So we know this format is going to be used in the next proleague season . As a BW fan I never pay attention to sc2 although I did in the beta however I think the game has been develop for a while that is being played at a professional level for 2 years already . So I want to know what parts of sc2 is interesting to watch when they show a proleague game using sc2 ? .
I don't think I have to tell what makes starcraft bw interesting to anyone when the units are already exciting to watch . Do epic moments happen all the time or it's just sit on two bases and move out in a death ball ? in sc2 . I am really curious please fill in the details .
Especially what things to look out in a ZvT , TvP, PvT . Also if you want to know anything about broodwar you can ask me here just take this as a student exchange you tell me things I want to know about sc2 and I will tell you what I know about broodwar ^_^.
If anything, the pace of SC2 is much faster than BW, so you see a lot more smaller skirmishes in the early game. Also, while death balls are admittedly an issue, but the players themselves know that, so you will see Z or T try to disrupt before P gets their 4-5 colossus. I don't want to partake in the strategy vs mechanics discussion, but the easier mechanics does lend towards more multipronged attacks vs. BW, but that actually hurts us as viewers because it's hard for the observer to keep up with the action.
My favorite matchup is ZvT, primarily due to the counterattacking nature of the matchup. I think it's the most dynamic of the matchups with the most variable tech tree. Openings usually look the same, but there are a bunch of ways the game can go. It's also very different from BW in that T has been more aggressive in the matchup lately, so you are likely to see multipronged drops to delay Z from a Hive tech transition.
Honestly, I think one could write volumes on what separates BW from SC2 as a spectator sport. (I'm sure you could write 20 pages yourself )
As far as strategy is concerned, there are a few key differences to watch out for:
Zerg The Zerg play fairly similar to BW actually. The biggest differences in game play come from the Queen, which deals with both larva inject and creep spread and also provides the only early game air defense zerg has, so is key in a ZvT when terran can rush to banshee, also useful in defending against Hellion (vulture) harass. Inject Larva is a timed spell that basically adds extra larva to a hatchery, replacing the use of that early third macro hatch; you can imagine the importantce of this. Queen also lays creep tumors, which are sort of like creep colonies that can spawn more of themselves. Creep spread is actually pretty important as not only does it provide vision like in BW, but also gives a speed bonus to ground forces. Important because the hydralisk is stupid slow and and there's no speed upgrade.
In a TvZ baneling micro can be pretty damn important too, as Marine/Marauder/Medivac can actually be pretty deadly in the mid game.
I think blizzards starting to lean gameplay torward the way brood war matchups used to be played, for instance pvt atm is completely volatile it isn't really skill based it is 2 base a moves, and terrans want mech atm, if you go mech in pvt you usually just get countered and rolled and that's all there really is to it. The sc2 community and blizzard is actually trying to give the gameplay the community want's and there's always that 1 game that lasts about an hour but it's extremely rare, usually all of the sc2 tournaments are analyzing your opponent and reacting to what he's doing, like an all-in to kill a greedy build is typically the usual thing you will see in sc2 proleagues.
There is a couple sc2 matches that were extremely fun to watch, i could link you a few
On April 23 2012 23:33 TheToast wrote: Honestly, I think one could write volumes on what separates BW from SC2 as a spectator sport. (I'm sure you could write 20 pages yourself )
As far as strategy is concerned, there are a few key differences to watch out for:
Zerg The Zerg play fairly similar to BW actually. The biggest differences in game play come from the Queen, which deals with both larva inject and creep spread and also provides the only early game air defense zerg has, so is key in a ZvT when terran can rush to banshee, also useful in defending against Hellion (vulture) harass. Inject Larva is a timed spell that basically adds extra larva to a hatchery, replacing the use of that early third macro hatch; you can imagine the importantce of this. Queen also lays creep tumors, which are sort of like creep colonies that can spawn more of themselves. Creep spread is actually pretty important as not only does it provide vision like in BW, but also gives a speed bonus to ground forces. Important because the hydralisk is stupid slow and and there's no speed upgrade.
In a TvZ baneling micro can be pretty damn important too, as Marine/Marauder/Medivac can actually be pretty deadly in the mid game.
On April 23 2012 23:33 TheToast wrote: Honestly, I think one could write volumes on what separates BW from SC2 as a spectator sport. (I'm sure you could write 20 pages yourself )
As far as strategy is concerned, there are a few key differences to watch out for:
Zerg The Zerg play fairly similar to BW actually. The biggest differences in game play come from the Queen, which deals with both larva inject and creep spread and also provides the only early game air defense zerg has, so is key in a ZvT when terran can rush to banshee, also useful in defending against Hellion (vulture) harass. Inject Larva is a timed spell that basically adds extra larva to a hatchery, replacing the use of that early third macro hatch; you can imagine the importantce of this. Queen also lays creep tumors, which are sort of like creep colonies that can spawn more of themselves. Creep spread is actually pretty important as not only does it provide vision like in BW, but also gives a speed bonus to ground forces. Important because the hydralisk is stupid slow and and there's no speed upgrade.
In a TvZ baneling micro can be pretty damn important too, as Marine/Marauder/Medivac can actually be pretty deadly in the mid game.
SC2 lings aren't worth shit compared to BW lings
you forgot that part
Actually I'm pretty sure they have the exact same stats. Just aren't very useful in the early game against Terran due to hellion and marauder. I'm no expert on ZvP (seriously, my PvZ has always been laughably bad) but I would say zerglings have some use for the early game. Either way, I think the queen is probably the most major differences between the two games as far as the early and mid games are concerned. Banelings are important, but essentially fill the same role as the lurker.
So I take it that stalkers are like dragoons in broodwar . Do protoss player in sc2 mass stalkers and than use bling to out micro huge numbers of units ? I think mass dragoons in bw was viable as stork did use it frequently against terran in broodwar .
SC2 is very big on complementary units. It's something I personally find more advanced than BW because "counters" are so key in the game. So there is a certain timing in the game where just mass blink stalkers is viable (or most of PvP), but they are quickly able to be countered because they are glass cannons. You would need to pair it with immortals or zealots, and then ultimately colossus.
On April 23 2012 23:56 kakaman wrote: SC2 is very big on complementary units. It's something I personally find more advanced than BW because "counters" are so key in the game. So there is a certain timing in the game where just mass blink stalkers is viable (or most of PvP), but they are quickly able to be countered because they are glass cannons. You would need to pair it with immortals or zealots, and then ultimately colossus.
I find that weird because I see stalkers with the capability of blink and mobility makes it a very good unit to mass up and as long you can micro with blink you can get a good flank from each corner . Than again I am not sure about sc2 matchup although I would like to see a pure stalkers flank vs MnM .
I have watched bw somewhat casually over the last year and in the limited games i have seen they tend to have been very long macro games with large engagements tend to making attempts to deny 4th or 5th bases. That being said are there any non proxy cheese starts that i should be aware of that are a possibilty to occur off 1 or 2 bases?
On April 23 2012 23:52 Sawamura wrote: So I take it that stalkers are like dragoons in broodwar . Do protoss player in sc2 mass stalkers and than use bling to out micro huge numbers of units ? I think mass dragoons in bw was viable as stork did use it frequently against terran in broodwar .
The stalker is basically like a really weak version of the dragoon. But since it's the only mid-game gateway unit with aa, protoss are usually forced to mass stalker in all matchups and keep them together in a tight group, informally refered to as the "deathball". It actually makes for some really uninteresting play, and the stalker is the #1 problem with SC2 IMO, but that's a separate discussion I guess.
Blink stalker is mostly used in PvZ to defend against muta harass and in PvP, where both players are usually massing stalkers and blink allows for greater micro.
On April 23 2012 23:52 Sawamura wrote: So I take it that stalkers are like dragoons in broodwar . Do protoss player in sc2 mass stalkers and than use bling to out micro huge numbers of units ? I think mass dragoons in bw was viable as stork did use it frequently against terran in broodwar .
