EPTIts just what the game is. And its awesome.
BW in hindsight - Page 2
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sheaRZerg
United States613 Posts
Its just what the game is. And its awesome. | ||
Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
Perhaps I expressed my points the wrong way. What I meant was that BW is better than SC2 primarily because of more interesting units such as the reaver, lurker and vulture, and deeper micro such as muta stacking, carrier hit-and-runs and Terran mech positioning. When people say that the Colossus is plain boring, I agree 100%. It's just that for some complaints about SC2 such as gateway units being too weak and colossi too strong, I can draw a parellel with the ling and lurker vs mid-game Terran infantry. Or between the forcefield and the dark swarm (both need to be casted perfectly to survive). What I want to say is that BW was not perfect, but the interesting units and micro it had more than made up for it. Thus when we look at SC2, the priority should be to put in more interesting units and micro. Besides, why would I balance whine about Brood War? I main Protoss and Jangbi won the last 2 OSL's, so I'm pretty happy XD. Dark Swarm is unlike Force Field in the sense that you can move out of Dark Swarm but you can not move out of Force Field because you are literally stuck. On top of this Force fields come from a t1/t1.5 unit and Dark Swarm from a tier 3 unit. Moreover the Defiler has no combat abilities, stacking defilers was meaningless and a detriment to your army composition as they were expensive in gas. Force field can be more compared with spells which prevent micro from happening during battle, these are Stasis, Lockdown and Maelstrom. If you analyze these closely you will see Lockdown is not efficient enough (ghosts were too expensive and Lockdown was single target) Stasis field was on the Arbiter, this was a huge flying ship, easy to pick off with Goliaths or EMP with a Vessel if it was out of position. It was also a t3 unit, took a very long time to build, was expensive and had little to no combat ability(8 damage?). Maelstrom, Only useable against Zerg. It has its niche but carries a HUGE risk, not only do you need to research Maelstrom, you also spend 250 gas on the DTs to morph and the ability revolves around the suprise factor. DTs can be considered a t2 unit aswell. | ||
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Jealous
10254 Posts
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N.geNuity
United States5112 Posts
warp gate with tier 1 forced design of the roach and forced design of marauder being so beefy, which turned sc2 into a game of massing such tier 1 units. Without roach/marine dps or marauders the z or t would just die to warp gate, or turn into retarded turtle with 4 bunkers or 4 spines. Then because roach/marine marauder with stim were so strong they had to make forcefield to let p survive if p didn't just want to go 4 warp gate or something only. Then with the pathing being able to get roaches/marine marauder so tightly packed they made colossus and nerfed storm (storm couldn't be too strong or would destroy the army clumping pathing AI), which everyone knows colossus sucks in terms of having fun/spectating. also meet kwanro. | ||
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
On October 18 2012 01:19 EffervescentAureola wrote: SC2 has more variety of strategies, but BW was exciting for its own reasons. Nice analysis tho, I appreciate you putting this together! Lol nope. | ||
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Nazza
Australia1654 Posts
On October 17 2012 17:58 targ wrote: 1. Gameplay and Balance Zerg is the race that has to turtle during tier 1 in TvZ, as stimmed infantry with medics shred hydras and lings with ease. Therefore Zerg had to get lurkers or mutas to fight the Terran tier 1 marine medic composition. If the T did some early push e.g. one base 5 rax, Zerg would have to hide behind a wall of sunken colonies. Depends, really... I mean, zerg probably has a hard time vs 1 base bio (not with 5 rax lol), which like no one except the most scumbaggery of cheesers do, but a Z opening 9 pool vs a 1 rax FE would probably feel very very safe. Zerglings in BW have a higher attack speed, and Terran actually feels very insecure until medic tech. Zerg doesn't get mutas or lurkers to fight M&M.... they get mutas/lurkers to get map control, mostly so that they could get a third gas unhindered, which then transitions into defiler play, etc. etc. Keep in mind this is all vs 1 rax FE. If T decides to 2 port wraith or play mech, it's a different story. Conversely if the Terran managed to take out all the lurkers, Zerg could not stop the Terran assault no matter how many lings they had. There's also a certain tier 3 caster unit for zerg that casts some spell that blocks all ranged attacks. I also hear that all terran units are pretty much ranged. Lurkers don't actually.... kill anything unless up a ramp or something. You really need lurker/ling, with lings to surround. Good terran players (hell, mediocre terran players) will just split marines. Or just make tanks. Or just switch to mech. Or just make vessels. (Every time a vessel irradiates a lurker, i hear the sounds of a raven crying itself to sleep). When it comes to "how each race should feel like", we generally feel that Protoss should be the race of few but powerful units, Zerg of numerous but weak ones, while Terran is in the midle. Yet in actual BW matchups, things were not like that at all. In PvT Protoss had to overrun the Terran mech army with superior numbers of gateway units, while in TvZ Zerg used a smaller number of higher tech units to hold back the more numerous Terran infantry, either mutas picking them off or lurkers stopping them at chokes. While this definition is probably defined by lore or some shit, in actual gameplay, T is defined with the strongest lategame army but the least amount of bases, while Z is defined by the most amount of bases, but relatively weaker lategame army. And to the most part, this holds true for every matchup. The fact that there is a consistency in gameplay is all that matters. It actually doesn't matter too much for aesthetics imo. Would rather see lurkers and dark swarms and defilers eating lings rather than a swarm of roaches. 