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On November 15 2012 20:44 ThePhan2m wrote:
I'll share my exam experience as a Christian, praying to God:
So, about 2 years ago I was reading for an Exphil exam. I had been preparing for quite some time, though had not read trough the whole curriculum cause I found some parts quite hard and boring, and I'm quite lazy and get easily distracted. Anyway, The exam consists of 2 parts. Part 1, chose between two questions with an longer answer. Part 2, chose 3 out of 5 smaller questions. Both parts has to be passed in order to pass the exam. During the day before the exam I was reading in the evening, and thought to myself "I probably wont get this on the exam, It wont help anything if I read this. I wont bother reading anymore, it wont help me much." During that evening of my choise to read or not to read, to either go and chill with my friends or to read, I was quickly looking trough the remaining summaries. I felt strongly that God told me to read on "Macintyre & Ariostle" (I did not realize it then how key this subject was in Exphil), and I had a choise there and then to accept and read or go chill with my friends. Even though I felt it so strongly I ignored that and went chilling with my friends. I did have my prayers answered for God helping me, though I ignored it. So the day came, and I asked my friends to pray for me even though I ignored the key subject. And I went to take the exam. I sat down, and when I got the questions, there it was; Aristotle & Macintyre question about virtue. I knew some facts about Aristotle but I totally had ignored Macintyre, I had no clue who he was. And this was an ethics question about their view and stuff. And all I could write down was minimal of some facts about Aristotle & Plato on this Part 1 of the test which had nearly anything to do with the question in hand. Part two I did answer very well, though it's part 1 that is the most important one, where I had to have answered at least four written pages to pass (I wrote two pages, full of out of the point facts and nearly nothing about the question, trying to pass)
Also I had to pass to get scholarship for this school (and I was in mid semester, and pretty much without money) And I had prayed so much during that exam, and before, and people for me. And I got for the main part questions that I was not prepared for, and still after 6 weeks of waiting for the results I PASSED!
I know it sound like luck or whatever. But all these things line up for a greater purpose and Gods grace for a person who seeks him for help, even though I fail to work harder (And I'm not saying that its ok not to work hard) Desipte that, I saw how God was trying to lead me trough it, and he did.
Also during this semester, I was very short on money, and I prayed God to help me out. My mum usually doesn't give me money out of thin air (because we are quite poor) and I had not explained my economic situation to her in fully. Though day after my simple devoted prayer to God, my mum sends me what I need without even me having to ask her. All the other times I have gotten money from her, I have borrowed it! This time she said that I can have it for free (about 500€)
My cousin experienced once to dream the whole exam day the night before the exam with all the exam result. So all he did, was he went to the exam, and wrote down what he had dreamt, resulting in a very top grade. You don't think God listens to prayers?
There are endless of stories like this among devoted Christians all over the world.
Thank you for sharing your experience. What I wanted to make clear from my OP: I totally accept that you see this as a sign of God and that it reassures you that you are on the right path and your praying does good to you and people you care about. However you must allow me - as an agnostic - to think differently. For me your beliefs are the same as the believes of little children, like believing in Santa. For an outside observing atheist both believes seem equally naive as the kid's presents are actually bought by the parents and the prayer is answered by coincidence in conjunction with the confirmation bias.
I want to make one thing very clear: I would never personally go to a Christian and talk him/her out of believing. As long as your beliefs don't take control over my world, I'm fine with it. You may also teach Christianity as an (mostly historically) important part of your culture. But please don't teach kids in school what to believe. It's the wrong place.
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I believe you are an agnostic atheist? Agnosticism has gotten the connotation that you think both possibilities are equally probable, however that's not what I inferred from you post.
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what do you mean "both possibilities"
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On November 15 2012 05:13 OmniEulogy wrote:
I've never thought about it much. I just think of Pascal and it's enough for me. I don't really lose sleep over it.
![[image loading]](http://www.godlessbastard.com/wp-content/uploads/GB-5659-Pascals-Wager-Matrix.jpg)
I don't know accurate this graph is, but it gets the point across.
