On April 23 2012 23:33 FlyingToilet wrote: I think blizzards starting to lean gameplay torward the way brood war matchups used to be played, for instance pvt atm is completely volatile it isn't really skill based it is 2 base a moves, and terrans want mech atm, if you go mech in pvt you usually just get countered and rolled and that's all there really is to it. The sc2 community and blizzard is actually trying to give the gameplay the community want's and there's always that 1 game that lasts about an hour but it's extremely rare, usually all of the sc2 tournaments are analyzing your opponent and reacting to what he's doing, like an all-in to kill a greedy build is typically the usual thing you will see in sc2 proleagues.
There is a couple sc2 matches that were extremely fun to watch, i could link you a few
I watched the 1st match and I must say, what an absurd game. I haven't watched sc2 since like the first GSL and at least that was somewhat more interesting with silly cheese left and right. This was literally Game start 1. 0 harass, 0 micro 2. both players max supply 3. sit around for 10 minutes 4. finally MVP decides to somewhat harass 5. terrible (basically no) response, gg also had some great 1a attacks from Nestea with nonsense unit combos. Has no anti-air in a 30minute long game, makes 20 broodlords, a-move. Dies to like 10 vikings. I know MVP and Nestea aren't exactly the cream of the crop but I think they play worse in sc2 than BW. I'm scared to watch the other matches now.
EDIT: Actually I watched the other videos. The IPL top plays... + Show Spoiler +
5. fails to zealot wall 4. a-moves banelings? 3. He used stop-lurkers. 2. Mass infested terran was pretty cute 1. I'm not even sure what was supposed to be the "play" here.
This is why I can't support sc2. Out of every single top game or top plays I've ever seen, I've never seen anything that I can't do with zero to minimal effort. Sure I can't do everything simultaneously but if I wanted to watch godlike multitask, I would watch BW.
I don't know what this guy is smoking (the one who posted the links) but these are certainly all meh games in my book. If you want better games just look for recent games of players like MKP, Parting or DRG.
On April 24 2012 06:56 Zealously wrote: Xenocide_Knight: Arguments like that bother me. "Nothing I can't do with zero to minimal effort" is pure bullshit. Can you split a large amount of marines against speed-banelings (I believe you will find that this is hard to do), or can you dodge psi storms like MKP in his GSTL game vs. PartinG? Can you pick up colossi to save them and drop them off to make another shot, before picking them up again - in the middle of a big fight? Those are feats of (relatively) high-level micro, and if you claim you can repeat any of those, I'd like you to show that. In fact, you could probably make a lot of money in SCII if you could. And I still don't get why people expect SC2 progamers to be as good at SC2 as BW pros are at BW. Strategies have had a decade to develop, and the correct way of doing most things has been figured out. BW has had years and years of fine-tuning, while SC2 has not. BW might be the more complex game, and it might, in the end, be the "better" game - but oversimplifying SC2 and claiming that anything progamers can do in the game is easily doable on an off night when you've had a few beers is stupid.
Guarantee you that was 100x harder than colossus shuttle micro (some hyperbole, but you get it)
100x harder is pushing it, there is some skill required to using micro on warp prisms (and medivacs / ovies for that matter) you basically keep the warp prism moving as well as microing the unit(s) you are dropping at the same time.. if anything they are likely around the same skill requirement unless you want to enlighten me.
100x was an exaggeration; I stated that it was hyperbole. But it is definitely harder.
In regards to your question, it seems to me that shuttle/prism micro is relatively the same, it's just the units (Reaver, Colossus) and overall mechanics of each game that are different. Reaver micro while macroing back at your base in inherently harder in BW than in sc2 because of MBS and auto-mine.
The AI for the reaver also isn't the greatest so occasionally you will get dud scarabs or it won't fire properly. Dropping a reaver, producing scarabs, targeting something, picking up, repeating, all the while actually having to move your screen away from the battle occasionally is much harder than dropping the colo, pretty much just letting it a-move since it's attack is AOE anyways, then picking it up again. All without having to look back at your base.
woah woah hold up, you were arguing about the micro not that macro, you can't back off of that. My entire point was the micro is equivolent sure macro in general is harder in BW but so what? thats been beaten to death a million times over.
I was simply stating that when you factor in the entirety of a real game, that obviously macro does come into play since micro/macro hold a delicate balance with each other (at least in BW).
And even disregarding that fact, reaver/shuttle micro is still harder than colo/prism micro because the colossus is much easier to use. It doesn't need weapon/ammo to be made, it has pretty damn long range iirc, and the AI in sc2 is pretty good so you don't have to target anything with it, you can just a-move it towards the enemy units and it would do fine.
