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So, I've just played a ladder match, and because of the fact that I have been losing 9 out of 10 matches in the past, I have become the monster I never wanted to become. It was a TvP on Shakuras Plateau, and I proxied 2 Barracks just in front of his natural ramp and bunker rushed him afterwards. Needless to say, I won because he scouted it way too late and I was already killing his pylons while he was scrambling to get his first Stalker out.
When I pulled up the score screen afterwards, I saw that he was one league below me.
I felt horrible.
Cheesing for wins is not rewarding. Cheesing for wins is being desperate to win.
In pro games, I feel it is okay to do every once in a while, in order to ensure not every game becomes a 30 minute macro fest, which can be quite boring because if a Zerg is in it, they win most of the time. It's almost like watching a football game with Germany participating, if it comes to the lategame (penalties) you know who's probably going to win.
But now I have cheesed on ladder for the first time in my life. Now I can't go back to saying that cheesing is something other people do. I have officially stopped playing for fun.
I feel unsure about it.
  
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cheese are fun as well don t worry ^^
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ffs its not like you clubbed a baby seal or something. you cheesed a game in star2, get over it
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Dude, learn how to "cheese." It's a legitimate skill. Don't always cheese, and don't try to get to a level you can't get to in macro games by cheesing. But you should be doing a wacky rush at least 10% of your games. It makes a well rounded player.
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On June 28 2012 23:08 jrkirby wrote:
Dude, learn how to "cheese." It's a legitimate skill. Don't always cheese, and don't try to get to a level you can't get to in macro games by cheesing. But you should be doing a wacky rush at least 10% of your games. It makes a well rounded player.
Agreed. Cheese is an important part of the game because it forces people to play safe. A macro build isn't a good build if it dies to cheese. Don't be ashamed of your win. Be proud!
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On June 28 2012 23:01 Semtext wrote:
It's almost like watching a football game with Germany participating, if it comes to the lategame (penalties) you know who's probably going to win.
I feel unsure about it. Spain, not Germany, and I know how you feel. Shortly after I got the game I got to Diamond in 2v2 with my friend only by 5 gate zealot warpins every game and I felt I don't deserve the place. As I do now in Diamond 1v1, I have a feeling i'm only there and not in bottom plat or something because of 2 base timings.
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cheese is not desperate for wins.....;; cheese can help you learn the game... but of course if you do cheese every gam e than no...
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You tried to win a game and succeeded ? Shame on you !
Seriously, why would cheese be only something other people do ? If your opponent is playing so greedy that the cheese is a guaranteed victory (as you seem to think it is), then that would give them an unfair edge over you if you tried to play a macro game. I don't see what's wrong with keeping people honest. If what you're trying to do when laddering is increasing your skill, then being able to cheese (even if you don't do it 100% of the time) is something you should develop.
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Some cheeses give me an adrenaline rush to try to pull off.. If the opponent holds it correctly then the game's over sometimes. I play zerg, so usually that's like baneling busts vs terran or protoss, or fast pool into speedlings or banes in zvz. i typically dont play like this often, but whenever I do i feel it makes the game feel a different way. To be honest, I hate losing to cheese as well, but at the same time-- any time I hold off a cheese I feel even better 
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You are assuming cheesing isn't fun or that your opponent has never cheesed.
In broodwar there are a lot of custom No-Rush 20 games (no attacking for 20 minutes). Maybe you'd feel more comfortable there?
Cheese has to exist or else build orders get dishonest.
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I 4gated once, first time I ever tried cheese.
I felt physically ill, that poor Zerg. I don't mind when people cheese me but what I did... what I did was horrible.
I'm gonna find that replay and send compensation to that guy's family.
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I don't understand this aversion to "cheese" in the sc community. It's a legit part of the game.
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I feel sad for you.
Who the hell do you think you are bringing your cheese/all-in builds into this illustrious game? How dare you not play with honor and dignity! PHITU EWIE! I spit at you and fart in your general direction. Now go away before I taunt you a second time!
p.s. add french accent and you will get the last part
p.p.s. cheese it's part of the game. GSL seasons 1-4 were virtually all cheese, so until you can get to the skill level of GSL Season 5 I say it's ok to cheese from time to time.