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Picking one of them still gets you best EV :p
If you wanted to get an edge against random, you could engage in comparative theology
edit: also really stupid because the heaven/hell payout schema is already mired in a particular theology, e.g. it's nonsense to talk about belief in Zeus w/r/t hell
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On November 16 2012 05:15 guN-viCe wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 05:13 OmniEulogy wrote:
I've never thought about it much. I just think of Pascal and it's enough for me. I don't really lose sleep over it. I don't know accurate this graph is, but it gets the point across.
Could all be one dude. Or... creator... or something.
I firmly believe that Jehovah and Allah are the same thing and Jews, Christians and Muslims are all praying to one person. Extending this to Horus or Zeus wouldn't be much of a stretch either.
But it does get the point across that's it's foolish to choose based on that. Learn about all the religions and find one that makes you happy, or don't have one at all. Or choose not to know or care. As long as you enjoy life and you're not a dick to other people, that's all you need in life 
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On November 16 2012 05:33 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 05:15 guN-viCe wrote:On November 15 2012 05:13 OmniEulogy wrote:
I've never thought about it much. I just think of Pascal and it's enough for me. I don't really lose sleep over it. I don't know accurate this graph is, but it gets the point across. Christians and Muslims are all praying to one person.
Really depends on what kind of Christian you are. Lots of controversy over "persons"
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On November 16 2012 05:03 sam!zdat wrote:
what do you mean "both possibilities"
God/no god.........
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On November 16 2012 05:35 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 05:33 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:On November 16 2012 05:15 guN-viCe wrote:On November 15 2012 05:13 OmniEulogy wrote:
I've never thought about it much. I just think of Pascal and it's enough for me. I don't really lose sleep over it. I don't know accurate this graph is, but it gets the point across. Christians and Muslims are all praying to one person. Really depends on what kind of Christian you are. Lots of controversy over "persons"
Well I mean Muslims believe that Jesus was a great guy and all but just wasn't the son of God. They actually tie all three together in ways and say "Yeah this is God, but you guys are doing it wrong." Christians do the same thing to Jews in a way.
If anything it's just the three arguing over which one is the "right" pathway to paradise.
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On November 16 2012 05:46 Recognizable wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 05:03 sam!zdat wrote:
what do you mean "both possibilities" God/no god.........
Yeah but which "God"
Also I don't really understand what the "no god" position would be. Can you elaborate? Like, what is logical form of the claim here?
On November 16 2012 05:46 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 05:35 sam!zdat wrote:On November 16 2012 05:33 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:On November 16 2012 05:15 guN-viCe wrote:On November 15 2012 05:13 OmniEulogy wrote:
I've never thought about it much. I just think of Pascal and it's enough for me. I don't really lose sleep over it. I don't know accurate this graph is, but it gets the point across. Christians and Muslims are all praying to one person. Really depends on what kind of Christian you are. Lots of controversy over "persons" Well I mean Muslims believe that Jesus was a great guy and all but just wasn't the son of God. They actually tie all three together in ways and say "Yeah this is God, but you guys are doing it wrong." Christians do the same thing to Jews in a way.