The stalker is basically like a really weak version of the dragoon. But since it's the only mid-game gateway unit with aa, protoss are usually forced to mass stalker in all matchups and keep them together in a tight group, informally refered to as the "deathball". It actually makes for some really uninteresting play, and the stalker is the #1 problem with SC2 IMO, but that's a separate discussion I guess.
Blink stalker is mostly used in PvZ to defend against muta harass and in PvP, where both players are usually massing stalkers and blink allows for greater micro.
That being said there are some shannanigens you can do with some blink stalkers all ins in almost every matchup although they seem to be falling out of poularity.
On April 24 2012 00:01 iamperfection wrote: Bw question here
I have watched bw somewhat casually over the last year and in the limited games i have seen they tend to have been very long macro games with large engagements tend to making attempts to deny 4th or 5th bases. That being said are there any non proxy cheese starts that i should be aware of that are a possibilty to occur off 1 or 2 bases?
Well 14 cc is a really good build if your opponent manages to start it off because you can either play economically aggressive or being aggressive at the beginning having larger amount units to kill of your opponent because he has the lesser amount of units at the same time . Basically any build that gets a jump start over you with economical advantage will be a disaster if you can't play catch up with them in the late game .
Also depends on what match up are you playing ?
TvZ - 2 rax fe ,1 rax fe, 2 base 9minute push with tanks and vessel
TvP - 2 factory , 1 rax fe , 5 factory push with 1,1 upgrades
TvT - 1 factory 1 starport with wraiths , 2 factory vultures , 1 factory dropship .. 4 factory push is also quite viable ..
On April 23 2012 23:56 kakaman wrote: SC2 is very big on complementary units. It's something I personally find more advanced than BW because "counters" are so key in the game. So there is a certain timing in the game where just mass blink stalkers is viable (or most of PvP), but they are quickly able to be countered because they are glass cannons. You would need to pair it with immortals or zealots, and then ultimately colossus.
I find that weird because I see stalkers with the capability of blink and mobility makes it a very good unit to mass up and as long you can micro with blink you can get a good flank from each corner . Than again I am not sure about sc2 matchup although I would like to see a pure stalkers flank vs MnM .
edit : blink....
Pure Blink Stalkers are pretty good in PvZ since Roach DPS is kinda bad against them and Lings aren't very efficient against the clumping and Blink micro of the Stalkers. I've seen many Zergs lose to Blink Stalker pushes, which pretty much look like FFE into turtling into massing Warpgates and getting Blink and ground attack upgrades into hitting a timing attack against Zerg with tons of Blink Stalkers.
However, they're actually very sub-optimal in PvT when unsupported because Marauders hard counter Stalkers so much. You can try to Blink all you want against Marauders, but stimmed Marauders deal out so much DPS that Blinking doesn't matter, and Medivacs help the Marauders tank against the lesser Stalker DPS even more. Plus, any retreating Stalkers caught by Concussive Shells are pretty much guaranteed to die, especially if Blink is on cooldown.
PvP Blink Stalker wars are really cool, however. Much better than Colossus vs Colossus deathballs slamming at each other.
Nevertheless, Blink is a necessity in every matchup going into the late game even if they're not used for some kind of timing attack. There is just too much you can do with Blink Stalkers.
On April 23 2012 23:56 kakaman wrote: SC2 is very big on complementary units. It's something I personally find more advanced than BW because "counters" are so key in the game. So there is a certain timing in the game where just mass blink stalkers is viable (or most of PvP), but they are quickly able to be countered because they are glass cannons. You would need to pair it with immortals or zealots, and then ultimately colossus.
I find that weird because I see stalkers with the capability of blink and mobility makes it a very good unit to mass up and as long you can micro with blink you can get a good flank from each corner . Than again I am not sure about sc2 matchup although I would like to see a pure stalkers flank vs MnM .
edit : blink....
Pure Blink Stalkers are pretty good in PvZ since Roach DPS is kinda bad against them and Lings aren't very efficient against the clumping and Blink micro of the Stalkers. I've seen many Zergs lose to Blink Stalker pushes, which pretty much look like FFE into turtling into massing Warpgates and getting Blink and ground attack upgrades into hitting a timing attack against Zerg with tons of Blink Stalkers.
However, they're actually very sub-optimal in PvT when unsupported because Marauders hard counter Stalkers so much. You can try to Blink all you want against Marauders, but stimmed Marauders deal out so much DPS that Blinking doesn't matter, and Medivacs help the Marauders tank against the lesser Stalker DPS even more. Plus, any retreating Stalkers caught by Concussive Shells are pretty much guaranteed to die, especially if Blink is on cooldown.
PvP Blink Stalker wars are really cool, however. Much better than Colossus vs Colossus deathballs slamming at each other.
On April 23 2012 23:52 Sawamura wrote: So I take it that stalkers are like dragoons in broodwar . Do protoss player in sc2 mass stalkers and than use bling to out micro huge numbers of units ? I think mass dragoons in bw was viable as stork did use it frequently against terran in broodwar .
The stalker is basically like a really weak version of the dragoon. But since it's the only mid-game gateway unit with aa, protoss are usually forced to mass stalker in all matchups and keep them together in a tight group, informally refered to as the "deathball". It actually makes for some really uninteresting play, and the stalker is the #1 problem with SC2 IMO, but that's a separate discussion I guess.
Blink stalker is mostly used in PvZ to defend against muta harass and in PvP, where both players are usually massing stalkers and blink allows for greater micro.
That being said there are some shannanigens you can do with some blink stalkers all ins in almost every matchup although they seem to be falling out of poularity.
Yeah for a while someone (Nony maybe? I can't remember) had a strat where they used a hallucinated pheonix to blink into Terran's main. But you don't see those things much, Protoss are much more content to FE and turtle like crazy until their deathball is sufficiently large that they don't auto-lose when they leave their base. + Show Spoiler +
this isn't balance whine, it's unit design whine. Game is well balanced, Protoss gateway army just isn't well designed.
On April 23 2012 23:56 kakaman wrote: SC2 is very big on complementary units. It's something I personally find more advanced than BW because "counters" are so key in the game. So there is a certain timing in the game where just mass blink stalkers is viable (or most of PvP), but they are quickly able to be countered because they are glass cannons. You would need to pair it with immortals or zealots, and then ultimately colossus.
I find that weird because I see stalkers with the capability of blink and mobility makes it a very good unit to mass up and as long you can micro with blink you can get a good flank from each corner . Than again I am not sure about sc2 matchup although I would like to see a pure stalkers flank vs MnM .
edit : blink....
Pure Blink Stalkers are pretty good in PvZ since Roach DPS is kinda bad against them and Lings aren't very efficient against the clumping and Blink micro of the Stalkers. I've seen many Zergs lose to Blink Stalker pushes, which pretty much look like FFE into turtling into massing Warpgates and getting Blink and ground attack upgrades into hitting a timing attack against Zerg with tons of Blink Stalkers.
However, they're actually very sub-optimal in PvT when unsupported because Marauders hard counter Stalkers so much. You can try to Blink all you want against Marauders, but stimmed Marauders deal out so much DPS that Blinking doesn't matter, and Medivacs help the Marauders tank against the lesser Stalker DPS even more. Plus, any retreating Stalkers caught by Concussive Shells are pretty much guaranteed to die, especially if Blink is on cooldown.
PvP Blink Stalker wars are really cool, however. Much better than Colossus vs Colossus deathballs slamming at each other.
Pure blink stalkers doesn't work against Z either bc all they need are a few speed lings, then you are trapped after the first blink. Again, composition is more important than actual mechanics. Dragoons wouldn't fair too well in SC2, most maps have really narrow pathways, so the dumb AI would screw you over pretty quickly.
On April 24 2012 00:15 kakaman wrote: Pure blink stalkers doesn't work against Z either bc all they need are a few speed lings, then you are trapped after the first blink. Again, composition is more important than actual mechanics. Dragoons wouldn't fair too well in SC2, most maps have really narrow pathways, so the dumb AI would screw you over pretty quickly.
