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United States24813 Posts
Knowing two, or more languages is known to be very good for you! I won't go into the reasons why, as I don't think there will be much disagreement there.
What I have noticed is that citizens of the USA are much less likely to be bilingual+ than residents of most other countries. Most Europeans other than in the UK speak English as a second or third language. This also shouldn't be much of a surprise for most of you reading this.
The thing I do want to go into a bit is how Americans are treated for this. I often see lots of hate because many, if not most Americans only speak one language fluently. Most of this hate, I find (not all) comes from people who don't really have a right to complain.
Now if you want to criticize the country for not adapting a new mindset or policy regarding speaking multiple languages, I won't mind. What I'm talking about is how you are made fun of for not speaking another language besides your native tongue (the sad thing is how many locals can't even speak their native tongue that well, but that's a different discussion entirely, in my opinion).
A few things to consider (if any of these are wrong please speak up):
1) English is the official language of aviation worldwide
2) English is the most commonly used language online
3) English is usually the language that is used when people from several different countries are communicating
This isn't to say that English is better than other languages... just that it is commonly used.
When you grow up in European country X, you obviously learn the primary language from an early age. At the same time, while growing up, you also learn at least one other language (usually English). To practice, you use English online. You learn English watching movies or tv shows from the states, if you wish (they are available from what I've heard). Many countries teach English in schools as a second language due to its importance in the global community.
For comparison, someone growing up in the USA, while obviously learning American english, often won't get exposed to another language. When you get to middle school (much later than other countries) you will have to choose a second language to start learning, and by the time you graduate high school your ability in that language will maybe compare to that of a little kid speaking that language at home. Your usual daily activities, such as going online, watching tv, chatting with family members, or seeing movies, does not reinforce your learning of the second language at all.
It's really no surprise that so many Americans are not fluent in a second language. Spanish seems like the most obvious second language to choose (like I did in middle/high school) for most Americans since there is a large Latin Americans presence and subculture in the USA. However, if I want to learn the language and speak it fluently, I need to really go out of my way. I could try watching Spanish Soap Operas on my tv or hanging out in front of the local Home Depot having conversations with the illegal alien day laborers, but that's not really a reasonable thing to expect. The system is currently set up in a way that encourages bilingualism in some countries, and discourages it in mine.
Would people from the UK/AUS/etc mind sharing what it is like for you, for comparison? Do most people speak a second language fluently? Do you have the same predicament as us?
So in conclusion, next time you are going to make fun of an American for speaking only one language, remember, if you lived here all your life you probably would too.
 
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All I hear are excuses. One language = one worldview. If you are happy being stuck with only one language, you are to be pitied.
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United States24813 Posts
On May 14 2012 00:10 Jinsho wrote:
All I hear are excuses. One language = one worldview. If you are happy being stuck with only one language, you are to be pitied.
I hope I didn't give the illusion that I think speaking one language is good. Speaking multiple languages is great, and should be achieved as much as possible.
But you are doing the exact thing I am talking about which is bringing on unnecessary hate and blame. You also managed to not answer my question I directed at UK people.
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Now if you want to criticize the country for not adapting a new mindset or policy regarding speaking multiple languages, I won't mind.
There's criticism because European countries who are small and most homogenously than the United States (an assimilatory country that incorporates a lot of subcultures and languages) can learn more globally-accepted and viewed languages than them. It's natural because those smaller countries dependent on the world market and such, but at the same time, you'd think the USA would place more priority on speaking multiple languages to not only introduce new culture and open a youth's mind, but to also expand their horizon and give their CV a great boost (two languages statistically improves your success in job-hunting, no doubt there).
However, I agree with your sociological view that there are more options and it is much easier to learn English via media outlets or popular areas of culture/media than another language and that is a very good reasoning and explanation.
Would people from the UK/AUS/etc mind sharing what it is like for you, for comparison?
In secondary school, they're a bit more serious about the second language during the classes.
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Hong Kong9183 Posts
At least for a university track, American high school students are required to take foreign language classes; additionally some universities require it as part of general education regimes. The primary problem is after education, Americans tend to not go abroad; not using a language for a while will lead to forgetting it in the future.
Also, aside from the large metropolitan areas, the middle of the United States tends to be very homogenous, with little of the 'melting pot' experience that supposedly describes this country. Finding a speaker of a language that you may have learned while in education may be near impossible in these circumstances.
