On September 04 2012 06:59 ex_cutd10 wrote: I wish GOMTV would have the choice of Korean or English commentary for GSL, i want to hear the new quotes, just like back in BW, where the commentators would shout "AHHHH PLAAAYYYGUUUU" and "REAVER-REAVER-REAVER-REAVER".
During an event league between 2 of the open seasons (probably it was team inhouse league or some shit like that), there was some "KOOSHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI KOSHI" in 3 seconds or something like that (the colossus was focused by Terran and survived the battle with 1 HP while all T units get killed). However I heard no big quotes except that.
On September 04 2012 06:59 ex_cutd10 wrote: I wish GOMTV would have the choice of Korean or English commentary for GSL, i want to hear the new quotes, just like back in BW, where the commentators would shout "AHHHH PLAAAYYYGUUUU" and "REAVER-REAVER-REAVER-REAVER".
And I disagree with Qbek, Tobi and Synderen are very knowledgeable, far beyond what is often seen even in the upper echelons of matchmaking. It is hardly at silver or gold level.
Tobi's Black Holes and Ravages are really hardcore though.
You are completely right. Allthough some of the "knowledge" from these casters you stated (like how items or heros work or such) is pretty common to any Dota player, their analysis and understanding was always spot on and way superior to sc2 castings. I feel like d.apollo is a good example of how casters can improve cause the few times a year I see him he always seems to be getting better, but overall you are completely right.
I just think Dota 2 lends itself to casting more easily. There's so many heroes in Dota, and the metagame switches constantly, so the casters will always have a "different" game to cast, new situations specific to the game etc. In SC2 is doesn't work like that, it's very rigid. If it's a TvZ, one of maybe 5 things can happen, 3 of which are unusual. The casters cast many games each day, most of them extremely similar. In dota 2, a single different hero changes the casting experience totaly (for example, look at game 1 and game 2 of the international 2 final. VERY similar teams, but that dragon knight pick completely changed the game up.)
As was stated before though, knowing all the heroes, all their abilities and all the items, and knowing which builds are orthodox/unorthodox is gold-level knowledge in dota 2, if even that. It seems like a ridiculous amount of information if you haven't played the game, but it's actually learned fairly quickly. I knew nothing about dota when I got the beta (had only played dota 1 a few times many years ago) and after 1-2 months of casual playing, I knew most of it.
That said, the casting WAS extremely good in the international... I was especially impressed by the final, because up until this point, I've felt there were two dota 2 casters worth mentioning: Tobi Wan and Purge, and I've never liked Tobi because of his voice and how I don't feel he analyses the game clearly enough. However, he has seemed like THE caster, so I was shocked when he wasn't casting the final, and even more chocked when I realized it was THE best dota 2 casting I've heard.
The problem with PLLLLLLLLLAAAAAAAAAAAAAGUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU is that our casters have attached to that word all by itself and interpreted it as "Oh so i should just scream words during my cast and it creates excitement and emotion", without understanding or accepting everything else leading up to it, surrounding, encompassing, and following, it.
I agree that a large contingient of foreign SC2 casters leave much to be desired. But beyond their enthusiasm, are Dota2 casters great 'communicators of the game'? I had no experience, was watching, could see flashy lights, people hitting eachother and dying, and intermittent screams. I did not learn anything about Dota2 because the casters weren't trying to communicate the game to a complete newbie at MOABs. Granted that's not their goal, but for introductory exposure shouldn't it be. For BW, either you want an English cast because you're not comfortable watching the Korean and aren't completely confident in what's going on, or you can't stand the English casts as they're too simple (you understand more than them) and prefer the Korean. Thing is though, the English cast is only for casual viewers and simple thrills, its easy to out-grow. If you really love the game and want to know more about how it plays, then train, study, get better at it!
I believe its a problem of SC2 English casters being 'casters' first, and trying to get some game-specific knoledge second. So when they work casting the game, hours a day, go figure they won't be super duper passionate to do additional work at getting better at understanding and playing it. You know, it's hard being perfect/me (:
On one hand, you need to be very experienced and knoledgeable about the game, capable of, at any time, recognizing their strategy, predicting what comes next, the potential pitfalls and counters, and being able to string together pieces from the timeline of the game to explain how they got to where they are (e.g. 'CCfirst TvT with gas steal means no gas so more vulnerable to mass wraiths leads to SCV losses to later expansion, therefore behind' all in one thought), and who is leading. That's game knowledge, and I believe its kinda pointless trying to be a caster unless you've watched a ridic ammount of ProGames, know the players and their history, have years of game experience and learning from the best, and have at least once been reasonably compettitive. Being a player is such an integral part of understanding the game as a spectator, because you know exactly how painful it is to loose that many SCVs, and you have experience to know when a game is lost, so you can empathize with what you're watching.
On the opposite side of the spectrum, is the caster's technical ability. Preparation and little bits of trivia and statistics are very nice flourishes to casts, but they're not actually essential, and when you're working a lot they're exactly the sort of thing you get an underling to calculate for you. What I can give credit for in SC2 English casters is (for the most part) their noteworthy technical ability; they sound professionally trained. It sounds like an exciting game where players throw shit at eachother, then one wins, just don't listent too intently to what they're saying or you may find it shallow, dull, or facepalm-worthy.
They're good at that, but sometimes (especially amateur casters) can 'sound very annoying' and not deliver on the performance side. Starting out, without people willing to say 'u sound bad' you need to be very self-aware, even self-concious, to 'just know' how your voice sounds (e.g. bored, nerdy, judgemental, nasal, dull, childish etc.) and modify it to sound more professional. It just takes experience, notably, social experience, and social experience pertaining directly to trying to communicate the game. You can have the coolest thoughts and insights (see that one-thing leading to another from abve) but if you cannot clearly, slowly, but succinctly enunciate that thought, you are worse than a resounding gong. Practicing explaining a live game to people completely un-versed in it (IRL people); in which case, you really need to target what you're saying and explain it on a very simple level. You don't have to use the technical or actual terms for everything, to get across the main gist of their strategy (e.g. fake expo into bust), but a main problem with casters is that they can't adequately tone the level of analysis down (for newbies) or waaay (for their peers and superiors).
