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Well, I happen to know some scientific facts that support the opposite claim.
On July 02 2012 06:01 Boonbag wrote:
The way you view one's "ability to reason" is way too black and white.
Depressed people are vulnerable in so many fucking ways.
Issue ain't the ability to reason properly (that has no meaning), but rather the lack of perspective over situations, because of your condition.
Depressed people are known to have more realistic perspectives of the world and their own capabilities, because having an inflated ego is an important part of being a happy human. It follows that with more accurate information to base your decisions on, you can make better ones.
EDIT: If you're so terribly depressed, that also interferes with decision making. The sweet spot is in mild to moderate depression, lol.
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On July 03 2012 03:01 Demonhunter04 wrote:
Depressed people are known to have more realistic perspectives of the world
This is at best an open question. It is unquestionably not a "scientific fact."
because having an inflated ego is an important part of being a happy human.
But perhaps not a necessary condition?
It follows that with more accurate information to base your decisions on, you can make better ones.
How does this follow? What is a "better" decision? One that makes you happier, or something else?
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On July 03 2012 02:55 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 02:53 thrawn2112 wrote:On July 03 2012 02:50 sam!zdat wrote:On July 03 2012 02:47 thrawn2112 wrote:
also, subjectivity What about it?
on what grounds can somebody claim to be in a better position to make decisions for a depressed person than the depressed person themselves?
The point of therapy is not to "make decisions" for people. The point is to enable them to make better decisions for themselves. seems like you didnt pay much attention to the blog  The topic of the blog was the suggestion that people should postpone major decisions while being depressed, which is a good idea. Would you care to elaborate what I missed? edit: my point is that it's a straw man that psychology says depressed people can't "reason." this, for example, is the entirely wrong way to think about it: Show nested quote +
If one of the greatest thinkers is depressed and her ability to reason has been lowered to the level of an above average thinker
not only did you not pay attention to the blog, you didn't pay attention to my post either....
the point of the blog was to question the idea that while somebody is depressed, another person should be making their choices for them. regardless of if somebody's ability to reason is impaired, they still may be the most qualified person to be making their own decisions instead of somebody else. this can be argued but it shouldn't just be accepted as truth for every situation.
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On July 03 2012 03:04 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 02:55 sam!zdat wrote:On July 03 2012 02:53 thrawn2112 wrote:On July 03 2012 02:50 sam!zdat wrote:On July 03 2012 02:47 thrawn2112 wrote:
also, subjectivity What about it?
on what grounds can somebody claim to be in a better position to make decisions for a depressed person than the depressed person themselves?
The point of therapy is not to "make decisions" for people. The point is to enable them to make better decisions for themselves. seems like you didnt pay much attention to the blog The topic of the blog was the suggestion that people should postpone major decisions while being depressed, which is a good idea. Would you care to elaborate what I missed? edit: my point is that it's a straw man that psychology says depressed people can't "reason." this, for example, is the entirely wrong way to think about it:
If one of the greatest thinkers is depressed and her ability to reason has been lowered to the level of an above average thinker
not only did you not pay attention to the blog, you didn't pay attention to my post either.... the point of the blog was to question the idea that while somebody is depressed, another person should be making their choices for them. regardless of if somebody's ability to reason is impaired, they still may be the most qualified person to be making their own decisions instead of somebody else. this can be argued but it shouldn't just be accepted as truth for every situation.
Please take your tone down a notch, and consider that it may in fact be you who is not paying attention to me.
Consider the first sentence of the blog:
On July 02 2012 04:08 Liquid`NonY wrote:
A common suggestion made to a depressed person is to postpone major decisions until the worst of it has passed because the ability to reason is compromised.
There is nothing in the blog about "making choices" for somebody else (although nony may mistakenly conflate the "meta-choice" of choosing to make a choice with a decision per se).
My point is that depression has nothing to do with an impairment of the ability to reason, and nony's argument is therefore off base. Depression impairs heuristic perception of the world, not rationality. Depression contains elements of both an intense physiological effect and a crisis of self-worth (with unclear causality).