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Italy12246 Posts
Dude it's not like you did cocaine or something. Cheese is part of the game, you will cheese and get cheesed again, period.
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For one thing, the fact that there are people who support cheesing this way is appalling. Having fun at other people's expense just for the sake of having fun (or winning, the same thing, cheese really doesn't improve your gameplay and only thing it tests is your luck) is really a dick thing to do.
On the other hand OP really shouldn't feel bad about this, you just tought the protoss opponent a valuable lesson about scouting, rest assured, that next time he played terran he did not forget to scout
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On June 28 2012 23:16 ApocAlypsE007 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 23:01 Semtext wrote:
It's almost like watching a football game with Germany participating, if it comes to the lategame (penalties) you know who's probably going to win.
I feel unsure about it. Spain, not Germany,
pfft Germany hasn't lost in penalties in the last 50~ years. Jens Lehmann <3 anyway Cheese is a good thing to throw into your game every now and then. It can also make things fun to do TERRIBLE cheese for the hell of it.
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For one thing, the fact that there are people who support cheesing this way is appalling. Having fun at other people's expense just for the sake of having fun (or winning, the same thing, cheese really doesn't improve your gameplay and only thing it tests is your luck) is really a dick thing to do.
I assume you begin each game discussing with your opponent which build each of you should do to maximize each other's fun. I'd like a 1-gate fast expand with a touch of robo tech to go, please !
Come on. Being respectful of your opponent is one thing (glhf, gg, not uselessly drawing out a game you know you lost ,etc.) Deliberately not doing a strategy you want to do (either for fun or for practice) because it would disappoint the other player, you know, the one you're trying to beat ? If you want to practice against a specific style, that's what custom games and practice partners are for.
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On June 29 2012 01:29 PassionFruit wrote:
I don't understand this aversion to "cheese" in the sc community. It's a legit part of the game.
A significant portion of the community is stupid.
Cheese the balls off of unsuspecting people and bathe in the tears like a man
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as long as you don't do friendly-talk and stuff to detract your opponent but just cheese to win a game it's okay. there is this strange (but good) feeling of having done the same to other people, that usually gets thrown into your face. But usually after cheesing I message my opponent and apologize with telling him the reason (7-loss streak or wanting to equalize my wins for the day). They usually find it funny
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today i read a blog and ranked it 1 star and was an asshole in the comments. usually i read blogs for fun, but now i have crossed the line into being a dick to get attention.
being a dick isn't rewarding. being a dick is being desperate for attention.
i have officially stopped reading blogs for fun, i feel insecure about it.
i'm not sure what the purpose of letting us all see this blog was, but hopefully now you are as confused about this post's purpose as i was about yours.
as to the cheese/"honorable" play arguments: why do you look down upon cheesing? if it's because it involves no skill and the people who do it are never going to get better, then you shouldn't even care because while they aren't getting better you are improving and eventually you will not have to worry about them. if it's because the people who do it are too concerned with ladder ranking and that is a petty and ignorant way to think, then aren't you being hypocritical by caring about their ladder score? once again you can just ignore it and move on to the next game. if it's because cheese is a boring way to play, well clearly you are boring person who wants everyone to do everything your way.
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On June 29 2012 02:54 thrawn2112 wrote:
today i read a blog and ranked it 1 star and was an asshole in the comments. usually i read blogs for fun, but now i have crossed the line into being a dick to get attention.
being a dick isn't rewarding. being a dick is being desperate for attention.
i have officially stopped reading blogs for fun, i feel insecure about it.
i'm not sure what the purpose of letting us all see this blog was, but hopefully now you are as confused about this post's purpose as i was about yours.