I'm not saying colo/prism micro takes no skill, but reaver drop micro is definitely harder to pull of. Especially since it's a integral part of Protoss harassment, where as colo drops, correct me if I am wrong, just sounds like some fancy unit control rather than a legitimate strategy you'd use over actual harassment options.
I'm really not for forum disputes/arguments such as this, especially when it pertains to BW vs SC2, so I'll just leave it at that and won't pursue the subject any further.
On April 23 2012 23:33 FlyingToilet wrote: I think blizzards starting to lean gameplay torward the way brood war matchups used to be played, for instance pvt atm is completely volatile it isn't really skill based it is 2 base a moves, and terrans want mech atm, if you go mech in pvt you usually just get countered and rolled and that's all there really is to it. The sc2 community and blizzard is actually trying to give the gameplay the community want's and there's always that 1 game that lasts about an hour but it's extremely rare, usually all of the sc2 tournaments are analyzing your opponent and reacting to what he's doing, like an all-in to kill a greedy build is typically the usual thing you will see in sc2 proleagues.
I watched the 1st match and I must say, what an absurd game. I haven't watched sc2 since like the first GSL and at least that was somewhat more interesting with silly cheese left and right. This was literally Game start 1. 0 harass, 0 micro 2. both players max supply 3. sit around for 10 minutes 4. finally MVP decides to somewhat harass 5. terrible (basically no) response, gg also had some great 1a attacks from Nestea with nonsense unit combos. Has no anti-air in a 30minute long game, makes 20 broodlords, a-move. Dies to like 10 vikings. I know MVP and Nestea aren't exactly the cream of the crop but I think they play worse in sc2 than BW. I'm scared to watch the other matches now.
EDIT: Actually I watched the other videos. The IPL top plays... + Show Spoiler +
5. fails to zealot wall 4. a-moves banelings? 3. He used stop-lurkers. 2. Mass infested terran was pretty cute 1. I'm not even sure what was supposed to be the "play" here.
This is why I can't support sc2. Out of every single top game or top plays I've ever seen, I've never seen anything that I can't do with zero to minimal effort. Sure I can't do everything simultaneously but if I wanted to watch godlike multitask, I would watch BW.
I don't know what this guy is smoking (the one who posted the links) but these are certainly all meh games in my book. If you want better games just look for recent games of players like MKP, Parting or DRG.
I have to agree. Boxer vs Rain had cool engagements but was otherwise a long, boring turtle fest. Same thing with MVP vs Nestea. I think the IPL top plays montages are pretty neat, but not that impressive compared to the stuff I see in BW.
When it comes to TvP, the stereotype of "turtle to 200/200 deathballs and smash into each other" is slowly being changed by some more aggressive styles being displayed in some games. Specifically, Protoss going for Templar instead of Colossus makes the game so much more skill-based and entertaining, as Storms are very much a skill-based spell and you have the delicate dance between Templar and Ghosts.
If you can somehow watch the first MKP vs Parting game from the GSTL finals (before the disconnect), then I would definitely recommend that game as a good example of a fantastic TvP (minus the regame drama). MKP's MMM splits in that game were absolutely breathtaking, and both players played an aggressive back-and-forth match that had near constant action.
However, I'm sure that vod is behind a pay-wall, though it's actually kinda easy to acquire anything illegally but that makes esports very sad. If you can't watch that match, I think game 1 of Polt vs Parting from GSL is a very similar game, minus MKP's epic MMM splits. Game 1 of MC vs Virus also is somewhat similar, though IMO less impressive of a game.
edit: Actually, I found a Chinese cast of the games.
First game at 1h 5m. Regame at 49m.
Hmmm, perhaps I remembered more epic storm dodges in game 1 than there actually were. The regame has a nice storm dodge in the middle of it. But if you like Terran winning, the regame is for you. If you like Protoss almost winning (minus the disconnect), then the first game is a good game.
And predictably, Sawa's blog turns into the latest battlefield in the ongoing BW versus SC2 debate lol...
Maybe this new Proleague format won't be so bad after all. Maybe it can at least force the two communities together, force each side to watch some extremely high level matches of the other game. Or it will just create the single worst LR thread in the history of the internet. Should be fun either way hahaha.
if you are looking for a good example of how protoss vs terran is you should look for games of parting (protoss) when he plays against terrans
and games of MKP the best terran right now
Parting is kida impresive because she "patrols" the map with HTs, yep he uses them to gain map control and storm some terran units (its not always possible but, when he can, he do it) and as artosis said he literal flanks entire armies with just Ht.
