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On August 18 2012 15:36 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't doubt that the Tempest is an awesome unit, nor do I doubt that it can be useful. However, the reason you are willing to give it a chance is the same as the reason I find it questionable-- the ability to siege up and force someone to come out and play is something Terran does, not something Protoss or Zerg does, and I feel that sharing this ability across all three races is part of the vanillification that's taking place in HotS. We see the same thing and draw different conclusions, it seems.
Yeah that makes sense. I do like your points and ideally we have a Protoss unit that can force engagements but fit with the current Protoss paradigm, but I guess what I was trying to say was I would value the former over the latter if we can't have our cake and eat it too.
Though to be fair, the carrier already is a protoss siege unit that's been in the game since vanilla SC1. We just rarely see it in play in SC2. 
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First off, I appreciate the time you put into writing this thing.
I also see the enthusiasm... albait, the over-enthusiasm.
But, in the name of most Terran players, fuck you.
Who do you think you are, saying that units are not "Terrany" just because they don't feel so to you? Do you even know why those units were designed as they are?
I'll give you a hint - it has something to do with the vast majority of people who actually play Terran wanting this change. You actually spoke of "An army moves into tank range, goes oh no we gotta either engage or run". Well, you might have missed something, but that wasn't the case for years, ever since the Tank damage became 45 from 70. Lets face it, Blizzard has ruined Mech in WoL, especially in TvP. And now, with the new expansion, they're fixing what they ruined. And I'm sure every mech player in the game today is glad this is happening. Even if they don't like some of the new units, they all realize the changes are gonna make Mech viable again. They feel it's a good thing.
So why would your feelings, that a race should have weaker and harder to control units, have priority over people who actually play that race and feel the exact oposite? They don't. And that's why the expansion brings the units it does, and if you don't like it, feel welcome to stay behind - it's always you're choice.
User was warned for this post
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"but I let it have that"
wow, how generous and incredibly entitled of you!
In all seriousness though, I feel where you're coming from.. IMHO the terran changes, sans spider mines, look lame uncreative/lame and the tempest range is stupid, while the zerg additions look incredible.
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Italy12247 Posts
" and it really just gets down to one of the cores of Protoss which is inducing true rage in your opponent."
And that is why i fucking love my race. That and storm.
On topic: i feel like the Broodlord isn't actually very zerg like, because of the effect it produces on the whole race. I agree the unit itself is zergy, but then Zergs kinda only win games with this slow ass invincible flying deathball that only attacks once and it's do or die; to me that's not zerglike at all. So yeah fuck broodlords.
Regarding Hots, i feel like they don't really know what to do with a lot of units. The warhound was supposed to be a replacement for the Thor which is clunky in and of itself, then it turned into a marauder without stim made out of a factory, so right now it's looking really mleh. Same goes for the Tempest, it was supposed to own muta flocks (which is a hilarious idea in and of itself), then they were like oh wait we don't need that, let's just...uhm...give toss a flying siege unit. Well in that case, might as well get some more work done on the carrier no?
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On August 18 2012 19:19 MaxSteel wrote:
First off, I appreciate the time you put into writing this thing.
I also see the enthusiasm... albait, the over-enthusiasm.
But, in the name of most Terran players, fuck you.
Who do you think you are, saying that units are not "Terrany" just because they don't feel so to you? Do you even know why those units were designed as they are?
I'll give you a hint - it has something to do with the vast majority of people who actually play Terran wanting this change. You actually spoke of "An army moves into tank range, goes oh no we gotta either engage or run". Well, you might have missed something, but that wasn't the case for years, ever since the Tank damage became 45 from 70. Lets face it, Blizzard has ruined Mech in WoL, especially in TvP. And now, with the new expansion, they're fixing what they ruined. And I'm sure every mech player in the game today is glad this is happening. Even if they don't like some of the new units, they all realize the changes are gonna make Mech viable again. They feel it's a good thing.
So why would your feelings, that a race should have weaker and harder to control units, have priority over people who actually play that race and feel the exact oposite? They don't. And that's why the expansion brings the units it does, and if you don't like it, feel welcome to stay behind - it's always you're choice.
User was warned for this post
As a Terran player, why do you think you speak for most Terran players? The OP is a Terran player, I believe. And I, as a Terran player, think that they could make better units, more Terran-like units that still fix mech. It seems like you have a really creatively handicapped vision for what you think good mech must be.
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From Reddit:
Somebody has to say it. Based on everything we have learned about it so far, the Starcraft expansion is just further proof that Blizzard has no idea how to design a game. The new units range from bland "me too" designs, to completely broken units that will ruin the game. Let's look at them race-by-race.
TERRAN:
To understand why the first new Terran unit is a bad idea, you need to understand the way the three races are designed. Until now, Starcraft has been balanced around the three races different ways of recovering damage. Zerg units regenerate. Protoss units regain shields. Terran mech units can be repaired, but bio units can not. Introducing the medic, a new bio unit that can heal marines, firebats and even SCVs not only makes Terran bio simply too powerful, but it removes the important uniqueness of the various races. In essence, it stops Terran being Terran.
The valkyrie is expensive and, given all the answers Terran already has to air units, unlikely to ever be built.
Special mention should also be given to the "Charon Boosters" upgrade for goliaths. By making it easier to a-move goliaths into guardians or carriers, Blizzard is dumbing down the game, and removing the importance of micro, positional play and strategy.
ZERG:
The zerg army is all about manoeuvrability and strength in numbers. So why the hell are they getting a big, dumb, immobile, lame copy of a siege tank? Lurkers are not zerg-like at all and have no place in the game.
Devourers, on the other hand, look promising as they finally give the zerg an answer to carriers and battlecruisers, where previously players would have had to build (and lose) scourge to take care of those threats.
PROTOSS:
Dark Templar were fun in the single-player game, but I can't for the life of me understand why Blizzard think they will work in multi-player. Maybe they were just too lazy to make a new unit, and fell back on one they'd already developed? Zerg has to make Overlords anyway, so they already have detection everywhere, Terran can take out DTs with a single scan, and Protoss has cannons and observers. I don't see DTs being used in any kind of serious game.