In addition, current news cycles place large emphasis on fluff pieces, entertainment, and domestic issues. Americans today grow up uninterested about international issues and the world in which this country plays a significant role built up through decades of management. This depth of unintertest shows in the ignorance displayed by a vast majority of our population. We wouldn't be able to show someone where Azerbaijan is on a map and why it is important geostrategically, but we sure as hell could inform someone about the latest Lindsay Lohan scoop. Picking up and using a secondary language may just be getting thrown out of our value set as a whole.
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I also think it is because of a mentality that Americans have. Why would you necessarily be focused into learning a second language when you already know the 'universal' language? Obviously there are many reasons to, but when I was in school I treated language class like arts and craft.
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I thought that there were studies that show the optimal age to learn another language would be around 7 years old. However, the American education system tends to start teaching another language at 12-13. Combined with lack of use in their daily lives, the skills would atrophy and will firget everything.
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United States24813 Posts
On May 14 2012 00:40 Phelix wrote:
I thought that there were studies that show the optimal age to learn another language would be around 7 years old. However, the American education system tends to start teaching another language at 12-13. Combined with lack of use in their daily lives, the skills would atrophy and will firget everything.
Yes this sounds correct.
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Not knowing a second language just really reinforces the stereotype we have in Europe about how dumb Americans are (no offense to fellow forumers here - but this is an existing issue). As I understand it's an education system thing, but it paints your country in a bad light.
In Europe, even outside the EU I believe it's impossible to finish elementary education without knowing a second language at least on a basic level.
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United States24813 Posts
On May 14 2012 00:44 Muki wrote:
Not knowing a second language just really reinforces the stereotype we have in Europe about how dumb Americans are (no offense to fellow forumers here - but this is an existing issue). As I understand it's an education system thing, but it paints your country in a bad light.
In Europe, even outside the EU I believe it's impossible to finish elementary education without knowing a second language at least on a basic level.
What language is the second language you learned to get out of elementary school? Is it the same for most students?
What language should be the second language you need to get out of elementary school in the USA?
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I am from Denmark.
We begin English lesson when we are around 9 (I think), and German when we are around 12-13.
I have had English for around 10 years, and German in 5. I am however only fluent in English, my German doesn't really get used/reinforced by for instance computer gaming and internet, so I can only understand most of it, but not speak it that well.
Most Danes speak English somewhat fluently, and some (mainly elderly and people working with Germany) speak German fluently. My brother does because he usually talks German during work.
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On May 14 2012 00:40 Phelix wrote:
I thought that there were studies that show the optimal age to learn another language would be around 7 years old. However, the American education system tends to start teaching another language at 12-13. Combined with lack of use in their daily lives, the skills would atrophy and will firget everything.
From my own experience: Languages aren't being taught at an earlier age in Europe. I knew almost no english before I started high school, and knew even less french and german. Next to that, the mandatory high school education made hardly any difference for me: english I learned by being in contact with it very frequently (internet, games, movies, tv), french I learned by actually living in France for a while.
The more multi-lingual countries, even within Europe, seem to be those with a home market not small enough to translate everything for. Relatively small countries with a high standard of living seem to do best even within Europe. Scandinavia and the Netherlands have always been better off than for example Germany, France or Spain, which have a population large enough to translate/dub everything for.
As for the Netherlands: You have 4-6 years of mandatory english, combined with 3-6 years German and French, depending on high school level. Additionally, at the highest level, you take 6 years of Latin or Greek, or both.
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On May 14 2012 00:47 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 00:44 Muki wrote:
Not knowing a second language just really reinforces the stereotype we have in Europe about how dumb Americans are (no offense to fellow forumers here - but this is an existing issue). As I understand it's an education system thing, but it paints your country in a bad light.
In Europe, even outside the EU I believe it's impossible to finish elementary education without knowing a second language at least on a basic level. What language is the second language you learned to get out of elementary school? Is it the same for most students? What language should be the second language you need to get out of elementary school in the USA?
English or German starts at age 7. After that, depending on the type of school you go to, you're either taught that language to the point you're speaking and writing fluently at age 18 or take a second language at 14 - if you're near a border then you can choose to learn the neighbouring language or a generic EU language like English, French, German, Italian.
English of course is the most prevalent. German is a logical choice in Europe especially if you neighbor a German speaking country. IIRC roughly 30% of all children learn 2 languages, and the majority of them learn English and German, but knowing any 2 foreign languages is a huge deal here when you seek a job.
Note however, that this is only how it's taught but some languages in Europe differ greatly from others, so in reality many young people find it difficult to master languages. But it's generally agreed upon that it's worth it.
If I applied this logic to the USA, those who live close to the Mexican border should definitely learn Spanish at a semi-intense rate from early age, while those on the West Coast should learn the language of any Asian country that's economically relevant, while the East Coast should probably learn some EU language. But I see the problem here, as everyone in Europe can speak English already anyway.
