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On March 01 2012 17:19 Spieltor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 17:08 Coramoor wrote:On March 01 2012 17:05 XRaDiiX wrote:On March 01 2012 16:41 Coramoor wrote:
so Gatored, who's strongest matchup was pvz was destroying the likes of DRG and now you think protoss is the op race, wonderful theory you have there No what i mean is at that level of play Protoss is a strong race considering how many players of this calibre have taken out Korean pros on several occasions and this is extremely rare for Zerg/Terrans of that Calibre to do this. that doesn't make any sense, your argument is that protoss is a strong race because underrated, imo, foreign pros beat Korean pros in tournament while very few zerg and terran mediocre pros do so. If your logic held, then MC, Inca, Genius, Huk, et al would be demolishing the competition non stop, you're trying to find basis for opness in a place where it logically can't exist read above. a race could be overpowered, but its OPness can be hidden by the fact that the players have hit their personal skill ceilings with the race because they are achieving results they think are good enough. when Z or T finds some other little advantage, it'll force P to grow some more. We're finally getting to a stage where macro is completely maxed out in skill terms, so now we get to see what people do with that macro. given the huge ass raping terrans getting from coloss, I think we're seeing a future where protoss proves once and for all they have too good of a unit in the T3 coloss. no race in brood war had T3 splash. T and Z dont have T3 splash, unless you count HSM which is like spammable nukes for some reason.
high templar was t3 in broodwar, so that doesn't make sense(science vessel could also count technically), and unless you're trying to claim that every single protoss player has hit their respective cap but the zerg and terran players haven't that makes absolutely no sense. Also the colossus isn't the "problem" in tvp
On March 01 2012 17:19 Spieltor wrote:
On March 01 2012 15:42 red4ce wrote:
Show nested quote +
Have you, per chance, watched any GSL this season at all?
As to you quoting this, 4 protoss in the top 8 is suddenly super op? what...
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On March 01 2012 17:38 Coramoor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 17:19 Spieltor wrote:On March 01 2012 17:08 Coramoor wrote:On March 01 2012 17:05 XRaDiiX wrote:On March 01 2012 16:41 Coramoor wrote:
so Gatored, who's strongest matchup was pvz was destroying the likes of DRG and now you think protoss is the op race, wonderful theory you have there No what i mean is at that level of play Protoss is a strong race considering how many players of this calibre have taken out Korean pros on several occasions and this is extremely rare for Zerg/Terrans of that Calibre to do this. that doesn't make any sense, your argument is that protoss is a strong race because underrated, imo, foreign pros beat Korean pros in tournament while very few zerg and terran mediocre pros do so. If your logic held, then MC, Inca, Genius, Huk, et al would be demolishing the competition non stop, you're trying to find basis for opness in a place where it logically can't exist read above. a race could be overpowered, but its OPness can be hidden by the fact that the players have hit their personal skill ceilings with the race because they are achieving results they think are good enough. when Z or T finds some other little advantage, it'll force P to grow some more. We're finally getting to a stage where macro is completely maxed out in skill terms, so now we get to see what people do with that macro. given the huge ass raping terrans getting from coloss, I think we're seeing a future where protoss proves once and for all they have too good of a unit in the T3 coloss. no race in brood war had T3 splash. T and Z dont have T3 splash, unless you count HSM which is like spammable nukes for some reason. high templar was t3 in broodwar, so that doesn't make sense(science vessel could also count technically), and unless you're trying to claim that every single protoss player has hit their respective cap but the zerg and terran players haven't that makes absolutely no sense. Also the colossus isn't the "problem" in tvp Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 17:19 Spieltor wrote:
On March 01 2012 15:42 red4ce wrote:
Show nested quote +
Have you, per chance, watched any GSL this season at all?
As to you quoting this, 4 protoss in the top 8 is suddenly super op? what...
you're looking at stats instead of how it happens. typical.
