• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 14:51
CEST 20:51
KST 03:51
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S RO8 Preview: Rogue, GuMiho, Solar, Maru0BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview27Code S RO12 Preview: GuMiho, Bunny, SHIN, ByuN3The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL47Code S RO12 Preview: Cure, Zoun, Solar, Creator4
Community News
BGE Stara Zagora 2025 - Replay Pack0Weekly Cups (June 2-8): herO doubles down1[BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates9GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th13Weekly Cups (May 27-June 1): ByuN goes back-to-back0
StarCraft 2
General
BGE Stara Zagora 2025 - Replay Pack Code S RO8 Preview: Rogue, GuMiho, Solar, Maru Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation StarCraft 1 & 2 Added to Xbox Game Pass
Tourneys
Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) Bellum Gens Elite: Stara Zagora 2025 $3,500 WardiTV European League 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025
Strategy
[G] Darkgrid Layout Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance
Brood War
General
FlaSh Witnesses SCV Pull Off the Impossible vs Shu BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest Will foreigners ever be able to challenge Koreans?
Tourneys
[BSL20] GosuLeague RO16 - Tue & Wed 20:00+CET [ASL19] Grand Finals NA Team League 6/8/2025 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread What do you want from future RTS games? Armies of Exigo - YesYes? Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Vape Nation Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
Maru Fan Club Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
A Better Routine For Progame…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 37246 users

Aggression is really good.

Blogs > Salivanth
Post a Reply
Salivanth
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia1071 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-24 07:05:20
April 24 2012 07:04 GMT
#1
The original: Aggression is good.

So having added aggression to my PvP, I was able to do it quite successfully today in PvT. Fairly standard game from me, going for a 1-Gate Fast Expand, and he went for a slightly different 1 Rax Tech Lab Expand. I expected a Reaper, but he went for a Marauder instead. Seeing no bunker, I decided to go for an attack, and all it cost me was a couple of extra chronos as I attacked with my first 3 Stalkers and a Zealot, breaking his front (including half-completed bunker) and killing a few SCV's in his main. Sadly he surrounded and killed my Stalkers with a pretty good move. Attack-moved his SCV's, I stutter-stepped towards his natural, but he built a supply depot there and trapped my Stalkers.

I knew he was behind, so what do you do when he's behind? Attack again! I knew he'd be going for a bunker and he'd have it up in time this time, so I added an Immortal to the mix and attacked. Again, killed his bunker, killed a few marines and SCV's. This time I retreated with the majority of my force alive. Finally I attacked one last time and killed him.

Afterwards, I watched the replay and a very interesting fact emerged. Once my attack hit, my opponent played terribly. He seemed reasonably competent until my pressure got into his main, and then, even after cleaning it up, his macro just FELL APART. He took a hidden third, but it didn't even matter as he was barely making workers, and he only made marines. My economy gave me the army edge to kill him, as while I was banking a bit of money, I was still producing workers near-constantly while attacking. This was a Platinum like myself. Somehow I had neglected to put myself in the other guy's shoes and realise that being constantly attacked is scary, and fucks with your game.

Lastly, I noticed an interesting pattern, going through a few of my replays. Aggression increases my APM. Now, I'm no expert at SC2, but I do happen to know that doing more things faster is good, and the best way to learn to do more things faster is to just start doing more things faster. Aggression forces that. I'm not great at it, but my macro doesn't utterly fall apart the second I start looking at my army anymore, and so I can use that as a base to start building it up. Here's some numbers, ignoring the first three minutes of each game, as I'm spamming in those three minutes.

Long-ass macro game 1 (20-minute double forge PvT, no pressure): 46 APM
Long-ass macro game 2: (Same as game 1): 47 APM
Aggression game 1: (He 4-gates me) 65 APM
Aggression game 2: (The one in the blog post) 60.5 APM

Naturally this isn't much of a sample size, but I think common sense adds to it here. It takes more APM to macro and attack than it does to just macro. More importantly, I HAVE THAT APM, I just don't use it when I macro exclusively. So aggression increases my win-rate, messes with my opponent, actually makes me play better, and is great for my mechanical growth.