Dark Archon. Does Protoss really need another spell-caster? Some of its abilities seem useful (Mind Control could be potentially game-breaking as it allows you to exceed the supply cap (!)), but since nobody is going to be building Dark Templar, putting those abilities on the Dark Archon seems a great way to ensure they are never used.
Corsairs: oh great. Protoss gets another useless air unit to go alongside the Scout. Yawn.
Overall, I am incredibly pessimistic about the release of Brood War. All I can hope is that enough people keep playing the original Starcraft without these worthless additions that we can maintain a viable league for years to come.
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This is a blog, not a thread :<
That being said, you wrote it nicely and brought up points that were somewhat unique compared to what I've been reading from most people who have been posting on HOTS threads so good job :D
I already wrote a blog about P and T units for Hots but I never really thought about protoss in the way you wrote about them. They would be such a fantastic race if the Stalker and the Colossus weren't units that simply got exponentially better the more of them you have. In fact, people wouldn't complain about them being a badly designed race if it weren't for those two units working the way they do in all the MUs. I will be overly critical of P since I am a Protoss player myself.
+ Show Spoiler +
I'm going to take this opportunity to spill all of what I think is wrong with the current game out in one post, because this seems like as good a place as any to do so and I don't think it warrants its own thread.
The Colossus is too important for protoss in all MUs. People say it's because of the AOE dmg. I say NAY! It's because of the range. The colossus is a perfectly reasonable unit when it doesn't have extended thermal lance. Bio still dislikes them, but doesn't abhor them so much that they need to devote entire build orders to getting vikings out in time just to deal with the possibility of them being around. Colossi without the range upgrade operate in a much more fair and dynamic way in the protoss army. I'm not going to explain how, I just want you to imagine fighting colossi without thermal lance and how much more fun it would be. I don't even think you should buff the colossus in a different way to make up for it, just nerf it by getting rid of that specific upgrade and its uses will become way more niche and interesting. PvP might even become a cool MU.
Stalkers get exponentially stronger the more of them you have. I have no problem with the awesome gimmicky plays that involve blinking into your opponents main and stuff like that. Blink is a fantastic ability in theory that adds a lot of depth and planning to each of the MUs. As stated by the OP, it's very protoss as well. The problem makes itself clear in PvZ and to some extent PvP. In PvZ, you can have just blink stalkers for a very long portion of the game after your army has been cleaned up and have it be good enough because of blink stalker micro. Fungal was introduced as the solution to this problem but it is apparent to me that any race mechanic that is broken doesn't feel fixed when the solution is just to give another race a means of dealing with it. For example Vikings and Corruptors were given the range they have to terran and zerg primarily so they could kill colossi. Thats stupid. Creative solutions exist to the problem of blink stalker balls against zerg. Just give them a longer CD between blinks. Or, give them energy that replenishes when they are near a nexus so they can only blink a certain number of times before having to return home to recharge. Actually, I like that solution more. Give them 4 energy so feedback isn't a deal and make it so each blink costs 1 energy. Being a small distance from a nexus recharges their energy. Bam, blink stalkers solved.
If those two things change about protoss, with some minor tweaking to the other races, it becomes a much more fun race to play against. It also skews the balance and makes protoss much worse but that's a given with any radical change to the units. I would argue though that the change isn't even that radical. It's getting rid of 1 upgrade and changing blink slightly.
Terran is a great race. The viking has the obscene range it has because terran needed a way to deal with the colossus. Even though the viking has many other roles as well, it no longer really needs the crazy range it currently has. Air vision is an important aspect of TvT but will TvT really be much worse of a MU if the viking has 7 range instead of 9? It will make air dominance less important in wars between tank lines and Thors may have a bigger role clearing the skys. It will also introduce more room for banshee play in the mid-late game. Colossus sniping will be a much smaller aspect of PvT which leaves vikings the important role of dealing with Broodlord/ infestor. This is important, but I will soon be arguging for the changing of the infestor and corruptor as well (the only two things I see really wrong with zerg). Vikings are important in TvZ as a means of clearing out ovies in the early game (unaffected by range nerf) and killing broodlords in the lategame. Broodlords are traditionally protected by corruptors and infestors. I will talk about how I would change these soon. Apart from this, Vikings don't need to do much in TvZ. TvP is taken care of, and TvT's dynamics will change a little bit.
Terran is otherwise a great race in WoL so I wouldn't change anything else about them on a fundamental level.
Zerg's problem units are infestors and corruptors. I know some people have problems with the Roach. Listen, the Roach makes ZvZ a stable MU, gives interesting options in ZvT, and is the only cost-effective midgame unit in ZvP. It's necessary. I can't think of a way to remove or alter the roach in a fundamental way that would help the game.
Infestors are too strong. They need to be that way in the current WoL build because zerg lacks a certain racial depth that this caster can make up for in every way. Fungal stops units in their tracks and does decent damage. With blink and vikings getting nerfed, this spell can't be as strong as it currently is. Terran doesn't have a way of killing a well established BL infestor position and with nerfed vikings they have even less of a way. Fungal shouldn't do dmg or it shouldn't trap units. One affect or the other. I say it shouldn't deal damage since zerg has plenty of means of dealing damage to units that are stuck in one place. So, lets say it doesn't deal damage, now in order to protect your BL, you need to rely on purely corruptors, queens, and infested terrans. Idk, this actually seems like a more fair and more fun situation to me than what we had before. Much of terran complaints about zerg revolve not around the BL, but the infestor. Having weaker infestors make the midgame a lot harder for the zerg, and makes their late game vulnerable but there is an expansion coming out which offers solutions for these problems.
Corruptors just need a decrease in health, armor, or damage. Nothing game-breaking since their only use is to kill colossi, vikings, and occasionally battlecruisers or phoenixes.
So, to sum up: Get rid of colossus range upgrade, make blink a resource that you need to recharge at base, lower viking range, get rid of damage on fungal, nerf corruptors slightly. Buff the rest of units as needed to achieve decent balance.
