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The New Terran Initiative

Blogs > spbelky
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spbelky
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States623 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-04 16:47:40
August 31 2012 16:53 GMT
#1
Preface
In a recent thread about Korean Terrans, the argument was made that the disparity between Foreigner Terrans and Korean Terrans is so large, Korean Terrans could be considered a 4th race in SC2. If you follow the professional scene, it's quite clear that the difference between a KR and Foreign Terran is quite large, especially in comparison to KR Protoss/Zerg and their Foreign counterparts. While this may be true, unfortunately most of the discussion in the thread revolved around the reasons Koreans are better than Foreigners in general, and not so much about why the Terran skill gap is significantly larger than the other two races. What is it about Terran that makes it so difficult to master?

Well if you're hoping I have the answers... Sorry but I don't. And even if I had an eloquent and accurate explanation for this phenomenon, that doesn't mean I'd have a solution to close the gap.

However, there was one post in the thread that stood out to me. Although what _Search_ states may seem obvious to some, I think it's worth a closer look.

+ Show Spoiler +
On August 28 2012 04:23 _Search_ wrote:
I'm master league in KR and NA and I find the Korean Terrans do a number of things that make them much scarier:

- They don't always fast expand directly at their natural. When I scout with my overlord and don't see an expansion down I start going into anxiety mode, dropping spines and delaying tech. Then the fully completed OC drops into the natural, losing only a few seconds compared to if the Terran had built it right at the natural. And the other half the time they're actually doing a risky one-base rush.

- They know what sucks about Zerg and abuse the hell out of it. Zerg can't shoot up, so TvZ early game is all about using medivacs and banshees to mess up the Zerg economy. Zerg needs to see to survive, so preventing creep spread and sniping overlords kills Zerg's chances of survival. Zerg has no ranged units, so Shakuras Plateau and Antiga Shipyard are basically auto-wins for any Terran willing to exploit the cliffs. Zerg falls hard to unexpected tech, so showing up at Zerg's natural with 16 hellions (after preventing any sort of Zerg scouting) is an instant win for a zerg with bad sim city and no roaches. Zerg can't kill units being healed by medivacs, and they definitely can't kill marines in mineral lines, so the game for a lot of Koreans is to just get to those sweet spots where marines are invulnerable.

- Korean Terrans play very risky with their medivac drops. They lose them constantly but keep doing them because they know it just takes one good drop to end the game. Once those marines are sandwiched in the minerals they can't be killed. They also do multi-pronged drops while clearing creep with their main army.

- They never. leave. games. Shoot me now.

- As one mega bio/tank push is being swarmed the second is on the way. Day9 said Terrans generally wait 2 minutes between marine tank pushes. Not Korean Terrans. I have lost games because I literally did not have 20 seconds to morph banelings during 3 solid minutes of a constant stream of units. Ahead, behind, Korean do NOT care. They will keep attacking until someone dies.

- Koreans tend to trade a bigger economy for constant aggression. They tend to take their third very late and their fourth even later, if ever.

All in all the best way to describe the difference between Koreans and foreigners is by describing each's idea of a perfect game. To a foreign Terran the perfect game is getting away with taking a ridiculously greedy third. To a Korean Terran it's winning in the first 6 minutes. Zergs aren't scared of greedy Terrans, but they're terrified of risky rushes.


The Situation

Instead of focusing on the disparity between professional KR/NA/EU Terrans, I'd like to focus on the KR/NA/EU Ladders, because this is where the majority of us play our games. I firmly believe that the current struggles of Terrans on the ladder is a result of our own doing. As a community we try and emphasize and reward strong macro play, while discouraging and criticizing anything else (1/2 base aggression, all-ins, risky builds, and of course, cheese). Simply put, this mindset and resulting metagame strongly favors Protoss and Zerg players, because it promotes predictable, safe (or greedy) macro games that achieve the late-game as quickly as possible.

The Proposal

Make those Zerg and Protoss players earn the late game. From now on, I'd like to see the community embrace non-standard non-macro styles, and I'd like to see as many NA/EU Terrans cheese and 2base all-in or simply be more aggressive. Too many times have I seen TvPs and TvZs where the Z or P is just abhorantly greedy with their build, but the Terran can do nothing to punish it because he himself is trying to play for a macro game. In those cases, had the Terran cheesed, all-in'd, been super aggressive off 1 or 2 base, or anything other than macro, he could have taken a quick win.