I think they would be able to give dragoons good pathing in sc2..............................
although dragoons with blink is a scary thought i see the terran qq now.
On April 24 2012 00:15 kakaman wrote: Pure blink stalkers doesn't work against Z either bc all they need are a few speed lings, then you are trapped after the first blink. Again, composition is more important than actual mechanics. Dragoons wouldn't fair too well in SC2, most maps have really narrow pathways, so the dumb AI would screw you over pretty quickly.
But dragoons are quite viable against bio in number's and flanking with proper micro . I believe it can take down anything as long it has it's support unit along with it .
On April 23 2012 23:56 kakaman wrote: SC2 is very big on complementary units. It's something I personally find more advanced than BW because "counters" are so key in the game. So there is a certain timing in the game where just mass blink stalkers is viable (or most of PvP), but they are quickly able to be countered because they are glass cannons. You would need to pair it with immortals or zealots, and then ultimately colossus.
I find that weird because I see stalkers with the capability of blink and mobility makes it a very good unit to mass up and as long you can micro with blink you can get a good flank from each corner . Than again I am not sure about sc2 matchup although I would like to see a pure stalkers flank vs MnM .
edit : blink....
Pure Blink Stalkers are pretty good in PvZ since Roach DPS is kinda bad against them and Lings aren't very efficient against the clumping and Blink micro of the Stalkers. I've seen many Zergs lose to Blink Stalker pushes, which pretty much look like FFE into turtling into massing Warpgates and getting Blink and ground attack upgrades into hitting a timing attack against Zerg with tons of Blink Stalkers.
However, they're actually very sub-optimal in PvT when unsupported because Marauders hard counter Stalkers so much. You can try to Blink all you want against Marauders, but stimmed Marauders deal out so much DPS that Blinking doesn't matter, and Medivacs help the Marauders tank against the lesser Stalker DPS even more. Plus, any retreating Stalkers caught by Concussive Shells are pretty much guaranteed to die, especially if Blink is on cooldown.
PvP Blink Stalker wars are really cool, however. Much better than Colossus vs Colossus deathballs slamming at each other.
I want my dragoons back
Well, I'm pretty sure Dragoons would suck against Marauders as well, even if it's slightly beefier with a slightly better attack. Stimmed Mauraders with Medivac support are just so good against Stalkers and Roaches, but mixing in Zealots and Lings to tank damage do give their respective armies a fighting chance until higher-tech units are mixed in. Plus, I think Blink is almost a necessity with Terrans being able to do drops so easily and Zerg being able to move so fast on Creep.
On April 23 2012 23:56 kakaman wrote: SC2 is very big on complementary units. It's something I personally find more advanced than BW because "counters" are so key in the game. So there is a certain timing in the game where just mass blink stalkers is viable (or most of PvP), but they are quickly able to be countered because they are glass cannons. You would need to pair it with immortals or zealots, and then ultimately colossus.
I find that weird because I see stalkers with the capability of blink and mobility makes it a very good unit to mass up and as long you can micro with blink you can get a good flank from each corner . Than again I am not sure about sc2 matchup although I would like to see a pure stalkers flank vs MnM .
edit : blink....
Pure Blink Stalkers are pretty good in PvZ since Roach DPS is kinda bad against them and Lings aren't very efficient against the clumping and Blink micro of the Stalkers. I've seen many Zergs lose to Blink Stalker pushes, which pretty much look like FFE into turtling into massing Warpgates and getting Blink and ground attack upgrades into hitting a timing attack against Zerg with tons of Blink Stalkers.
However, they're actually very sub-optimal in PvT when unsupported because Marauders hard counter Stalkers so much. You can try to Blink all you want against Marauders, but stimmed Marauders deal out so much DPS that Blinking doesn't matter, and Medivacs help the Marauders tank against the lesser Stalker DPS even more. Plus, any retreating Stalkers caught by Concussive Shells are pretty much guaranteed to die, especially if Blink is on cooldown.
PvP Blink Stalker wars are really cool, however. Much better than Colossus vs Colossus deathballs slamming at each other.
I want my dragoons back
Well, I'm pretty sure Dragoons would suck against Marauders as well, even if it's slightly beefier with a slightly better attack. Stimmed Mauraders with Medivac support are just so good against Stalkers and Roaches, but mixing in Zealots and Lings to tank damage do give their respective armies a fighting chance until higher-tech units are mixed in. Plus, I think Blink is almost a necessity with Terrans being able to do drops so easily and Zerg being able to move so fast on Creep.
I agree only because mmm is so much better than in BW. however, you add in sentries + goons w/range, then it's too imba. I think blizzard made a good choice with using the immortal to equalize the bio army.
On April 24 2012 00:15 kakaman wrote: Pure blink stalkers doesn't work against Z either bc all they need are a few speed lings, then you are trapped after the first blink. Again, composition is more important than actual mechanics. Dragoons wouldn't fair too well in SC2, most maps have really narrow pathways, so the dumb AI would screw you over pretty quickly.
I was more talking about Protoss having a strong mid-game gateway unit that can shoot up. If you compare dragoon stats to stalker stats (not a perfect comparison but work with me) it's pretty clear the dragoon was a lot stronger. We're talking 100/80/1 armor versus 80/80/1 armor and half the attack value of the dragoon. If you move a group out on their own, they die, especially once terran has concussive shell on the Marauder. As I said, I think the game is well balanced, but the design decisions about the stalker is the cause of the deathball.
Clearly the stalker was made a bit weaker to make room for the immortal, but that leaves a big hole in Protoss's aa ability in the early and mid game. Which they've now attempted to band-aid with the pheonix range fix. I'm hoping beyond logic that the whole issue will be reviewed and fixed in HotS, but that remains to be seen. Anyway were a bit off topic, but hopefully Sawa that gives you some idea of the whole issue with the "deathball army".
I think people are under estimating how strong the dragoon is if i remember right i think a dragoon does double the damage a stalker does and is beffier at the same time and costs exactly the same. I think a stalker fires slightly faster but if you put the dragoon where the stalker is know it would last longer in battles and would be doing more damge at the same time.
Ps these are guestimates as i dont have a list of actual dps but the dragoon does have more health and im almost certian that the dps of a dragoon is higher.
On April 24 2012 00:15 kakaman wrote: Pure blink stalkers doesn't work against Z either bc all they need are a few speed lings, then you are trapped after the first blink. Again, composition is more important than actual mechanics. Dragoons wouldn't fair too well in SC2, most maps have really narrow pathways, so the dumb AI would screw you over pretty quickly.
I was more talking about Protoss having a strong mid-game gateway unit that can shoot up. If you compare dragoon stats to stalker stats (not a perfect comparison but work with me) it's pretty clear the dragoon was a lot stronger. We're talking 100/80/1 armor versus 80/80/1 armor and half the attack value of the dragoon. If you move a group out on their own, they die, especially once terran has concussive shell on the Marauder. As I said, I think the game is well balanced, but the design decisions about the stalker is the cause of the deathball.
Clearly the stalker was made a bit weaker to make room for the immortal, but that leaves a big hole in Protoss's aa ability in the early and mid game. Which they've now attempted to band-aid with the pheonix range fix. I'm hoping beyond logic that the whole issue will be reviewed and fixed in HotS, but that remains to be seen. Anyway were a bit off topic, but hopefully Sawa that gives you some idea of the whole issue with the "deathball army".
Well, technically Dragoon attack is 20 explosive while Stalker attack is 10 with bonus +4 against armored, which I guess would translate to 14 explosive damage in BW terms. It's not that big of a difference, and I think Stalkers needed to be slightly weaker than Dragoons to make sure they don't get too powerful with Blink.
Plus, Dragoons without Blink would get completely mauled by Concussive Shell and would easily get chased down by stim, so any disadvantageous engagement with them would be fatal. At least Blink Stalkers are good at pulling away from such disadvantageous engagements.
