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I wanted to write a long sarcastic post about how Blizzard is killing esports with UI changes in StarCraft. I would first imply HotS, but then say that they started doing it wrong with first SC and second WC. Something like
- unlimited unit selection is bad! Hell, allowing selecting more than 1 unit is bad! It obviously lowers the skill ceiling compared to selecting 4/12! And control group, what is that? Flash could play with no control groups, because he is god damn + Show Spoiler + macro god!
- MBS? Hell yeah, it's bad! But the root of problems is how Blizzard casualised macro from the get go! Queueing, what is that? And why don't you need to go to a separate screen to select what another unit to build, like you did in Dune2? That's right, Dune2, newfags! You don't know how mechanically demanding that game was!
- speaking of Dune2, you couldn't even right-click to move or attack in that game! Hell yeah, bad UIs are what esports needs!
...etc, etc, etc. That would be an article full of sarcasm and trolling, but I decided that the topic is discussed to death anyway.
Instead, I want to discuss slightly another angle today. I encountered yet another "Why is SC2 less popular than BW and LoL in Korea" topics. These are always funny. BroodWar elitist always chime in with their thoughts and bring arguments which completely ignore "and LoL" part. Truth is, for "mainstream" gamers Korea and China are not synoimous with BroodWar and Dota, but with simplistic grindy MMOs.
Let's face the cold harsh truth: hard games were successful in 1990s, because there were only hard games. The pinnacle of gaming were the arcades, and arcade games were designed to be punishing and unfare, because they fed on your coins. "Easy" games came later, when the gaming became more popular.
These days the most successful games are the games with easy mechanics. The biggest online games are Call of Duty, World of Warcraft and League of Legends, and not Counter Strike and StarCraft. Hard games are a niche. It can be a big niche, but you need a lot of effort to be successful with a hard game. Much more effort then what Activision does with repackaging COD4 every other year.
And hard games change too. You can't release a game with BroodWar's UI today, period. It would not succeed in Korea, it would not succeed anywhere. Actually, RTS as a genre is a hard place today, and a few surviving series have much simpler mechanics or UI.
Look again at LoL and Dota 2. UI is simple and streamlined. You don't need to mess with control groups. You don't need to worry about dragoons doing there thing after you sent them across the map.
If we look at Perimeter, Supreme Commander, Total War, World in Conflict -- we see a streamlined UI and lower mechanics requirement. Oh, and those games don't last long anyway, they are too hardcore for general demographic. The future of RTS genre seems a lot like End of Nations.
A lot of reviewers wondered why didn't StarCraft 2 borrow macro features of Supreme Commander. Yet, SC2 still has a lot of BroodWar's mechanics, even with streamlined UI and better unit pathing. Because you don't need bad UI to introduce high skill ceiling. Dota 2 doesn't have any UI problems of BroodWar. The difficulty of Dota 2 is in playing the game against your opponents, not in fighting against the game itself. You have enough tools in game to manifest your skill both in Dota 2 and StarCraft 2 (and even more so in Heart of the Swarm), because the game doesn't play itself for you. You still need to build your building and units, and move them around the map -- even if you don't need to do it one at a time, like in Dune 2.
And Blizzard continues to improve the UI of StarCraft 2. Showing more information to the player is better UI. Displaying the number of mining workers and radius of scan is better UI. MBS and unlimited control groups is better UI. You don't make games with bad UI in 2012, because only a few stubborn BroodWar elitists demand it.
  
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Broodwar is not loved primarily because it is "difficult" or because they loved the UI. I don't actually know how to take the time to address everything your blog glosses over or just skips. (non-broodwar player)
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Offtopic, it would probably do decently as an indi-game with a niche audience, if it were released EXACTLY as it currently is today.
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Instead, I want to discuss slightly another angle today. I encountered yet another "Why is SC2 less popular than BW and LoL in Korea" topics. These are always funny. BroodWar elitist always chime in with their thoughts and bring arguments which completely ignore "and LoL" part. Truth is, for "mainstream" gamers Korea and China are not synoimous with BroodWar and Dota, but with simplistic grindy MMOs.
SC2 is less popular than BW and LoL in Korea because it's not as fun.
Anyways, if you put some fancy graphics on BW and hyped it up with a lot of advertising, I'm sure it would do fine released nowadays. At least if there was no precedent RTS similar to it.
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Controlling units in BW just feels good. Watching it does also feel good, but that might be me. I don't know what to say, but the fact that BW feels great. The easy games you are referring to, like COD etc.. There's a reason why they last one year.
Oh, and I really don't see how hard it is it to select your workers and check saturation. They require a simple action, and this is NOT hard at all. Knowing the fact that 16 workers is enough on one mineral line is half the battle.
Easier is not better. It just entertains people that pay attention less on a bigger basis than "hard".
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It's not even about being harder. It's about not controlling your units around like a large school of fish while doing nothing for 20 minutes.
