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There's something that has been on my mind for a while now...
I am watching TL vs Prime right now, and Taeja is one game away from all-killing the whole team.
Now, when we talk about the Team of Liquid, we think of success, skill and a great side.
But who are the top tier players on team liquid? Im my eyes, they are Hero, Zenio and obviously Taeja. All three of these players were gained from Korean teams, and have shown the best results thus far.
Now don't get me wrong; TLO, sheth, Jinro and Haypro are all great players, but they are not top tier. Ret may actually be closer to these three than I think, which may work against my argument here, but I do think he is slightly behind these three.
So my query is this... If a team like liquid acquires players such as the likes of Hero and Taeja, who make great runs in GSL and are accomplished players before their acquisition, does it... count?
Im not really sure what I'm asking here. I understand it is perfectly fine, as gaining new players is obviously necessary for a team, and that player carries the team flag for whoever they were acquired for...
But if they acquired Hero, say in the middle of when he was in a GSL, and he won the whole thing...is it right to say a player from TL has won the GSL?
I think it is when putting it down in history books, but if you look deeper than that...hmmmm i dont know what to think T_T
My argument criticizes what every team has to do in order to gain new players, so when reading over this it feels a bit wierd...but does anyone else sort of agree?
 
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United States10258 Posts
I mean, when ur talking about Hero winning the GSL and we picked him up in the middle of his run, it feels like HuK when he won right when he went to EG. TLO said it in Liquid Rising, it felt like a win, just with the wrong team.
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On June 27 2012 10:59 FlaShFTW wrote:
I mean, when ur talking about Hero winning the GSL and we picked him up in the middle of his run, it feels like HuK when he won right when he went to EG. TLO said it in Liquid Rising, it felt like a win, just with the wrong team.
Yeeeah, stuff like that.
I think it feels a bit weird to me because the way Starcraft works is unique to most sports: in that teams acquire individual players who compete.
I actually cant think of one other sport that does that, and i think that is why my mind hasnt wrapped fully around it. But yeh, acquiring players that are already good and claiming it for your team is something i will have to get used to i guess...
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Yes it's a win for TeamLiquid. I think what you're trying to to say, is that it may/may not count as a count for a "foreign team" because TeamLiquid isn't entirely "foreign" anymore. Something along those lines at least, I didn't articulate it very well.
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I actually fail to see a way in which teams are directly relevant to spectators. Aren't they just sponsors (who kind of also form teams, also from business standpoint), who let proffessional players get better, who supply us with viewing experience "under the hood"? In my honest opinion, people shouldn't care less what teams are pros, as viewers, more often than not, can't really change anythining about that.
Which brings me to my point, players, not teams win tournaments, as players are directly responsible for doing so. Which makes team name just a variable. Having that in mind, in my opinion, it is easy and safe to state that if a 18 year old player wins GSL, and at age 45 he joins green party, then a person from green party has won a GSL. That's definitely pushing to extremes, but it just shows that acomplishments do not belong to teams, they belong to players and team can reap rewards of it's successful investment by taking pride in it, because the investment accepted it. I hope i made my point clear, and really, elephants again?
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If memory serves me right, Hero didn't even have a single code A win before joining TL. Only after he joined he started showing results. Zenio was stuck in code B for quite a while before joining TL, too... Taeja on the other hand was a high profile player for quite some time before he joined TL.
Also, even though you mention Ret separetely I feel like you're giving him too little credit. Although, it might have felt like every player was ridiculously hyped in Liquid Rising, Ret is actually somebody who can take out anybody on a good day... not to mention that he is quite dangerous on his bad days, too.
Jinro has already provided incredible results for TL, but unfortunately he and Haypro have been underwhelming for a while now. This doesn't take away Jinro's previous accomplishments, though.
As far as your argument is concerned, neither Zenio nor Hero were "accomplished before their acquisition". According to TLPD Hero was 2-5 in GomTV matches and 2-9 in other matches before joining TL, putting him at 4-14 in tournaments until then. Accomplished is about as inaccurate as you can get when describing Hero's career before TL...
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dont agree in any way. do you want to discredit the team? why? so? not to mention that all players have to come from somewhere. reminds me of people arguing about how they listened to xyz before they were famous. so? in all sports, playoff bound teams take on players for the playoff push. its fine there, why not here? and in sc2 they stick around for a whole year, not just for the playoffs
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Because Haypro didn't beat Nestea.
