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On March 06 2012 11:18 Gosi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2012 08:42 rauk wrote:
Onereason that bw or sc2 players have a skewed perspective on skill is the fact that we can play pros whenever we want as long as we're good enough to be matched on ladder. I think if people couldnt play anyone outside of their own city and only occasionally met players from just within their own province or state bianually for a statewide tournament people would have much higher opinions of themselves. Well, in brood war you would pretty much never get the chance to play a progamer if you weren't a progamer yourself cuz most of them were/are practicing on LAN inhouse or if u had a really high rank on iccup during the few seasons 2009(?) when alot of progamers were smurfing on iccup. That was something special to play a game against a progamer or just someone well known in general during that time. Now, every sucker out there hit well known players on ladder all the time even if they are really bad at this game, because the ranking system in sc2 is so flawed.
Agreed on not playing actual Korean superpros but I think you had a better chance to hit well known foreigners in BW than you do in Sc2. I mean yeah the Sc2 system isn't perfect but it doesn't really entirely reset. I've been mid-masters at best and I assure you I never hit a pro on the ladder. But in iCCup, even though I was just a D scrub, the way the ladder system works makes you have to work your way up from the bottom every few months. I've played a few people who had been formerly A- or so including someone who the old "Who's Who" threads said was Ret !
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On March 04 2012 23:34 Jealous wrote:Maybe I am not understanding something, but if people don't ladder, how do they get stratified into Gold/Plat/Diamond? Do you mean that it is purely representative of activity (and placement matches I guess)? If I had to sum up this post in one sentence, it would be: "Until you reach Masters league, mass gaming gives equal results to actual skill, and the actual skill level is still low." In other words, something like this: ![[image loading]](http://i41.tinypic.com/bz9j9.png) Yes?
tbh even though ur graph misses the point, its not true at all.
i'm masters, and If I make a new account and go through diamond I will go like 20-2 until I hit masters league, the skill difference is REALLY big. that is is I play standard macro games and play cheese-proof.
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On March 06 2012 11:26 Bibbit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2012 11:18 Gosi wrote:On March 06 2012 08:42 rauk wrote:
Onereason that bw or sc2 players have a skewed perspective on skill is the fact that we can play pros whenever we want as long as we're good enough to be matched on ladder. I think if people couldnt play anyone outside of their own city and only occasionally met players from just within their own province or state bianually for a statewide tournament people would have much higher opinions of themselves. Well, in brood war you would pretty much never get the chance to play a progamer if you weren't a progamer yourself cuz most of them were/are practicing on LAN inhouse or if u had a really high rank on iccup during the few seasons 2009(?) when alot of progamers were smurfing on iccup. That was something special to play a game against a progamer or just someone well known in general during that time. Now, every sucker out there hit well known players on ladder all the time even if they are really bad at this game, because the ranking system in sc2 is so flawed. Agreed on not playing actual Korean superpros but I think you had a better chance to hit well known foreigners in BW than you do in Sc2. I mean yeah the Sc2 system isn't perfect but it doesn't really entirely reset. I've been mid-masters at best and I assure you I never hit a pro on the ladder. But in iCCup, even though I was just a D scrub, the way the ladder system works makes you have to work your way up from the bottom every few months. I've played a few people who had been formerly A- or so including someone who the old "Who's Who" threads said was Ret !
the point i was trying to make is that no matter where you are in the world you can play pretty much any pro at your leisure on ladder if you're good enough but if you're a promising young tennis player you can't play nadal/federer/whoever without flying out and being well known enough that they'd even give you a game.
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On March 06 2012 11:26 AegiS_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 23:34 Jealous wrote:Maybe I am not understanding something, but if people don't ladder, how do they get stratified into Gold/Plat/Diamond? Do you mean that it is purely representative of activity (and placement matches I guess)? If I had to sum up this post in one sentence, it would be: "Until you reach Masters league, mass gaming gives equal results to actual skill, and the actual skill level is still low." In other words, something like this: Yes? tbh even though ur graph misses the point, its not true at all. i'm masters, and If I make a new account and go through diamond I will go like 20-2 until I hit masters league, the skill difference is REALLY big. that is is I play standard macro games and play cheese-proof.
