So we know this format is going to be used in the next proleague season . As a BW fan I never pay attention to sc2 although I did in the beta however I think the game has been develop for a while that is being played at a professional level for 2 years already . So I want to know what parts of sc2 is interesting to watch when they show a proleague game using sc2 ? .
I don't think I have to tell what makes starcraft bw interesting to anyone when the units are already exciting to watch . Do epic moments happen all the time or it's just sit on two bases and move out in a death ball ? in sc2 . I am really curious please fill in the details .
Especially what things to look out in a ZvT , TvP, PvT . Also if you want to know anything about broodwar you can ask me here just take this as a student exchange you tell me things I want to know about sc2 and I will tell you what I know about broodwar ^_^.
If anything, the pace of SC2 is much faster than BW, so you see a lot more smaller skirmishes in the early game. Also, while death balls are admittedly an issue, but the players themselves know that, so you will see Z or T try to disrupt before P gets their 4-5 colossus. I don't want to partake in the strategy vs mechanics discussion, but the easier mechanics does lend towards more multipronged attacks vs. BW, but that actually hurts us as viewers because it's hard for the observer to keep up with the action.
My favorite matchup is ZvT, primarily due to the counterattacking nature of the matchup. I think it's the most dynamic of the matchups with the most variable tech tree. Openings usually look the same, but there are a bunch of ways the game can go. It's also very different from BW in that T has been more aggressive in the matchup lately, so you are likely to see multipronged drops to delay Z from a Hive tech transition.
Honestly, I think one could write volumes on what separates BW from SC2 as a spectator sport. (I'm sure you could write 20 pages yourself )
As far as strategy is concerned, there are a few key differences to watch out for:
Zerg The Zerg play fairly similar to BW actually. The biggest differences in game play come from the Queen, which deals with both larva inject and creep spread and also provides the only early game air defense zerg has, so is key in a ZvT when terran can rush to banshee, also useful in defending against Hellion (vulture) harass. Inject Larva is a timed spell that basically adds extra larva to a hatchery, replacing the use of that early third macro hatch; you can imagine the importantce of this. Queen also lays creep tumors, which are sort of like creep colonies that can spawn more of themselves. Creep spread is actually pretty important as not only does it provide vision like in BW, but also gives a speed bonus to ground forces. Important because the hydralisk is stupid slow and and there's no speed upgrade.
In a TvZ baneling micro can be pretty damn important too, as Marine/Marauder/Medivac can actually be pretty deadly in the mid game.
I think blizzards starting to lean gameplay torward the way brood war matchups used to be played, for instance pvt atm is completely volatile it isn't really skill based it is 2 base a moves, and terrans want mech atm, if you go mech in pvt you usually just get countered and rolled and that's all there really is to it. The sc2 community and blizzard is actually trying to give the gameplay the community want's and there's always that 1 game that lasts about an hour but it's extremely rare, usually all of the sc2 tournaments are analyzing your opponent and reacting to what he's doing, like an all-in to kill a greedy build is typically the usual thing you will see in sc2 proleagues.
There is a couple sc2 matches that were extremely fun to watch, i could link you a few
On April 23 2012 23:33 TheToast wrote: Honestly, I think one could write volumes on what separates BW from SC2 as a spectator sport. (I'm sure you could write 20 pages yourself )
As far as strategy is concerned, there are a few key differences to watch out for:
Zerg The Zerg play fairly similar to BW actually. The biggest differences in game play come from the Queen, which deals with both larva inject and creep spread and also provides the only early game air defense zerg has, so is key in a ZvT when terran can rush to banshee, also useful in defending against Hellion (vulture) harass. Inject Larva is a timed spell that basically adds extra larva to a hatchery, replacing the use of that early third macro hatch; you can imagine the importantce of this. Queen also lays creep tumors, which are sort of like creep colonies that can spawn more of themselves. Creep spread is actually pretty important as not only does it provide vision like in BW, but also gives a speed bonus to ground forces. Important because the hydralisk is stupid slow and and there's no speed upgrade.
In a TvZ baneling micro can be pretty damn important too, as Marine/Marauder/Medivac can actually be pretty deadly in the mid game.
On April 23 2012 23:33 TheToast wrote: Honestly, I think one could write volumes on what separates BW from SC2 as a spectator sport. (I'm sure you could write 20 pages yourself )
As far as strategy is concerned, there are a few key differences to watch out for:
Zerg The Zerg play fairly similar to BW actually. The biggest differences in game play come from the Queen, which deals with both larva inject and creep spread and also provides the only early game air defense zerg has, so is key in a ZvT when terran can rush to banshee, also useful in defending against Hellion (vulture) harass. Inject Larva is a timed spell that basically adds extra larva to a hatchery, replacing the use of that early third macro hatch; you can imagine the importantce of this. Queen also lays creep tumors, which are sort of like creep colonies that can spawn more of themselves. Creep spread is actually pretty important as not only does it provide vision like in BW, but also gives a speed bonus to ground forces. Important because the hydralisk is stupid slow and and there's no speed upgrade.