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Zenio was code S when he was picked up, no?
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On June 27 2012 10:59 FlaShFTW wrote:
I mean, when ur talking about Hero winning the GSL and we picked him up in the middle of his run, it feels like HuK when he won right when he went to EG. TLO said it in Liquid Rising, it felt like a win, just with the wrong team.
Basically what I wanted to say x.x
good blog tho
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On June 27 2012 11:24 ggrrg wrote:
If memory serves me right, Hero didn't even have a single code A win before joining TL. Only after he joined he started showing results. Zenio was stuck in code B for quite a while before joining TL, too... Taeja on the other hand was a high profile player for quite some time before he joined TL.
Also, even though you mention Ret separetely I feel like you're giving him too little credit. Although, it might have felt like every player was ridiculously hyped in Liquid Rising, Ret is actually somebody who can take out anybody on a good day... not to mention that he is quite dangerous on his bad days, too.
Jinro has already provided incredible results for TL, but unfortunately he and Haypro have been underwhelming for a while now. This doesn't take away Jinro's previous accomplishments, though.
As far as your argument is concerned, neither Zenio nor Hero were "accomplished before their acquisition". According to TLPD Hero was 2-5 in GomTV matches and 2-9 in other matches before joining TL, putting him at 4-14 in tournaments until then. Accomplished is about as inaccurate as you can get when describing Hero's career before TL...
I think someone already mentioned Zenio as being in code S at the time.
Regardless, do you really think it was practice with the other members of TL that made them better? I think the starcraft scene lends itself for players to shine, not teams
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Ret has beaten people like that in the past, so yeah that works against your argument, also Zenio has really fallen off recently, love him to death when he was on oGs, but he is not what he used to be, he is like HongUn in that regard, where he used to be code S instantaneously but now he isn't the same. I really think we can expect more players to turn out that way, it happened to people like Trump and pwn, so it can happen to Koreans too.
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seems rather senseless x.x.
the team isnt claiming the title for themselves just that they have a winner on their team.
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On June 27 2012 11:24 ggrrg wrote:
If memory serves me right, Hero didn't even have a single code A win before joining TL. Only after he joined he started showing results. Zenio was stuck in code B for quite a while before joining TL, too... Taeja on the other hand was a high profile player for quite some time before he joined TL.
Also, even though you mention Ret separetely I feel like you're giving him too little credit. Although, it might have felt like every player was ridiculously hyped in Liquid Rising, Ret is actually somebody who can take out anybody on a good day... not to mention that he is quite dangerous on his bad days, too.
Jinro has already provided incredible results for TL, but unfortunately he and Haypro have been underwhelming for a while now. This doesn't take away Jinro's previous accomplishments, though.
As far as your argument is concerned, neither Zenio nor Hero were "accomplished before their acquisition". According to TLPD Hero was 2-5 in GomTV matches and 2-9 in other matches before joining TL, putting him at 4-14 in tournaments until then. Accomplished is about as inaccurate as you can get when describing Hero's career before TL...
see, i feel this genuinely needs discussion. because this comes up every single time Jinro is mentioned anymore, and it does, it is quite frankly, grasping at straws.
when i think of the starcraft community, i tend to picture a community that has by and large been around for a long time (for the sc2 crowd, since beta etc) but then i remember that was over 2 years ago now. and many people have left, but more importantly, how many people have came into the community, which is great, but i have to stop and think by now how people are actually around who watched the GSL games religiously back then? out of the total community, im beginning to think, not many.
back then, especially compared to now. the skill level was atrocious. 75%+ of every gsl was a cheese of some kind. 4 base play was almost unheard of bc games never lasted that long and players like bitbybit and Kirix actually made deep runs being garbage players. Rain made it to a Finals being a cheeser. Inca made it to a finals being a cheeser. the list goes on.
Jinro made a deep run at a point in this game's life when the skill level of the best players then were about the level of a no-name low to mid masters NA player now. at a time where tournaments were using maps that were mind boggling imbalanced. (seriously Steppes of War was in the GSL, Jungle Basin etc) if tourneys used maps like that now, pros would boycott the tourney bc it's just plain stupid.
