EPTDota 2 has ruined SC2 Casts for me - Page 2
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hoby2000
United States918 Posts
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nihoh
Australia978 Posts
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
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don_kyuhote
3007 Posts
On September 04 2012 06:48 Gamegene wrote: I have watched Professional Korean broadcasts on Youtube (Jon747 Wifebeater Nevake etc) ever since I came back to America. Jon747! Wifebeater! Oh nostalgia is kicking in now. | ||
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Lyter
United Kingdom2145 Posts
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fire_brand
Canada1123 Posts
Another thing I found irritating was the fact they used short forms for EVERYTHING. I understand that a lot of it is just experience with the game, but you really should be selective, or at least state it a few times at the start so everyone knows what you're talking about. If you just go balls to the wall acronyms it's not very helpful for new viewers and actually really runs the risk of alienating a large potential fan base. That should be worrying to people in dota2. If you want to sell your product you need people to be able to grasp what it is you're talking about. Dota2 is actually a very simple game in comparison to SC2. There is one map, one set of items, and one hero pool and it never changes. The only thing a caster has to know about IS PICKS. If they don't know that then they really have no place commenting on the game. SC2 there are about 100 million maps and hundred different builds. The game changes on the fly constantly while in dota2 the concept is very simple. Get farmed, kill heroes, push lanes, deny heroes from farming. And these are accomplished in mostly singular ways. The meta shift in Dota2 is a lot less pronounced than in SC2 and the casters knowledge doesn't really have to expand ever. Teams in Dota have VERY clearly defined play styles and rarely mix it up to the extent sc2 players do. It would be like casting BETA Idra every game. You could just close your eyes and recite his last game and you'd probably be pretty close. The best thing, and what I believe makes DOTA2 very easy to cast, is the fact there's no dead time to fill. There are 10 heroes on the board, powerup timers, roshan, creep lanes, towers and more. Tasteless' role in DOTA2 does not exist. It's hard to really grasp the amazing job that a lot of sc2 casters do with filling time, especially when put side by side with Dota2 casters. There really is no comparison because that's not a skill dota2 casters will ever need to add to their repertoire. On the other hand Dota2 casters have to follow a ton more stuff. And that is something that people in that community have to figure out a better way of doing. It can be a little frustrating when a caster is following some maneuvering the woods by a few heroes when you see dots on the minimap clash and then a little message saying so and so has killed so and so. A LOT of Sc2 casts were having trouble following big multitasking games with drops and battles happening at the same time, so they fixed it, they found a way to show us all the action at once. I think Dota2 has to learn from their counterparts in sc2 as much as the reverse is true. There's room for improvement on both fronts so instead of just bemoaning that fact casters and broadcasters should just strive to produce a better product. TLDR: Dota 2 doesn't have to fill time so comes off as a better cast, but their casters still have a long way to go. But I wasn't graced with a Tobi Wan cast so I can't pass full judgement. SC2 still could learn some things from them and vice versa so let's all keep getting better. | ||
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Sickkiee
Japan607 Posts
On September 04 2012 12:13 fire_brand wrote: Dota2 is actually a very simple game in comparison to SC2. There is one map, one set of items, and one hero pool and it never changes. The only thing a caster has to know about IS PICKS. If they don't know that then they really have no place commenting on the game. SC2 there are about 100 million maps and hundred different builds. The game changes on the fly constantly while in dota2 the concept is very simple. Get farmed, kill heroes, push lanes, deny heroes from farming. And these are accomplished in mostly singular ways. The meta shift in Dota2 is a lot less pronounced than in SC2 and the casters knowledge doesn't really have to expand ever. Teams in Dota have VERY clearly defined play styles and rarely mix it up to the extent sc2 players do. It would be like casting BETA Idra every game. You could just close your eyes and recite his last game and you'd probably be pretty close. From this statement I can tell you've never played Dota or Dota 2. So I just didn't bother reading the rest of your post. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
I'll give you a hundred dollars if you can name a hundred builds that are used in competitive play. SC2 is a simple game. There's 3 races, 6 different matchups, and around 5-10 different maps per tournament. So you're praising sc2 casters for filling in the time cause nothing is happening? Maybe you should actually know what's going on in both games before you "pass" judgement, cause after watching both the sc2 casters plain out suck for the most part. The korean commentators are miles better than their english counterparts for a reason. | ||
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Gamegene
United States8308 Posts
On September 04 2012 12:52 Itsmedudeman wrote: "hundred different builds" I'll give you a hundred dollars if you can name a hundred builds that are used in competitive play. SC2 is a simple game. There's 3 races, 6 different matchups, and around 5-10 different maps per tournament. ...really? | ||
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Doomblaze
United States1292 Posts