On April 24 2012 00:15 kakaman wrote: Pure blink stalkers doesn't work against Z either bc all they need are a few speed lings, then you are trapped after the first blink. Again, composition is more important than actual mechanics. Dragoons wouldn't fair too well in SC2, most maps have really narrow pathways, so the dumb AI would screw you over pretty quickly.
I was more talking about Protoss having a strong mid-game gateway unit that can shoot up. If you compare dragoon stats to stalker stats (not a perfect comparison but work with me) it's pretty clear the dragoon was a lot stronger. We're talking 100/80/1 armor versus 80/80/1 armor and half the attack value of the dragoon. If you move a group out on their own, they die, especially once terran has concussive shell on the Marauder. As I said, I think the game is well balanced, but the design decisions about the stalker is the cause of the deathball.
Clearly the stalker was made a bit weaker to make room for the immortal, but that leaves a big hole in Protoss's aa ability in the early and mid game. Which they've now attempted to band-aid with the pheonix range fix. I'm hoping beyond logic that the whole issue will be reviewed and fixed in HotS, but that remains to be seen. Anyway were a bit off topic, but hopefully Sawa that gives you some idea of the whole issue with the "deathball army".
Well, technically Dragoon attack is 20 explosive while Stalker attack is 10 with bonus +4 against armored, which I guess would translate to 14 explosive damage in BW terms. It's not that big of a difference, and I think Stalkers needed to be slightly weaker than Dragoons to make sure they don't get too powerful with Blink.
oh wow i just looked up dragoons in liqupedia and they only have 20 more hp than a stalker. Maybe they are not that much diffrent after all.
On April 24 2012 00:15 kakaman wrote: Pure blink stalkers doesn't work against Z either bc all they need are a few speed lings, then you are trapped after the first blink. Again, composition is more important than actual mechanics. Dragoons wouldn't fair too well in SC2, most maps have really narrow pathways, so the dumb AI would screw you over pretty quickly.
I was more talking about Protoss having a strong mid-game gateway unit that can shoot up. If you compare dragoon stats to stalker stats (not a perfect comparison but work with me) it's pretty clear the dragoon was a lot stronger. We're talking 100/80/1 armor versus 80/80/1 armor and half the attack value of the dragoon. If you move a group out on their own, they die, especially once terran has concussive shell on the Marauder. As I said, I think the game is well balanced, but the design decisions about the stalker is the cause of the deathball.
Clearly the stalker was made a bit weaker to make room for the immortal, but that leaves a big hole in Protoss's aa ability in the early and mid game. Which they've now attempted to band-aid with the pheonix range fix. I'm hoping beyond logic that the whole issue will be reviewed and fixed in HotS, but that remains to be seen. Anyway were a bit off topic, but hopefully Sawa that gives you some idea of the whole issue with the "deathball army".
Well, technically Dragoon attack is 20 explosive while Stalker attack is 10 with bonus +4 against armored, which I guess would translate to 14 explosive damage in BW terms. It's not that big of a difference, and I think Stalkers needed to be slightly weaker than Dragoons to make sure they don't get too powerful with Blink.
You're probably right. Well balanced, but not well designed.
On April 24 2012 00:15 kakaman wrote: Pure blink stalkers doesn't work against Z either bc all they need are a few speed lings, then you are trapped after the first blink. Again, composition is more important than actual mechanics. Dragoons wouldn't fair too well in SC2, most maps have really narrow pathways, so the dumb AI would screw you over pretty quickly.
I was more talking about Protoss having a strong mid-game gateway unit that can shoot up. If you compare dragoon stats to stalker stats (not a perfect comparison but work with me) it's pretty clear the dragoon was a lot stronger. We're talking 100/80/1 armor versus 80/80/1 armor and half the attack value of the dragoon. If you move a group out on their own, they die, especially once terran has concussive shell on the Marauder. As I said, I think the game is well balanced, but the design decisions about the stalker is the cause of the deathball.
Clearly the stalker was made a bit weaker to make room for the immortal, but that leaves a big hole in Protoss's aa ability in the early and mid game. Which they've now attempted to band-aid with the pheonix range fix. I'm hoping beyond logic that the whole issue will be reviewed and fixed in HotS, but that remains to be seen. Anyway were a bit off topic, but hopefully Sawa that gives you some idea of the whole issue with the "deathball army".
To be fair, P doesn't really need the AA. Maybe against muta, but that has been slowly phased out, and not due to the new phoenix upgrade. A few well placed cannons + warp in usually does the trick.
Just watch a few games. I periodically (every few months) watch a few games to decide if it is any good. If you understand Brood War on any genuine strategic level, you will be able to follow SC2 because SC2 is just that but way, way simpler.
I know there are a lot of BW players who only understand the mechanics and built in reactions side of the game, which is a shame because they miss out on BW's true strength of being able to combine mechanics with real strategy, the kind of stuff talked about in the Sun Tzu's Art of War and beyond.
On April 23 2012 23:52 Sawamura wrote: So I take it that stalkers are like dragoons in broodwar . Do protoss player in sc2 mass stalkers and than use bling to out micro huge numbers of units ? I think mass dragoons in bw was viable as stork did use it frequently against terran in broodwar .
Well thats the beauty of BW you can extract so much utility out of useless units like goons and mutas. Just gotta micro.
On April 24 2012 00:40 Chef wrote: Just watch a few games. I periodically (every few months) watch a few games to decide if it is any good. If you understand Brood War on any genuine strategic level, you will be able to follow SC2 because SC2 is just that but way, way simpler.
I know there are a lot of BW players who only understand the mechanics and built in reactions side of the game, which is a shame because they miss out on BW's true strength of being able to combine mechanics with real strategy, the kind of stuff talked about in the Sun Tzu's Art of War and beyond.
On April 23 2012 23:33 TheToast wrote: Honestly, I think one could write volumes on what separates BW from SC2 as a spectator sport. (I'm sure you could write 20 pages yourself )
As far as strategy is concerned, there are a few key differences to watch out for:
Zerg The Zerg play fairly similar to BW actually. The biggest differences in game play come from the Queen, which deals with both larva inject and creep spread and also provides the only early game air defense zerg has, so is key in a ZvT when terran can rush to banshee, also useful in defending against Hellion (vulture) harass. Inject Larva is a timed spell that basically adds extra larva to a hatchery, replacing the use of that early third macro hatch; you can imagine the importantce of this. Queen also lays creep tumors, which are sort of like creep colonies that can spawn more of themselves. Creep spread is actually pretty important as not only does it provide vision like in BW, but also gives a speed bonus to ground forces. Important because the hydralisk is stupid slow and and there's no speed upgrade.
In a TvZ baneling micro can be pretty damn important too, as Marine/Marauder/Medivac can actually be pretty deadly in the mid game.
SC2 lings aren't worth shit compared to BW lings
you forgot that part
Actually I'm pretty sure they have the exact same stats. Just aren't very useful in the early game against Terran due to hellion and marauder. I'm no expert on ZvP (seriously, my PvZ has always been laughably bad) but I would say zerglings have some use for the early game. Either way, I think the queen is probably the most major differences between the two games as far as the early and mid games are concerned. Banelings are important, but essentially fill the same role as the lurker.
I don't think so. In BW for example if 6 lings were in your mineral lines, it was much scarier then it is now. You couldn't hold it with 12 drones and not lose most if not all of them.
Marines are also much better vs lings in sc2 then bw, that is why they aren't useful early game is marine stutter micro, then hellions are out by the time speed has finished for them. zvp zealots are very good vs zerglings, especially if the zealots don't get surrounded and the lings dont' have speed yet.
On April 23 2012 23:33 FlyingToilet wrote: I think blizzards starting to lean gameplay torward the way brood war matchups used to be played, for instance pvt atm is completely volatile it isn't really skill based it is 2 base a moves, and terrans want mech atm, if you go mech in pvt you usually just get countered and rolled and that's all there really is to it. The sc2 community and blizzard is actually trying to give the gameplay the community want's and there's always that 1 game that lasts about an hour but it's extremely rare, usually all of the sc2 tournaments are analyzing your opponent and reacting to what he's doing, like an all-in to kill a greedy build is typically the usual thing you will see in sc2 proleagues.