Aggression is really good.

**
<@Wikt> so you are one of those nega-fans <@Wikt> that hates the company that makes a game and everything they stand for <@Wikt> but still plays the game <@Wikt> (like roughly 30% of blizzard's player base, maybe much more...)
EneMecH
Profile Joined March 2012
United Kingdom218 Posts
April 24 2012 07:20 GMT
#2
? Everyone already knows it.

It's a style that puts you behind when it doesn't work out and ahead when it does. Looks to me like your APM just is lower in longer games.

P.S: The problem is that 45-65 APM is really low no matter what end of the scale your on so people don't really feel compelled to comment on this post.
Tears soaks each hand the dealer's dealt. But time taught me how to see every second as heaven even when they're perfectly disguised as hell.
dronefarm
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States260 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-24 07:34:25
April 24 2012 07:32 GMT
#3
I think aggression is a powerful tool in SC2 in general, but a big problem protoss have is they get to caught up in aggression and don't give enough heed to their lategame strength. We saw back before the infestor buff a lot of protoss would do a lot of moves to pressure a zerg because they thought they needed to keep a zerg, who were going ground compositions (roach/hydra) in check, while in reality a lot of protoss had shown us that passive 3 base protoss colossus (and colossus voidray play) could defeat any roach/hydra/corrupter based composition (this is of course before mass broodlord/infestor armies were discovered). A good example of this is the final game of the IPL1, IdrA vs KewiKaKi (although this was after the infestor buff, new playstyles hadn't really emerged yet). A lot of the time protoss fell back on aggression when they had an advantage rather than acknowledging their superiority in late game and playing toward that.

While things aren't quite the same now, I would say the proper way to play off an advantage with protoss is always to make an investment in lategame (faster or more upgrades, another expansion, etc). Lategame Protoss is so very, very, very strong in every matchup, and I believe that you should be investing in that lategame. If you gain an advantage over zerg, perhaps you could kill him with an attack or gain a bigger advantage; but the reality is that a mothership army with a lot economy behind it is almost always going to help assure you a win than attacking when you have an advantage. The same goes versus Terran; if you have the economy to warp in a ridiculous number of speedlots anywhere while having the gas availalbe for a lot of templar for storming/feedbacking his army/ghosts who try to snipe a base, you're shaping the game into a scenario where every time he tries to deny you economy, it comes at a heavy cost while you form an army that is plainly better than his (this is why you hear a lot of terrans complain a lot about lategame TvP).

That being said, If your goal is mechanical growth, then aggression is a great way to force yourself to multitask and play faster, which absolutely will help when you bring those better mechanics to more appropriate strategies.
If you can chill, chill
Salivanth
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia1071 Posts
April 24 2012 07:45 GMT
#4
EneMech: People don't have to comment on the post. Yeah, I know my APM is terrible. I'm okay with that, and with people not commenting

Dronefarm: Thanks for the post. You do make a good point. (At least in PvT and PvZ, in PvP your opponent is just as good as you in lategame, so maybe "Attack when you have an edge" is still a good idea) I'll certainly keep your ideas in mind. I probably am gonna continue the aggression for A) Fun, and B) Increasing skill, but I will certainly keep your advice in mind if I enter any tournaments or reach a skill level I'm happy with and decide to go back. Thanks very much. Your advice will likely be even more effective when I'm at a higher skill level, reducing the chance that my opponent can crumble me with drops or snipe a nexus or something because I do something stupid, cancelling out the advantage I've won.
<@Wikt> so you are one of those nega-fans <@Wikt> that hates the company that makes a game and everything they stand for <@Wikt> but still plays the game <@Wikt> (like roughly 30% of blizzard's player base, maybe much more...)
TuElite
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada2123 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-24 07:58:39
April 24 2012 07:57 GMT
#5
hehe good. I hope everyone keeps thinking that way.