No but neither is dota, saying one or the other is simple is ignorant. He was just making fun of the large post of misinformation. My friends and I make a game out of seeing how many things we call correctly that casters do not, so I notice a lot more of what they don't get then they do. It's awkward when I hear them call out GREAT BLACK HOLE and they kill a support veno with it and then get teamwiped by everybody else, or when the comment on how strong a level 4 tide's ravage (that doesn't exist yet) will be when they're smoke ganking, but they are doing a great job as it is. There's so much going on at once, its impossible to catch everything. Sc2 and dota casts are completely different, its hard to compare them. | ||
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WindWolf
Sweden11767 Posts
Plus TI is the biggest Dota2 tournament, so of course they invite the best to cast that event | ||
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Chunhyang
Bangladesh1389 Posts
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
Think of something for SC2: a player is getting the blink upgrade for his stalkers - what's that for? There isn't one single very obvious reason (not likely at least). You can now harass the enemy base easier, you can position your units around the map more easily and quickly, you will be more effective in battle, the upgrade directly 'counters' a specific unit such as the broodlord. So which are you going to say? Are you going to talk about every one of those possible scenarios? Not only would that take a lot of time, it seems silly to discuss all the possible reasons for getting an upgrade when none or all of those scenarios might happen. So DOTA 2 casts may seem like they are far more informed but I doubt that's the case, the nature of the two games are simply different. | ||
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Sickkiee
Japan607 Posts
On September 04 2012 13:45 Salv wrote: Part of this is probably due to the fact that a DOTA 2 item is going to be used in a very direct way. For example: An Earthshaker picks up blink dagger - what's that for? It's so he can blink into the middle of a group of heroes and use his skill combo to unleash a lot of damage, that's the purpose. Think of something for SC2: a player is getting the blink upgrade for his stalkers - what's that for? There isn't one single very obvious reason (not likely at least). You can now harass the enemy base easier, you can position your units around the map more easily and quickly, you will be more effective in battle, the upgrade directly 'counters' a specific unit such as the broodlord. So which are you going to say? Are you going to talk about every one of those possible scenarios? Not only would that take a lot of time, it seems silly to discuss all the possible reasons for getting an upgrade when none or all of those scenarios might happen. So DOTA 2 casts may seem like they are far more informed but I doubt that's the case, the nature of the two games are simply different. You probably used the worst comparison I've ever seen. Just because an ES picks up a blink dagger - doesn't mean it's sole purpose is to blink into the enemy and ulti. It can be used to escape, position the hero for nice fissures, chasing heroes, grabbing runes, denying creeps and so, so much more. You are right, I don't see why people are comparing the depth of both games. There's no reason to. However, comparing casters is a different story. On September 04 2012 13:28 WindWolf wrote: As someone who has watched Sc2 since last summer and decided to get into Dota2 via TI, I don't think that DotA2 has ruined the casts for me. I think it's more like it takes more to be a good Dota2 caster compared to what it takes to be a good Sc2 caster, but that doesn't mean that I personally think that the Sc2 casters is bad. And since it's two different games, casters from both games are good in their own way. Plus TI is the biggest Dota2 tournament, so of course they invite the best to cast that event Actually they practically invited every caster known to Dota 2 LOL. | ||
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fire_brand
Canada1123 Posts
On September 04 2012 12:52 Sickkiee wrote: From this statement I can tell you've never played Dota or Dota 2. So I just didn't bother reading the rest of your post. I've played dota for about 5 years, dota 2 only for a few months, but I have plenty of experience with the game. In comparison it is much simpler just by the fact there are limited options in the proscene on what they can do against their opponents. There is plenty of other builds and creative shit you can do, but in the competitive scene, with the players as good as they are, you are limited to what works, how you can win. Odds are you aren't going to see a battle ogre in TI2 or a Nyx Assassin on a winning team -_- I'm not saying it's a garbage game that's easier to play or is less complex, it's just at the pro level it's a much simpler beast to cast. The nature of said scene streamlines the game where you don't have to have the same extensive knowledge of the game you might have to in SC2. And like I said there's one map. Once you know all the map features you don't have to learn ANYTHING else about the map, ever. Seriously. And if you continued reading you would have probably read the part where I talked about the things that make it complex. The parts that are actually harder to cast than sc2. For casting however, you don't have to deal with a lot of it. And you don't hear the same akward casts that you get with SC2 by the nature of the whole filling dead game space. The action starts the second the horn blasts and 5 people jet down to bottom rune for first blood. Don't tell me I didn't you didn't bother reading the rest of my post if you're going to post yourself, because then I just really lose all respect for you and your argument. | ||
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Cool Cat
United States1644 Posts
On September 04 2012 13:59 Sickkiee wrote: You probably used the worst comparison I've ever seen. Just because an ES picks up a blink dagger - doesn't mean it's sole purpose is to blink into the enemy and ulti. It can be used to escape, position the hero for nice fissures, chasing heroes, grabbing runes, denying creeps and so, so much more. You are right, I don't see why people are comparing the depth of both games. There's no reason to. However, comparing casters is a different story. Actually they practically invited every caster known to Dota 2 LOL. Not every caster, but certainly most of the well-known casters. | ||