I watched the 1st match and I must say, what an absurd game. I haven't watched sc2 since like the first GSL and at least that was somewhat more interesting with silly cheese left and right. This was literally Game start 1. 0 harass, 0 micro 2. both players max supply 3. sit around for 10 minutes 4. finally MVP decides to somewhat harass 5. terrible (basically no) response, gg also had some great 1a attacks from Nestea with nonsense unit combos. Has no anti-air in a 30minute long game, makes 20 broodlords, a-move. Dies to like 10 vikings. I know MVP and Nestea aren't exactly the cream of the crop but I think they play worse in sc2 than BW. I'm scared to watch the other matches now.
EDIT: Actually I watched the other videos. The IPL top plays... + Show Spoiler +
5. fails to zealot wall 4. a-moves banelings? 3. He used stop-lurkers. 2. Mass infested terran was pretty cute 1. I'm not even sure what was supposed to be the "play" here.
This is why I can't support sc2. Out of every single top game or top plays I've ever seen, I've never seen anything that I can't do with zero to minimal effort. Sure I can't do everything simultaneously but if I wanted to watch godlike multitask, I would watch BW.
Xenocide_Knight: Arguments like that bother me. "Nothing I can't do with zero to minimal effort" is pure bullshit. Can you split a large amount of marines against speed-banelings (I believe you will find that this is hard to do), or can you dodge psi storms like MKP in his GSTL game vs. PartinG? Can you pick up colossi to save them and drop them off to make another shot, before picking them up again - in the middle of a big fight? Those are feats of (relatively) high-level micro, and if you claim you can repeat any of those, I'd like you to show that. In fact, you could probably make a lot of money in SCII if you could. And I still don't get why people expect SC2 progamers to be as good at SC2 as BW pros are at BW. Strategies have had a decade to develop, and the correct way of doing most things has been figured out. BW has had years and years of fine-tuning, while SC2 has not. BW might be the more complex game, and it might, in the end, be the "better" game - but oversimplifying SC2 and claiming that anything progamers can do in the game is easily doable on an off night when you've had a few beers is stupid.
On April 24 2012 06:56 Zealously wrote: Xenocide_Knight: Arguments like that bother me. "Nothing I can't do with zero to minimal effort" is pure bullshit. Can you split a large amount of marines against speed-banelings (I believe you will find that this is hard to do), or can you dodge psi storms like MKP in his GSTL game vs. PartinG? Can you pick up colossi to save them and drop them off to make another shot, before picking them up again - in the middle of a big fight? Those are feats of (relatively) high-level micro, and if you claim you can repeat any of those, I'd like you to show that. In fact, you could probably make a lot of money in SCII if you could. And I still don't get why people expect SC2 progamers to be as good at SC2 as BW pros are at BW. Strategies have had a decade to develop, and the correct way of doing most things has been figured out. BW has had years and years of fine-tuning, while SC2 has not. BW might be the more complex game, and it might, in the end, be the "better" game - but oversimplifying SC2 and claiming that anything progamers can do in the game is easily doable on an off night when you've had a few beers is stupid.
Have you ever even witnessed reaver micro?
Guarantee you that was 100x harder than colossus shuttle micro (some hyperbole, but you get it)
On April 24 2012 06:56 Zealously wrote: Xenocide_Knight: Arguments like that bother me. "Nothing I can't do with zero to minimal effort" is pure bullshit. Can you split a large amount of marines against speed-banelings (I believe you will find that this is hard to do), or can you dodge psi storms like MKP in his GSTL game vs. PartinG? Can you pick up colossi to save them and drop them off to make another shot, before picking them up again - in the middle of a big fight? Those are feats of (relatively) high-level micro, and if you claim you can repeat any of those, I'd like you to show that. In fact, you could probably make a lot of money in SCII if you could. And I still don't get why people expect SC2 progamers to be as good at SC2 as BW pros are at BW. Strategies have had a decade to develop, and the correct way of doing most things has been figured out. BW has had years and years of fine-tuning, while SC2 has not. BW might be the more complex game, and it might, in the end, be the "better" game - but oversimplifying SC2 and claiming that anything progamers can do in the game is easily doable on an off night when you've had a few beers is stupid.
Guarantee you that was 100x harder than colossus shuttle micro (some hyperbole, but you get it)
For once I am going to have to side with the BW elitists. BW did have a much higher skill requirement in terms of micro mechanics. Doesn't mean it's necessarily a better game to spectate, just requires a different skill set. Then again WC3 had an even higher micro skill ceiling than BW, but then different games are different. *zing*
Jaedong vs. Flash will no doubt be the sickest SC2 games we will see. I personally feel ZvT is the closest to bw play style, for now at least. Tons of little skirmishes, drops, counter attacks, some good big engagements, very very fun match up in my opinion, and well played PvZ with the use of warp in everywhere and warp prisms and what not.
On April 24 2012 00:15 kakaman wrote: Pure blink stalkers doesn't work against Z either bc all they need are a few speed lings, then you are trapped after the first blink. Again, composition is more important than actual mechanics. Dragoons wouldn't fair too well in SC2, most maps have really narrow pathways, so the dumb AI would screw you over pretty quickly.
I was more talking about Protoss having a strong mid-game gateway unit that can shoot up. If you compare dragoon stats to stalker stats (not a perfect comparison but work with me) it's pretty clear the dragoon was a lot stronger. We're talking 100/80/1 armor versus 80/80/1 armor and half the attack value of the dragoon. If you move a group out on their own, they die, especially once terran has concussive shell on the Marauder. As I said, I think the game is well balanced, but the design decisions about the stalker is the cause of the deathball.
Clearly the stalker was made a bit weaker to make room for the immortal, but that leaves a big hole in Protoss's aa ability in the early and mid game. Which they've now attempted to band-aid with the pheonix range fix. I'm hoping beyond logic that the whole issue will be reviewed and fixed in HotS, but that remains to be seen. Anyway were a bit off topic, but hopefully Sawa that gives you some idea of the whole issue with the "deathball army".
stalker is more than good enough AA for just about anything.. blink stalkers are even effective against broodlords with infestor support to an extent. pheonix upgrade was worthless to begin with as the meta had already moved to get blink stalkers to stop muta harass with cannon / tempar support after mass muta was all the rage. I've seen the upgrade like two or three times total in pro games.
hmm okay so what to look for in games?
TvZ currently one of the more enjoyable matches to watch. Korean Ts love to open hellion expand since its fairly safe barring a roach bust (which you can always scout for and see coming) Zerg usually play the defensive early on but some Z like to throw in ling run bys. Baneling land mines are enjoyable to see happen occasionally. You will note alot of top T will scan in front of their army looking for land mines pretty regularly. Zerg tend to go one of two styles: 1) muta/ling/baneling which is the more traditional style back before infestor buffs but is starting to re-emerge because muta harass is so effective. the other strat tends to be some sort of mix of roaches/lings into infestors then into a late game broodlord switch. This is a more defensive strat But it is very effective mid-late game and is good at stopping early pushes from the T.
Some of the more amazing things to watch is marine splitting against banes.. its a treat to watch and one of the reasons i have some faith in sc2 having potential not all of the video is amazing but these types of splits are common in the high lvl of sc2 now.