as to the cheese/"honorable" play arguments: why do you look down upon cheesing? if it's because it involves no skill and the people who do it are never going to get better, then you shouldn't even care because while they aren't getting better you are improving and eventually you will not have to worry about them. if it's because the people who do it are too concerned with ladder ranking and that is a petty and ignorant way to think, then aren't you being hypocritical by caring about their ladder score? once again you can just ignore it and move on to the next game. if it's because cheese is a boring way to play, well clearly you are boring person who wants everyone to do everything your way.
you sir, are very wise. I always trying tell this myself whenever I'm losing to cheese. But having it written out like this is gonna make it way easier to not rage after losing to cheese. So thanks a lot Gonna copy paste it into a txt.file on my desktop
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LOL this blog is great. Anyone who thinks that cheesing equates to only trying to get wins is an idiot. Timing attacks are perhaps one of the most fun parts of the game, you get to launch a cool attack and you dont have to wait 10 minutes to build up. It's a way for impatient, aggressive players to rape kids/ use blink stalkers.
OP is being way too holier than thou and should listen to the words coming out of his own mouth x.x
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On June 29 2012 03:15 RolleMcKnolle wrote:
I always trying tell this myself whenever I'm losing to cheese. But having it written out like this is gonna make it way easier to not rage after losing to cheese.
unfortunately all the logic in the world is no match for my emotions after a particularly rough set of games; i have gone on tilt so bad that i miss my first pylon, do the wrong build because i forget what race i'm going against, etc. if i'm starting to feel the rage i usually just alt tab out of sc2 for a while and listen to elliott smith or something until my emotions can come back under control
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37022 Posts
So cheese isn't fun?
As far as I can see, cheese is a legitimate strategy for SC2. Therefore, you're still playing for fun man
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If you're cheesing because you care more about the trophy thing in your win-record then ya...that's probably not great. But then again, if all you really care about is your win-rate...it doesn't matter how you get it. If you're playing to have fun, have fun. If you're playing to get better, there's a lot of value in cheese, actually. Cheese can be a great way to learn specific macro while microing and punishes your ability to micro making you learn both things quickly. It also teaches you a lot about how to SURVIVE against early game pressure and attacks, and helps you learn the value of specific aggressive openings that aren't cheesing but allow for you to get an early lead to macro up or whatever, whcih is really similar to what you try to do with a lot of cheese.
Also, it's good to remember that cheese as a reaction is a lot different than blindly cheesing someone.
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Some of these SC2 players have this bizzarre shame of doing aggressive builds. It's like the only honorable way to play is passive macro no rush 20 minutes.
Have some fun and attack.
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Cheese is a key part of the game, and it makes games more exciting and dynamic. It also keeps players honest. Being able to deal with cheese and also executing cheeses at appropriate times are hallmarks of a great player. There's nothing wrong with cheesing. If I scout my opponent going CC first into like 3 rax before gas, then yea I'm going to do a roach / ling all in and not feel bad about it. Or if I scout toss doing a nexus into gateway with a super late forge when I'm 15 pooling then yea, I'm going to stream lings into his base and punish him for it. What are you supposed to just let your opponent be as greedy as they want and not punish them because you feel bad about cheesing? Give me a break..
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I think what the OP means is that in ladder, all you're doing is a bunch of bo1s so there is really no "real" point to it like say in a bo3 or bo5, other than trying to perfect your cheese. For most of us Ladder is the only sc2 competition we will be doing, so cheesing in bo1s can be pointless to some people.
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This blog has motivated me to go cheese for the next hour just for kicks. I'm in Platinum so it should make the cheese all the more fun.
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United States1169 Posts
Cheesing the the funnest part of sc for me o_o. It's so easy to 4 gate, lose, smile and say darn he scouted me early. Not so much when I lose a long term game and being mad about making a bad engagement, x units being imba, miscontrol, etc.
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I don't think he ever argued that cheese wasn't a viable strategy or that it was a part of sc2. I think what he was lamenting was he finds no joy in winning by cheesing the shit out of ignorant or crappy players. And that his devolution to cheese games was demonstrative of the fact that the game was becoming less about having fun and more about just plain winning.
I think people are reading this out of context or just not understanding what he wrote.