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Broodwar is not loved primarily because it is "difficult" or because they loved the UI. I don't actually know how to take the time to address everything your blog glosses over or just skips. (non-broodwar player)
Broodwar was loved, because Broodwar is an awesome game, it's impossible to deny that. The UI/unit pathing might be bad for a modern game in 2012, but it was very good for 1998. And Broodwar is great for a spectator, better than SC2 (aside from old graphics)
SC2 is less popular than BW and LoL in Korea because it's not as fun.
Fun is subjective. I don't find last-hitting fun. I don't find fiddling with limited control groups and pathing AI in Broodwar fun. Most people find CoD more fun than BW and LoL. A lot of Koreans find Aion more fun than BW and LoL.
And again, Broodwar is fun to watch of course.
Anyways, if you put some fancy graphics on BW and hyped it up with a lot of advertising, I'm sure it would do fine released nowadays. At least if there was no precedent RTS similar to it.
We have a precedent of decline in RTS as a whole. I doubt it would be as successful as SC2 was
Easier is not better. It just entertains people that pay attention less on a bigger basis than "hard".
"Easier" or "more difficult" should not imply better or worse UI. BF3 is harder than CoD, even though they share mostly the same UI. Same with Dota 2 and LoL. A lot of people who actually play HotS say that it's harder than WoL despite "easier" UI.
It's not even about being harder. It's about not controlling your units around like a large school of fish while doing nothing for 20 minutes.
Yes, I know, SC2 is a game where you do nothing for 20 minutes, while the game plays for itself. Let's go on with this quality of discussion!
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If that's the case, then Starcraft 2 is going to fail. It can't be a 'hard' game because that's not what the casual gamer wants, but if there isn't a high skill ceiling than winning becomes more coin flippy and the only reason to spectate would be colourful battles.
Or something.
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Fun is subjective. I don't find last-hitting fun. I don't find fiddling with limited control groups and pathing AI in Broodwar fun. Most people find CoD more fun than BW and LoL. A lot of Koreans find Aion more fun than BW and LoL.
And again, Broodwar is fun to watch of course.
Well since you put it that way lets put out of my definition here at least . I don't find it fun seeing my units feel more weaker than it is in broodwar especially in my tanks in sc2 . Watching sc2 in proleague is boring and yeah fake orgasm about banelings hitting the mineral line of it's opponent makes me face palm so hard . I told my self I never going to watch sc2 again in my life . I want to carry on about my definition of fun and I can't because if I do it's just another bw elitist being a numb skull trying to say his game superior > others even though by right if both games are compared from a spectator point of view I find sc2 inferior because it isn't clear . I don't know what's happening on the screen and blobs of units all are on top each other for some kind of a unholy orgy crusade .
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First, cut it out with the BW elitists crap. It makes you look like an idiot.
Second, your definition of bad UI is utterly subjective. What makes 12 unit selection, single building selection etc. "bad"? Your only argument is because you think it makes the game too hard and you are "fighting against the UI". Where do you draw the line then? Fuck I shouldn't have to build workers in SC2 they should automatically build so I can focus on my strategy without fighting the UI!!! You don't consider the fact that having the UI too automated would rob the game of its depth.
The only reason why you can't release a game with BW's UI is because of the vast amount of casuals that would complain. It doesn't have anything to do with better or worse gameplay, it's just purely related to popularity and sales. BW had a 13 year old professional scene. According to your argument, why didn't it just die out after a few years when people released games with better UI?
I'm not even sure what the point of this blog is. Basically all you are saying is that easy games are the most popular and sell the most. No shit. I get the feeling that all you want to do is to take a dig at BW fans.
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On September 09 2012 20:20 BookTwo wrote:
If that's the case, then Starcraft 2 is going to fail. It can't be a 'hard' game because that's not what the casual gamer wants, but if there isn't a high skill ceiling than winning becomes more coin flippy and the only reason to spectate would be colourful battles.
Or something.
Sigh...
Why do people insist that high skill ceiling equals bad UI? I repeat: BF3 is harder and has higher skill ceiling than CoD, even though it has the same UI...
BECAUSE OF GAMEPLAY DIFFERENCES
Dota 2 has higher skill ceiling than LoL, but their UI is very close to each other
BECAUSE OF GAMEPLAY DIFFERENCES
@Artosis
some initial thoughts on HotS: for Protoss, this expansion is awesome. finally i feel like i need more hotkeys and more speed
BECAUSE OF GAMEPLAY DIFFERENCES
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On September 09 2012 20:36 Alexj wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 20:20 BookTwo wrote:
If that's the case, then Starcraft 2 is going to fail. It can't be a 'hard' game because that's not what the casual gamer wants, but if there isn't a high skill ceiling than winning becomes more coin flippy and the only reason to spectate would be colourful battles.
