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NO-One is obliged to do this its just a request but i'd really like to see the numbers
Ok i'm going to keep this Blog short but i wanted to know if anyone has time to make a compilation of how many times and how often Foreigner Pros who play Protoss (Naniwa,Huk,Grubby,Sase) Etc. How many times do these guys beat High-Level Korean Pros compared to the best Foreigner Zergs and Terrans and no i don't mean Stephano because he is kind-of an Outliar (since he is so strong and uncontested best Foreign Zerg)
Anyways to keep it short i'm not sure if this permitted even if its a blog. But i've had this suspicion for a long time that the Protoss race is easier to take games off Koreans if a Mediocre Foreigner player is playing compared to A Foreigner playing Zerg,Terran. I first started to notice this trend at IEM Newyork when TT1, and Gatored took a bunch of games off High level Code S Code A or just really good Koreans.
In no way am i trying to take away from their wins; but its been happening quite alot in foreign tournaments and seems to be more prevalent with Mediocre/semi-pro Protoss's are taking Bo3's of High Level Koreans. I've noticed the trend and it seems to be alot more common that Mediocre Terran and Zergs taking BO3's off of High Level Koreans. These are just my suspicions because i have been examining many tournament results and have come to these suspicions.
If anyone could compile some kind of list for me it would help a ton for basically all or alot of the foreign tourneys that happened in the past 6-8 months.
NO-One is obliged to do this its just a request but i'd really like to see the numbers. You can call me crazy but something tells me its easier for Protoss race at that level to take games off Koreans who are way better than them. I finally came to my conclusions after this last MLG with Grubbys performance. (Not to take away from his achievement) But this has been happening way too much for me to dismiss it.
Sorry if i've upset anyone but i really have an inkling something is wrong because Protoss seemed so weak way back then and then all of a sudden it seems like Mediocre Foreign Protoss have the best chance at taking games/bo3's off of Korean Pros.
I might end up doing the research myself in the end but i don't have the time ATM
Finit
Sorry if this blog upsets anyone
Also not just Naniwa,Huk,Sase,Grubby I also mean like any other Mediocre or not so high level Foreigner Protoss who has taken Bo3's off of Koreans or what not.
Also i realise that Naniwa ,Huk are kind-of Outliars since they have been training/owning it up in Korean. But there seems to be a bunch of Foreign Protoss who never trained in Korean who have been raising my suspicions when they take Bo3's off the High Level Koreans and what not.
I don't care if replies to the blog are intended on helping or not with the compilation; any points we can argue about would be great.
 
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United States1258 Posts
So you have an idea.. based on no numbers and faulty logic.
If it were so "easy" for "mediocre" protoss foreigners to take games off of high level koreans, why wouldn't high level korean protoss players be doing it more often? How would you explain that inconsistency?
Your entire "theory" doesn't even make logic sense, much less have any grounding in results (that apparently you want other people to find?)
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On March 01 2012 14:56 HardlyNever wrote:
So you have an idea.. based on no numbers and faulty logic.
If it were so "easy" for "mediocre" protoss foreigners to take games off of high level koreans, why wouldn't high level korean protoss players be doing it more often? How would you explain that inconsistency?
Your entire "theory" doesn't even make logic sense, much less have any grounding in results (that apparently you want other people to find?)
I didn't say it was so easy i said it happens more often that Foreigner Zergs or Terrans beating Pro Koreans from what i've seen. Stephano an Outliar though so don't count him.
I need to first have a compilation of numbers and how many times the Mediocre Protoss Foreigners take games/Bo3's of Koreans i haven't finished research yet so i just started this blog to get peoples ideas/arguments.
Its not fault logic considering i haven't compiled the statistics yet.
BUT i've noticed a pattern and this pattern cannot be denied.
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How are you going to rate mediocre/a class foreigners? <--- Thats totaly subjective and probably why you have come to this retarded conclusion
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On March 01 2012 15:01 XRaDiiX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 14:56 HardlyNever wrote:
So you have an idea.. based on no numbers and faulty logic.
If it were so "easy" for "mediocre" protoss foreigners to take games off of high level koreans, why wouldn't high level korean protoss players be doing it more often? How would you explain that inconsistency?
Your entire "theory" doesn't even make logic sense, much less have any grounding in results (that apparently you want other people to find?)
I didn't say it was so easy i said it happens more often that Foreigner Zergs or Terrans beating Pro Koreans from what i've seen. Stephano an Outliar though so don't count him. I need to first have a compilation of numbers and how many times the Mediocre Protoss Foreigners take games/Bo3's of Koreans i haven't finished research yet so i just started this blog to get peoples ideas/arguments. Its not fault logic considering i haven't compiled the statistics yet. BUT i've noticed a pattern and this pattern cannot be denied.