No, I mean this is the whole problem of the trinity. One god/three persons and so on. I'm not expert on this but the details of this were a major source of controversy in the early middle ages and catholics, protestants, orthodox and so on have different doctrines on this as a result of this history (roman vs. byzantine and so on). So if you say Muslims and Christians worship the same person you are already miring yourself in theological difficulties
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On November 16 2012 05:55 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 05:46 Recognizable wrote:On November 16 2012 05:03 sam!zdat wrote:
what do you mean "both possibilities" God/no god......... Yeah but which "God" Also I don't really understand what the "no god" position would be. Can you elaborate? Like, what is logical form of the claim here? Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 05:46 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:On November 16 2012 05:35 sam!zdat wrote:On November 16 2012 05:33 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:On November 16 2012 05:15 guN-viCe wrote:On November 15 2012 05:13 OmniEulogy wrote:
I've never thought about it much. I just think of Pascal and it's enough for me. I don't really lose sleep over it. I don't know accurate this graph is, but it gets the point across. Christians and Muslims are all praying to one person. Really depends on what kind of Christian you are. Lots of controversy over "persons" Well I mean Muslims believe that Jesus was a great guy and all but just wasn't the son of God. They actually tie all three together in ways and say "Yeah this is God, but you guys are doing it wrong." Christians do the same thing to Jews in a way. No, I mean this is the whole problem of the trinity. One god/three persons and so on. I'm not expert on this but the details of this were a major source of controversy in the early middle ages and catholics, protestants, orthodox and so on have different doctrines on this as a result of this history (roman vs. byzantine and so on). So if you say Muslims and Christians worship the same person you are already miring yourself in theological difficulties
It doesn't matter which god. Are you just trolling?
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On November 16 2012 05:59 Recognizable wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 05:55 sam!zdat wrote:On November 16 2012 05:46 Recognizable wrote:On November 16 2012 05:03 sam!zdat wrote:
what do you mean "both possibilities" God/no god......... Yeah but which "God" Also I don't really understand what the "no god" position would be. Can you elaborate? Like, what is logical form of the claim here? On November 16 2012 05:46 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:On November 16 2012 05:35 sam!zdat wrote:On November 16 2012 05:33 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:On November 16 2012 05:15 guN-viCe wrote:On November 15 2012 05:13 OmniEulogy wrote:
I've never thought about it much. I just think of Pascal and it's enough for me. I don't really lose sleep over it. I don't know accurate this graph is, but it gets the point across. Christians and Muslims are all praying to one person. Really depends on what kind of Christian you are. Lots of controversy over "persons" Well I mean Muslims believe that Jesus was a great guy and all but just wasn't the son of God. They actually tie all three together in ways and say "Yeah this is God, but you guys are doing it wrong." Christians do the same thing to Jews in a way. No, I mean this is the whole problem of the trinity. One god/three persons and so on. I'm not expert on this but the details of this were a major source of controversy in the early middle ages and catholics, protestants, orthodox and so on have different doctrines on this as a result of this history (roman vs. byzantine and so on). So if you say Muslims and Christians worship the same person you are already miring yourself in theological difficulties It doesn't matter which god. Are you just trolling?
No, absolutely not. I actually want you to try to submit a positive thesis describing the atheistic position.
edit: it is the sure sign of being mired in ideology when anyone who asks you to describe your position seems like a troll
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On November 16 2012 05:55 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 05:46 Recognizable wrote:On November 16 2012 05:03 sam!zdat wrote:
what do you mean "both possibilities" God/no god......... Yeah but which "God" Also I don't really understand what the "no god" position would be. Can you elaborate? Like, what is logical form of the claim here? Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 05:46 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:On November 16 2012 05:35 sam!zdat wrote:On November 16 2012 05:33 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:On November 16 2012 05:15 guN-viCe wrote:On November 15 2012 05:13 OmniEulogy wrote:
I've never thought about it much. I just think of Pascal and it's enough for me. I don't really lose sleep over it. I don't know accurate this graph is, but it gets the point across. Christians and Muslims are all praying to one person. Really depends on what kind of Christian you are. Lots of controversy over "persons" Well I mean Muslims believe that Jesus was a great guy and all but just wasn't the son of God. They actually tie all three together in ways and say "Yeah this is God, but you guys are doing it wrong." Christians do the same thing to Jews in a way. No, I mean this is the whole problem of the trinity. One god/three persons and so on. I'm not expert on this but the details of this were a major source of controversy in the early middle ages and catholics, protestants, orthodox and so on have different doctrines on this as a result of this history (roman vs. byzantine and so on). So if you say Muslims and Christians worship the same person you are already miring yourself in theological difficulties
Could be a being in many forms or something. I don't even want to go down that road... I just use "person" because saying "God" too much is tiring.