Protosses and Zergs (and some Terrans) have become to comfortable in the current meta-game, blindly opening with super greedy builds, assuming their Terran opponent is very unlikely to cheese or 2base all-in. This mindset and meta-game allows them to get away with greedy builds they should not be able to get away with, putting them at the advantage in an already imbalanced* late-game. This needs to stop, and we can make it stop if we simply take away that comfort zone by refusing to play their greedy macro games every game (can still mix it in once in a while. Macro games are not bad, but if they become the expected norm EVERY GAME, this is not OK for Terran players). My overall goal is to shift the "norm" to, "If you want to get to the late-game, you should play safe, not greedy."

TvZ Analysis

TvP is not as blatant as TvZ, so I will focus more on TvZ.
Terran build orders and openings are not very flexible, and their overall ability to deviate from a predetermined plan is severely limited. This is due to the nature of our production facilities and tech path. Terrans simply can not make tech switches or ramp up production as quickly as a Zerg. This is not imbalanced, it is just the nature of the races. With that said, if a Terran scouts a Zerg being overly greedy, unless he has already commited to the proper response (somehow before scouting, lol?), his options to punish the greed are quite limited (if there is any option at all). However, if a Zerg scouts an overly greedy Terran, it's quite easy to cut drone production and start pumping out units to expose the weakness in the Terran's play. Again, this is not imbalanced, it is just the nature of the races...

This inability to adjust and adapt in a time efficient and meaningful manner to what we scout in the TvZ matchup means that we need to prepare for the greedy before hand. This doesn't mean we need to cheese or scv pull every game, but it does mean we should be more aggressive. Instead of trying to outgreed the Zerg, just go kill him. I realize that if you tried this with standard builds it would not work (this is why the Zerg do it, they know they are safe even if we try to get aggressive). This is why we need to be playing pre-ordained aggressive builds, which I will update in this thread later today when I get home.

Aggressive TvZ Builds to choose from
Going to try and list these roughly in order of how quickly they hit.
11/11 proxy rax with SCV pull and bunker (all-in)
12/14 rax with bunker pressure (can follow up in a variety of ways)
3rax link(low ground wall-off optional)
Gas first reactor hellion (can either go up to starport for banshee or 2nd factory for all hellions)
4rax off 1 base (basically a 1rax expand except instead of making a CC you cut an SCV and marine, and drop 3 additional barracks at once).
Marauder/Hellion without stim link
1rax expo into 6rax (after natural OC finishes, cut marine/scv production to drop 5 additional rax, then resume scv/marines)
CC first into 8rax (might want a bunker, but as with the previous build, cut scv/marine production in order to power up on barracks)
*Need to find the stim version of marauder/hellion
4x Thor link
2base 2port banshee link

Aggressive TvP Builds to choose from
11/11 proxy rax with SCV pull and bunker (all-in)
3rax link(low ground wall-off optional)
2rax (1tech 1reactor concussive push - all in if nexus first gogo)
Proxy Thor push (find a good spot to hide an armory and factory and go for it)
SOOOOOOOO many 1-1-1 builds to choose from...
-hellion drop into 2port banshee (can fake hellion drop and run marine/hellion into natural, or drop marines and run hellions into natural)
-marine tank banshee with raven for PDD
-marine tank banshee with cloak and late siege
-later marine tank banshee with 2nd and 3rd barracks
There is an old build, 4rax stim/ghost (2) push that I need to dig up...
Coming soon

Reddit Responses
NoseKnowsAll
+ Show Spoiler +
If you go into a PvT (as protoss), scout no gas, and assume he's 1rax FEing and going for a macro game, then you can cut corners a little bit in order to get a ridiculous upgrade advantage or super fast third.

This straight up loses to some SCV trains. If toss faces an SCV train, maybe he holds, maybe he doesn't... but he sure as hell is going to play more cautiously the next time he sees no gas in order to avoid losing "stupid" games.

This is how Korean Terrans get advantages in bo5s. This is how Korean Terrans mind game opponents. When you play MVP, you're not playing a macro beast - you're playing someone who has no qualms at all of allining 2 of these games just to make sure that when he decides to macro - you're not playing stupidly greedy and getting away with it.

Terran as a race can make ladder just like this bo5. If 2/5 Terrans you play go allin, then you'll be cautious and not as greedy when you're playing the other 3. This gives an advantage to Terran as a race in all 5 games. This is how we make the ladder easier. I, for one, am going to be throwing in allins of some sort more often in my play. I might not win those games, but it will definitely help out the other Terrans out there who play my same opponent later on. Go get 'em guys.