In a TvZ baneling micro can be pretty damn important too, as Marine/Marauder/Medivac can actually be pretty deadly in the mid game.
SC2 lings aren't worth shit compared to BW lings
you forgot that part
Actually I'm pretty sure they have the exact same stats. Just aren't very useful in the early game against Terran due to hellion and marauder. I'm no expert on ZvP (seriously, my PvZ has always been laughably bad) but I would say zerglings have some use for the early game. Either way, I think the queen is probably the most major differences between the two games as far as the early and mid games are concerned. Banelings are important, but essentially fill the same role as the lurker.
So I take it that stalkers are like dragoons in broodwar . Do protoss player in sc2 mass stalkers and than use bling to out micro huge numbers of units ? I think mass dragoons in bw was viable as stork did use it frequently against terran in broodwar .
SC2 is very big on complementary units. It's something I personally find more advanced than BW because "counters" are so key in the game. So there is a certain timing in the game where just mass blink stalkers is viable (or most of PvP), but they are quickly able to be countered because they are glass cannons. You would need to pair it with immortals or zealots, and then ultimately colossus.
On April 23 2012 23:56 kakaman wrote: SC2 is very big on complementary units. It's something I personally find more advanced than BW because "counters" are so key in the game. So there is a certain timing in the game where just mass blink stalkers is viable (or most of PvP), but they are quickly able to be countered because they are glass cannons. You would need to pair it with immortals or zealots, and then ultimately colossus.
I find that weird because I see stalkers with the capability of blink and mobility makes it a very good unit to mass up and as long you can micro with blink you can get a good flank from each corner . Than again I am not sure about sc2 matchup although I would like to see a pure stalkers flank vs MnM .
I have watched bw somewhat casually over the last year and in the limited games i have seen they tend to have been very long macro games with large engagements tend to making attempts to deny 4th or 5th bases. That being said are there any non proxy cheese starts that i should be aware of that are a possibilty to occur off 1 or 2 bases?
On April 23 2012 23:52 Sawamura wrote: So I take it that stalkers are like dragoons in broodwar . Do protoss player in sc2 mass stalkers and than use bling to out micro huge numbers of units ? I think mass dragoons in bw was viable as stork did use it frequently against terran in broodwar .
The stalker is basically like a really weak version of the dragoon. But since it's the only mid-game gateway unit with aa, protoss are usually forced to mass stalker in all matchups and keep them together in a tight group, informally refered to as the "deathball". It actually makes for some really uninteresting play, and the stalker is the #1 problem with SC2 IMO, but that's a separate discussion I guess.
Blink stalker is mostly used in PvZ to defend against muta harass and in PvP, where both players are usually massing stalkers and blink allows for greater micro.
On April 23 2012 23:52 Sawamura wrote: So I take it that stalkers are like dragoons in broodwar . Do protoss player in sc2 mass stalkers and than use bling to out micro huge numbers of units ? I think mass dragoons in bw was viable as stork did use it frequently against terran in broodwar .
The stalker is basically like a really weak version of the dragoon. But since it's the only mid-game gateway unit with aa, protoss are usually forced to mass stalker in all matchups and keep them together in a tight group, informally refered to as the "deathball". It actually makes for some really uninteresting play, and the stalker is the #1 problem with SC2 IMO, but that's a separate discussion I guess.
Blink stalker is mostly used in PvZ to defend against muta harass and in PvP, where both players are usually massing stalkers and blink allows for greater micro.
That being said there are some shannanigens you can do with some blink stalkers all ins in almost every matchup although they seem to be falling out of poularity.
On April 24 2012 00:01 iamperfection wrote: Bw question here
I have watched bw somewhat casually over the last year and in the limited games i have seen they tend to have been very long macro games with large engagements tend to making attempts to deny 4th or 5th bases. That being said are there any non proxy cheese starts that i should be aware of that are a possibilty to occur off 1 or 2 bases?
Well 14 cc is a really good build if your opponent manages to start it off because you can either play economically aggressive or being aggressive at the beginning having larger amount units to kill of your opponent because he has the lesser amount of units at the same time . Basically any build that gets a jump start over you with economical advantage will be a disaster if you can't play catch up with them in the late game .
Also depends on what match up are you playing ?
