game sense.

The next thing that you need to do is fix your mentality. You say that you are embarrassed to look at games lost to gold and platinum league players? Well get over it. You say that you started at platinum and haven't improved, well some of us started at the bottom of bronze. If you think that people make fun of you for being in platinum, try discussing meta-game changes when you are in low bronze. People either send you to the Liquipedia or laugh at you. Stop thinking that you are inferior or superior. just stop caring so much about the game from that perspective. Try to play it for fun or for personal improvement. don't look at the ranks as a true measure of your skill because they are not.

Don't be discouraged by other players of higher ranks. the only thing that matters is your self improvement.

P.S. People who cannot macro properly still exist in masters league. learning to macro can get you across almost any league. Just because you haven't personally proven it yourself doesn't mean that it isn't a good principle of the game to go by.
Akamu
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States309 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-19 07:40:32
December 19 2012 07:39 GMT
#19
Hey man. You need to fix your attitude big time. You are plat. You belong in plat. If you were better than that you would move up. Plain and simple.

Now, if you pinky promise not to be a whiny little girl. Send me a pm and you can practice with a few of my friends that I'm coaching up. 2 plats and a handful of gold/silver.

Most importantly though, you need to realize that you suck. I amaze myself at how bad I am everyday and I'm a solid masters. You are not MVP trapped in elo hell.
I hear your heart beat to the beat of the drums, what a shame that you came here with someone.
Ghin
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
United States2391 Posts
December 19 2012 07:56 GMT
#20
Sure you can play a thousand games, but if you aren't improving that way, why would you play another thousand? If you want to improve, use your head and then use your time better. Maybe you could try listening to people's advice.

Talent is what bad people call hard work, determination and practice. You might think you're practicing, but you aren't. You're just playing a game a lot.
Legalize drugs and murder.
1 2 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 24m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
JimRising 685
StarCraft: Brood War
TY 534
actioN 365
PianO 174
Zeus 172
Leta 166
Larva 107
Noble 60
Yoon 53
sSak 49
Sacsri 15
[ Show more ]
yabsab 12
Nal_rA 7
Dota 2
XaKoH 460
ODPixel263
XcaliburYe210
Fuzer 126
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K766
Other Games
shahzam1292
monkeys_forever234
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick35128
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH376
• Hupsaiya 64
• Kozan
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• sooper7s
• Migwel
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• tankgirl 1
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota2129
League of Legends
• Lourlo1574
• Stunt493
• HappyZerGling98
Upcoming Events
The PondCast
2h 24m
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
8h 24m
WardiTV European League
8h 24m
Jumy vs NightPhoenix
Percival vs Nicoract
ArT vs HiGhDrA
MaxPax vs Harstem
Scarlett vs Shameless
SKillous vs uThermal
Replay Cast
16h 24m
RSL Revival
1d 2h
ByuN vs SHIN
Clem vs Reynor
OSC
1d 5h
Replay Cast
1d 16h
RSL Revival
2 days
Classic vs Cure
FEL
2 days
OSC
2 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
3 days
FEL
3 days
FEL
3 days
CSO Cup
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs QiaoGege
Dewalt vs Fengzi
Hawk vs Zhanhun
Sziky vs Mihu
Mihu vs QiaoGege
Zhanhun vs Sziky
Fengzi vs Hawk
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
FEL
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
Bonyth vs Dewalt
QiaoGege vs Dewalt
Hawk vs Bonyth
Sziky vs Fengzi
Mihu vs Zhanhun
QiaoGege vs Zhanhun
Fengzi vs Mihu
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-07-07
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSL Xiamen Invitational
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.