It can be denied, because you don't actually have any evidence of a pattern. All you have is a "feeling" likely founded entirely on your own biases.
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Why would bad foreigner protosses outperform the apparently superior korean protosses?
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On March 01 2012 14:56 HardlyNever wrote:
So you have an idea.. based on no numbers and faulty logic.
If it were so "easy" for "mediocre" protoss foreigners to take games off of high level koreans, why wouldn't high level korean protoss players be doing it more often? How would you explain that inconsistency?
Your entire "theory" doesn't even make logic sense, much less have any grounding in results (that apparently you want other people to find?)
Have you, per chance, watched any GSL this season at all?
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On March 01 2012 15:15 Rotcod wrote:
How are you going to rate mediocre/a class foreigners? <--- Thats totaly subjective and probably why you have come to this retarded conclusion
Its still an idea and i have noticed the trend if i'm able to compile the information it will be much clearer.
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On March 01 2012 15:30 TylerThaCreator wrote:
Why would bad foreigner protosses outperform the apparently superior korean protosses?
They wouldn't if you read what i said i said they take games off them more often than Zerg/Terran mediocre foreigners not that they are doing better than Korean Protosses.
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On March 01 2012 15:16 Jumbled wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 15:01 XRaDiiX wrote:On March 01 2012 14:56 HardlyNever wrote:
So you have an idea.. based on no numbers and faulty logic.
If it were so "easy" for "mediocre" protoss foreigners to take games off of high level koreans, why wouldn't high level korean protoss players be doing it more often? How would you explain that inconsistency?
Your entire "theory" doesn't even make logic sense, much less have any grounding in results (that apparently you want other people to find?)
I didn't say it was so easy i said it happens more often that Foreigner Zergs or Terrans beating Pro Koreans from what i've seen. Stephano an Outliar though so don't count him. I need to first have a compilation of numbers and how many times the Mediocre Protoss Foreigners take games/Bo3's of Koreans i haven't finished research yet so i just started this blog to get peoples ideas/arguments. Its not fault logic considering i haven't compiled the statistics yet. BUT i've noticed a pattern and this pattern cannot be denied. It can be denied, because you don't actually have any evidence of a pattern. All you have is a "feeling" likely founded entirely on your own biases.
No not on biases but what i have noticed when watching several tournaments in the past 6-8 months. I told you i do not have the information and statistics compiled yet. Until then you can say its not true but i need to gather the appropriate data.
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so Gatored, who's strongest matchup was pvz was destroying the likes of DRG and now you think protoss is the op race, wonderful theory you have there
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I don't know if this is relevant, but I always feel protoss tends to loose and win on really small margins early to mid game. In that sense, they get behind or get out of control a lot faster than the other races.
Also, I tend to feel that protoss focuses a lot on somewhat different skill sets, since the above feels true for me. Winning the small battles matters sooo much and as a result, a lot of players who are good at this seem to do well (probably why all of our best foreign protoss are wc3 vets and not ex bw stars)
But, this is just my non-factual based gut feeling or opinion, so take it as such,
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Just throwing it out there, Gatored has sick PvT, Mana has probably the best and most consistent PvT in the whole non-Korea especially in tournaments, and the Korean toss have only recently developed PvT that was not "oh... you did a stim timing, guess i die now before i get that deathball up..." MC was the exception in that he went 2 base timings a lot, and Inca as well, coz he made DT's work.
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On March 01 2012 16:41 Coramoor wrote:
so Gatored, who's strongest matchup was pvz was destroying the likes of DRG and now you think protoss is the op race, wonderful theory you have there
No what i mean is at that level of play Protoss is a strong race considering how many players of this calibre have taken out Korean pros on several occasions and this is extremely rare for Zerg/Terrans of that Calibre to do this.
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On March 01 2012 16:43 Vansetsu wrote:
I don't know if this is relevant, but I always feel protoss tends to loose and win on really small margins early to mid game. In that sense, they get behind or get out of control a lot faster than the other races.
Also, I tend to feel that protoss focuses a lot on somewhat different skill sets, since the above feels true for me. Winning the small battles matters sooo much and as a result, a lot of players who are good at this seem to do well (probably why all of our best foreign protoss are wc3 vets and not ex bw stars)
But, this is just my non-factual based gut feeling or opinion, so take it as such,
This is true most matches that Protoss is involved in is always a significant moment where you get ahead in army size or some battle and it becomes a snowball effect usually.
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On March 01 2012 14:56 HardlyNever wrote:
So you have an idea.. based on no numbers and faulty logic.
If it were so "easy" for "mediocre" protoss foreigners to take games off of high level koreans, why wouldn't high level korean protoss players be doing it more often? How would you explain that inconsistency?