Same being? Same "thing"?
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Yeah, sure, but that's just my point. When you talk about these things you have to 1) be very careful about what concepts are already presupposed in your language and 2) refrain from thinking that just because there are a lot of unfortunate mythic-participatory religious folk with superstitious beliefs and a difficulty with confirmation bias doesn't mean that you, the Enlightened atheist with all yr rational thoughtz, have all the answers, because you don't.
edit: (this is less directed at you than the other guy who thinks he's so smart)
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On November 16 2012 06:12 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 05:59 Recognizable wrote:On November 16 2012 05:55 sam!zdat wrote:On November 16 2012 05:46 Recognizable wrote:On November 16 2012 05:03 sam!zdat wrote:
what do you mean "both possibilities" God/no god......... Yeah but which "God" Also I don't really understand what the "no god" position would be. Can you elaborate? Like, what is logical form of the claim here? On November 16 2012 05:46 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:On November 16 2012 05:35 sam!zdat wrote:On November 16 2012 05:33 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:On November 16 2012 05:15 guN-viCe wrote:On November 15 2012 05:13 OmniEulogy wrote:
I've never thought about it much. I just think of Pascal and it's enough for me. I don't really lose sleep over it. I don't know accurate this graph is, but it gets the point across. Christians and Muslims are all praying to one person. Really depends on what kind of Christian you are. Lots of controversy over "persons" Well I mean Muslims believe that Jesus was a great guy and all but just wasn't the son of God. They actually tie all three together in ways and say "Yeah this is God, but you guys are doing it wrong." Christians do the same thing to Jews in a way. No, I mean this is the whole problem of the trinity. One god/three persons and so on. I'm not expert on this but the details of this were a major source of controversy in the early middle ages and catholics, protestants, orthodox and so on have different doctrines on this as a result of this history (roman vs. byzantine and so on). So if you say Muslims and Christians worship the same person you are already miring yourself in theological difficulties It doesn't matter which god. Are you just trolling? No, absolutely not. I actually want you to try to submit a positive thesis describing the atheistic position. edit: it is the sure sign of being mired in ideology when anyone who asks you to describe your position seems like a troll
I just assumed you were knowledgeable enough to know what the Atheistic, Agnostic and Theistic positions were. I understand where you are coming from, but I'm not making a philosophical theory and having to define everything would be tiring, especially if other people have already done so.
have all the answers, because you don't.
Where have I ever taken the position that I have all the answers. Great strawman you have going on there.
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How can I have anything other than a strawman when you won't tell me what you think?
What does it mean to say "there is no god"
I legitimately, seriously, cannot parse this claim.
edit: and when you say things like "it doesn't matter which god" it's hardly fair to accuse someone else of failing to appreciate one's position
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Personally if I was in that situation I'd start to yell out the navy seal copypasta at them until they leave
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On November 16 2012 06:42 sam!zdat wrote:
How can I have anything other than a strawman when you won't tell me what you think?
What does it mean to say "there is no god"
I legitimately, seriously, cannot parse this claim.
edit: and when you say things like "it doesn't matter which god" it's hardly fair to accuse someone else of failing to appreciate one's position
I'm not an Atheist, you tell me, here wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism. Assuming each others positions will get us nowhere, the same way arguing semantics will get us nowhere.
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ugh, the "semantics" thing again
Ok. All I really ask is that you be nicer when you denounce people with their (admittedly naive) religious beliefs
edit: but maybe I misunderstand your tone, if so, sorry and continue on your way
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On November 16 2012 06:51 sam!zdat wrote:ugh, the "semantics" thing again Ok. All I really ask is that you be nicer when you denounce people with their (admittedly naive) religious beliefs edit: but maybe I misunderstand your tone, if so, sorry and continue on your way
You started the semantics thing by saying What does it mean to say "there is no god"
I mean, we could try it in programming language or something and assign values to the believe in god and believe in no god or something but I doubt that would get us any further.
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EPT