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On July 02 2012 06:06 StarStruck wrote:
When it comes to mental health the first thing I learned is that you should never generalize ever.
We have a jester.
I think the main idea of postponing major decisions doesn't have to have a lot to do with depression. People make better decisions on complex issues if they think about them a lot (as opposed to simpler issues, where it may be better to go with "instinct").
Another take would be the idea that "time heals all wounds", but again that isn't depression-specific.
As for a "reasoning scale"... aside from logical, mathematical and emotional reasoning (A felt ___ towards B, because B did ___), I am not aware of any. You would probably have to go to models of decision making instead. Now, decision making is very interesting, but largely restricted to testing of economical models. You give someone several choices, each choice is linked to a consequence, then you see how well people keep track of the consequences by looking at the choices they make.
Often linked to game theory. But yea, that's all I got right now.
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On July 03 2012 03:08 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 03:04 thrawn2112 wrote:On July 03 2012 02:55 sam!zdat wrote:On July 03 2012 02:53 thrawn2112 wrote:On July 03 2012 02:50 sam!zdat wrote:On July 03 2012 02:47 thrawn2112 wrote:
also, subjectivity What about it?
on what grounds can somebody claim to be in a better position to make decisions for a depressed person than the depressed person themselves?
The point of therapy is not to "make decisions" for people. The point is to enable them to make better decisions for themselves. seems like you didnt pay much attention to the blog The topic of the blog was the suggestion that people should postpone major decisions while being depressed, which is a good idea. Would you care to elaborate what I missed? edit: my point is that it's a straw man that psychology says depressed people can't "reason." this, for example, is the entirely wrong way to think about it:
If one of the greatest thinkers is depressed and her ability to reason has been lowered to the level of an above average thinker
not only did you not pay attention to the blog, you didn't pay attention to my post either.... the point of the blog was to question the idea that while somebody is depressed, another person should be making their choices for them. regardless of if somebody's ability to reason is impaired, they still may be the most qualified person to be making their own decisions instead of somebody else. this can be argued but it shouldn't just be accepted as truth for every situation. Please take your tone down a notch, and consider that it may in fact be you who is not paying attention to me. Consider the first sentence of the blog: Show nested quote +On July 02 2012 04:08 Liquid`NonY wrote:
A common suggestion made to a depressed person is to postpone major decisions until the worst of it has passed because the ability to reason is compromised.
There is nothing in the blog about "making choices" for somebody else (although nony may mistakenly conflate the "meta-choice" of choosing to make a choice with a decision per se). My point is that depression has nothing to do with an impairment of the ability to reason, and nony's argument is therefore off base. Depression impairs heuristic perception of the world, not rationality. Depression contains elements of both an intense physiological effect and a crisis of self-worth (with unclear causality).
my tone wasn't as dickish in my head as it probably come across on a screen
I agree with your last statement and how it should change the way nony is thinking through this issue but I am still standing by my original claim concerning the main points of the blog. I think this line:
I think it's a bullshit power grab made by a person who wants to go with a different decision and is too lazy or too god damned stupid to justify and defend it properly.
shows enough emotion (maybe suggesting some personal experience?) for me to suspect it's the heart of the matter and why nony has written out such a thoughtful post.
nony why u no follow up post?
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Yeah, I mean, I can't speak to Nony's particular experience, there are of course many terrible therapists.
I would be stunned, however, if there were not a good deal of rigorous empirical work on impaired decision making in depressed persons.
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The thing is, reason itself is actually a very subjective thing. Different persons and creatures have their brains wired differently, which will cause them to reason in a different way. Hormones affect brain chemistry which changes the way people reason and make judgements. So does adolescence, adrenaline, sex, sugar, caffeine.
An argument could be made that simply the fact that we are human compromises our ability to reason. I think Tyler brings up a very good point here, since so many things affect the ability to reason, how can someone say that one condition or another is what compromises said ability enough to warrant taking that ability away from someone? Its a very slippery slope and part of living in a free society (imo) should mean that we don't take people's ability to make decisions for themselves away.