Personaly i think colossus should be reoved from the game and the stalker should be twiked, protoss is the more "deathball" race, zerg and terrans are playing more differents styles but protoss... its like they said you cant go with a grup of stalker becuase although they are fast and have blink... the have very low dps and are glass cannons.
Thats why i love parting style so much, and the best thing is that its becoming standar.
the ussual PvT is mass zelot, some stalkers, some sentries and colossi, when the terran have vikings switch to templar, and when the terran makes ghost you just micro and ry to feedback the ghost and not be EMPed and trying to mantain the colossus alive.
On April 24 2012 06:56 Zealously wrote: Xenocide_Knight: Arguments like that bother me. "Nothing I can't do with zero to minimal effort" is pure bullshit. Can you split a large amount of marines against speed-banelings (I believe you will find that this is hard to do), or can you dodge psi storms like MKP in his GSTL game vs. PartinG? Can you pick up colossi to save them and drop them off to make another shot, before picking them up again - in the middle of a big fight? Those are feats of (relatively) high-level micro, and if you claim you can repeat any of those, I'd like you to show that. In fact, you could probably make a lot of money in SCII if you could. And I still don't get why people expect SC2 progamers to be as good at SC2 as BW pros are at BW. Strategies have had a decade to develop, and the correct way of doing most things has been figured out. BW has had years and years of fine-tuning, while SC2 has not. BW might be the more complex game, and it might, in the end, be the "better" game - but oversimplifying SC2 and claiming that anything progamers can do in the game is easily doable on an off night when you've had a few beers is stupid.
Response that probably serves no purpose but replies to Zealously's assumptions + Show Spoiler +
While there were no examples of marine vs baneling in any of the videos I mentioned or watched, I actually have seen the zenix(?) vs MKP game with marine splits. And yes, I can do everything that was shown in that game or the highlight videos. If that's the only thing you are focusing on, it's not very hard. People do much harder feats of mechanical skill on a daily basis.
I haven't really played sc2 (with any intent of seriousness or getting better anyway) since the beta but if you want, I will show you similar things I can do in BW that are more difficult. Marine split vs lurkers (I'm awful at this but I have done it in the past. Not a Terran player at all though), Hydras dodging storms, and reaver micro. I have no idea what the current skill level on the current sc2 ladder is but from reading Gheed's blogs, it seems comically low. But then again, I see people link me to videos of blink stalkers kiting marines and claiming it as "high level micro". That's not micro, that's mandatory, even at D level in BW.
Believe me, I don't expect SC2 progamers to be on the level of BW pros. The SC2 progamers were awful. MVP was a lamb to the slaughter most of his career and Iron, Claire, ZergBong, etc were all jokes. Boxer Nada and July were playing god awful and all they did was sell out for money switching over to sc2. I was merely remarking my surprise that they are STILL playing awful, even as the best sc2 players. I would have thought they would have somewhat improved. Maybe sc2 just makes everyone look noob though.
I will continue to keep my eyes and ears open for an example of high level play in sc2 that is comparable to something beyond your average foreigner BW match. Actually nvm. This video that sc14s linked was pretty impressive.
Except still, some of the clips... Stalkers vs marines really? Hellions vs lings? You might as well link every single PvP, PvT, or TvZ ever played then. Maybe there is hope for sc2. I will, as always, await the day sc2 becomes something more than amateur RTS tournaments without cannibalizing BW's players and infrastructure.
EDIT: I just want to point out, I don't mean to sound angry or offensive. I'm just bothered that people seem to constantly forget that the people who hate on sc2 are usually the ones who pre-ordered the game asap, counted down hours until the beta client was available, downloaded it even before they had a beta key just to look at the download screen, lined up for the release, did an all night run of the campaign starting from midnight when it was out, laddered daily for hours, etc etc. Back before diamond league, I was #1 plat in my division. When diamond league was released, I was #1 diamond. My friend and I spent our summer getting to #1 diamond in 2v2. But at the end of all that, my friends and I looked at each other and all said the same thing. "What a disappointment."
On April 24 2012 06:56 Zealously wrote: Xenocide_Knight: Arguments like that bother me. "Nothing I can't do with zero to minimal effort" is pure bullshit. Can you split a large amount of marines against speed-banelings (I believe you will find that this is hard to do), or can you dodge psi storms like MKP in his GSTL game vs. PartinG? Can you pick up colossi to save them and drop them off to make another shot, before picking them up again - in the middle of a big fight? Those are feats of (relatively) high-level micro, and if you claim you can repeat any of those, I'd like you to show that. In fact, you could probably make a lot of money in SCII if you could. And I still don't get why people expect SC2 progamers to be as good at SC2 as BW pros are at BW. Strategies have had a decade to develop, and the correct way of doing most things has been figured out. BW has had years and years of fine-tuning, while SC2 has not. BW might be the more complex game, and it might, in the end, be the "better" game - but oversimplifying SC2 and claiming that anything progamers can do in the game is easily doable on an off night when you've had a few beers is stupid.