*****
Cycle
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States300 Posts
August 31 2012 17:47 GMT
#2
I fully agree. I'm completely behind doing hyper-aggressive builds that sacrifice economy to apply more pressure. If you choose to only play "macro and safe" you can be taken advantage of. Player should not be afraid to cheese once in a while. I feel like for too long people have been afraid to cheese because they don't want people to call them bad for doing it. But fuck those people.

The more unorthodox and aggressive players play on the ladder, the more their opponents will have to stay on their toes, not play so greedy, and maybe even actually scout every once in a while.

Btw, aggressive TvZ builds I love doing are:
- 2 rax (proxy and not proxy)
- reaper FE (harder to do with the queen buff but you can still abuse some maps)
- 1 rax FE into proxy cloak banshee
- LastShadow's proxy 9 rax reaper bunker rush

and aggressive TvP builds:
- concussive FE into 5-6 rax push
- concussive FE into 2 react fact hellions into cloak banshee
- 1/1/1
- 1 rax gasless FE into 7 rax marine push
- 2 rax
- cloak banshee

I know a lot of those are FE builds but imo aggressive doesn't mean 1 base play. 2 base econ can support some really sweet pushes/timings/aggression.
| chKCycle.551 | NA | Master League Random | Checkmate Gaming |
spbelky
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States623 Posts
August 31 2012 18:08 GMT
#3
On September 01 2012 02:47 Cycle wrote:
I fully agree. I'm completely behind doing hyper-aggressive builds that sacrifice economy to apply more pressure. If you choose to only play "macro and safe" you can be taken advantage of. Player should not be afraid to cheese once in a while. I feel like for too long people have been afraid to cheese because they don't want people to call them bad for doing it. But fuck those people.

The more unorthodox and aggressive players play on the ladder, the more their opponents will have to stay on their toes, not play so greedy, and maybe even actually scout every once in a while.

Btw, aggressive TvZ builds I love doing are:
- 2 rax (proxy and not proxy)
- reaper FE (harder to do with the queen buff but you can still abuse some maps)
- 1 rax FE into proxy cloak banshee
- LastShadow's proxy 9 rax reaper bunker rush

and aggressive TvP builds:
- concussive FE into 5-6 rax push
- concussive FE into 2 react fact hellions into cloak banshee
- 1/1/1
- 1 rax gasless FE into 7 rax marine push
- 2 rax
- cloak banshee

I know a lot of those are FE builds but imo aggressive doesn't mean 1 base play. 2 base econ can support some really sweet pushes/timings/aggression.


Yea, I'm not saying everyone should start 3rax'ing and proxy cheesing, 2base econ aggression (similar to 2base imortal from protoss) is great.

I'll look up the build orders when I get home, but some of the TvZ builds I'm looking at are
2base hellion/thor/banshee all in
2base marauder/hellion all in
2base fast stim drop (vulnerable to baneling bust)

proxy 2rax
3rax scv all in
1rax fe into 6rax all in
CC first into 8rax all in (my fav)

The 6 and 8 rax builds absolutely murder greedy zergs that rely on pure queen and a few lings.
IMBADYEP
Profile Joined December 2010
United States16 Posts
August 31 2012 20:23 GMT
#4
I'm definitely looking forward to some replays.

But, do you believe these types of builds are going to be viable for anyone below diamond? I'm mid-masters and I still see players fuck up their banshee control and misplace their drops all the time. It seems if you mess up that early in the game against zerg, they know to drone up and you'll end up very far behind.
Sennin
Profile Joined July 2011
Belgium50 Posts
August 31 2012 20:30 GMT
#5
On September 01 2012 05:23 IMBADYEP wrote:
I'm definitely looking forward to some replays.

But, do you believe these types of builds are going to be viable for anyone below diamond? I'm mid-masters and I still see players fuck up their banshee control and misplace their drops all the time. It seems if you mess up that early in the game against zerg, they know to drone up and you'll end up very far behind.


Isn't that the point of doing a lot of these builds? To learn these things?

