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Active: 1732 users

Obviously, I just dont understand TvP

Blogs > emythrel
Post a Reply
emythrel
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United Kingdom2599 Posts
August 17 2012 04:52 GMT
#1
So this has been buggin me since about season 2.... Everytime I think i've got TvP figured out, it transpires I haven't.

Before you read on any further, this isn't a balance whine or anything of the like. I watch other people play TvP and know that its fairly balanced, its just that I personally suck at it.

To give you a little bit of context, here are my current winrates....

EU server:
TvX - 52% 108W-97L
TvT - 72% 40W-15L
TvZ - 46% 37W-43L
TvP - 44% 31W-39L

US server:
TvX 56% 14W-11L
TvT 77% 7W-2L
TvZ 66% 4W-2L
TvP 30% 3W-7L

I'm currently sitting at around 1650MMR (note how I didn't say I'm X-tier Diamond) on both severs, but as you can see I;ve been playing much more on my Eu account, mainly because until a week ago I was playing on mobile wifi and my latency on US was not playable. Now I've got a hardline, I'm going to push for Master on US. To achieve this goal I clearly have 1 obstacle in my way.... TvP.

If I actually combine my accounts, my TvP winrate is at around 41% and my TvZ around 47%

You will see that my TvT is pretty stellar. I use a proxy cloaked banshee build of my own design that rips apart Master players on a regular basis. Even when I can't get my preferred build off, I have a mean TvT. This match-up obviously makes the most sense to me, for obvious reasons.... I play terran, always have and always will. My backup builds come in a few forms:

Proxy banshee, no cloak (if i scout early ebays or turrets up as i come in with first banshee) immediately expand and fly my startport back home to start medivac production.

Standard 1 rax gasless expand. Some maps just dont suit my proxy banshee build and so I dont use it and instead go for a heavily upgraded bio force backed up with tanks and medivacs.

3cc, 3rax in to 3 fact tank/bio.

I rarely lose a TvT. When I do its because of either a bad engagement that, even at the time, I know I shouldn't be taking or... simply being out played. The former being far more often the case than the latter. TvT makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

If you ever want tips of TvT, feel free to drop me a PM. Bronze or Master makes no difference, my builds are solid and of my own design, based upon my playstyle but easily adapted to others.

Now moving on to TvZ

This match-up is well my most fun in many ways (don't get me wrong, wrecking most of my TvT opponents in 10 mins or less is fun for a while, but it gets old quick). I'm close to 50% winrate and will always be somewhere around 50% +-3 depending on the kind of day I have and how good my reads are. My TvZ is based heavily around CC first openings, such as below...

14 CC, 2 rax before OC. 3rd rax after both OC's are converting. Bunker right by my natural CC. from here I transition based on scouting. If i scout a fast zerg 3rd, I get another CC and pump SCV;s and marines. If no 3rd, double gas on both bases and get up to tanks, stim and medivacs asap. I even sometimes thrown in marauders if I scout banes (lots of them) or roaches. My main play for TvZ is to expand agressively, get more rax than a clothes store and simply over run them with tank bio play. If all goes well I have 3/3 on bio, 1/1 on tanks and then 2/0 on Vikings.

I have many variations on this but its all scouting based and so too hard to describe them all without making th reader, or myself, die from boredom.

And Now.... TvP

So my overall winrate across all servers is 42.5% now you might not think that sounds too bad, but its worse than it seems. Many of those wins came against toss players who were low to mid plat when i levelled my EU account back to Diamond, after tanking my rating by losing on purpose... well not on purpose, I was just doing such stupidly wacky things, I lost nearly every game. On US server, I hadn't played for 2 seasons, got placed in plat and it took me about 20 games to get back in to diamond.

Against 1600(+-100)MMR Toss players my winrate drops dramatically. To somewhere in the mid 30's. No joke, I suck as hard at TvP as I rock at TvT.

When leveling back to Diamond my go to build was a simple 1/1/1 in to 3 rax Bio/Medivac all-in. Where both my superior macro/micro and multitasking got me a lot of free wins with a silly build that simply doesn't work against someone of equal skill.

Since playing people of my own skill and even many who aren't I just dont seem to be able to "find the win" so to speak.

I've tried all-ins (not really my style, but if it works...) but feel that coinflipping isn't helping me improve my TvP just my ladder points.