Okay, now I'll talk about what HOTS offers us
Zerg first
The viper is another attempt to deal with the colossus without actually dealing with what makes the unit broken. Its range. We wouldn't need abduct if blizzard just lowered the colossus range.. Still, it would be cool to have but we wouldn't NEED it? See what I'm saying? It a cool idea for busting up tank lines and the like as well. I actually like the ability I just hope they find a way to make it something that doesn't force the T out of tanks in the lategame. I'm not afraid of it breaking ZvP because the Tempest's range could theoretically stop this unit from having an impact in the hands of a pro. We'll see tho. The cloud ability could be cool. Idk why the theme of this expansion is Break Siege Lines though. Siege lines are cool :| If this unit is squishy I don't have a problem with it though. As long as it's reasonably easy to prevent it from getting its spells off if you're aware its coming it should be a great addition to the game. Also, it's existence foreshadows nerfs to the infestor (which fills a similar niche) which is a good thing.
The Swarm Host is badass. This isn't to say it's pretty, or it's very zergy. It's cool because it will give the zerg choices to make which zerg doesn't really have atm. Right now, Zerg play is essentially survive until the late game, build the perfect army, win. The Swarm host promises to be a unit with more applications in the midgame than the lategame so it gives zerg the ability to play the race in a different way. I'm excited to see if it ends up doing what I'm speculating which is weed out zerg players who mindlessly survive until they get the right composition.
Hydra speed at the hive stage is fantastic in every way.
Ultra burrow charge seems strong as hell. I'm a little skeptical tbh. But I suppose if BL infestor is getting nerfed (which it seems like is gonna happen.. I hope) then more stopping power at a different tech route is necessary.
Terran has the widow mine. People: It's not gonna work like a mine. The purpose of this unit is to give terran a way to deal with expensive spellcasters without having to produce an expensive spellcaster themselves. It's a good thing but you can't expect it to work like an AOE explosive that will kill armies. That's not an available niche.
Battle hellion. Fine. Will beef up terran mech against P. Will subsequently beef up against Z. They better do some nice things to Zerg's midgame.
Warhound.. It's gonna change. Don't know how just yet. Lots of speculation but I don't honestly know what they're gonna do.
Protoss has the oracle. Good unit. They will change entomb to make it target fewer patches and have it be harder to kill. They kind of have to. Invis is good, vision spell is good. It's a good unit.
Tempest: I hope it will be cool. They will need to find a way to keep it away from deathballs tho. Maybe if they have it degen the shields of units around it at a slow and steady rate. This would definitely discourage using it in the deathball while still allowing it to have it's obscene range. I would really like it if they did that actually.
Mothership core: Good all around. Gives agressive option in the early game at opportunity cost of more chrono. Makes protoss macro harder. Gives more choices and room for build creativity. I love it.
Okay that's everything.. Whew.
TLDR: WoL needs some tweaking, HOTS has cool units mostly
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On August 19 2012 03:34 Bijan wrote:From Reddit:Show nested quote +Somebody has to say it. Based on everything we have learned about it so far, the Starcraft expansion is just further proof that Blizzard has no idea how to design a game. The new units range from bland "me too" designs, to completely broken units that will ruin the game. Let's look at them race-by-race.
TERRAN:
To understand why the first new Terran unit is a bad idea, you need to understand the way the three races are designed. Until now, Starcraft has been balanced around the three races different ways of recovering damage. Zerg units regenerate. Protoss units regain shields. Terran mech units can be repaired, but bio units can not. Introducing the medic, a new bio unit that can heal marines, firebats and even SCVs not only makes Terran bio simply too powerful, but it removes the important uniqueness of the various races. In essence, it stops Terran being Terran.
The valkyrie is expensive and, given all the answers Terran already has to air units, unlikely to ever be built.
Special mention should also be given to the "Charon Boosters" upgrade for goliaths. By making it easier to a-move goliaths into guardians or carriers, Blizzard is dumbing down the game, and removing the importance of micro, positional play and strategy.
ZERG:
The zerg army is all about manoeuvrability and strength in numbers. So why the hell are they getting a big, dumb, immobile, lame copy of a siege tank? Lurkers are not zerg-like at all and have no place in the game.
Devourers, on the other hand, look promising as they finally give the zerg an answer to carriers and battlecruisers, where previously players would have had to build (and lose) scourge to take care of those threats.
PROTOSS:
Dark Templar were fun in the single-player game, but I can't for the life of me understand why Blizzard think they will work in multi-player. Maybe they were just too lazy to make a new unit, and fell back on one they'd already developed? Zerg has to make Overlords anyway, so they already have detection everywhere, Terran can take out DTs with a single scan, and Protoss has cannons and observers. I don't see DTs being used in any kind of serious game.
Dark Archon. Does Protoss really need another spell-caster? Some of its abilities seem useful (Mind Control could be potentially game-breaking as it allows you to exceed the supply cap (!)), but since nobody is going to be building Dark Templar, putting those abilities on the Dark Archon seems a great way to ensure they are never used.
Corsairs: oh great. Protoss gets another useless air unit to go alongside the Scout. Yawn.
Overall, I am incredibly pessimistic about the release of Brood War. All I can hope is that enough people keep playing the original Starcraft without these worthless additions that we can maintain a viable league for years to come.
Lol, you deserve a medal
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On August 19 2012 04:03 VictorJones wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 03:34 Bijan wrote:From Reddit:Somebody has to say it. Based on everything we have learned about it so far, the Starcraft expansion is just further proof that Blizzard has no idea how to design a game. The new units range from bland "me too" designs, to completely broken units that will ruin the game. Let's look at them race-by-race.
TERRAN:
To understand why the first new Terran unit is a bad idea, you need to understand the way the three races are designed. Until now, Starcraft has been balanced around the three races different ways of recovering damage. Zerg units regenerate. Protoss units regain shields. Terran mech units can be repaired, but bio units can not. Introducing the medic, a new bio unit that can heal marines, firebats and even SCVs not only makes Terran bio simply too powerful, but it removes the important uniqueness of the various races. In essence, it stops Terran being Terran.