Your entire "theory" doesn't even make logic sense, much less have any grounding in results (that apparently you want other people to find?)
in the same way that zerg never used infestors, cried about protoss deathball, then found infestors and got infestors nerfed, was back to being the underdog, then found mass muta and phoenix got buffed.
meanwhile, protoss always went 1 base. protoss has recently figured out they can macro just as well as zerg and terran. Remember that zerg was "the macro race" because it naturally progressed to that stage. Season 1 and 2 games from PROS tended to be 2 base 30 minute affairs. Now its 5 or 6 base 20 minute affairs. terran and protoss whined about zerg being able to be ahead on economy (which they HAVE TO BE BY GAME DESIGN), until T and P started actually macroing on their own and learning how to maximize their macro abiltiies. mass FFE games later, P is back on par with zerg and rolling with the deathballs again.
Protoss has been stated as "the underdog" all this time.
protoss has always had the highest representation in GM.
protoss was always getting torn up in tournmanets.
protoss is now smashing everyone, even the terrans are crying protoss op, wehre before it was zerg saying it and noone listened because it was zerg being bad and biased.
how do you explain this inconsistency?
Protoss -> most GMs -> zerg cries op and noone cares -> always beaten in tournaments -> learn how to macro -> beating everyone in tournaments and now terran cries op and noone cares (issue is the same for T as for Z, the colossus, HERP!) -> protoss on top now that they learned to macro.
how is it that protoss is so good its owning Terrans at Terrancraft, when protoss is UP by so many years of tournament data, while being most represented in GM by sc2ranks data?
So many inconsistencies!
And here is my explanation of what we're seeing. There's a thing called a skill ceiling. You never go above the skill ceiling, because if you need X skill and Y skill, Z skill to have is useless until your opponent gets X skill and Y skill too. protoss wasn't macroing like they are now because it wasn't necessary to beat Z or T reliably. they stuck with the whole 14 mineral probes 2 base deathball because it worked vs Z mostly, and since Z represents a majority of players, they just accepted the T losses. when Z started cranking up their macro (raising the skill ceiling), protoss had to reach up again for more skills (getting their own macro), and then it settle again with P being favored early, mid, and early-late game while Z has its T3 deathball eventually.
an analogy could simplifiy the idea behind skill ceiling progression.
Take the burrow banes. burrow banes would never exist if terran didn't spam marines. It wouldnt even have been created because there's no need for it, and because of no need, noone uses it. someone might think of it, but it proves impractical and useless as long as terran isnt using marines. so its a skill that noone will reach for because it doesn't take this to beat terran, it takes X. tio get to the skill level of X+BB, means that terran ups their own skill.
So in a way a lot of people saying "let the game settle before balance changes" were right to a degree. However we can still see that roach was overpwoered as 1 supply 2 armor, but now zerg is underpowered on ground vs coloss, and that's just as evident, and I think people have chosen to ignore that. seems like zerg gets a nerf when a unit appears overpowered, while colossus has never been touched.
maybe now that protoss are getting into the high end macro skill ceiling vs T and Z, and showing how much coloss really is bad, it'll get the nerf it's needed.
User was warned for this post
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On March 01 2012 17:05 XRaDiiX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 16:41 Coramoor wrote:
so Gatored, who's strongest matchup was pvz was destroying the likes of DRG and now you think protoss is the op race, wonderful theory you have there No what i mean is at that level of play Protoss is a strong race considering how many players of this calibre have taken out Korean pros on several occasions and this is extremely rare for Zerg/Terrans of that Calibre to do this.
that doesn't make any sense, your argument is that protoss is a strong race because underrated, imo, foreign pros beat Korean pros in tournament while very few zerg and terran mediocre pros do so. If your logic held, then MC, Inca, Genius, Huk, et al would be demolishing the competition non stop, you're trying to find basis for opness in a place where it logically can't exist
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On March 01 2012 17:06 Spieltor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 14:56 HardlyNever wrote:
So you have an idea.. based on no numbers and faulty logic.
If it were so "easy" for "mediocre" protoss foreigners to take games off of high level koreans, why wouldn't high level korean protoss players be doing it more often? How would you explain that inconsistency?