Because defending is amazing!

Out of curiosity what would you say is your skill level ?
Always Smile - Jung Nicole - Follow Nicole on Twitter @_911007 and me @TuElite
DanLee
Profile Joined January 2012
Canada316 Posts
April 24 2012 07:59 GMT
#6
Your apm might be low now, but if you keep playing aggressive styles you should build up the apm/multitask to macro and attack in different areas and such over time. I'd say keep it up, just try not to all-in if that's what you consider aggressive as that wouldn't work your multitask or macro in the slightest.
nty
Zariel
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Australia1285 Posts
April 24 2012 08:20 GMT
#7
Well done. Aggression has always been the best way to improve and get out of leagues. You will be surprised how much worse a players macro is when they are being pressured and how much your multitasking will improve when you attack THEN you realise how easy it is to pull back from a fight, build workers, make a few stalkers, build a pylon and go back to the battle all within 5 seconds.

Very often when I pressure the enemy with my 3 stalkers and 1 zealot, just like you, and after harassing here and there I realised that I've already expanded, got my robo up, and triple the army at base whilst my opponent is scrambling for units and repairing like a madman.

sup
Salivanth
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia1071 Posts
April 24 2012 09:58 GMT
#8
TuElite: I'm a Platinum player, though I've beaten a fair few Diamonds. If leagues were ICCup-like, I'd say I'd be moving between top of Platinum and bottom of Diamond fairly consistently. As it is, top Platinum.

DanLee: Yeah, I agree. I often all-in in PvP as a reactive thing, however. "Oh, he fast expanded with four sentries? Colossus all-in."

Zariel: Yeah, that really did surprise me. I mean, I've seen it in my own games, but I don't think I fall THAT far apart. It makes sense: If you're used to attacking and macroing, but your opponent isn't used to being pressured, you will inevitably do better than him, especially as you do the same thing every PvT and he doesn't face the harass every time. I'm glad you believe it will improve my play too, means I'm likely on the right track.
<@Wikt> so you are one of those nega-fans <@Wikt> that hates the company that makes a game and everything they stand for <@Wikt> but still plays the game <@Wikt> (like roughly 30% of blizzard's player base, maybe much more...)
Heh_
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Singapore2712 Posts
April 24 2012 14:58 GMT
#9
There's been a ton of good advice in this thread, and I would like to add an additional point. Try to scout out what your opponent is doing before committing to aggression. Sometimes, the opponent is blindly preparing for a big allin, and your non-allin aggressive move simply walks into a meatgrinder. If you scout for his army size and composition, it would allow you to decide whether to attack or defend, and how to adjust your army composition accordingly (you can just warp in zealots or stalkers, whichever works better).
=Þ
DanLee
Profile Joined January 2012
Canada316 Posts
April 24 2012 17:41 GMT
#10
On April 24 2012 23:58 Heh_ wrote:
There's been a ton of good advice in this thread, and I would like to add an additional point. Try to scout out what your opponent is doing before committing to aggression. Sometimes, the opponent is blindly preparing for a big allin, and your non-allin aggressive move simply walks into a meatgrinder. If you scout for his army size and composition, it would allow you to decide whether to attack or defend, and how to adjust your army composition accordingly (you can just warp in zealots or stalkers, whichever works better).

Usually aggressive play is for the purpose of always knowing what your opponent is up to, so the scouting is not exactly necessary. Also just because you go to attack an opponent who is all-in doesn't mean you are walking into a meat grinder, you can just go back to your base or keep trying to trade with him as efficiently as possible as he crosses the map to your base.
nty
EchelonTee
Profile Joined February 2011
United States5245 Posts
April 24 2012 17:57 GMT
#11
Good read. You are at the cross-roads where you can continue on this path and play an MC style of aggresive timings, or you can follow players like Genius or Parting who rely on solid multitasking and macro to pull out wins. Personally, I love the MC style
aka "neophyte". learn lots. dont judge. laugh for no reason. be nice. seek happiness. -D[9]
Heh_
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Singapore2712 Posts
April 24 2012 19:12 GMT
#12
On April 25 2012 02:41 DanLee wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 24 2012 23:58 Heh_ wrote:
There's been a ton of good advice in this thread, and I would like to add an additional point. Try to scout out what your opponent is doing before committing to aggression. Sometimes, the opponent is blindly preparing for a big allin, and your non-allin aggressive move simply walks into a meatgrinder. If you scout for his army size and composition, it would allow you to decide whether to attack or defend, and how to adjust your army composition accordingly (you can just warp in zealots or stalkers, whichever works better).