Im sorry, but we give Jinro more credit for those two placings then we do to Fruitdealer when he won a GSL. im not saying FD necesarily deserves it either. just putting it into perspective.
what about Jinro's MLG win? why dont we talk about that? bc you know, its actually a podium performance at a time when skill levels were (slightly) better.
the point is,a result like that, when it was literally so far in the past that at least half of the community now, wasn't even around for it back then, frankly means nothing. is IdrA still the best in the world now, bc he was when he won the King of the Beta Tourney? of course not. same thing for Jinro.
the point is, i truly believe that Jinro (and his fans) need to stop living in the past, and focus on the now. that could be the only reason he hasnt won since then. its painfully obvious how much his team and fans (and probably himself) have come to define him as. and its time to move on.
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That last post has nothing to do with my OP
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On June 27 2012 13:43 cavalier117 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 11:24 ggrrg wrote:
If memory serves me right, Hero didn't even have a single code A win before joining TL. Only after he joined he started showing results. Zenio was stuck in code B for quite a while before joining TL, too... Taeja on the other hand was a high profile player for quite some time before he joined TL.
Also, even though you mention Ret separetely I feel like you're giving him too little credit. Although, it might have felt like every player was ridiculously hyped in Liquid Rising, Ret is actually somebody who can take out anybody on a good day... not to mention that he is quite dangerous on his bad days, too.
Jinro has already provided incredible results for TL, but unfortunately he and Haypro have been underwhelming for a while now. This doesn't take away Jinro's previous accomplishments, though.
As far as your argument is concerned, neither Zenio nor Hero were "accomplished before their acquisition". According to TLPD Hero was 2-5 in GomTV matches and 2-9 in other matches before joining TL, putting him at 4-14 in tournaments until then. Accomplished is about as inaccurate as you can get when describing Hero's career before TL... see, i feel this genuinely needs discussion. because this comes up every single time Jinro is mentioned anymore, and it does, it is quite frankly, grasping at straws. when i think of the starcraft community, i tend to picture a community that has by and large been around for a long time (for the sc2 crowd, since beta etc) but then i remember that was over 2 years ago now. and many people have left, but more importantly, how many people have came into the community, which is great, but i have to stop and think by now how people are actually around who watched the GSL games religiously back then? out of the total community, im beginning to think, not many. back then, especially compared to now. the skill level was atrocious. 75%+ of every gsl was a cheese of some kind. 4 base play was almost unheard of bc games never lasted that long and players like bitbybit and Kirix actually made deep runs being garbage players. Rain made it to a Finals being a cheeser. Inca made it to a finals being a cheeser. the list goes on. Jinro made a deep run at a point in this game's life when the skill level of the best players then were about the level of a no-name low to mid masters NA player now. at a time where tournaments were using maps that were mind boggling imbalanced. (seriously Steppes of War was in the GSL, Jungle Basin etc) if tourneys used maps like that now, pros would boycott the tourney bc it's just plain stupid. Im sorry, but we give Jinro more credit for those two placings then we do to Fruitdealer when he won a GSL. im not saying FD necesarily deserves it either. just putting it into perspective. what about Jinro's MLG win? why dont we talk about that? bc you know, its actually a podium performance at a time when skill levels were (slightly) better. the point is,a result like that, when it was literally so far in the past that at least half of the community now, wasn't even around for it back then, frankly means nothing. is IdrA still the best in the world now, bc he was when he won the King of the Beta Tourney? of course not. same thing for Jinro. the point is, i truly believe that Jinro (and his fans) need to stop living in the past, and focus on the now. that could be the only reason he hasnt won since then. its painfully obvious how much his team and fans (and probably himself) have come to define him as. and its time to move on.
Jinro isnt given more credit than Fruitdealer. He is just mentioned way more because he is very popular here and Fruitdealer, while popular for a bit died down and is gone now. Just because the overall skill level was different does not mean that his accomplishment is worth less. If you think that then you can go on and insult Boxer because he won earlier in BW than a bunch of people. Jinro did a lot of things very well back then that were very useful for that time. He understood things and executed better than most. Changes in strategy and map size were what first seemed to hurt his results a bit. But yah, let's all insult all the old winners. Pitchfork MC or Nestea next because their championships were all so early on.
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EPT