Whatever, I'm gonna write a guide about this. Lol ,then people will demand I show evidence of my expertise :/ Nevermind, I'll write a 'suggestions for new casters', which would actually be aimed at most current casters too (:
wahah that's awesome, I think it really matters that it's a 5x5 game instead of a 1v1, you get a lot more exited for good plays, as it's done as a team, and not just the skills of 1 player
Dota2 casting reminds me much more of original sports in that sense, like Soccer
I am in the exact same boat as OP except minus the LoL experience. Maybe it hasn't ruined SC2 casting for me... because I already rarely watch SC2, but it opened the door to DOTA 2 where I had been resistant about giving that genre a chance.
The casting and overall production was very well done, and I enjoyed the games a lot; though I was actively looking up heroes' abilities and trying to understand as much as I could would took some work. I'm planning on giving DOTA 2 a try, and I figure once you understand the game the high-level matches become better to watch.
I feel where you're coming from OP. I feel close to exactly the same. Have been moping about it since the start of SC2, the lack of in depth casters.
There are a few who's capable of it, but when money is involved, I think they want to tend to Bronze, Silver and non player SC2'ers.
When you take people who were completly clueless, like that guy who wears the hat, that swede guy, and quite a few others. They came in, and sucked ass for a year, now they're mediocre, but it's mostly regurgitating crap they've seen or heard before, no intuitive feel, nothing in depth, just bleh.
I think Artosis and Day9 can do it if they change their state and go in for it, I think Incontrol can be pretty sick as well, but feels like they're holding back, and just want to mediocre it. Like they somehow a little afraid to let go, afraid to totally geek out 100%.
At least that's my feel on it, and yes, I loved the old korean casts, back when I gamed sc1 Id always prefer korean casters than to English lol.
I hope this somehow can get the casters we have to step up their game, stop with the silly jokes, what they had for lunch, or what they'd do, or just talking for the sake of talking. And indulge, apply themself to casting and own it up. Not for subcription, fame, money, that shit will all come when you become amazing.
Yay, ok, hope I didn't come out too harsh. Feel a bit bad bashing people.
Dota was released in 2005. SC2 was released in 2010. I don't know how you expect one to be as solved as the other. Go listen to a BW cast - you'll see an incredible depth of knowledge.
On September 04 2012 09:59 Al Bundy wrote: The thing is, from my personal experience, the Dota / LoL commentators don't explain anything. You hear them talking about a ton of stuff that no one can understand except people who actually play the game. That makes the whole spectating experience very frustrating. Everytime I try to watch a dota game, I'm like "what is the purpose of this item? What is this spell?". At the end of the day, I wish the commentators were aware of the casual spectators.
Being able to watch the games and listen to the cast from inside the Dota2 client was really handy for this. I don't know shit about Dota, but I could hover over the items and skills to figure out what they did during the games.
Agree with you OP, the casting was superb and I thoroughly enjoyed the tournament. =)
Someone in this thread raised a good point though, maybe the cast can be made a little more casual-friendly by having the casters give a 2-3 line explanation for items like blink dagger and force staff.
As someone who has played Dota for years but never really watched, TI2 was amazing. The production, games, and especially the casters were all top notch. Watching the games I really got reminded of the korean BW commentators. Ex:
(You should watch this not only because the commentary is so good but also because its an amazing game from Boxer when he was at the end of his BW career)
There is just so much more insight and analysis than in current SC2 casts. Frequently the casters aren't on the mark and have to backtrack from some prediction they made that is totally wrong. I dunno if its because the game is still "immature" so players do the wrong thing sometimes or if the casters' knowledge of the game is lacking but it definitely seems like the casts in Dota are much more insightful.
I think you might just enjoy MOBAS games as a spectator. My experience with league casters is that they aren't really any better or worse then sc2 caster, although I do appreciate that league casters tend to stay on point a lot more often. I think tastosis, particularly artosis, are the best casters I have seen for either game. No DOTA experience however.
Having played a lot of league, I know that league casters really either have no idea what is really going on, or they don't speak of it. Just like sc2.
To be fair, it is easier to seem very knowing to someone completely new as opposed to someone who (presumably) knows a lot about sc2. But yes, I was impressed with what I saw, and all of the casters in the international were very talented.
I have to agree with this.....I had my favorite SC2 casters....and then discovered Tobi. It's like a whole different level of casting, and that's just Tobi, who while very enthusiastic, tends to be wrong fairly often. After discovering the other Dota casters like Synderen and Luminous, it was game over. I'm going to guess that part of it is just that the game itself is so much easier to cast and fun to watch than SC2 since so much is going on, but still it's a noticeable difference in casting quality other than the very, very top tier SC2 casters of all time. Even purge, the "pub caster" of dota 2(almost a husky, I would say) is very knowledgable and just a higher level of caster, period.
And then the International 2. Blizzard should take notes. Hell, EVERYONE organizing esports events should take notes, because it was incredible on every level. The iG vs na'Vi series in the semi-finals was one of the most epic series I have ever seen in any game. The oft replayed failed gank attempt by iG in game 2 will probably go down as one of the greatest single video game moments ever. As a matter of fact, I'm going to watch it again right now.
To be honest I find the casters of both games very similar, its just that SC2 is very new hence there are not many ex-professional players turned caster. Think of the current dota 2 casters as people like Idra/Grubby casting.
EPT