I agree with this as well. There's obviously a big skill difference between top GM's and low GM's, but the former do occasionally lose to the latter if they're off their game that day or they get caught off guard by a certain build. A masters player will almost never lose to a platinum player, and a platinum player will almost never lose to a silver player. The skill gap at the top may be very large if measured by the amount of inherent talent and invested time needed to make it from semi-pro to pro, but if you are measuring by consistency of result, it is much less dramatic. I would say that this was less true for a more mechanically-oriented game like bw.
But I guess this is neither here nor there when debating the central point of the thread. 
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Good read.
I haven't played SC2 for a while now but when I did, I would ponder about a build order (for days) against a race and think through the outcomes and try to play a game, then when I played, I'd get matched up against the races i don't want to play against (usually ends up being 5 PvPs in a row). Hell, I tried to do a Bisu style PvZ (Phoenix DT, 4gate 2 archon), but I did not have the ability to utilize it.
Yes I'm bad at SC2 considering i'm only diamond. I know I could be better if I were to play 10 hours every day but I really don't have the time for that (and I don't want to devote so much time). I keep my macro at a good level every game, my micro is horrible, decision making even worse, please don't talk about my multi-tasking and base layouts.
If you're Master league, then you'd probably comparing your play to the SC2 pros you see in tournaments, you understand deep in your heart that you could play like them but your body just can't keep up and that is why you say you're bad.
For a 10 year old top-8 bronze leaguer, his friends might think that he's 'pretty good'.
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On March 06 2012 12:44 Zariel wrote:
Good read.
I haven't played SC2 for a while now but when I did, I would ponder about a build order (for days) against a race and think through the outcomes and try to play a game, then when I played, I'd get matched up against the races i don't want to play against (usually ends up being 5 PvPs in a row). Hell, I tried to do a Bisu style PvZ (Phoenix DT, 4gate 2 archon), but I did not have the ability to utilize it.
Yes I'm bad at SC2 considering i'm only diamond. I know I could be better if I were to play 10 hours every day but I really don't have the time for that (and I don't want to devote so much time). I keep my macro at a good level every game, my micro is horrible, decision making even worse, please don't talk about my multi-tasking and base layouts.
If you're Master league, then you'd probably comparing your play to the SC2 pros you see in tournaments, you understand deep in your heart that you could play like them but your body just can't keep up and that is why you say you're bad.
For a 10 year old top-8 bronze leaguer, his friends might think that he's 'pretty good'.
Yea basically. The better you get the more you realize how bad you are.
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From my personal experience from real life friends. It is the platinum/diamond/low master players who play 1v1 regularly that tend to think highly of themselves and want others to take them seriously. The players who truly have potential tend to think they are bad or have huge egos. So from my experience I agree with most of your post. However I can only speak for myself based on what I have seen.
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I would think a low masters player that was smart enough to know what exactly holds him back from the ceiling would also understand the inarguable time sink required in reaching that level. They're aware they can't practice 8 hours a day to reach that level in a matter of a few months, and are content to climb casually.
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On March 04 2012 23:45 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 23:40 Kanil wrote:On March 04 2012 23:37 Blazinghand wrote:
You're trapped in the contextualization of 1v1 ladder as "the entire range of sc2 skill". And you seem to be measuring the entire range of SC2 skill as "1v1"? Traditionally, the only other play mode that is widely considered as indicative of skill is 2v2, because 1v1 and 2v2 (to a much lower degree nowadays) are all that pro gamers play.
2v2 isn't considered indicative of skill... at least not MMR because the skill level is so much lower that there isn't a league high enough to be the same as plat in 1v1.
I tend to fall victim to thinking too good of myself, but it's okay. At least, I play until I lose often and then when i calm down, I adjust and play more.
It's interesting for me, because right now im in the limbo between diamond and masters on EU server. I'm still in diamond because I don't have a stable enough win rate against masters yet, but I play basically exlusively against low-mid masters because as soon as it matches me vs a diamond I win again.
I'm hoping that I can just refine a couple more aspects of my builds and then I will get my promote and can finally consider myself "bad" instead of horrible 
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EPT