TvZ - 2 rax fe ,1 rax fe, 2 base 9minute push with tanks and vessel
TvP - 2 factory , 1 rax fe , 5 factory push with 1,1 upgrades
TvT - 1 factory 1 starport with wraiths , 2 factory vultures , 1 factory dropship .. 4 factory push is also quite viable ..
On April 23 2012 23:56 kakaman wrote: SC2 is very big on complementary units. It's something I personally find more advanced than BW because "counters" are so key in the game. So there is a certain timing in the game where just mass blink stalkers is viable (or most of PvP), but they are quickly able to be countered because they are glass cannons. You would need to pair it with immortals or zealots, and then ultimately colossus.
I find that weird because I see stalkers with the capability of blink and mobility makes it a very good unit to mass up and as long you can micro with blink you can get a good flank from each corner . Than again I am not sure about sc2 matchup although I would like to see a pure stalkers flank vs MnM .
edit : blink....
Pure Blink Stalkers are pretty good in PvZ since Roach DPS is kinda bad against them and Lings aren't very efficient against the clumping and Blink micro of the Stalkers. I've seen many Zergs lose to Blink Stalker pushes, which pretty much look like FFE into turtling into massing Warpgates and getting Blink and ground attack upgrades into hitting a timing attack against Zerg with tons of Blink Stalkers.
However, they're actually very sub-optimal in PvT when unsupported because Marauders hard counter Stalkers so much. You can try to Blink all you want against Marauders, but stimmed Marauders deal out so much DPS that Blinking doesn't matter, and Medivacs help the Marauders tank against the lesser Stalker DPS even more. Plus, any retreating Stalkers caught by Concussive Shells are pretty much guaranteed to die, especially if Blink is on cooldown.
PvP Blink Stalker wars are really cool, however. Much better than Colossus vs Colossus deathballs slamming at each other.
Nevertheless, Blink is a necessity in every matchup going into the late game even if they're not used for some kind of timing attack. There is just too much you can do with Blink Stalkers.
On April 23 2012 23:56 kakaman wrote: SC2 is very big on complementary units. It's something I personally find more advanced than BW because "counters" are so key in the game. So there is a certain timing in the game where just mass blink stalkers is viable (or most of PvP), but they are quickly able to be countered because they are glass cannons. You would need to pair it with immortals or zealots, and then ultimately colossus.
I find that weird because I see stalkers with the capability of blink and mobility makes it a very good unit to mass up and as long you can micro with blink you can get a good flank from each corner . Than again I am not sure about sc2 matchup although I would like to see a pure stalkers flank vs MnM .
edit : blink....
Pure Blink Stalkers are pretty good in PvZ since Roach DPS is kinda bad against them and Lings aren't very efficient against the clumping and Blink micro of the Stalkers. I've seen many Zergs lose to Blink Stalker pushes, which pretty much look like FFE into turtling into massing Warpgates and getting Blink and ground attack upgrades into hitting a timing attack against Zerg with tons of Blink Stalkers.
However, they're actually very sub-optimal in PvT when unsupported because Marauders hard counter Stalkers so much. You can try to Blink all you want against Marauders, but stimmed Marauders deal out so much DPS that Blinking doesn't matter, and Medivacs help the Marauders tank against the lesser Stalker DPS even more. Plus, any retreating Stalkers caught by Concussive Shells are pretty much guaranteed to die, especially if Blink is on cooldown.
PvP Blink Stalker wars are really cool, however. Much better than Colossus vs Colossus deathballs slamming at each other.
On April 23 2012 23:52 Sawamura wrote: So I take it that stalkers are like dragoons in broodwar . Do protoss player in sc2 mass stalkers and than use bling to out micro huge numbers of units ? I think mass dragoons in bw was viable as stork did use it frequently against terran in broodwar .
The stalker is basically like a really weak version of the dragoon. But since it's the only mid-game gateway unit with aa, protoss are usually forced to mass stalker in all matchups and keep them together in a tight group, informally refered to as the "deathball". It actually makes for some really uninteresting play, and the stalker is the #1 problem with SC2 IMO, but that's a separate discussion I guess.
Blink stalker is mostly used in PvZ to defend against muta harass and in PvP, where both players are usually massing stalkers and blink allows for greater micro.
That being said there are some shannanigens you can do with some blink stalkers all ins in almost every matchup although they seem to be falling out of poularity.
Yeah for a while someone (Nony maybe? I can't remember) had a strat where they used a hallucinated pheonix to blink into Terran's main. But you don't see those things much, Protoss are much more content to FE and turtle like crazy until their deathball is sufficiently large that they don't auto-lose when they leave their base. + Show Spoiler +
this isn't balance whine, it's unit design whine. Game is well balanced, Protoss gateway army just isn't well designed.