3. Usable Units One thing that struck me in BW was the sheer number of units that could not be used in various matchups. The most obvious example of this was Terran bio, which could not be used at all beyond the very early game against Protoss or Terran. Mech, admittedly, could be used in all matchups. Starport units... drops and vessels could be used in all matchups too, but apart from the occasional wraith or valk against Zerg, the fighting spacecraft could really only be used in TvT. As for Zerg, the Tier 3 flyers, guardians and devourers, were hardly used at all. Heck even the iconic hydra was really used against Toss only, aside from occasionally facing Terran mech. While on the Protoss side, carriers were only used against Terran. Our beloved icons, hydras and carriers, only starred in one matchup each. 2 Port wraith is used quite frequently vs Zerg, as is valkonic. Deep six/bio vs protoss is used not as frequently, but it is used. Bio vs Protoss is actually extremely deadly, pre storm and pre reaver especially. After reavers and storm, it becomes exponentially harder, but stimmed M&M actually slices through goons like butter. Hydras are only used vs mech, but late game mech is becoming more standard anyways. Hydras would be used ZvZ if Hive Tech ZvZ took off. I've seen sair/reaver transition into carriers on cliff maps vs zerg. I will agree with t3 flyers. Devourers don't really have a place, but that was not a fault of the devourer, but rather that scourge are really good. 4. What I am trying to say (edited in) I'm not trying to knock BW here - You did that when you put the words "in hindsight" in your title... >.> | ||
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Zergneedsfood
United States10671 Posts
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targ
Malaysia445 Posts
On October 18 2012 01:02 c3rberUs wrote: Ain't the Dark Swarm 'swarmy' enough for you?  Lol man you know what I mean.. it's an orange cloud! | ||
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targ
Malaysia445 Posts
On October 18 2012 02:13 Kipsate wrote: Dark Swarm is unlike Force Field in the sense that you can move out of Dark Swarm but you can not move out of Force Field because you are literally stuck. On top of this Force fields come from a t1/t1.5 unit and Dark Swarm from a tier 3 unit. Moreover the Defiler has no combat abilities, stacking defilers was meaningless and a detriment to your army composition as they were expensive in gas. Force field can be more compared with spells which prevent micro from happening during battle, these are Stasis, Lockdown and Maelstrom. If you analyze these closely you will see Lockdown is not efficient enough (ghosts were too expensive and Lockdown was single target) Stasis field was on the Arbiter, this was a huge flying ship, easy to pick off with Goliaths or EMP with a Vessel if it was out of position. It was also a t3 unit, took a very long time to build, was expensive and had little to no combat ability(8 damage?). Maelstrom, Only useable against Zerg. It has its niche but carries a HUGE risk, not only do you need to research Maelstrom, you also spend 250 gas on the DTs to morph and the ability revolves around the suprise factor. DTs can be considered a t2 unit aswell. I definitely agree that BW spells were better. What I mean is that both Toss in SC2 and Zerg in BW rely on one unit and one spell to keep alive at a certain point in time during the game. Toss needs Sentry/FF early against Z and T, before Storm/Colossi emerge, while Zerg needs Defiler/Dark Swarm against T when the M&M/tank ball comes knocking and cracklings/ultras are not out yet. On October 18 2012 03:25 N.geNuity wrote: It's actually funny to me someone values trying to have even tier 1 balance because that's the single contributing factor that made sc2 much shittier. warp gate with tier 1 forced design of the roach and forced design of marauder being so beefy, which turned sc2 into a game of massing such tier 1 units. Without roach/marine dps or marauders the z or t would just die to warp gate, or turn into retarded turtle with 4 bunkers or 4 spines. Then because roach/marine marauder with stim were so strong they had to make forcefield to let p survive if p didn't just want to go 4 warp gate or something only. Then with the pathing being able to get roaches/marine marauder so tightly packed they made colossus and nerfed storm (storm couldn't be too strong or would destroy the army clumping pathing AI), which everyone knows colossus sucks in terms of having fun/spectating. also meet kwanro. I see your point. Wouldn't you think that warp gate really doesn't fall under "Tier 1 unit balance" but rather a way of removing the defender's advantage? I think that's the real problem with it. For a competitive game, I still think there is some value in establishing balance at Tier 1, as that would make for more early fights and a better watching experience. [QUOTE]On October 18 2012 09:44 Nazza wrote: [QUOTE]On October 17 2012 17:58 targ wrote: [QUOTE] Conversely if the Terran managed to take out all the lurkers, Zerg could not stop the Terran assault no matter how many lings they had. [/QUOTE] There's also a certain tier 3 caster unit for zerg that casts some spell that blocks all ranged attacks. I also hear that all terran units are pretty much ranged. [QUOTE] When it comes to "how each race should feel like", we generally feel that Protoss should be the race of few but powerful units, Zerg of numerous but weak ones, while Terran is in the midle. Yet in actual BW matchups, things were not like that at