TvP honestly i only find a few games of TvP enjoyable to watch b/c only high level play has been getting to the point where it isnt a boring deathball build some that come to mind is MKP vs Parting (watch GSTL finals.. amazing game, game 4 i think?) This mostly revolves around T massing up MnM with either ghost or viking support depending on what the P is going (though later T will need both when protoss has a real deathball of gateway/collosi/templar)
ZvP This match up is sort of wonky atm.. essentially its really hard to get a 3rd base up as a protoss vs a zerg because 12min max on roaches is something any top Z can do these days so usually its some sort of 2 base all-in by the protoss or at least some sort of heavy harass strat that will keep the zerg from building an overpowering force and walk over you.
micro generally can be pretty awesome if you are looking for it in sc2
On April 24 2012 06:56 Zealously wrote: Xenocide_Knight: Arguments like that bother me. "Nothing I can't do with zero to minimal effort" is pure bullshit. Can you split a large amount of marines against speed-banelings (I believe you will find that this is hard to do), or can you dodge psi storms like MKP in his GSTL game vs. PartinG? Can you pick up colossi to save them and drop them off to make another shot, before picking them up again - in the middle of a big fight? Those are feats of (relatively) high-level micro, and if you claim you can repeat any of those, I'd like you to show that. In fact, you could probably make a lot of money in SCII if you could. And I still don't get why people expect SC2 progamers to be as good at SC2 as BW pros are at BW. Strategies have had a decade to develop, and the correct way of doing most things has been figured out. BW has had years and years of fine-tuning, while SC2 has not. BW might be the more complex game, and it might, in the end, be the "better" game - but oversimplifying SC2 and claiming that anything progamers can do in the game is easily doable on an off night when you've had a few beers is stupid.
Guarantee you that was 100x harder than colossus shuttle micro (some hyperbole, but you get it)
100x harder is pushing it, there is some skill required to using micro on warp prisms (and medivacs / ovies for that matter) you basically keep the warp prism moving as well as microing the unit(s) you are dropping at the same time.. if anything they are likely around the same skill requirement unless you want to enlighten me.
On April 24 2012 06:56 Zealously wrote: Xenocide_Knight: Arguments like that bother me. "Nothing I can't do with zero to minimal effort" is pure bullshit. Can you split a large amount of marines against speed-banelings (I believe you will find that this is hard to do), or can you dodge psi storms like MKP in his GSTL game vs. PartinG? Can you pick up colossi to save them and drop them off to make another shot, before picking them up again - in the middle of a big fight? Those are feats of (relatively) high-level micro, and if you claim you can repeat any of those, I'd like you to show that. In fact, you could probably make a lot of money in SCII if you could. And I still don't get why people expect SC2 progamers to be as good at SC2 as BW pros are at BW. Strategies have had a decade to develop, and the correct way of doing most things has been figured out. BW has had years and years of fine-tuning, while SC2 has not. BW might be the more complex game, and it might, in the end, be the "better" game - but oversimplifying SC2 and claiming that anything progamers can do in the game is easily doable on an off night when you've had a few beers is stupid.
Guarantee you that was 100x harder than colossus shuttle micro (some hyperbole, but you get it)
100x harder is pushing it, there is some skill required to using micro on warp prisms (and medivacs / ovies for that matter) you basically keep the warp prism moving as well as microing the unit(s) you are dropping at the same time.. if anything they are likely around the same skill requirement unless you want to enlighten me.
100x was an exaggeration; I stated that it was hyperbole. But it is definitely harder.
In regards to your question, it seems to me that shuttle/prism micro is relatively the same, it's just the units (Reaver, Colossus) and overall mechanics of each game that are different. Reaver micro while macroing back at your base in inherently harder in BW than in sc2 because of MBS and auto-mine.
The AI for the reaver also isn't the greatest so occasionally you will get dud scarabs or it won't fire properly. Dropping a reaver, producing scarabs, targeting something, picking up, repeating, all the while actually having to move your screen away from the battle occasionally is much harder than dropping the colo, pretty much just letting it a-move since it's attack is AOE anyways, then picking it up again. All without having to look back at your base.
On April 24 2012 06:56 Zealously wrote: Xenocide_Knight: Arguments like that bother me. "Nothing I can't do with zero to minimal effort" is pure bullshit. Can you split a large amount of marines against speed-banelings (I believe you will find that this is hard to do), or can you dodge psi storms like MKP in his GSTL game vs. PartinG? Can you pick up colossi to save them and drop them off to make another shot, before picking them up again - in the middle of a big fight? Those are feats of (relatively) high-level micro, and if you claim you can repeat any of those, I'd like you to show that. In fact, you could probably make a lot of money in SCII if you could. And I still don't get why people expect SC2 progamers to be as good at SC2 as BW pros are at BW. Strategies have had a decade to develop, and the correct way of doing most things has been figured out. BW has had years and years of fine-tuning, while SC2 has not. BW might be the more complex game, and it might, in the end, be the "better" game - but oversimplifying SC2 and claiming that anything progamers can do in the game is easily doable on an off night when you've had a few beers is stupid.
Guarantee you that was 100x harder than colossus shuttle micro (some hyperbole, but you get it)
100x harder is pushing it, there is some skill required to using micro on warp prisms (and medivacs / ovies for that matter) you basically keep the warp prism moving as well as microing the unit(s) you are dropping at the same time.. if anything they are likely around the same skill requirement unless you want to enlighten me.
100x was an exaggeration; I stated that it was hyperbole. But it is definitely harder.
In regards to your question, it seems to me that shuttle/prism micro is relatively the same, it's just the units (Reaver, Colossus) and overall mechanics of each game that are different. Reaver micro while macroing back at your base in inherently harder in BW than in sc2 because of MBS and auto-mine.
The AI for the reaver also isn't the greatest so occasionally you will get dud scarabs or it won't fire properly. Dropping a reaver, producing scarabs, targeting something, picking up, repeating, all the while actually having to move your screen away from the battle occasionally is much harder than dropping the colo, pretty much just letting it a-move since it's attack is AOE anyways, then picking it up again. All without having to look back at your base.
woah woah hold up, you were arguing about the micro not that macro, you can't back off of that. My entire point was the micro is equivolent sure macro in general is harder in BW but so what? thats been beaten to death a million times over.
On April 23 2012 23:33 FlyingToilet wrote: I think blizzards starting to lean gameplay torward the way brood war matchups used to be played, for instance pvt atm is completely volatile it isn't really skill based it is 2 base a moves, and terrans want mech atm, if you go mech in pvt you usually just get countered and rolled and that's all there really is to it. The sc2 community and blizzard is actually trying to give the gameplay the community want's and there's always that 1 game that lasts about an hour but it's extremely rare, usually all of the sc2 tournaments are analyzing your opponent and reacting to what he's doing, like an all-in to kill a greedy build is typically the usual thing you will see in sc2 proleagues.
I watched the 1st match and I must say, what an absurd game. I haven't watched sc2 since like the first GSL and at least that was somewhat more interesting with silly cheese left and right. This was literally Game start 1. 0 harass, 0 micro 2. both players max supply 3. sit around for 10 minutes 4. finally MVP decides to somewhat harass 5. terrible (basically no) response, gg also had some great 1a attacks from Nestea with nonsense unit combos. Has no anti-air in a 30minute long game, makes 20 broodlords, a-move. Dies to like 10 vikings. I know MVP and Nestea aren't exactly the cream of the crop but I think they play worse in sc2 than BW. I'm scared to watch the other matches now.
EDIT: Actually I watched the other videos. The IPL top plays... + Show Spoiler +
5. fails to zealot wall 4. a-moves banelings? 3. He used stop-lurkers. 2. Mass infested terran was pretty cute 1. I'm not even sure what was supposed to be the "play" here.
This is why I can't support sc2. Out of every single top game or top plays I've ever seen, I've never seen anything that I can't do with zero to minimal effort. Sure I can't do everything simultaneously but if I wanted to watch godlike multitask, I would watch BW.
I don't know what this guy is smoking (the one who posted the links) but these are certainly all meh games in my book. If you want better games just look for recent games of players like MKP, Parting or DRG.
On April 24 2012 06:56 Zealously wrote: Xenocide_Knight: Arguments like that bother me. "Nothing I can't do with zero to minimal effort" is pure bullshit. Can you split a large amount of marines against speed-banelings (I believe you will find that this is hard to do), or can you dodge psi storms like MKP in his GSTL game vs. PartinG? Can you pick up colossi to save them and drop them off to make another shot, before picking them up again - in the middle of a big fight? Those are feats of (relatively) high-level micro, and if you claim you can repeat any of those, I'd like you to show that. In fact, you could probably make a lot of money in SCII if you could. And I still don't get why people expect SC2 progamers to be as good at SC2 as BW pros are at BW. Strategies have had a decade to develop, and the correct way of doing most things has been figured out. BW has had years and years of fine-tuning, while SC2 has not. BW might be the more complex game, and it might, in the end, be the "better" game - but oversimplifying SC2 and claiming that anything progamers can do in the game is easily doable on an off night when you've had a few beers is stupid.