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Sickkiee
Japan607 Posts
On September 04 2012 13:59 fire_brand wrote: I've played dota for about 5 years, dota 2 only for a few months, but I have plenty of experience with the game. In comparison it is much simpler just by the fact there are limited options in the proscene on what they can do against their opponents. There is plenty of other builds and creative shit you can do, but in the competitive scene, with the players as good as they are, you are limited to what works, how you can win. Odds are you aren't going to see a battle ogre in TI2 or a Nyx Assassin on a winning team -_- I'm not saying it's a garbage game that's easier to play or is less complex, it's just at the pro level it's a much simpler beast to cast. The nature of said scene streamlines the game where you don't have to have the same extensive knowledge of the game you might have to in SC2. And like I said there's one map. Once you know all the map features you don't have to learn ANYTHING else about the map, ever. Seriously. And if you continued reading you would have probably read the part where I talked about the things that make it complex. The parts that are actually harder to cast than sc2. For casting however, you don't have to deal with a lot of it. And you don't hear the same akward casts that you get with SC2 by the nature of the whole filling dead game space. The action starts the second the horn blasts and 5 people jet down to bottom rune for first blood. Don't tell me I didn't you didn't bother reading the rest of my post if you're going to post yourself, because then I just really lose all respect for you and your argument. Not sure what you mean by the last part but ok. You contradict yourself by saying that the game is much simpler, but still complex at the same time. Limited... how? Sure, there are only a few favored lineups for strats eg. Pushing, ganking, defensive, turtle etc. But that doesn't dictate the gameplay which follows. Just because team A goes for a lineup that suits turtling - doesn't mean they will turtle the entire game. Each 'strat' can be played multiple ways. You talk about map like it's the make or break of a game. But that's like saying once you know what all the units do in SC2, then you don't ever have to learn anything about those units again, ever. That's stupid because things change always. You learn things daily. New things are discovered that are shown and not shown. Also just because you saw a NA Na'Vi and they got stomped with it - doesn't mean it's any less effective. They just got out played and in turn, played it wrong. The casters clearly said, NA is not a hero that scales well in a tri-lane. It's true, if you play NA you need that level 6 asap, with a bit of farm for those insane ganks. However, NA was so underfarmed and under leveled that it couldn't do shit, especially considering it was pretty much a hard support. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
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Burns
United States2300 Posts
On September 04 2012 09:59 Al Bundy wrote: The thing is, from my personal experience, the Dota / LoL commentators don't explain anything. You hear them talking about a ton of stuff that no one can understand except people who actually play the game. That makes the whole spectating experience very frustrating. Everytime I try to watch a dota game, I'm like "what is the purpose of this item? What is this spell?". At the end of the day, I wish the commentators were aware of the casual spectators. Isnt that with every sport. Which is why you typically see the Color Commentator and the analyst, to kind of get the hi level stuff, the low level stuff and excitement. The best example of this would be in UFC, where they have one guy talking about the moves, what should happen who will do what, and stats etc. Then another guy who makes it exciting, obviously they arnt set in stone roles, they take each other places here and there, but you get the point. I also disagree the casters that I have listen to, which is a lot, do a great job of explaining the game, I esp love the tobi, syndarin(however the fuck you spell it) combo. They have to be one of the best casting combos in all of esports. | ||
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galtdunn
United States977 Posts
SC2 commentators are similar to DotA 2 commentators in that 1. They both know the names/abilities of all units/buildings/spells (SC2) and heroes/items/spells (DotA 2). This is a given for any commentator in either game. 2. There is a general understanding of strategies and builds (SC2) and hero roles and item builds (DotA 2). 3. Highly analytic casters such as Artosis/D'Apollo and Synderen have the knowledge and experience (all play at high level) to understand what though processes are happening, how players will react, recognizing strategies before normal people realize whats happening. (I equate Tobi to Tasteless somewhat, both know a ton and can make the occasional analytical call if need be, but specialize by choice in shoutcasting). SC2 commentators are different to DotA 2 commentators in that 1. Casters in SC2 have only to focus on 2 players, and a maximum of 2 races in the game. Dota 2 casters must cover 10 players, all playing 10 individual heroes. Obviously, SC2 commentators can be more in-depth about each race and player than Dota 2 casters can be about each player and hero. 2. SC2 casters must have a working knowledge of anywhere from 6-15 maps at any given time, and as such tend to categorize maps as simply "big" or "open". There's no way to gain a high in depth knowledge of some maps without playing 100+ games on it, and most maps aren't even in the ladder pool. Dota 2 casters have only 1 map to focus on, and therefore know it in and out. In addition, so does every player (we assume). Therefore talking about the map is pretty much pointless every game, it never changes. Also, because there are so many heroes and dynamics, it can constantly be used in new, innovative ways. In conclusion, DotA commentators need to focus more on the wide array of heroes, item builds, and 5 player oriented aspects of the game, while SC2 commentators focus more on the matchup, map, and strategy. | ||
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