So now I'm back to macro macro macro. Doing 14CC builds and 1rax FE. usually with a 3rd OC added on really fast. Now the builds I use are of my own design, to fit my style but based on what the pro's do and are fairly solid.When I win, I win convincingly, when I lose..... I lose miserably lol.

I had noticed that my scouting often let me down in TvP and so focused a little more on that, I'm sending out more random SCV's to see army comps and spending scans way more often. I'm expanding aggressively and getting out the army comps I need to deal with the protoss. I win fights with calm poise and (for my level at least) some top notch micro but I keep bloody losing.

So here is my plea.... for many seasons now TvP has been keeping me in Diamond. Anytime I push my MMR up towards that magic 2000 MMR line, I hit 5-6 toss in a row and boom im back down to 1700 or worse lol.

I don't want people to point me to build orders, I want people who can directly help me improve in this matchup. If you are a Master Terran with a skill for TvP who would be willing to spend a few hours going thru replays with me and talking over skype, coaching me directly in game etc then I would love to hear from you. Conversely if you are a Master Protoss with a skill for PvT then I would love to practice against you and then break down the games so you can explain to me, from the Protoss prospective what I am doing well and what it is I should be looking for.

I have many skills and am sure that my respect and friendship would come in handy for you someday if you help me out. I'm a full time musician, a fairly accomplished sound technician, a very accomplished singer and vocal coach and a really nice guy (don't believe anything my gf might say while we are talking on skype.... she hates gamers lol) and I would be eternally grateful If I could find a few people to help me out of my TvP hole.

Emy signing out. Thanks for reading.


*****
When there is nothing left to lose but your dignity, it is already gone.
Chaggi
Profile Joined August 2010
Korea (South)1936 Posts
August 17 2012 05:17 GMT
#2
I'm not a Master's Terran (actually similar skill'd Terran as you) but I have a really solid TvP. In fact, I had the same problem of having a horrible TvP for probably the longest time and it's easily my best matchup now.

I just reformatted my computer but after about 100~ games on both KR and NA, I'm sitting at like a 66% win rate on NA and like 100% on KR (not too many Protoss and not too many games). Overall this season though, I want to say I'm sitting at a 70+% win rate.

If you want, throw me a PM. I'd love to figure out what your TvT is, I want a new build and my TvT is one the ones I really want to improve.
Salivanth
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia1071 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-17 10:09:37
August 17 2012 10:09 GMT
#3
Sounds like you guys could trade lessons. TvT for TvP. Win-win.
<@Wikt> so you are one of those nega-fans <@Wikt> that hates the company that makes a game and everything they stand for <@Wikt> but still plays the game <@Wikt> (like roughly 30% of blizzard's player base, maybe much more...)
Chaggi
Profile Joined August 2010
Korea (South)1936 Posts
August 17 2012 11:59 GMT
#4
On August 17 2012 19:09 Salivanth wrote:
Sounds like you guys could trade lessons. TvT for TvP. Win-win.


now to find a TvZ specialist...

TAEJA WHERE ARE YOUUUU
Sockpuppet
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
119 Posts
August 17 2012 14:08 GMT
#5
I'm really quite good at TvZ so if you want we could get a circle going where we all teach each other our best match ups. I am a 1900 ish mmr player with about 60% ratio in the specific match up. My TvT has a similiar ratio however my tvp is hovering around 50% and I would like to improve that.
Salivanth
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia1071 Posts
August 17 2012 14:24 GMT
#6
Note to self: Get a similar ZvX circle going when I hit Masters. That circle idea is fantastic.
<@Wikt> so you are one of those nega-fans <@Wikt> that hates the company that makes a game and everything they stand for <@Wikt> but still plays the game <@Wikt> (like roughly 30% of blizzard's player base, maybe much more...)
emythrel
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United Kingdom2599 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-17 14:31:59
August 17 2012 14:31 GMT
#7
On August 17 2012 23:24 Salivanth wrote:
Note to self: Get a similar ZvX circle going when I hit Masters. That circle idea is fantastic.


idd its truely inspiring to see these ideas just spring up naturally!
When there is nothing left to lose but your dignity, it is already gone.
Deleted User 109835
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
629 Posts
August 17 2012 17:18 GMT
#8
--- Nuked ---
emythrel
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United Kingdom2599 Posts
August 19 2012 22:56 GMT
#9
On August 18 2012 02:18 SKTerran.117 wrote:
So you cheese a lot in tvt and have a higher win rate than tvz or tvp.