The valkyrie is expensive and, given all the answers Terran already has to air units, unlikely to ever be built.
Special mention should also be given to the "Charon Boosters" upgrade for goliaths. By making it easier to a-move goliaths into guardians or carriers, Blizzard is dumbing down the game, and removing the importance of micro, positional play and strategy.
ZERG:
The zerg army is all about manoeuvrability and strength in numbers. So why the hell are they getting a big, dumb, immobile, lame copy of a siege tank? Lurkers are not zerg-like at all and have no place in the game.
Devourers, on the other hand, look promising as they finally give the zerg an answer to carriers and battlecruisers, where previously players would have had to build (and lose) scourge to take care of those threats.
PROTOSS:
Dark Templar were fun in the single-player game, but I can't for the life of me understand why Blizzard think they will work in multi-player. Maybe they were just too lazy to make a new unit, and fell back on one they'd already developed? Zerg has to make Overlords anyway, so they already have detection everywhere, Terran can take out DTs with a single scan, and Protoss has cannons and observers. I don't see DTs being used in any kind of serious game.
Dark Archon. Does Protoss really need another spell-caster? Some of its abilities seem useful (Mind Control could be potentially game-breaking as it allows you to exceed the supply cap (!)), but since nobody is going to be building Dark Templar, putting those abilities on the Dark Archon seems a great way to ensure they are never used.
Corsairs: oh great. Protoss gets another useless air unit to go alongside the Scout. Yawn.
Overall, I am incredibly pessimistic about the release of Brood War. All I can hope is that enough people keep playing the original Starcraft without these worthless additions that we can maintain a viable league for years to come. Lol, you deserve a medal
Whoever posted that on Reddit is a bloody idiot. It makes little critical sense and is a bunch of anecdotal ranting.
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On August 19 2012 04:47 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 04:03 VictorJones wrote:On August 19 2012 03:34 Bijan wrote:From Reddit:Somebody has to say it. Based on everything we have learned about it so far, the Starcraft expansion is just further proof that Blizzard has no idea how to design a game. The new units range from bland "me too" designs, to completely broken units that will ruin the game. Let's look at them race-by-race.
TERRAN:
To understand why the first new Terran unit is a bad idea, you need to understand the way the three races are designed. Until now, Starcraft has been balanced around the three races different ways of recovering damage. Zerg units regenerate. Protoss units regain shields. Terran mech units can be repaired, but bio units can not. Introducing the medic, a new bio unit that can heal marines, firebats and even SCVs not only makes Terran bio simply too powerful, but it removes the important uniqueness of the various races. In essence, it stops Terran being Terran.
The valkyrie is expensive and, given all the answers Terran already has to air units, unlikely to ever be built.
Special mention should also be given to the "Charon Boosters" upgrade for goliaths. By making it easier to a-move goliaths into guardians or carriers, Blizzard is dumbing down the game, and removing the importance of micro, positional play and strategy.
ZERG:
The zerg army is all about manoeuvrability and strength in numbers. So why the hell are they getting a big, dumb, immobile, lame copy of a siege tank? Lurkers are not zerg-like at all and have no place in the game.
Devourers, on the other hand, look promising as they finally give the zerg an answer to carriers and battlecruisers, where previously players would have had to build (and lose) scourge to take care of those threats.
PROTOSS:
Dark Templar were fun in the single-player game, but I can't for the life of me understand why Blizzard think they will work in multi-player. Maybe they were just too lazy to make a new unit, and fell back on one they'd already developed? Zerg has to make Overlords anyway, so they already have detection everywhere, Terran can take out DTs with a single scan, and Protoss has cannons and observers. I don't see DTs being used in any kind of serious game.
Dark Archon. Does Protoss really need another spell-caster? Some of its abilities seem useful (Mind Control could be potentially game-breaking as it allows you to exceed the supply cap (!)), but since nobody is going to be building Dark Templar, putting those abilities on the Dark Archon seems a great way to ensure they are never used.
Corsairs: oh great. Protoss gets another useless air unit to go alongside the Scout. Yawn.
Overall, I am incredibly pessimistic about the release of Brood War. All I can hope is that enough people keep playing the original Starcraft without these worthless additions that we can maintain a viable league for years to come. Lol, you deserve a medal Whoever posted that on Reddit is a bloody idiot. It makes little critical sense and is a bunch of anecdotal ranting.
... Exactly.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
On August 19 2012 04:47 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 04:03 VictorJones wrote:On August 19 2012 03:34 Bijan wrote:From Reddit:Somebody has to say it. Based on everything we have learned about it so far, the Starcraft expansion is just further proof that Blizzard has no idea how to design a game. The new units range from bland "me too" designs, to completely broken units that will ruin the game. Let's look at them race-by-race.
TERRAN:
To understand why the first new Terran unit is a bad idea, you need to understand the way the three races are designed. Until now, Starcraft has been balanced around the three races different ways of recovering damage. Zerg units regenerate. Protoss units regain shields. Terran mech units can be repaired, but bio units can not. Introducing the medic, a new bio unit that can heal marines, firebats and even SCVs not only makes Terran bio simply too powerful, but it removes the important uniqueness of the various races. In essence, it stops Terran being Terran.
The valkyrie is expensive and, given all the answers Terran already has to air units, unlikely to ever be built.
Special mention should also be given to the "Charon Boosters" upgrade for goliaths. By making it easier to a-move goliaths into guardians or carriers, Blizzard is dumbing down the game, and removing the importance of micro, positional play and strategy.
ZERG:
The zerg army is all about manoeuvrability and strength in numbers. So why the hell are they getting a big, dumb, immobile, lame copy of a siege tank? Lurkers are not zerg-like at all and have no place in the game.
Devourers, on the other hand, look promising as they finally give the zerg an answer to carriers and battlecruisers, where previously players would have had to build (and lose) scourge to take care of those threats.
PROTOSS:
Dark Templar were fun in the single-player game, but I can't for the life of me understand why Blizzard think they will work in multi-player. Maybe they were just too lazy to make a new unit, and fell back on one they'd already developed? Zerg has to make Overlords anyway, so they already have detection everywhere, Terran can take out DTs with a single scan, and Protoss has cannons and observers. I don't see DTs being used in any kind of serious game.