Usually aggressive play is for the purpose of always knowing what your opponent is up to, so the scouting is not exactly necessary. Also just because you go to attack an opponent who is all-in doesn't mean you are walking into a meat grinder, you can just go back to your base or keep trying to trade with him as efficiently as possible as he crosses the map to your base.


Well I guess a better way to phrase my point is to send something up ahead in advance of your army, like a stimmed marine or a probe to scout what is ahead. I've seen a pro stream where the player deliberately unsieged and resieged his tanks to that the opponent would take at least 2 volleys of siege fire; that was what I was thinking about. The worst case scenario is that you walk your army up a ramp, then forcefields come down trapping your army in a hopeless position.
=Þ
Salivanth
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia1071 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-25 08:36:36
April 25 2012 08:35 GMT
#13
Heh has a good point, though I don't think it's personally applicable to me.

In PvP, I always scout before attacking. In fact, I don't attack unless I scout in enough detail to see my opponent's economy, tech, and army so I can pinpoint a weakness.

In PvZ and PvT, I harass with the first few units. In PvZ my opponent can't catch me (I scout gas timings and retreat before ling speed can finish) and in PvT, it's the same, because Stalkers rule. If my opponent has expanded, he can't be all-ining, and I never attack up a ramp, I just move up, scout the front, and then run like hell.

All aggression after the initial aggression is based on scouting, so I don't walk blindly into all-ins.
<@Wikt> so you are one of those nega-fans <@Wikt> that hates the company that makes a game and everything they stand for <@Wikt> but still plays the game <@Wikt> (like roughly 30% of blizzard's player base, maybe much more...)
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 5h 10m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 699
BRAT_OK 98
UpATreeSC 79
MindelVK 48
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 5622
Sea 2710
Mini 722
EffOrt 418
ggaemo 234
Dewaltoss 173
Aegong 46
sSak 29
Backho 20
Sacsri 19
[ Show more ]
yabsab 17
Counter-Strike
fl0m6491
olofmeister3201
rGuardiaN83
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu355
Khaldor167
Other Games
tarik_tv38838
gofns13797
FrodaN793
Grubby703
Beastyqt613
ceh9357
shahzam252
Mew2King85
TKL 74
Trikslyr57
QueenE54
ZombieGrub46
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream1313
Other Games
BasetradeTV81
StarCraft 2
angryscii 50
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 21 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta27
• Reevou 5
• Kozan
• sooper7s
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• Michael_bg 4
• FirePhoenix1
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21313
League of Legends
• Nemesis5510
• Jankos1748
• TFBlade1282
Other Games
• imaqtpie900
• Shiphtur300
• WagamamaTV147
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Monday
5h 10m
GSL Code S
14h 40m
Rogue vs GuMiho
Maru vs Solar
Online Event
1d 5h
Replay Cast
1d 7h
GSL Code S
1d 14h
herO vs Zoun
Classic vs Bunny
The PondCast
1d 15h
Replay Cast
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
OSC
2 days
Korean StarCraft League
3 days
[ Show More ]
SOOP
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
Cheesadelphia
3 days
CSO Cup
3 days
GSL Code S
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Wardi Open
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Cure vs Percival
ByuN vs Spirit
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 17: Qualifier 2
BGE Stara Zagora 2025
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
2025 GSL S2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025

Upcoming

Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.