Response that probably serves no purpose but replies to Zealously's assumptions + Show Spoiler +
While there were no examples of marine vs baneling in any of the videos I mentioned or watched, I actually have seen the zenix(?) vs MKP game with marine splits. And yes, I can do everything that was shown in that game or the highlight videos. If that's the only thing you are focusing on, it's not very hard. People do much harder feats of mechanical skill on a daily basis.
I haven't really played sc2 (with any intent of seriousness or getting better anyway) since the beta but if you want, I will show you similar things I can do in BW that are more difficult. Marine split vs lurkers (I'm awful at this but I have done it in the past. Not a Terran player at all though), Hydras dodging storms, and reaver micro. I have no idea what the current skill level on the current sc2 ladder is but from reading Gheed's blogs, it seems comically low. But then again, I see people link me to videos of blink stalkers kiting marines and claiming it as "high level micro". That's not micro, that's mandatory, even at D level in BW.
Believe me, I don't expect SC2 progamers to be on the level of BW pros. The SC2 progamers were awful. MVP was a lamb to the slaughter most of his career and Iron, Claire, ZergBong, etc were all jokes. Boxer Nada and July were playing god awful and all they did was sell out for money switching over to sc2. I was merely remarking my surprise that they are STILL playing awful, even as the best sc2 players. I would have thought they would have somewhat improved. Maybe sc2 just makes everyone look noob though.
I will continue to keep my eyes and ears open for an example of high level play in sc2 that is comparable to something beyond your average foreigner BW match. Actually nvm. This video that sc14s linked was pretty impressive. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdSKD3LRHV8&feature=related Except still, some of the clips... Stalkers vs marines really? Hellions vs lings? You might as well link every single PvP, PvT, or TvZ ever played then. Maybe there is hope for sc2. I will, as always, await the day sc2 becomes something more than amateur RTS tournaments without cannibalizing BW's players and infrastructure.
EDIT: I just want to point out, I don't mean to sound angry or offensive. I'm just bothered that people seem to constantly forget that the people who hate on sc2 are usually the ones who pre-ordered the game asap, counted down hours until the beta client was available, downloaded it even before they had a beta key just to look at the download screen, lined up for the release, did an all night run of the campaign starting from midnight when it was out, laddered daily for hours, etc etc. Back before diamond league, I was #1 plat in my division. When diamond league was released, I was #1 diamond. My friend and I spent our summer getting to #1 diamond in 2v2. But at the end of all that, my friends and I looked at each other and all said the same thing. "What a disappointment."
I think to benchmark the current sc2 ladder skill from gheeds blog pretty much illogical because he find's it fun to bully bronze players who are actually at the equivalent of E- on iccup . I can't believe he find a sense of pride in bullying those low level players with worker rushes . I want to see how gheed worker rushes me in broodwar I will make him regret it that's for sure . I have watch most of the IPL highlight one thing's that for sure Bio for terran has become ridiculously strong to the point it is use in every matchup.
Also the only fun part I like about the hidden banelings that is when it pops up under a unaware MnM ball and than seeing it melts almost remembers me of lurkers . But lurkers is 100x better than baneling bombs .. At least they do not die after unleashing it's payload . Also I think players has improved remarkably in sc2 ladder since the competition got a little tighter compared to the days when it is in beta . I also was one of those guys who were begging for a beta key for sc2 and yet ... I was furious that the game isn't really that microable as it did in bw .
Unit counters is a much more realistic factor in sc2 than bw I guess because in bw we actually could use the standard units as soft counter rather than relying solely on a specific unit to hard counter the opponents play style . Dragoons and Marine comes to my mind when I talk about this . Overall I like the fact that this maybe is a chance to show the bw crowd and the sc2 crowd how different the game is when most of the ignorant players refuse to watch bw because they find the graphics outdated .
Also I thought that mbs would have made the game much more faster pace since Macro is out of the question when mbs allows you to macro out of buildings under one single hotkey . I was expecting the game to be micro oriented and harassment base which in then could lead to more guerrilla tactics and skirmishes over all the map but the nonetheless it isn't that much appears to be on sc2 besides your usual medivac drop and than expo under it's attack.
Most of my thoughts of sc2 are basically not directed to any of your quotes but I do understand the disappointment of the game but than I wonder if blizzard actually made sc2 an updated version of broodwar with updated graphics will we be griping over sc2 right now ?
EPT