Dark Archon. Does Protoss really need another spell-caster? Some of its abilities seem useful (Mind Control could be potentially game-breaking as it allows you to exceed the supply cap (!)), but since nobody is going to be building Dark Templar, putting those abilities on the Dark Archon seems a great way to ensure they are never used.
Corsairs: oh great. Protoss gets another useless air unit to go alongside the Scout. Yawn.
Overall, I am incredibly pessimistic about the release of Brood War. All I can hope is that enough people keep playing the original Starcraft without these worthless additions that we can maintain a viable league for years to come. Lol, you deserve a medal Whoever posted that on Reddit is a bloody idiot. It makes little critical sense and is a bunch of anecdotal ranting.
Its not supposed to make critical sense. Of course in retrospect BW was an absolutely fantastic expansion, but thats not the point of the post.
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Blazinghand
United States25562 Posts
On August 19 2012 04:47 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 04:03 VictorJones wrote:On August 19 2012 03:34 Bijan wrote:From Reddit:Somebody has to say it. Based on everything we have learned about it so far, the Starcraft expansion is just further proof that Blizzard has no idea how to design a game. The new units range from bland "me too" designs, to completely broken units that will ruin the game. Let's look at them race-by-race.
TERRAN:
To understand why the first new Terran unit is a bad idea, you need to understand the way the three races are designed. Until now, Starcraft has been balanced around the three races different ways of recovering damage. Zerg units regenerate. Protoss units regain shields. Terran mech units can be repaired, but bio units can not. Introducing the medic, a new bio unit that can heal marines, firebats and even SCVs not only makes Terran bio simply too powerful, but it removes the important uniqueness of the various races. In essence, it stops Terran being Terran.
The valkyrie is expensive and, given all the answers Terran already has to air units, unlikely to ever be built.
Special mention should also be given to the "Charon Boosters" upgrade for goliaths. By making it easier to a-move goliaths into guardians or carriers, Blizzard is dumbing down the game, and removing the importance of micro, positional play and strategy.
ZERG:
The zerg army is all about manoeuvrability and strength in numbers. So why the hell are they getting a big, dumb, immobile, lame copy of a siege tank? Lurkers are not zerg-like at all and have no place in the game.
Devourers, on the other hand, look promising as they finally give the zerg an answer to carriers and battlecruisers, where previously players would have had to build (and lose) scourge to take care of those threats.
PROTOSS:
Dark Templar were fun in the single-player game, but I can't for the life of me understand why Blizzard think they will work in multi-player. Maybe they were just too lazy to make a new unit, and fell back on one they'd already developed? Zerg has to make Overlords anyway, so they already have detection everywhere, Terran can take out DTs with a single scan, and Protoss has cannons and observers. I don't see DTs being used in any kind of serious game.
Dark Archon. Does Protoss really need another spell-caster? Some of its abilities seem useful (Mind Control could be potentially game-breaking as it allows you to exceed the supply cap (!)), but since nobody is going to be building Dark Templar, putting those abilities on the Dark Archon seems a great way to ensure they are never used.
Corsairs: oh great. Protoss gets another useless air unit to go alongside the Scout. Yawn.
Overall, I am incredibly pessimistic about the release of Brood War. All I can hope is that enough people keep playing the original Starcraft without these worthless additions that we can maintain a viable league for years to come. Lol, you deserve a medal Whoever posted that on Reddit is a bloody idiot. It makes little critical sense and is a bunch of anecdotal ranting.
Absolutely true, but since it's written in an amusing and well-organized way, it deserves a point-by-point takedown.The author misses the basic point and strawmans quite a bit, and in fact presents evidence that directly undermines his position and confirms mine. I'll break it down with a point-by-point analysis:
Carlfish wrote:
TERRAN:
To understand why the first new Terran unit is a bad idea, you need to understand the way the three races are designed. Until now, Starcraft has been balanced around the three races different ways of recovering damage. Zerg units regenerate. Protoss units regain shields. Terran mech units can be repaired, but bio units can not. Introducing the medic, a new bio unit that can heal marines, firebats and even SCVs not only makes Terran bio simply too powerful, but it removes the important uniqueness of the various races. In essence, it stops Terran being Terran.
Honestly, yes: medic changed a fundamental Terran mechanic. This made TvZ in BW different than TvZ in SC. However, you'll note that this guy says it makes bio "simply too powerful"-- I never make statements about power. Also, the Medic is basically irrelevant to TvT and TvP, so it's a relatively minor change. No amount of healing can prevent bio from getting completely brutalized instantly by Siege Tank and Reaver attacks.
Carlfish wrote:
The valkyrie is expensive and, given all the answers Terran already has to air units, unlikely to ever be built.
Dark Archon. Does Protoss really need another spell-caster? Some of its abilities seem useful (Mind Control could be potentially game-breaking as it allows you to exceed the supply cap (!)), but since nobody is going to be building Dark Templar, putting those abilities on the Dark Archon seems a great way to ensure they are never used.
Corsairs: oh great. Protoss gets another useless air unit to go alongside the Scout. Yawn.
Devourers, on the other hand, look promising as they finally give the zerg an answer to carriers and battlecruisers, where previously players would have had to build (and lose) scourge to take care of those threats.
See, this is where I wonder if the guy actually read my post. This is literally the opposite of what I'm saying. Giving Terran, Zerg, or Protoss something it ALREADY HAS is exactly what I want, not giving them new things. I'd consider these changes to all be excellent and within the flavor of the races: this is a strawman.
Carlfish wrote:
Special mention should also be given to the "Charon Boosters" upgrade for goliaths. By making it easier to a-move goliaths into guardians or carriers, Blizzard is dumbing down the game, and removing the importance of micro, positional play and strategy.
Dumbing down the game is never mentioned in my post-- I an talking about the races becoming more like each other, not races getting units that dumb down the game. The fact that Hellions or Warhounds CAN be a-moved is certainly a problem, but the real problem is that they don't play like existing Terran units. Again: I don't think this guy really read my post.