I can relate to the OP a bit. I play for fun and so I play random and play macro games. Why? Because to me sc2 is still a game and this is the way I enjoy it the most. I don't enjoy cheesing out shitty players or losing to them. I enjoy back and forth macro games and beating my opponent by being the better smarter player while improving. I don't get any of this by picking one race, or by winning in short BO games.
If he, or I, was an individual who found pleasure in infuriating my opponents or by just winning than I would cheese 24/7, but frankly I've never seen how anyone could derive pleasure from another person's anger so I just can't relate to people embracing cheese as a fun way to ladder. I'm sure a lot of other people can, and that's fine for them, but that's just not for people like me and the OP.
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On June 29 2012 13:01 fire_brand wrote:
I don't think he ever argued that cheese wasn't a viable strategy or that it was a part of sc2. I think what he was lamenting was he finds no joy in winning by cheesing the shit out of ignorant or crappy players. And that his devolution to cheese games was demonstrative of the fact that the game was becoming less about having fun and more about just plain winning.
I think people are reading this out of context or just not understanding what he wrote.
I can relate to the OP a bit. I play for fun and so I play random and play macro games. Why? Because to me sc2 is still a game and this is the way I enjoy it the most. I don't enjoy cheesing out shitty players or losing to them. I enjoy back and forth macro games and beating my opponent by being the better smarter player while improving. I don't get any of this by picking one race, or by winning in short BO games.
If he, or I, was an individual who found pleasure in infuriating my opponents or by just winning than I would cheese 24/7, but frankly I've never seen how anyone could derive pleasure from another person's anger so I just can't relate to people embracing cheese as a fun way to ladder. I'm sure a lot of other people can, and that's fine for them, but that's just not for people like me and the OP.
Finally, someone who understood my musings.
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Well, considering he said HE did it because HE was desperate for a win, I'd say cheese was used for the sole purpose of that.
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On June 29 2012 01:29 PassionFruit wrote:
I don't understand this aversion to "cheese" in the sc community. It's a legit part of the game.
Some shit is stupid, like 3 pylon wall offs or the 5 rax reaper. Builds like that are so cheap and have almost no risk attributed to them with a stupendously high reward that people just hate cheese in general because of them.
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Don't get in this way bro...this is the first step to the dark side....
First you cheese one time, then you cheese 10% of the time, then you only pick your builds because of good winrates (if you don't see who I'm talking of, look at my favorite team ).
Then it's not enough, and you start to play random to make your cheese more effective....
And finnaly you play with some friends, because bi ramps are better for the cheese.
But when you're definetly lost, it's when you keep playing random with your friends, but you aren't cheesing anymore...
When you come to the dark side, there is no coming back...
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if u dont like cheesing then just dont do it in the future. lol @ ppl who say that u hsould cheese 10% of the time to be well-rounded. who gives a shit? he's not a progamer, so he doens't need to have dozens of epic cheeses to pull out at any time. i play in high masters and i never cheese cuz i dont enjoy it.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
I don't cheese because I want to win; I cheese because I want to make my opponent suffer.
I want to see him struggle and squirm to try to get away from my almighty all-in, and fail miserably. I don't just want him to lose, I want him to scream. I want him to cry tiny protoss tears and I want to rub them all over my body and bathe in his sadness. I want him to feel despair, despair that he lost so easily, so effortlessly, so needlessly. I want him to be lost in the darkness, consumed by anger as my scvs and marines overrun him.
I want him to forsake his morals, his ideals of macro and honor and courage. I want him to be shaken to the core of his faith. I want him to cry out for mercy and find no answer. I want him to scream for his God and hear no reply. And when his tears hit the pavement, as he clutches his face and the madness washes over him, I want him to realize the truth: There is no honor.
And as at last his frail faith is shattered, as I watch him leave the game, I will smile, my veins still burning with the adrenaline of my banshee rush or my marine allin or my thorship, my hands twitching with the pulsing glory of victory, and I will feast upon his forsaken soul.
There is no truth.