all. In PvT Protoss had to overrun the Terran mech army with superior numbers of gateway units, while in TvZ Zerg used a smaller number of higher tech units to hold back the more numerous Terran infantry, either mutas picking them off or lurkers stopping them at chokes. [/QUOTE] While this definition is probably defined by lore or some shit, in actual gameplay, T is defined with the strongest lategame army but the least amount of bases, while Z is defined by the most amount of bases, but relatively weaker lategame army. And to the most part, this holds true for every matchup. The fact that there is a consistency in gameplay is all that matters. It actually doesn't matter too much for aesthetics imo. Would rather see lurkers and dark swarms and defilers eating lings rather than a swarm of roaches. [QUOTE] 4. What I am trying to say (edited in) I'm not trying to knock BW here - [/QUOTE] You did that when you put the words "in hindsight" in your title... >.>[/QUOTE] I should have clarified that I meant pre-defiler, when you really needed lurkers at choke points to defend. I do agree with your point that the gameplay is consistent with Terran having the fewest bases while Zerg has the most. My complaint here is mostly based on it not matching lore in a way - Protoss should have fewer units in every matchup. Granted it is a pretty minor point. As for the "Hindsight" title, I put it because, well, with the end of the MSL and OSL, I doubt there will be many changes to BW play at the highest level, as most major shifts in playstyle came from the Korean pros. So I'm not trying to imply that BW is dead, more that there will be much fewer changes, and much slower innovation. | ||
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On October 18 2012 11:37 endy wrote: We saw Sea (yes Liquid`Sea) beating Pusan yesterday night with a 1 base bio build in TvP, was so good ! which game? | ||
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
The first game where Sea on Tau cross proxy double rax at 11 supply and tried to rush pusan with that initial force he slams down an academy and proceeds to pump out firebats and medics and marines . Really interesting game .. | ||
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Funnytoss
Taiwan1471 Posts
On October 18 2012 12:14 Sawamura wrote: The first game where Sea on Tau cross proxy double rax at 11 supply and tried to rush pusan with that initial force he slams down an academy and proceeds to pump out firebats and medics and marines . Really interesting game .. The build worked as well as it did partly because the map allows for one supply depot to completely block off the choke point. Man, that hero firebat with 20 kills... Protoss nightmare! | ||
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ieatkids5
United States4628 Posts
On October 18 2012 01:19 EffervescentAureola wrote: SC2 has more variety of strategies, but BW was exciting for its own reasons. Nice analysis tho, I appreciate you putting this together! you can win in sc2 using a larger variety of strategies because sc2 is still young. in bw, the strategies have been tried and tested and refined so much that only the best remain. sc2's strats are still developing, so even mediocre stratsgies (mediocre relative to strategies that are left once the game is closer to being solved) can be used to win. in the coming years, we should see the number of strategies in sc2 decrease until only several are viable. this is not saying more or less strategies is a good thing, im simply describing what and why,. | ||
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Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
I definitely agree that BW spells were better. What I mean is that both Toss in SC2 and Zerg in BW rely on one unit and one spell to keep alive at a certain point in time during the game. Toss needs Sentry/FF early against Z and T, before Storm/Colossi emerge, while Zerg needs Defiler/Dark Swarm against T when the M&M/tank ball comes knocking and cracklings/ultras are not out yet. That is not the point nor the importance, it is fine to rely on a single unit. It is about the anti-micro concept that the units create relative to when the units are available, how costly they are, how combat efficient they are and how hard they are to take out. That is why the sentry, while a very powerfull and in the current state of the game needed unit is not one which I like. let us look back at one of your previous statements But when I reminicise about Brood War, I remember that TvZ was the same in a way. Lings would get chewed up easily by the mid-game marine/medic army no matter how many Zerg threw at them, but once lurkers got into position, Terran infantry would melt into blood in seconds. So lings were mainly there to draw fire for the lurkers, or cut off a retreat. Conversely if the Terran managed to take out all the lurkers, Zerg could not stop the Terran assault no matter how many lings they had. If we replace the word "lings" with "gateway units" and "lurkers" with "colossi", doesn't that seem like the current PvT matchup in SC2? The answer to this is no, why? Because lings and lurkers aren't automatically stronger then MnM, with proper micro one would be able to perform hit and runs, you stop the lings and lurkers in its tracks, MnM can beat lurkers with efficient micro. Micro that is two-sided. Let us look at Collosi, sentry, zealot versus the aforementioned MnM. One can't micro against this ball in similair fashion, Collosi outrange any unit the Terran has to offer in his MnM composition and it has zero setup time. This combined with force fields makes it almost impossible for a Terran to perform hit and run attacks on a collosi ball or stop it in its tracks. By the time one achieves collosi, the Terran will have to have vikings prepared. There is nothing wrong with this, but you are drawing the wrong paralells. | ||
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