Guarantee you that was 100x harder than colossus shuttle micro (some hyperbole, but you get it)
100x harder is pushing it, there is some skill required to using micro on warp prisms (and medivacs / ovies for that matter) you basically keep the warp prism moving as well as microing the unit(s) you are dropping at the same time.. if anything they are likely around the same skill requirement unless you want to enlighten me.
100x was an exaggeration; I stated that it was hyperbole. But it is definitely harder.
In regards to your question, it seems to me that shuttle/prism micro is relatively the same, it's just the units (Reaver, Colossus) and overall mechanics of each game that are different. Reaver micro while macroing back at your base in inherently harder in BW than in sc2 because of MBS and auto-mine.
The AI for the reaver also isn't the greatest so occasionally you will get dud scarabs or it won't fire properly. Dropping a reaver, producing scarabs, targeting something, picking up, repeating, all the while actually having to move your screen away from the battle occasionally is much harder than dropping the colo, pretty much just letting it a-move since it's attack is AOE anyways, then picking it up again. All without having to look back at your base.
woah woah hold up, you were arguing about the micro not that macro, you can't back off of that. My entire point was the micro is equivolent sure macro in general is harder in BW but so what? thats been beaten to death a million times over.
I was simply stating that when you factor in the entirety of a real game, that obviously macro does come into play since micro/macro hold a delicate balance with each other (at least in BW).
And even disregarding that fact, reaver/shuttle micro is still harder than colo/prism micro because the colossus is much easier to use. It doesn't need weapon/ammo to be made, it has pretty damn long range iirc, and the AI in sc2 is pretty good so you don't have to target anything with it, you can just a-move it towards the enemy units and it would do fine.
I'm not saying colo/prism micro takes no skill, but reaver drop micro is definitely harder to pull of. Especially since it's a integral part of Protoss harassment, where as colo drops, correct me if I am wrong, just sounds like some fancy unit control rather than a legitimate strategy you'd use over actual harassment options.
I'm really not for forum disputes/arguments such as this, especially when it pertains to BW vs SC2, so I'll just leave it at that and won't pursue the subject any further.
On April 23 2012 23:33 FlyingToilet wrote: I think blizzards starting to lean gameplay torward the way brood war matchups used to be played, for instance pvt atm is completely volatile it isn't really skill based it is 2 base a moves, and terrans want mech atm, if you go mech in pvt you usually just get countered and rolled and that's all there really is to it. The sc2 community and blizzard is actually trying to give the gameplay the community want's and there's always that 1 game that lasts about an hour but it's extremely rare, usually all of the sc2 tournaments are analyzing your opponent and reacting to what he's doing, like an all-in to kill a greedy build is typically the usual thing you will see in sc2 proleagues.
I watched the 1st match and I must say, what an absurd game. I haven't watched sc2 since like the first GSL and at least that was somewhat more interesting with silly cheese left and right. This was literally Game start 1. 0 harass, 0 micro 2. both players max supply 3. sit around for 10 minutes 4. finally MVP decides to somewhat harass 5. terrible (basically no) response, gg also had some great 1a attacks from Nestea with nonsense unit combos. Has no anti-air in a 30minute long game, makes 20 broodlords, a-move. Dies to like 10 vikings. I know MVP and Nestea aren't exactly the cream of the crop but I think they play worse in sc2 than BW. I'm scared to watch the other matches now.
EDIT: Actually I watched the other videos. The IPL top plays... + Show Spoiler +
5. fails to zealot wall 4. a-moves banelings? 3. He used stop-lurkers. 2. Mass infested terran was pretty cute 1. I'm not even sure what was supposed to be the "play" here.
This is why I can't support sc2. Out of every single top game or top plays I've ever seen, I've never seen anything that I can't do with zero to minimal effort. Sure I can't do everything simultaneously but if I wanted to watch godlike multitask, I would watch BW.
I don't know what this guy is smoking (the one who posted the links) but these are certainly all meh games in my book. If you want better games just look for recent games of players like MKP, Parting or DRG.
I have to agree. Boxer vs Rain had cool engagements but was otherwise a long, boring turtle fest. Same thing with MVP vs Nestea. I think the IPL top plays montages are pretty neat, but not that impressive compared to the stuff I see in BW.
When it comes to TvP, the stereotype of "turtle to 200/200 deathballs and smash into each other" is slowly being changed by some more aggressive styles being displayed in some games. Specifically, Protoss going for Templar instead of Colossus makes the game so much more skill-based and entertaining, as Storms are very much a skill-based spell and you have the delicate dance between Templar and Ghosts.
If you can somehow watch the first MKP vs Parting game from the GSTL finals (before the disconnect), then I would definitely recommend that game as a good example of a fantastic TvP (minus the regame drama). MKP's MMM splits in that game were absolutely breathtaking, and both players played an aggressive back-and-forth match that had near constant action.
However, I'm sure that vod is behind a pay-wall, though it's actually kinda easy to acquire anything illegally but that makes esports very sad. If you can't watch that match, I think game 1 of Polt vs Parting from GSL is a very similar game, minus MKP's epic MMM splits. Game 1 of MC vs Virus also is somewhat similar, though IMO less impressive of a game.
edit: Actually, I found a Chinese cast of the games.
First game at 1h 5m. Regame at 49m.
Hmmm, perhaps I remembered more epic storm dodges in game 1 than there actually were. The regame has a nice storm dodge in the middle of it. But if you like Terran winning, the regame is for you. If you like Protoss almost winning (minus the disconnect), then the first game is a good game.
And predictably, Sawa's blog turns into the latest battlefield in the ongoing BW versus SC2 debate lol...
Maybe this new Proleague format won't be so bad after all. Maybe it can at least force the two communities together, force each side to watch some extremely high level matches of the other game. Or it will just create the single worst LR thread in the history of the internet. Should be fun either way hahaha.
if you are looking for a good example of how protoss vs terran is you should look for games of parting (protoss) when he plays against terrans
and games of MKP the best terran right now
Parting is kida impresive because she "patrols" the map with HTs, yep he uses them to gain map control and storm some terran units (its not always possible but, when he can, he do it) and as artosis said he literal flanks entire armies with just Ht.
Personaly i think colossus should be reoved from the game and the stalker should be twiked, protoss is the more "deathball" race, zerg and terrans are playing more differents styles but protoss... its like they said you cant go with a grup of stalker becuase although they are fast and have blink... the have very low dps and are glass cannons.
Thats why i love parting style so much, and the best thing is that its becoming standar.
the ussual PvT is mass zelot, some stalkers, some sentries and colossi, when the terran have vikings switch to templar, and when the terran makes ghost you just micro and ry to feedback the ghost and not be EMPed and trying to mantain the colossus alive.
On April 24 2012 06:56 Zealously wrote: Xenocide_Knight: Arguments like that bother me. "Nothing I can't do with zero to minimal effort" is pure bullshit. Can you split a large amount of marines against speed-banelings (I believe you will find that this is hard to do), or can you dodge psi storms like MKP in his GSTL game vs. PartinG? Can you pick up colossi to save them and drop them off to make another shot, before picking them up again - in the middle of a big fight? Those are feats of (relatively) high-level micro, and if you claim you can repeat any of those, I'd like you to show that. In fact, you could probably make a lot of money in SCII if you could. And I still don't get why people expect SC2 progamers to be as good at SC2 as BW pros are at BW. Strategies have had a decade to develop, and the correct way of doing most things has been figured out. BW has had years and years of fine-tuning, while SC2 has not. BW might be the more complex game, and it might, in the end, be the "better" game - but oversimplifying SC2 and claiming that anything progamers can do in the game is easily doable on an off night when you've had a few beers is stupid.