Carlfish wrote:
ZERG:
The zerg army is all about manoeuvrability and strength in numbers. So why the hell are they getting a big, dumb, immobile, lame copy of a siege tank? Lurkers are not zerg-like at all and have no place in the game.
So, first off, Sc1 Zerg wasn't about speed-- people hadn't learned of muta stacking, it was typically about mass Hydra, then Ultras, so this is incorrect on its face. To talk about the analogy from my post: I don't particularly mind the inclusion of the swarm host, I just think it should be more "zerg-ey" in the way it spawns its minions. In fact, overall, the Zerg changes all seem pretty OK to me. Check out the paragraphs I have devoted to it when you get the chance.
Carlfish wrote:
Dark Templar were fun in the single-player game, but I can't for the life of me understand why Blizzard think they will work in multi-player. Maybe they were just too lazy to make a new unit, and fell back on one they'd already developed? Zerg has to make Overlords anyway, so they already have detection everywhere, Terran can take out DTs with a single scan, and Protoss has cannons and observers. I don't see DTs being used in any kind of serious game.
A unit being weak is literally irrelevant to my post. I explicitly state that I suspect Blizzard will balance the game.
Overall, I get the feeling the guy just wanted to bag on someone who was complaining about HotS, which I get, but I hope that next time he reads my article more carefully. His points about the Valk, Dark Archon, and Corsair are actually completely inverted-- he thinks I'd complain about new units being similar in style and function to existing units. In fact, it's quite the opposite: I'd rather enjoy those units for being similar in style and function to existing units, they'd fit into the feel of the races.
His satire could have been an excellent critique of my article and views (and there have been), but the commenter simply didn't spend the time actually read my points. That being said, he's clearly a good writer and a smart guy, but I can see why he posted it on Reddit rather than TL. It's also possible he meant it as a more general satire of people who have reservations about the current direction that HotS is going in, which is why he made it its own thread on Reddit-- if that's the case, then his many points that don't apply to me at all are not actually a result of laziness on his part, but addressing other authors. Either way, I don't find his satire particularly salient, except the section about the Medic.
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This is kind of a useless post because you cant judge units off of how you 'feel' its a computer game its run off of numbers and how the units interact, just because you watched two battle reports and dont 'feel' good about the units doesnt mean anything, you cant start making judgements like this without even playing it.
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On August 19 2012 05:47 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 04:47 CecilSunkure wrote:On August 19 2012 04:03 VictorJones wrote:On August 19 2012 03:34 Bijan wrote:From Reddit:Somebody has to say it. Based on everything we have learned about it so far, the Starcraft expansion is just further proof that Blizzard has no idea how to design a game. The new units range from bland "me too" designs, to completely broken units that will ruin the game. Let's look at them race-by-race.
TERRAN:
To understand why the first new Terran unit is a bad idea, you need to understand the way the three races are designed. Until now, Starcraft has been balanced around the three races different ways of recovering damage. Zerg units regenerate. Protoss units regain shields. Terran mech units can be repaired, but bio units can not. Introducing the medic, a new bio unit that can heal marines, firebats and even SCVs not only makes Terran bio simply too powerful, but it removes the important uniqueness of the various races. In essence, it stops Terran being Terran.
The valkyrie is expensive and, given all the answers Terran already has to air units, unlikely to ever be built.
Special mention should also be given to the "Charon Boosters" upgrade for goliaths. By making it easier to a-move goliaths into guardians or carriers, Blizzard is dumbing down the game, and removing the importance of micro, positional play and strategy.
ZERG:
The zerg army is all about manoeuvrability and strength in numbers. So why the hell are they getting a big, dumb, immobile, lame copy of a siege tank? Lurkers are not zerg-like at all and have no place in the game.
Devourers, on the other hand, look promising as they finally give the zerg an answer to carriers and battlecruisers, where previously players would have had to build (and lose) scourge to take care of those threats.
PROTOSS:
Dark Templar were fun in the single-player game, but I can't for the life of me understand why Blizzard think they will work in multi-player. Maybe they were just too lazy to make a new unit, and fell back on one they'd already developed? Zerg has to make Overlords anyway, so they already have detection everywhere, Terran can take out DTs with a single scan, and Protoss has cannons and observers. I don't see DTs being used in any kind of serious game.
Dark Archon. Does Protoss really need another spell-caster? Some of its abilities seem useful (Mind Control could be potentially game-breaking as it allows you to exceed the supply cap (!)), but since nobody is going to be building Dark Templar, putting those abilities on the Dark Archon seems a great way to ensure they are never used.
Corsairs: oh great. Protoss gets another useless air unit to go alongside the Scout. Yawn.
Overall, I am incredibly pessimistic about the release of Brood War. All I can hope is that enough people keep playing the original Starcraft without these worthless additions that we can maintain a viable league for years to come. Lol, you deserve a medal Whoever posted that on Reddit is a bloody idiot. It makes little critical sense and is a bunch of anecdotal ranting. Absolutely true, but since it's written in an amusing and well-organized way, it deserves a point-by-point takedown.The author misses the basic point and strawmans quite a bit, and in fact presents evidence that directly undermines his position and confirms mine. I'll break it down with a point-by-point analysis:
Show nested quote +Carlfish wrote:
TERRAN:
To understand why the first new Terran unit is a bad idea, you need to understand the way the three races are designed. Until now, Starcraft has been balanced around the three races different ways of recovering damage. Zerg units regenerate. Protoss units regain shields. Terran mech units can be repaired, but bio units can not. Introducing the medic, a new bio unit that can heal marines, firebats and even SCVs not only makes Terran bio simply too powerful, but it removes the important uniqueness of the various races. In essence, it stops Terran being Terran.
Honestly, yes: medic changed a fundamental Terran mechanic. This made TvZ in BW different than TvZ in SC. However, you'll note that this guy says it makes bio "simply too powerful"-- I never make statements about power. Also, the Medic is basically irrelevant to TvT and TvP, so it's a relatively minor change. No amount of healing can prevent bio from getting completely brutalized instantly by Siege Tank and Reaver attacks. Show nested quote +Carlfish wrote:
The valkyrie is expensive and, given all the answers Terran already has to air units, unlikely to ever be built.