Ok


Its not cheese, I make scv's constantly and expand just as the banshees hit. I don't cut corners. As my banshees hit I have seige mode ready and marines and a CC on the way at my nat and usually more scv's than my opponent... explain how that is cheese? Its a solid build that works time and again.

I cheese in TvP and TvZ from time to time but have no where near an 80% winrate with any cheese, cheese only works when its not scouted. My build is hard to scout but easy to make the correct read if you see double gas, no tanks and lots of marines..... however, its still hard to stop. If it gets scouted or they make the read right, i cancel cloak and transition in to a normal game. My winrate without using my banshee build is exactly the same as with it, I'm just good at TvT.
When there is nothing left to lose but your dignity, it is already gone.
Sitinte
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States499 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-19 23:50:06
August 19 2012 23:48 GMT
#10
TvP happens to be my strongest matchup and TvZ my worst (it used to be the other way around prior to queen patch). Unfortunately, I don't think my ideas would help you out greatly as my skill level is top Diamond (although the only Masters players I beat are Protoss and the occasional Terran).

85% of the time, I start off with the 1rax FE, but it deviates there depending on what I scout in the Protoss base. Obviously, if I read that there's going to be pressure incoming, I throw down an extra rax and additional bunkers. If everything is going standard, I go up to three gas, get Stim and +1 attack and push with medivacs at the 9:30 mark. Behind this, I expand to my third, or if I see that the Toss has gotten his third early on, I throw up two more rax and another engineering bay. Either way, the 4th and 5th rax go up during the attack.

Whenever I engage, I make it a point to attack in two different locations. Sometimes I'll drop in the main and pull the main army away from the natural, which leaves room for about 6-8 marines to stim in and grab a handful of probe kills. Sometimes, I'll drop the natural and attack the natural from the front, allowing me to flank and grab Sentries and other high priority targets. But I don't overcommit. Unless I see highly exposed Colossi or Templar just lying around, I won't go in for the kill. I do enough damage to buy myself time to regroup and get ahead in a certain aspect.

The main point of the timing push, however, is to see which route they're going. If I see Colossi, a second Starport goes down; Ghost Academies for Templar. I scan a bit later as well, because there's always the option that they're going extremely greedy and trying to grab both tech at the same time. If that's the case and I manage to scout it, I commit to an attack because that's when they're weakest before lategame hits. During this, I establish my fourth and pile on more rax and starports as I see fit. In addition, I secure vital areas, by placing sensor towers and turrets to prevent DTs from running around.

During all this, I drop in other locations. Never overcommit to drops, because you can always come back later and do more damage. When I drop, my targets in order of priority are: Probes > Upgrades (depends; can switch with Probes if my earlier attacks did economy damage) > Tech/Research > Artosis pylons (if there are any) > Nexus > Warp Gates.

This is just what happens in a normal TvP game for me. My disclaimer is that TvP is my best matchup; I don't consider myself phenomenal because 1) I'm not in Masters; 2) all my wins are off Protoss my level or at best, mid-Masters (rank 25 to 50). I still lose to well-executed all-ins because my unit control and crisis management is shitty. And I still lose in mid-game and late-game because I sometimes make a crucial judgment error or position myself the wrong way, getting either my ghosts or Vikings wiped out before my other forces can effectively engage. But for some odd reason, my super late games (past 35 minutes) have all resulted in wins. And I don't always do 1rax FE into 9:30-10 minute timing push; it's just the build I'm most comfortable with. I've also done 3 hellion drops, siege expand into bio, cloak banshee openers and proxy marauders. And even a successful bunker rush.

If you can send me a few replays, I can analyze the best I can and give you feedback. I'll also give the replays to my teammates (in CSL); most of them are Protoss players at mid to high masters and specialize in PvT.
Kh0rne
Profile Joined June 2011
Australia85 Posts
August 20 2012 04:06 GMT
#11
playing in a ladder system that (by design) puts you at a MMR where you are meant to get approx 50% win / losses

its obvious that your very high TvT is inflating your MMR, so the other matchups suffer.
This is normal.
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