On April 23 2012 23:56 kakaman wrote: SC2 is very big on complementary units. It's something I personally find more advanced than BW because "counters" are so key in the game. So there is a certain timing in the game where just mass blink stalkers is viable (or most of PvP), but they are quickly able to be countered because they are glass cannons. You would need to pair it with immortals or zealots, and then ultimately colossus.
I find that weird because I see stalkers with the capability of blink and mobility makes it a very good unit to mass up and as long you can micro with blink you can get a good flank from each corner . Than again I am not sure about sc2 matchup although I would like to see a pure stalkers flank vs MnM .
edit : blink....
Pure Blink Stalkers are pretty good in PvZ since Roach DPS is kinda bad against them and Lings aren't very efficient against the clumping and Blink micro of the Stalkers. I've seen many Zergs lose to Blink Stalker pushes, which pretty much look like FFE into turtling into massing Warpgates and getting Blink and ground attack upgrades into hitting a timing attack against Zerg with tons of Blink Stalkers.
However, they're actually very sub-optimal in PvT when unsupported because Marauders hard counter Stalkers so much. You can try to Blink all you want against Marauders, but stimmed Marauders deal out so much DPS that Blinking doesn't matter, and Medivacs help the Marauders tank against the lesser Stalker DPS even more. Plus, any retreating Stalkers caught by Concussive Shells are pretty much guaranteed to die, especially if Blink is on cooldown.
PvP Blink Stalker wars are really cool, however. Much better than Colossus vs Colossus deathballs slamming at each other.
Pure blink stalkers doesn't work against Z either bc all they need are a few speed lings, then you are trapped after the first blink. Again, composition is more important than actual mechanics. Dragoons wouldn't fair too well in SC2, most maps have really narrow pathways, so the dumb AI would screw you over pretty quickly.
On April 24 2012 00:15 kakaman wrote: Pure blink stalkers doesn't work against Z either bc all they need are a few speed lings, then you are trapped after the first blink. Again, composition is more important than actual mechanics. Dragoons wouldn't fair too well in SC2, most maps have really narrow pathways, so the dumb AI would screw you over pretty quickly.
I think they would be able to give dragoons good pathing in sc2..............................
although dragoons with blink is a scary thought i see the terran qq now.
On April 24 2012 00:15 kakaman wrote: Pure blink stalkers doesn't work against Z either bc all they need are a few speed lings, then you are trapped after the first blink. Again, composition is more important than actual mechanics. Dragoons wouldn't fair too well in SC2, most maps have really narrow pathways, so the dumb AI would screw you over pretty quickly.
But dragoons are quite viable against bio in number's and flanking with proper micro . I believe it can take down anything as long it has it's support unit along with it .
On April 23 2012 23:56 kakaman wrote: SC2 is very big on complementary units. It's something I personally find more advanced than BW because "counters" are so key in the game. So there is a certain timing in the game where just mass blink stalkers is viable (or most of PvP), but they are quickly able to be countered because they are glass cannons. You would need to pair it with immortals or zealots, and then ultimately colossus.
I find that weird because I see stalkers with the capability of blink and mobility makes it a very good unit to mass up and as long you can micro with blink you can get a good flank from each corner . Than again I am not sure about sc2 matchup although I would like to see a pure stalkers flank vs MnM .
edit : blink....
Pure Blink Stalkers are pretty good in PvZ since Roach DPS is kinda bad against them and Lings aren't very efficient against the clumping and Blink micro of the Stalkers. I've seen many Zergs lose to Blink Stalker pushes, which pretty much look like FFE into turtling into massing Warpgates and getting Blink and ground attack upgrades into hitting a timing attack against Zerg with tons of Blink Stalkers.
However, they're actually very sub-optimal in PvT when unsupported because Marauders hard counter Stalkers so much. You can try to Blink all you want against Marauders, but stimmed Marauders deal out so much DPS that Blinking doesn't matter, and Medivacs help the Marauders tank against the lesser Stalker DPS even more. Plus, any retreating Stalkers caught by Concussive Shells are pretty much guaranteed to die, especially if Blink is on cooldown.
PvP Blink Stalker wars are really cool, however. Much better than Colossus vs Colossus deathballs slamming at each other.
I want my dragoons back
Well, I'm pretty sure Dragoons would suck against Marauders as well, even if it's slightly beefier with a slightly better attack. Stimmed Mauraders with Medivac support are just so good against Stalkers and Roaches, but mixing in Zealots and Lings to tank damage do give their respective armies a fighting chance until higher-tech units are mixed in. Plus, I think Blink is almost a necessity with Terrans being able to do drops so easily and Zerg being able to move so fast on Creep.
EPT
)