Or something. Sigh... Why do people insist that high skill ceiling equals bad UI? I repeat: BF3 is harder and has higher skill ceiling than CoD, even though it has the same UI... BECAUSE OF GAMEPLAY DIFFERENCES Dota 2 has higher skill ceiling than LoL, but their UI is very close to each other BECAUSE OF GAMEPLAY DIFFERENCES @Artosis
some initial thoughts on HotS: for Protoss, this expansion is awesome. finally i feel like i need more hotkeys and more speedhttps://twitter.com/Artosis/status/244254717893554177BECAUSE OF GAMEPLAY DIFFERENCES
You're saying this as if UI and gameplay were totally unrelated things and that UI had absolutely no impact on the gameplay...
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On September 09 2012 19:54 Wintex wrote:
Controlling units in BW just feels good. Watching it does also feel good, but that might be me. I don't know what to say, but the fact that BW feels great. The easy games you are referring to, like COD etc.. There's a reason why they last one year.
Oh, and I really don't see how hard it is it to select your workers and check saturation. They require a simple action, and this is NOT hard at all. Knowing the fact that 16 workers is enough on one mineral line is half the battle.
Easier is not better. It just entertains people that pay attention less on a bigger basis than "hard".
I don't know about you but when I played Brood War briefly, wrestling with the AI and pathfinding was one of the most horrific experiences I've ever had with an RTS, whether it heightened the skill ceiling or not. Reason? I like it when games work properly, and I can see why a lot of other people hate Brood War for that reason. On the flipside, I also see why people love it for that reason because it adds somewhat of a dynamic to the game where you have to make sure your army isn't derping into lurkers or tank fire.
If Brood War was released today, ignoring graphics it would be slammed for terrible AI and pathfinding and an overall bad UI interface. If you were to go totally blind into Brood War without having knowledge of the pro scene or community you would be scared off quickly. The main reason it is still going today is that people who play it were ridiculously persistant it learning it, and knew that there was a relatively balanced and fun game if you managed to ignore the AI and bugs in the game. As a free indie game released today I doubt it would even maintain a niche community for very long which would be a shame.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
UI people UI, not IU, IU is a different kind of thing
Anyway BW was succesfull due to the Korean culture and economic problems aswell as the accessibility of it, all things irrelevant to the gameplay itself.
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OP does not know what UI is.
OP writes about UI.
Fail OP.
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Croatia9529 Posts
On September 09 2012 20:53 LucidityDark wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 19:54 Wintex wrote:
Controlling units in BW just feels good. Watching it does also feel good, but that might be me. I don't know what to say, but the fact that BW feels great. The easy games you are referring to, like COD etc.. There's a reason why they last one year.
Oh, and I really don't see how hard it is it to select your workers and check saturation. They require a simple action, and this is NOT hard at all. Knowing the fact that 16 workers is enough on one mineral line is half the battle.
Easier is not better. It just entertains people that pay attention less on a bigger basis than "hard". I don't know about you but when I played Brood War briefly, wrestling with the AI and pathfinding was one of the most horrific experiences I've ever had with an RTS, whether it heightened the skill ceiling or not. Reason? I like it when games work properly, and I can see why a lot of other people hate Brood War for that reason. On the flipside, I also see why people love it for that reason because it adds somewhat of a dynamic to the game where you have to make sure your army isn't derping into lurkers or tank fire. If Brood War was released today, ignoring graphics it would be slammed for terrible AI and pathfinding and an overall bad UI interface. If you were to go totally blind into Brood War without having knowledge of the pro scene or community you would be scared off quickly. The main reason it is still going today is that people who play it were ridiculously persistant it learning it, and knew that there was a relatively balanced and fun game if you managed to ignore the AI and bugs in the game. As a free indie game released today I doubt it would even maintain a niche community for very long which would be a shame.
Are you seriously saying that every player who started playing BW was aware of pro scene and community and had a horrific experience when tried it, but remained persistent with it just so he could potentially have fun later?
I don't even...
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yea sc2 is so great that's why I will buy HOTS and mass warhounds
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I think one aspect of the BW handling is always ignored and that's the possibilities for expressing yourself in the game. If you compare for example two instruments like a piano and a single bongo drum. Sure you can express yourself on the bongos and do some freaking amazing things with it but a piano has a much broader range. You can do almost anything with a piano because it is more complex and more difficult to handle. It has options and nearly endless possbilities to express yourself. I think the same thing is true about BW, just by watching a game I can tell which player is playing right now, every player has a certain style and character and strengths/weaknesses which arise through the UI. So being more complex isn't necessarily worse. Harder can also be more rewarding and add another layer to the game.
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you're confusing ui with gameplay stuffs bro
your definition is pretty wrong. mbs and infinite select and automine aren't ui.
competitive games are about skill. in general adding stuff that limits your decisions and automates things takes away from showing skill. that's not neccesarily true for bw to sc2 but it's a slippery slope.
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Well this blog is a total eye sore.
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A great deal of people do not appreciate competitive games. Frankly it is when you start looking past the UI when the game really starts to matter, when you start to see the magic and understand what's going on. It's like not playing chess cause you don't like how the pieces look, or because you can't be bothered to learn notation (that one is a better analogy).
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EPT