And all-in types of play mostly give shorter games so you get to practice your control/build more frequently.
stevarius
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1394 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-02 21:50:35
September 02 2012 21:49 GMT
#6
This initiative is a great idea. I've been growing more successful in both TvP and TvZ by being more aggressive. I've had even lower level players try to blindly expand to their third thinking I'm going to be economical as well. The current metagame suggests too heavily that your opponent is doing a fast expansion and is promoting greed that even Wall Street envies. It's time to start ramping the aggression and taking some risk of our own to trust in aggressive builds not commonly used. There are not going to be any balance changes soon to alleviate any problems we may or may not be facing so it is on the Terran players to change the game.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
9-BiT
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United States1089 Posts
September 02 2012 22:36 GMT
#7
Have been doing this for a while, I really need to learn how to 2 rax into Econ. Is there any guides or vids that outline the basic proxy 2 rax tvz? Thanks and glhf
kwark_uk: @father_sc learn to play maybe?
Deleted User 255289
Profile Joined March 2012
281 Posts
September 03 2012 05:19 GMT
#8
Come on, when are u gonna add the Aggresive Builds to Choose From?
Zerg OP | CreansRNub | k-Poop | Zerg OP | Sea lions | \\m//
Chaggi
Profile Joined August 2010
Korea (South)1936 Posts
September 03 2012 06:21 GMT
#9
I've had a lot of success with double factory blue flame, as long as you deny scouting from the zerg, works pretty well
Zombo Joe
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada850 Posts
September 03 2012 08:53 GMT
#10
Doesn't that get completely shut down by a zerg who opens with queens (99% of zergs) and just builds in 1 spine crawler?
I am Terranfying.
meteorskunk
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada546 Posts
September 03 2012 13:01 GMT
#11
On September 03 2012 14:19 superbarnie wrote:
Come on, when are u gonna add the Aggresive Builds to Choose From?


Having build orders listed here kind of goes against the spirit of the new terran initiative. We are not trying to be economical and strong as much as we are trying to be relentlessly aggressive and unpredictable. this means denying scout information and hoping they assume we are playing econ and then showing up with marine helion scv. In other words, this play style is not a build, it is a spirit. The trickiness needed to play this style is bred not from playing in styles known to be optimal because if you play the optimal econ style then an opponent can predict timings better.
Girl Blog Credentials: Comfortable talking to some women. Tried the sex once
CapnAmerica
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States508 Posts
September 03 2012 20:26 GMT
#12
On September 03 2012 22:01 meteorskunk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 03 2012 14:19 superbarnie wrote:
Come on, when are u gonna add the Aggresive Builds to Choose From?


Having build orders listed here kind of goes against the spirit of the new terran initiative. We are not trying to be economical and strong as much as we are trying to be relentlessly aggressive and unpredictable. this means denying scout information and hoping they assume we are playing econ and then showing up with marine helion scv. In other words, this play style is not a build, it is a spirit. The trickiness needed to play this style is bred not from playing in styles known to be optimal because if you play the optimal econ style then an opponent can predict timings better.


You're also kinda missing the point to his question -- he wants to know WHAT can possibly work as a viable unit composition to win. And how to get there.


Like, if I open with a barracks/depot walloff at the bottom of my ramp I can either go 3 rax all-in or 1 rax FE or basically anything. If I pretend that ladder maps are tournament maps, then I can open with 12 rax 13 gas and do all manner of different things with addons, etc.

If I 1 Rax FE I can go into banshees, hellion drops, pure marine timings... the possibilities are endless.
After all this time, I still haven't figured out the correlation between sexual orientation and beating an unprepared opponent. Are homosexuals the next koreans? Many players seem to think it's an unfair advantage. - pandaburn
Marathi
Profile Joined July 2011
298 Posts
September 03 2012 21:23 GMT
#13
For me the key in korean TvZ is how hard the Terran will work to deny scouting, shifting marines all over the place to stop those initial drone and ling pokes and the overlords and forcing the Zerg to play blind.

Also the use of little tricks like positioning marines at expo ramp instead of main, makes players assume you have an expansion up when you could be 1base all-inning.

Another problem I think that EU and NA terrans have is because we can get good scouting information as Terran, we become reactive players. Oh he's building x, y and z, I'll make a, b and c to deal with that. But then you are already behind, you are playing their game. This is where the aggression of the koreans differs, they focus a lot more on getting their build perfect so they can hit these timing windows which otherwise are missed opportunities.

How often do you see korean terrans send supply SCV to scout? Not that often... it's because they don't want to play reactive, that extra x minerals per minute off that one SCV helps them to hit their window for an early win.
eSports tees designed by me - http://tinyurl.com/bqmexd9
NewbieOne
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Poland560 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-04 01:25:32
September 04 2012 01:24 GMT
#14
Heh, curiously, I tend to view TvZ closer to the way Searched described Korean ladder Terrans to do, and TvZ was by far my best matchup when I still played, barring occasional slumps or missteps. Suffice to say, I was always happy to see I'd be playing against Zerg. In fact, when it was a Toss or fellow Terran, I was disappointed that it wasn't a Zerg. Somehow, experimentation and weird things tend to work for me only in TvZ, though, not any other matchup. I used to have some success with Olorin's marine/raven/hellion/thor one-base push in TvP (wasn't bad vs Zerg, either) but it had many vulnerabilities that I couldn't patch up with my gold level mechanics and sense, and sometimes I'd die an econ death but not infrequently a cheese death. In TvT, I used Thorzain's Day9 #394 build, and it supposedly works against Toss as well but I haven't tried.