There is no God.
There is only cheese.
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On June 28 2012 23:01 Semtext wrote:
I feel unsure about it.
Honestly, OP, I can relate 100%, but I think I know what may re-inspire you to play for fun, or at least (in my case) playing to be a better gamer.
I remember when I first went to Taiwan, I was really angry with things that were happening in my personal life and I saw playing to win, while simultaneously BM'ing every player I encountered, as a form of aggressive therapy.
But after I met Sen, and after my experiences at the first two barcrafts of my life, I felt radically different and changed my gaming philosophy to just playing to be a better gamer.
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I'm sorry did you even read my previous post or did you just dismiss it as cheese hating and took some words out of it?
It was never my intention to say that cheese is bad in itself. It is an actual part of the game and if it can actually win games, it is worth using, no question about it.
What i was critisizing is players using cheese (not all ins, not timing attacks, but total nonsense that fails if it is at least scouted) in order to rack up the wins on ladder. And these are the reasons:
-First of all, you are taking an easy coin flip to decide if you win, while your opponent has to work is ass where he is here and losing, especially against cheese is always emotional experience for everyone. Don't lie to yourself it is not.
-Secondly, you are hurting yourself, if by luck you manage to infiliate your rating. Yeah you can brag about your diamond league, but that is where you basically hit a solid brick wall and either you have to start playing legit what means dropping several leagues over extended period of time resulting in misery, and, well, rage.
And that brings me to the point i made in previous post. Cheesing to win ladder is a dick thing to do, since you are hurting your opponents and eventually yourself. Cheesing in ladder in order to improve your ability to cheese, however, is as legit as playing long macro game.
And don't you dare TL;DR this, i tried to make it as much spread out as i could so even 10 year old would understand it.
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I bunker pressure in 100% of my TvZ, either with a Maka rax or the dreaded true proxy rax. I did a word cloud of my last 20 or so TvZ. Without controlling for game length, GG appears in about 2/3 of the games, and 'fag' or 'faggot' appears in about 1/5 games. I have been told that I'm 'what's wrong with the ladder' and the people like me make the game not fun. I like to think of myself as a gatekeeper, keeping those who can't deal with pressure from having to face more skilled opponents. I mean, if 1 barracks worth of units +3 SCV is enough to cause this kind of rage, can you imagine what an 11/11 rax would do to these people?
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On June 30 2012 02:13 justalex wrote:
I bunker pressure in 100% of my TvZ, either with a Maka rax or the dreaded true proxy rax. I did a word cloud of my last 20 or so TvZ. Without controlling for game length, GG appears in about 2/3 of the games, and 'fag' or 'faggot' appears in about 1/5 games. I have been told that I'm 'what's wrong with the ladder' and the people like me make the game not fun. I like to think of myself as a gatekeeper, keeping those who can't deal with pressure from having to face more skilled opponents. I mean, if 1 barracks worth of units +3 SCV is enough to cause this kind of rage, can you imagine what an 11/11 rax would do to these people?
Since when bunker pressure is cheese? Compared to 5 rax, you've got a whole game ahead of you...
edit: also not like zerg will do anything different if he's already taking a fast third before pool or something greedy like that...
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On June 29 2012 21:45 Inori wrote:
If you drive a car you surely know some car model (varies from country to country) that, on it's own, is an awesome car, but is used way too much by idiots, so has a very bad reputation following it.
Thats probably it. Golf GTI, BMW 3 Series, those kinds of cars, usually with tinted windows, aluminum rims and flip-flop paintjob. That's what cheesing your way into diamond league is.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On July 02 2012 06:51 Semtext wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 21:45 Inori wrote:
If you drive a car you surely know some car model (varies from country to country) that, on it's own, is an awesome car, but is used way too much by idiots, so has a very bad reputation following it. Thats probably it. Golf GTI, BMW 3 Series, those kinds of cars, usually with tinted windows, aluminum rims and flip-flop paintjob. That's what cheesing your way into diamond league is.
Or cheesing your way into master league! <3
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EPT