Show nested quote +
Dark Archon. Does Protoss really need another spell-caster? Some of its abilities seem useful (Mind Control could be potentially game-breaking as it allows you to exceed the supply cap (!)), but since nobody is going to be building Dark Templar, putting those abilities on the Dark Archon seems a great way to ensure they are never used.
Corsairs: oh great. Protoss gets another useless air unit to go alongside the Scout. Yawn.
Show nested quote +Devourers, on the other hand, look promising as they finally give the zerg an answer to carriers and battlecruisers, where previously players would have had to build (and lose) scourge to take care of those threats.
See, this is where I wonder if the guy actually read my post. This is literally the opposite of what I'm saying. Giving Terran, Zerg, or Protoss something it ALREADY HAS is exactly what I want, not giving them new things. I'd consider these changes to all be excellent and within the flavor of the races: this is a strawman. Show nested quote +Carlfish wrote:
Special mention should also be given to the "Charon Boosters" upgrade for goliaths. By making it easier to a-move goliaths into guardians or carriers, Blizzard is dumbing down the game, and removing the importance of micro, positional play and strategy.
Dumbing down the game is never mentioned in my post-- I an talking about the races becoming more like each other, not races getting units that dumb down the game. The fact that Hellions or Warhounds CAN be a-moved is certainly a problem, but the real problem is that they don't play like existing Terran units. Again: I don't think this guy really read my post. Show nested quote +Carlfish wrote:
ZERG:
The zerg army is all about manoeuvrability and strength in numbers. So why the hell are they getting a big, dumb, immobile, lame copy of a siege tank? Lurkers are not zerg-like at all and have no place in the game. So, first off, Sc1 Zerg wasn't about speed-- people hadn't learned of muta stacking, it was typically about mass Hydra, then Ultras, so this is incorrect on its face. To talk about the analogy from my post: I don't particularly mind the inclusion of the swarm host, I just think it should be more "zerg-ey" in the way it spawns its minions. In fact, overall, the Zerg changes all seem pretty OK to me. Check out the paragraphs I have devoted to it when you get the chance. Show nested quote +Carlfish wrote:
Dark Templar were fun in the single-player game, but I can't for the life of me understand why Blizzard think they will work in multi-player. Maybe they were just too lazy to make a new unit, and fell back on one they'd already developed? Zerg has to make Overlords anyway, so they already have detection everywhere, Terran can take out DTs with a single scan, and Protoss has cannons and observers. I don't see DTs being used in any kind of serious game.
A unit being weak is literally irrelevant to my post. I explicitly state that I suspect Blizzard will balance the game.
Overall, I get the feeling the guy just wanted to bag on someone who was complaining about HotS, which I get, but I hope that next time he reads my article more carefully. His points about the Valk, Dark Archon, and Corsair are actually completely inverted-- he thinks I'd complain about new units being similar in style and function to existing units. In fact, it's quite the opposite: I'd rather enjoy those units for being similar in style and function to existing units, they'd fit into the feel of the races. His satire could have been an excellent critique of my article and views (and there have been), but the commenter simply didn't spend the time actually read my points. That being said, he's clearly a good writer and a smart guy, but I can see why he posted it on Reddit rather than TL. It's also possible he meant it as a more general satire of people who have reservations about the current direction that HotS is going in, which is why he made it its own thread on Reddit-- if that's the case, then his many points that don't apply to me at all are not actually a result of laziness on his part, but addressing other authors. Either way, I don't find his satire particularly salient, except the section about the Medic.
I thought your blog was well written and thorough, but I linked that post because it does make a great point about how we really can't know what the game will be like until we play it. When the beta comes out, these analyses will have a little more weight behind them.
I'd also like to remind people that a vast majority (although definitely not all) of the complaints levied against WoL during the beta ended up resolving themselves or being patched very well.
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Blazinghand
United States25562 Posts
On August 19 2012 09:13 Bijan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 05:47 Blazinghand wrote:On August 19 2012 04:47 CecilSunkure wrote:On August 19 2012 04:03 VictorJones wrote:On August 19 2012 03:34 Bijan wrote:From Reddit:Somebody has to say it. Based on everything we have learned about it so far, the Starcraft expansion is just further proof that Blizzard has no idea how to design a game. The new units range from bland "me too" designs, to completely broken units that will ruin the game. Let's look at them race-by-race.
TERRAN:
To understand why the first new Terran unit is a bad idea, you need to understand the way the three races are designed. Until now, Starcraft has been balanced around the three races different ways of recovering damage. Zerg units regenerate. Protoss units regain shields. Terran mech units can be repaired, but bio units can not. Introducing the medic, a new bio unit that can heal marines, firebats and even SCVs not only makes Terran bio simply too powerful, but it removes the important uniqueness of the various races. In essence, it stops Terran being Terran.
The valkyrie is expensive and, given all the answers Terran already has to air units, unlikely to ever be built.
Special mention should also be given to the "Charon Boosters" upgrade for goliaths. By making it easier to a-move goliaths into guardians or carriers, Blizzard is dumbing down the game, and removing the importance of micro, positional play and strategy.
ZERG:
The zerg army is all about manoeuvrability and strength in numbers. So why the hell are they getting a big, dumb, immobile, lame copy of a siege tank? Lurkers are not zerg-like at all and have no place in the game.
Devourers, on the other hand, look promising as they finally give the zerg an answer to carriers and battlecruisers, where previously players would have had to build (and lose) scourge to take care of those threats.
PROTOSS:
Dark Templar were fun in the single-player game, but I can't for the life of me understand why Blizzard think they will work in multi-player. Maybe they were just too lazy to make a new unit, and fell back on one they'd already developed? Zerg has to make Overlords anyway, so they already have detection everywhere, Terran can take out DTs with a single scan, and Protoss has cannons and observers. I don't see DTs being used in any kind of serious game.