Anyway, I don't see how mandatory Spanish education in elementary school wouldn't help kids in the USA. There's not only Mexico but entire Hispanic America right under your nose there.
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I'm from Malaysia. Since we're a bit unique in our demographics having three primary cultures, we tend to have a minimum bilingual (despite how bad one's fluency may be). Generally the two cultures (Indian and Chinese) will have three languages in their grasps (Ignoring the fluency levels of course)
Here, we are committed to learn English and the National Language (Bahasa Malaysia) from the age of 7 onwards until we complete secondary school at an age of 17 - 18. Additional languages since as Chinese or Tamil is optional. If my memory serves me right, there aren't any other language options available until university. From there on, we are given the choice to further our education or join the work force.
In my current time in University, we use English but I suspect there are uncommon uses of the national languages during classes for the government / national universities.
Despite the many years, the fluency capability of our speaker varies largely especially in the rural areas due to less usage/ exposure and so on.
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On May 14 2012 00:10 Jinsho wrote:
All I hear are excuses. One language = one worldview. If you are happy being stuck with only one language, you are to be pitied.
I don't know, if learning a second language would make me start to think like this I think I'll be okay sticking with English.
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United States2822 Posts
I'll make a note here that it seems very common for Asian-American parents and families to be bilingual in their native tongue (as far as speaking and listening goes.) Many Chinese-American families send their children to Chinese school and speak Chinese around the house. This is most common when the parents are immigrants, as their English skills are usually not at fluent or near-fluent levels. As you move down the generations, this becomes less and less common. For example, my sister and I speak very little Chinese as both of our parents are fluent in English, but both of them speak Chinese (Mandarin and Cantonese for my dad, Mandarin and Shanghainese for my mom) because they were enforced to learn it by their parents.
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While I'm usually good at things I put effort into, I'm naturally terrible at learning foreign languages. I'm so bad at it that even I though I put effort into it at the beginning, I learnt next to nothing so basically gave up after the first year (learning it in school).
While it's good for you, I just can't learn it so I focus on the other subjects I'm actually good at (which angers my language teacher to the point where she's trying to me do afterschool sessions and get my family involved).
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On May 14 2012 00:44 Muki wrote:
Not knowing a second language just really reinforces the stereotype we have in Europe about how dumb Americans are (no offense to fellow forumers here - but this is an existing issue). As I understand it's an education system thing, but it paints your country in a bad light.
In Europe, even outside the EU I believe it's impossible to finish elementary education without knowing a second language at least on a basic level.
Yes, because there is a direct correlation between cognitive capabilities and knowledge of multiple languages. IMO this concept is simple. For the vast majority of Americans, the costs of learning a second language outweigh the benefits.
And for the record, Europeans have a tendency to overestimate their English abilities.
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It is pretty similar in Australia. You get the choice at the start of high school (for us that is, so grade 7) between some languages. I'm not sure what it was like for other schools but we only had 2 - Japanese and Indonesian. In hind sight they are both actually really weird subjects to teach when there are so many languages that are easier to pick up and more commonly spoken. I would imagine students would probably find themselves more inspired to learn other languages as well simply because Indo and Japanese are really out there and there would be a pretty small amount of people at my school that would have any intention of travelling extensively to either of those countries later in life. I'm pretty sure I've heard of some schools doing French, which makes a lot more sense to me.
Once you get to Grade 11 you usually have a few more options open to you; French, Italian, Spanish etc, again I'm sure different schools would have some different languages but I think these would be the main 3. You start from scratch I believe, so if you picked language classes all through high school you're probably going to be stuck learning stuff you learnt 4 years ago again. Pretty much what I'm saying is our situation is pretty similar to yours - if you really want to learn a second language you have to go well out of your way to do so in most cases.
There are a decent number of ethnic groups in Australia but outside of those, second languages are really uncommon. We don't get any flak for it though (at least what I've seen) I think mainly because everyone is always so busy bagging out the US for whatever reason anyway we just avoid the bullet. Like someone already said, in some places there is this 'idiotic american' stereotype so I guess speaking only 1 language ties into that, whereas we aren't really looked at as 'idiots' by other countries as far as I know.
All that said I wish my school made learning a new language more interesting to it's students earlier. Now I'm almost 20 and find other languages fascinating, but learning from scratch is pretty rough!
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there is no optimal age to learn a language. at the very least, studies are still going on.
people make fun of americans for not speaking other languages but this is an immigrant country. come to los angeles, you'll find plenty of places where people don't speak english.
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EPT