Response that probably serves no purpose but replies to Zealously's assumptions + Show Spoiler +
While there were no examples of marine vs baneling in any of the videos I mentioned or watched, I actually have seen the zenix(?) vs MKP game with marine splits. And yes, I can do everything that was shown in that game or the highlight videos. If that's the only thing you are focusing on, it's not very hard. People do much harder feats of mechanical skill on a daily basis.
I haven't really played sc2 (with any intent of seriousness or getting better anyway) since the beta but if you want, I will show you similar things I can do in BW that are more difficult. Marine split vs lurkers (I'm awful at this but I have done it in the past. Not a Terran player at all though), Hydras dodging storms, and reaver micro. I have no idea what the current skill level on the current sc2 ladder is but from reading Gheed's blogs, it seems comically low. But then again, I see people link me to videos of blink stalkers kiting marines and claiming it as "high level micro". That's not micro, that's mandatory, even at D level in BW.
Believe me, I don't expect SC2 progamers to be on the level of BW pros. The SC2 progamers were awful. MVP was a lamb to the slaughter most of his career and Iron, Claire, ZergBong, etc were all jokes. Boxer Nada and July were playing god awful and all they did was sell out for money switching over to sc2. I was merely remarking my surprise that they are STILL playing awful, even as the best sc2 players. I would have thought they would have somewhat improved. Maybe sc2 just makes everyone look noob though.
I will continue to keep my eyes and ears open for an example of high level play in sc2 that is comparable to something beyond your average foreigner BW match. Actually nvm. This video that sc14s linked was pretty impressive. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdSKD3LRHV8&feature=related Except still, some of the clips... Stalkers vs marines really? Hellions vs lings? You might as well link every single PvP, PvT, or TvZ ever played then. Maybe there is hope for sc2. I will, as always, await the day sc2 becomes something more than amateur RTS tournaments without cannibalizing BW's players and infrastructure.
EDIT: I just want to point out, I don't mean to sound angry or offensive. I'm just bothered that people seem to constantly forget that the people who hate on sc2 are usually the ones who pre-ordered the game asap, counted down hours until the beta client was available, downloaded it even before they had a beta key just to look at the download screen, lined up for the release, did an all night run of the campaign starting from midnight when it was out, laddered daily for hours, etc etc. Back before diamond league, I was #1 plat in my division. When diamond league was released, I was #1 diamond. My friend and I spent our summer getting to #1 diamond in 2v2. But at the end of all that, my friends and I looked at each other and all said the same thing. "What a disappointment."
On April 24 2012 06:56 Zealously wrote: Xenocide_Knight: Arguments like that bother me. "Nothing I can't do with zero to minimal effort" is pure bullshit. Can you split a large amount of marines against speed-banelings (I believe you will find that this is hard to do), or can you dodge psi storms like MKP in his GSTL game vs. PartinG? Can you pick up colossi to save them and drop them off to make another shot, before picking them up again - in the middle of a big fight? Those are feats of (relatively) high-level micro, and if you claim you can repeat any of those, I'd like you to show that. In fact, you could probably make a lot of money in SCII if you could. And I still don't get why people expect SC2 progamers to be as good at SC2 as BW pros are at BW. Strategies have had a decade to develop, and the correct way of doing most things has been figured out. BW has had years and years of fine-tuning, while SC2 has not. BW might be the more complex game, and it might, in the end, be the "better" game - but oversimplifying SC2 and claiming that anything progamers can do in the game is easily doable on an off night when you've had a few beers is stupid.
Response that probably serves no purpose but replies to Zealously's assumptions + Show Spoiler +
While there were no examples of marine vs baneling in any of the videos I mentioned or watched, I actually have seen the zenix(?) vs MKP game with marine splits. And yes, I can do everything that was shown in that game or the highlight videos. If that's the only thing you are focusing on, it's not very hard. People do much harder feats of mechanical skill on a daily basis.
I haven't really played sc2 (with any intent of seriousness or getting better anyway) since the beta but if you want, I will show you similar things I can do in BW that are more difficult. Marine split vs lurkers (I'm awful at this but I have done it in the past. Not a Terran player at all though), Hydras dodging storms, and reaver micro. I have no idea what the current skill level on the current sc2 ladder is but from reading Gheed's blogs, it seems comically low. But then again, I see people link me to videos of blink stalkers kiting marines and claiming it as "high level micro". That's not micro, that's mandatory, even at D level in BW.
Believe me, I don't expect SC2 progamers to be on the level of BW pros. The SC2 progamers were awful. MVP was a lamb to the slaughter most of his career and Iron, Claire, ZergBong, etc were all jokes. Boxer Nada and July were playing god awful and all they did was sell out for money switching over to sc2. I was merely remarking my surprise that they are STILL playing awful, even as the best sc2 players. I would have thought they would have somewhat improved. Maybe sc2 just makes everyone look noob though.
I will continue to keep my eyes and ears open for an example of high level play in sc2 that is comparable to something beyond your average foreigner BW match. Actually nvm. This video that sc14s linked was pretty impressive. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdSKD3LRHV8&feature=related Except still, some of the clips... Stalkers vs marines really? Hellions vs lings? You might as well link every single PvP, PvT, or TvZ ever played then. Maybe there is hope for sc2. I will, as always, await the day sc2 becomes something more than amateur RTS tournaments without cannibalizing BW's players and infrastructure.
EDIT: I just want to point out, I don't mean to sound angry or offensive. I'm just bothered that people seem to constantly forget that the people who hate on sc2 are usually the ones who pre-ordered the game asap, counted down hours until the beta client was available, downloaded it even before they had a beta key just to look at the download screen, lined up for the release, did an all night run of the campaign starting from midnight when it was out, laddered daily for hours, etc etc. Back before diamond league, I was #1 plat in my division. When diamond league was released, I was #1 diamond. My friend and I spent our summer getting to #1 diamond in 2v2. But at the end of all that, my friends and I looked at each other and all said the same thing. "What a disappointment."
I think to benchmark the current sc2 ladder skill from gheeds blog pretty much illogical because he find's it fun to bully bronze players who are actually at the equivalent of E- on iccup . I can't believe he find a sense of pride in bullying those low level players with worker rushes . I want to see how gheed worker rushes me in broodwar I will make him regret it that's for sure . I have watch most of the IPL highlight one thing's that for sure Bio for terran has become ridiculously strong to the point it is use in every matchup.
Also the only fun part I like about the hidden banelings that is when it pops up under a unaware MnM ball and than seeing it melts almost remembers me of lurkers . But lurkers is 100x better than baneling bombs .. At least they do not die after unleashing it's payload . Also I think players has improved remarkably in sc2 ladder since the competition got a little tighter compared to the days when it is in beta . I also was one of those guys who were begging for a beta key for sc2 and yet ... I was furious that the game isn't really that microable as it did in bw .
Unit counters is a much more realistic factor in sc2 than bw I guess because in bw we actually could use the standard units as soft counter rather than relying solely on a specific unit to hard counter the opponents play style . Dragoons and Marine comes to my mind when I talk about this . Overall I like the fact that this maybe is a chance to show the bw crowd and the sc2 crowd how different the game is when most of the ignorant players refuse to watch bw because they find the graphics outdated .
Also I thought that mbs would have made the game much more faster pace since Macro is out of the question when mbs allows you to macro out of buildings under one single hotkey . I was expecting the game to be micro oriented and harassment base which in then could lead to more guerrilla tactics and skirmishes over all the map but the nonetheless it isn't that much appears to be on sc2 besides your usual medivac drop and than expo under it's attack.
Most of my thoughts of sc2 are basically not directed to any of your quotes but I do understand the disappointment of the game but than I wonder if blizzard actually made sc2 an updated version of broodwar with updated graphics will we be griping over sc2 right now ?
EPT
)
not all of the video is amazing but these types of splits are common in the high lvl of sc2 now.