Dark Archon. Does Protoss really need another spell-caster? Some of its abilities seem useful (Mind Control could be potentially game-breaking as it allows you to exceed the supply cap (!)), but since nobody is going to be building Dark Templar, putting those abilities on the Dark Archon seems a great way to ensure they are never used.
Corsairs: oh great. Protoss gets another useless air unit to go alongside the Scout. Yawn.
Overall, I am incredibly pessimistic about the release of Brood War. All I can hope is that enough people keep playing the original Starcraft without these worthless additions that we can maintain a viable league for years to come. Lol, you deserve a medal Whoever posted that on Reddit is a bloody idiot. It makes little critical sense and is a bunch of anecdotal ranting. Absolutely true, but since it's written in an amusing and well-organized way, it deserves a point-by-point takedown.The author misses the basic point and strawmans quite a bit, and in fact presents evidence that directly undermines his position and confirms mine. I'll break it down with a point-by-point analysis:
Carlfish wrote:
TERRAN:
To understand why the first new Terran unit is a bad idea, you need to understand the way the three races are designed. Until now, Starcraft has been balanced around the three races different ways of recovering damage. Zerg units regenerate. Protoss units regain shields. Terran mech units can be repaired, but bio units can not. Introducing the medic, a new bio unit that can heal marines, firebats and even SCVs not only makes Terran bio simply too powerful, but it removes the important uniqueness of the various races. In essence, it stops Terran being Terran.
Honestly, yes: medic changed a fundamental Terran mechanic. This made TvZ in BW different than TvZ in SC. However, you'll note that this guy says it makes bio "simply too powerful"-- I never make statements about power. Also, the Medic is basically irrelevant to TvT and TvP, so it's a relatively minor change. No amount of healing can prevent bio from getting completely brutalized instantly by Siege Tank and Reaver attacks. Carlfish wrote:
The valkyrie is expensive and, given all the answers Terran already has to air units, unlikely to ever be built.
Dark Archon. Does Protoss really need another spell-caster? Some of its abilities seem useful (Mind Control could be potentially game-breaking as it allows you to exceed the supply cap (!)), but since nobody is going to be building Dark Templar, putting those abilities on the Dark Archon seems a great way to ensure they are never used.
Corsairs: oh great. Protoss gets another useless air unit to go alongside the Scout. Yawn.
Devourers, on the other hand, look promising as they finally give the zerg an answer to carriers and battlecruisers, where previously players would have had to build (and lose) scourge to take care of those threats.
See, this is where I wonder if the guy actually read my post. This is literally the opposite of what I'm saying. Giving Terran, Zerg, or Protoss something it ALREADY HAS is exactly what I want, not giving them new things. I'd consider these changes to all be excellent and within the flavor of the races: this is a strawman. Carlfish wrote:
Special mention should also be given to the "Charon Boosters" upgrade for goliaths. By making it easier to a-move goliaths into guardians or carriers, Blizzard is dumbing down the game, and removing the importance of micro, positional play and strategy.
Dumbing down the game is never mentioned in my post-- I an talking about the races becoming more like each other, not races getting units that dumb down the game. The fact that Hellions or Warhounds CAN be a-moved is certainly a problem, but the real problem is that they don't play like existing Terran units. Again: I don't think this guy really read my post. Carlfish wrote:
ZERG:
The zerg army is all about manoeuvrability and strength in numbers. So why the hell are they getting a big, dumb, immobile, lame copy of a siege tank? Lurkers are not zerg-like at all and have no place in the game. So, first off, Sc1 Zerg wasn't about speed-- people hadn't learned of muta stacking, it was typically about mass Hydra, then Ultras, so this is incorrect on its face. To talk about the analogy from my post: I don't particularly mind the inclusion of the swarm host, I just think it should be more "zerg-ey" in the way it spawns its minions. In fact, overall, the Zerg changes all seem pretty OK to me. Check out the paragraphs I have devoted to it when you get the chance. Carlfish wrote:
Dark Templar were fun in the single-player game, but I can't for the life of me understand why Blizzard think they will work in multi-player. Maybe they were just too lazy to make a new unit, and fell back on one they'd already developed? Zerg has to make Overlords anyway, so they already have detection everywhere, Terran can take out DTs with a single scan, and Protoss has cannons and observers. I don't see DTs being used in any kind of serious game.
A unit being weak is literally irrelevant to my post. I explicitly state that I suspect Blizzard will balance the game.
Overall, I get the feeling the guy just wanted to bag on someone who was complaining about HotS, which I get, but I hope that next time he reads my article more carefully. His points about the Valk, Dark Archon, and Corsair are actually completely inverted-- he thinks I'd complain about new units being similar in style and function to existing units. In fact, it's quite the opposite: I'd rather enjoy those units for being similar in style and function to existing units, they'd fit into the feel of the races. His satire could have been an excellent critique of my article and views (and there have been), but the commenter simply didn't spend the time actually read my points. That being said, he's clearly a good writer and a smart guy, but I can see why he posted it on Reddit rather than TL. It's also possible he meant it as a more general satire of people who have reservations about the current direction that HotS is going in, which is why he made it its own thread on Reddit-- if that's the case, then his many points that don't apply to me at all are not actually a result of laziness on his part, but addressing other authors. Either way, I don't find his satire particularly salient, except the section about the Medic. I thought your blog was well written and thorough, but I linked that post because it does make a great point about how we really can't know what the game will be like until we play it. When the beta comes out, these analyses will have a little more weight behind them. I'd also like to remind people that a vast majority (although definitely not all) of the complaints levied against WoL during the beta ended up resolving themselves or being patched very well.
Oh, absolutely. I wouldn't be writing blogs criticizing blizzard's unit design if I didn't expect them to change it. In fact, given that HotS is in Alpha, we can expect great changes between now and when the game is released, or even changes between now and Beta. Blizzard is a smart company, and mostly good at game design (despite what people say) and listening, eventually. This blog is an expression of my faith in people's ability to complain, and Blizzard's ability to read these complaints and make better games.
They may be screwing things up now, but I'm sure I hope it'll be all good eventually.
All we have to do to ensure that is to keep the dialogue alive.
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