The other side to the argument is that you don't want people doing something that they may regret doing or would not have done if they weren't affected by some condition at the time. Anyway, I can only imagine that it must be incredibly frustrating to have that happen while struggling with something like this.
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On July 03 2012 03:04 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 03:01 Demonhunter04 wrote:
Depressed people are known to have more realistic perspectives of the world
This is at best an open question. It is unquestionably not a "scientific fact." But perhaps not a necessary condition? Show nested quote +
It follows that with more accurate information to base your decisions on, you can make better ones.
How does this follow? What is a "better" decision? One that makes you happier, or something else?
A better decision in this context is one that is more likely to achieve the desired result. I thought the thing about perspectives was well established, thanks for letting me know otherwise.
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On July 03 2012 03:36 TheFish7 wrote:
The thing is, reason itself is actually a very subjective thing.
Disagree strongly. The whole point of reason is that it is not subjective, although the very fact that you feel it possible to claim this may be a sign that we are equivocating on "reason."
@demonhunter: it may be possible that a more realistic view of the world would lead to depression, but depression in and of itself does not lead to a more realistic worldview (and arguing this would require an already-decided "realistic worldview," which tends to make the claim a nonstarter, doesn't it?  )
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On July 03 2012 03:50 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 03:36 TheFish7 wrote:
The thing is, reason itself is actually a very subjective thing. Disagree strongly. The whole point of reason is that it is not subjective, although the very fact that you feel it possible to claim this may be a sign that we are equivocating on "reason."
What I mean is simply that any reasoning that a human being does is always done in the mind of that person. If reason is the method by which we establish ideas, then it is subjective because it can only occur within the mind of the human that is doing the reasoning, it always pertains to the characteristics of the individual who is engaging in it. When I say reason I don't mean for example; computational logic.
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I would argue that most real thought (and certainly all productive thought) is carried out intersubjectively in discursive communities through the medium of language, but this is perhaps a digression from the topic at hand.
I would use "thought" rather than "reason" to indicate the thing you are talking about - less confusing. "reason" in the sense of ratio is explicitly non-subjective, so I think you can tighten up your language here 
edit: to appeal to the ultimate (and intersubjective  ) authority: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reason
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On July 03 2012 03:50 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 03:36 TheFish7 wrote:
The thing is, reason itself is actually a very subjective thing. Disagree strongly. The whole point of reason is that it is not subjective, although the very fact that you feel it possible to claim this may be a sign that we are equivocating on "reason." @demonhunter: it may be possible that a more realistic view of the world would lead to depression, but depression in and of itself does not lead to a more realistic worldview (and arguing this would require an already-decided "realistic worldview," which tends to make the claim a nonstarter, doesn't it? )
Actually, the facts Demonhunter cites are accurate: Depressed people judge the world more accurately on average. Of these, those the least bias towards the world are the people with mild to medium depression/negative aspect. Im too lazy to go through my psychology books for citations, but it has been proven. This does not however mean its applicable to any one person at given time. Its statistical. Make due with this post:
On July 02 2012 08:41 guN-viCe wrote:I'm not convinced that being "depressed" reduces one's ability to reason (though, in some cases it clearly does). "Depression" is a broad word. There are multiple types of depression as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depressive_realismShow nested quote +Studies by psychologists Alloy and Abramson (1979) and Dobson and Franche (1989) suggested that depressed people appear to have a more realistic perception of their importance, reputation, locus of control, and abilities than those who are not depressed.
To the Web MD wannabe's and Hobby-philosophers; Please stop stating that a persons ability to reason is unequivocally reduced by depression. Cite papers and/or facts. Talking out of your ass, but being well spoken about it doesnt make it true.