Your entire "theory" doesn't even make logic sense, much less have any grounding in results (that apparently you want other people to find?)
in the same way that zerg never used infestors, cried about protoss deathball, then found infestors and got infestors nerfed, was back to being the underdog, then found mass muta and phoenix got buffed. meanwhile, protoss always went 1 base. protoss has recently figured out they can macro just as well as zerg and terran. Remember that zerg was "the macro race" because it naturally progressed to that stage. Season 1 and 2 games from PROS tended to be 2 base 30 minute affairs. Now its 5 or 6 base 20 minute affairs. terran and protoss whined about zerg being able to be ahead on economy (which they HAVE TO BE BY GAME DESIGN), until T and P started actually macroing on their own and learning how to maximize their macro abiltiies. mass FFE games later, P is back on par with zerg and rolling with the deathballs again. Protoss has been stated as "the underdog" all this time. protoss has always had the highest representation in GM. protoss was always getting torn up in tournmanets. protoss is now smashing everyone, even the terrans are crying protoss op, wehre before it was zerg saying it and noone listened because it was zerg being bad and biased. how do you explain this inconsistency? Protoss -> most GMs -> zerg cries op and noone cares -> always beaten in tournaments -> learn how to macro -> beating everyone in tournaments and now terran cries op and noone cares (issue is the same for T as for Z, the colossus, HERP!) -> protoss on top now that they learned to macro. how is it that protoss is so good its owning Terrans at Terrancraft, when protoss is UP by so many years of tournament data, while being most represented in GM by sc2ranks data? So many inconsistencies!
out of idle curiosity, what exactly was the last high level tournament that a protoss won?
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On March 01 2012 17:08 Coramoor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 17:05 XRaDiiX wrote:On March 01 2012 16:41 Coramoor wrote:
so Gatored, who's strongest matchup was pvz was destroying the likes of DRG and now you think protoss is the op race, wonderful theory you have there No what i mean is at that level of play Protoss is a strong race considering how many players of this calibre have taken out Korean pros on several occasions and this is extremely rare for Zerg/Terrans of that Calibre to do this. that doesn't make any sense, your argument is that protoss is a strong race because underrated, imo, foreign pros beat Korean pros in tournament while very few zerg and terran mediocre pros do so. If your logic held, then MC, Inca, Genius, Huk, et al would be demolishing the competition non stop, you're trying to find basis for opness in a place where it logically can't exist
read above. a race could be overpowered, but its OPness can be hidden by the fact that the players have hit their personal skill ceilings with the race because they are achieving results they think are good enough. when Z or T finds some other little advantage, it'll force P to grow some more. We're finally getting to a stage where macro is completely maxed out in skill terms, so now we get to see what people do with that macro.
given the huge ass raping terrans getting from coloss, I think we're seeing a future where protoss proves once and for all they have too good of a unit in the T3 coloss.
no race in brood war had T3 splash.
T and Z dont have T3 splash, unless you count HSM which is like spammable nukes for some reason.
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On March 01 2012 17:15 Coramoor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 17:06 Spieltor wrote:On March 01 2012 14:56 HardlyNever wrote:
So you have an idea.. based on no numbers and faulty logic.
If it were so "easy" for "mediocre" protoss foreigners to take games off of high level koreans, why wouldn't high level korean protoss players be doing it more often? How would you explain that inconsistency?
Your entire "theory" doesn't even make logic sense, much less have any grounding in results (that apparently you want other people to find?)
in the same way that zerg never used infestors, cried about protoss deathball, then found infestors and got infestors nerfed, was back to being the underdog, then found mass muta and phoenix got buffed. meanwhile, protoss always went 1 base. protoss has recently figured out they can macro just as well as zerg and terran. Remember that zerg was "the macro race" because it naturally progressed to that stage. Season 1 and 2 games from PROS tended to be 2 base 30 minute affairs. Now its 5 or 6 base 20 minute affairs. terran and protoss whined about zerg being able to be ahead on economy (which they HAVE TO BE BY GAME DESIGN), until T and P started actually macroing on their own and learning how to maximize their macro abiltiies. mass FFE games later, P is back on par with zerg and rolling with the deathballs again. Protoss has been stated as "the underdog" all this time. protoss has always had the highest representation in GM. protoss was always getting torn up in tournmanets. protoss is now smashing everyone, even the terrans are crying protoss op, wehre before it was zerg saying it and noone listened because it was zerg being bad and biased. how do you explain this inconsistency? Protoss -> most GMs -> zerg cries op and noone cares -> always beaten in tournaments -> learn how to macro -> beating everyone in tournaments and now terran cries op and noone cares (issue is the same for T as for Z, the colossus, HERP!) -> protoss on top now that they learned to macro. how is it that protoss is so good its owning Terrans at Terrancraft, when protoss is UP by so many years of tournament data, while being most represented in GM by sc2ranks data? So many inconsistencies! out of idle curiosity, what exactly was the last high level tournament that a protoss won?
On March 01 2012 15:42 red4ce wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 14:56 HardlyNever wrote:
So you have an idea.. based on no numbers and faulty logic.
If it were so "easy" for "mediocre" protoss foreigners to take games off of high level koreans, why wouldn't high level korean protoss players be doing it more often? How would you explain that inconsistency?
Your entire "theory" doesn't even make logic sense, much less have any grounding in results (that apparently you want other people to find?)
Have you, per chance, watched any GSL this season at all?
User was warned for this post
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EPT