What I worry about, though, is that spending time looking for cookie cutters or outright cheesing could result in slower overall skill improvement unless one has enough knowledge to tell a bad build from a build that has potential but needs fine-tuning/better execution. Sometimes I'd feel like experimenting, run a different custom build every game, end up losing because of the build being bad or badly executed (like 10 different builds, 10 lost games).
Saiton
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Sweden467 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-04 11:47:16
September 04 2012 11:43 GMT
#15
This is something i noticed as well during the last few days. I usually tend to open hellions(constant production till 2 banshees are done) with 2 cloak banshee and then switch starport+factory and add on 3 barracks. Playing aggressively with focus on hampering creepspread sets my first push up pretty nicely.

I sit on 1 reactor starport, 1 tech lab factory and 4 barracks and ultimately moving out when stim/combat shield is ready and put down my third as i'm moving out. Upgrades may vary.
This gives me the option to push but also to fall back in case something should go awry and it's sort of a more safe way to play.

Instead i started delaying the third and opted for 1 starport, 1 factory and 6-8 reactor barracks on two satisfied bases and really pumped out aggression like never before. My winrate spiked during the last few days and i'm not just winning just about every TvZ now. I'm winning convincingly. The matchup has become really fun to play and i look forward to the metagame shifting in this favor as Zerg keeps greeding on like never before.
Top diamond terran streaming at http://www.twitch.tv/saitontv
spbelky
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States623 Posts
September 04 2012 16:49 GMT
#16
I updated with a few builds. Sorry it took so long, I was busier this weekend than I anticipated. Eventually I'd like a bigger list with links to guides for every build.
ultimania92
Profile Joined September 2011
United States30 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-24 02:27:04
September 24 2012 02:26 GMT
#17
On September 03 2012 17:53 Zombo Joe wrote:
Doesn't that get completely shut down by a zerg who opens with queens (99% of zergs) and just builds in 1 spine crawler?


Have you seen some of the zergs on ladder, especially in Diamond NA and even in low masters? Most of them expect a few hellions with possibly banshee accompaniment. They don't expect a horde of 10 BF Hellions to just rush past them and annihilate their drone count (10-16 BF Hellions will annhilate a mineral line if they don't pull almost immediately). Zerg players are too complacent, and they think that they can safely drone behind a large queen count and spines, which is never enough if you just put that kind of aggression on.

If you're referring to 12/14 bunker rushes, then that's easy:
.

Spine Crawlers don't do much against a terran if they dance their marines in and out of the bunker.
"SSSSsshame if something happened..."
pseudocalm
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada98 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-24 05:07:00
September 24 2012 04:38 GMT
#18
As a protoss I would just like to say preemptively to anyone who decides to go hellion drop into 2 port banshee vs me.....

dienowkthxbai


but seriously I agree with the OP. While I dont think 2rax or 3rax are that great in pretty much any situation other then vs nexus first, early terran tech aggression is almost always worth it in my mind. Hellions and banshee's are what I fear most in a pvt.
I'd put my sensor tower in her minimap
ultimania92
Profile Joined September 2011
United States30 Posts
September 24 2012 22:55 GMT
#19
One early hellion can do so much damage if you're doing a 1-1-1 style build into biomech deathball (not even the all-in, but you could do it there too). If you're on point, you can easily manage to bulldog a hellion past the stalker poke and into the main. I have had games where, in diamond of all places, it causes protoss players to go full wtf mode and lose outright because they tried to micro away from the hellion, bunched up, and lost 10 or more to a 100 mineral unit.
"SSSSsshame if something happened..."
Clorox
Profile Joined September 2012
United States2 Posts
September 25 2012 05:36 GMT
#20
Man after reading this post I tried doing some good old 2 rax in TvZ. Can't believe how many Zergs forgot how to hold a 2 rax, and then they bm me about Terran being OP. It's like everyone thinks they deserve to expo as many times before they get attacked. I will be doing very aggressive builds from now on!
Why so serious?
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