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On July 03 2012 04:18 Aphasie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 03:50 sam!zdat wrote:On July 03 2012 03:36 TheFish7 wrote:
The thing is, reason itself is actually a very subjective thing. Disagree strongly. The whole point of reason is that it is not subjective, although the very fact that you feel it possible to claim this may be a sign that we are equivocating on "reason." @demonhunter: it may be possible that a more realistic view of the world would lead to depression, but depression in and of itself does not lead to a more realistic worldview (and arguing this would require an already-decided "realistic worldview," which tends to make the claim a nonstarter, doesn't it? ) Actually, the facts Demonhunter cites are accurate: Depressed people judge the world more accurately on average. Of these, those the least bias towards the world are the people with mild to medium depression/negative aspect. Im too lazy to go through my psychology books for citations, but it has been proven. This does not however mean its applicable to any one person at given time. Its statistical. Make due with this post: Show nested quote +On July 02 2012 08:41 guN-viCe wrote:I'm not convinced that being "depressed" reduces one's ability to reason (though, in some cases it clearly does). "Depression" is a broad word. There are multiple types of depression as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depressive_realismStudies by psychologists Alloy and Abramson (1979) and Dobson and Franche (1989) suggested that depressed people appear to have a more realistic perception of their importance, reputation, locus of control, and abilities than those who are not depressed. To the Web MD wannabe's and Hobby-philosophers; Please stop stating that a persons ability to reason is unequivocally reduced by depression. Cite papers and/or facts. Talking out of your ass, but being well spoken about it doesnt make it true.
Hmm ok. I'm not a psychology major, so everything I learned, I taught myself. Can I have a source for this information? I read it ages ago and can't find a trustworthy source online.
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I am sorry for not having read through the whole thread and thus possibly repeating things that have been already said. But I would like to comment on the OP from my personal perspective, as my wife suffered from serious depression for several years and I had a very intimate experience of her condition.
I consider the suggestion to postpone decisions very reasonable, but for a different reason: making serious decisions is demanding. At the peak of the illness, every decision she had to make, even extremely mundane, had an obvious effect on her condition. I know that this is very individual, but I would suggest to a seriously depressed person to try to put everything beyong their head. Unless they have children or other people vitally dependent on them, there is nothing more important in the world than one's mental health. I would even say that the physical health is secondary in such a situation. Obviously, this ould be easier said than done if there is no shoulder to lean on ...
On the other hand, the question of the ability to reason is an interesting one. Every depressed person I have met (the number of whose is still shocking to me - the "epidemic"of depression may as well be the next big problem of the modern society) had some problem in percieving reality, particularly when it comes the percieving themselves and their abilitites. Usually, I would take their opinion on factual matters, or even myself, without hesitation - the only subject where their reason is compromised is always thair own life. I am not insisting that this should be the case of everyone, but I think it is a point to consider. Moreso because the affected person is usually unaware.
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I've been trying to come up with a good reply to this blog post for about an hour now. It's not been an easy thing to do that's for sure because I have many opinions based of what has been said.
I'll try to keep this attempt short and sweet:
Why go to a mental health professional if you are unwilling to accept their suggestions or at least understand that their opinions are based off their experience?
Doesn't the simple act of visiting them in the first place imply that you (or the law, or whoever drove you to them) believe(s) their ability to reason, or more to the point; their ability to judge your ability to reason is greater than yours in your current state?
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On July 03 2012 04:18 Aphasie wrote:
Actually, the facts Demonhunter cites are accurate: Depressed people judge the world more accurately on average.
This is fair. I'm not opposed to a correlation between the two, in fact it seems plausible.
Would be interested to see how they operationalize a realistic worldview, however, as that seems very problematic.
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There's also another problem not adressed here. While depressed people often make decisions based on more realistic and accurate judgements of reality, some of them (not all because it depends on the type of depression) also tend to make decisions in a more impulsive way, which can be extremely dangerous and is one of the main reasons you advise your patients not to make too many important decisions when depressed. This doesn't happen in every case though.
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One of the most important things I've had to do do deal with depression is to learn to differentiate between my own good thinking and bad thinking. It's not the ability to reason, it's not about skill with logical deduction. It's about emphasis. It's about what you choose to think about and whether or not you can see the forest for the trees. It's not about accurate your line of thinking is, but how helpful.
At some point I've had to be able to recognize certain kinds of thoughts and though patterns and be aware that they stem from the depression, and make an effort to not take them seriously, and to not become too worried about the suffering that they represent.
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Very well written rant, lol.
STICK IT TO 'EM, NONY.
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EPT