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On March 01 2012 17:41 Spieltor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 17:38 Coramoor wrote:On March 01 2012 17:19 Spieltor wrote:On March 01 2012 17:08 Coramoor wrote:On March 01 2012 17:05 XRaDiiX wrote:On March 01 2012 16:41 Coramoor wrote:
so Gatored, who's strongest matchup was pvz was destroying the likes of DRG and now you think protoss is the op race, wonderful theory you have there No what i mean is at that level of play Protoss is a strong race considering how many players of this calibre have taken out Korean pros on several occasions and this is extremely rare for Zerg/Terrans of that Calibre to do this. that doesn't make any sense, your argument is that protoss is a strong race because underrated, imo, foreign pros beat Korean pros in tournament while very few zerg and terran mediocre pros do so. If your logic held, then MC, Inca, Genius, Huk, et al would be demolishing the competition non stop, you're trying to find basis for opness in a place where it logically can't exist read above. a race could be overpowered, but its OPness can be hidden by the fact that the players have hit their personal skill ceilings with the race because they are achieving results they think are good enough. when Z or T finds some other little advantage, it'll force P to grow some more. We're finally getting to a stage where macro is completely maxed out in skill terms, so now we get to see what people do with that macro. given the huge ass raping terrans getting from coloss, I think we're seeing a future where protoss proves once and for all they have too good of a unit in the T3 coloss. no race in brood war had T3 splash. T and Z dont have T3 splash, unless you count HSM which is like spammable nukes for some reason. high templar was t3 in broodwar, so that doesn't make sense(science vessel could also count technically), and unless you're trying to claim that every single protoss player has hit their respective cap but the zerg and terran players haven't that makes absolutely no sense. Also the colossus isn't the "problem" in tvp On March 01 2012 17:19 Spieltor wrote:
On March 01 2012 15:42 red4ce wrote:
Show nested quote +
Have you, per chance, watched any GSL this season at all?
As to you quoting this, 4 protoss in the top 8 is suddenly super op? what... you're looking at stats instead of how it happens. typical.
that's completely nonsensical, you make an incorrect argument about the problem in tvp, talk about how pvz has always been imba and every time it's not, it gets nerfed, and then tell me, well the stats aren't the problem, it's that all protoss players suck and if i watched every game i'd know that, so what has so magically been demonstrated in these games that shows how incredibly overpowered protoss is
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On March 01 2012 17:08 Coramoor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 17:05 XRaDiiX wrote:On March 01 2012 16:41 Coramoor wrote:
so Gatored, who's strongest matchup was pvz was destroying the likes of DRG and now you think protoss is the op race, wonderful theory you have there No what i mean is at that level of play Protoss is a strong race considering how many players of this calibre have taken out Korean pros on several occasions and this is extremely rare for Zerg/Terrans of that Calibre to do this. that doesn't make any sense, your argument is that protoss is a strong race because underrated, imo, foreign pros beat Korean pros in tournament while very few zerg and terran mediocre pros do so. If your logic held, then MC, Inca, Genius, Huk, et al would be demolishing the competition non stop, you're trying to find basis for opness in a place where it logically can't exist
Your completely missing the point i'm talking about the skill level of Protoss at the Foreigner level per se from Gatored to Sase TT1 Grubby Level being able to smash Koreans in BO3's.
I'm not speaking about the Likes of MC or the strongest Protosses im talking about at that lower skill level the Protoss race has an edge compared to Terran and Zergs at that same level in the foreign SCENE.
The Naniwa,Huk They are Outliars so we can keep them out of the discussion because i pointed out they were training in Korea for a long time so now we can consider them Korean Level because they have proven they can compete with them consistently and get GM in Korea etc...
Example we rarely EVER see Terrans or Zergs Foreigners that are Mediocre take games off Koreans in International Tournaments. (except a la Stephano he is an outliar).
But we SEE tons of Protoss at this level taking out Koreans. I can name a few off the top of my head for now i will corroborate with further data and compiled lists and evidence later.
Grubby 2-0 Losira
Gatored 2-0'd some Korean Terran
Gatored almost beat DRG as well at IEM NY i think.
Feast taking games of MMA almost beating him at IEM Sao Paulo.
And a bunch more times this has happened with Mid-tier Protoss beating or almost beating the best Koreans in the world.
I will make a list later.. when i can find help and time.
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On March 01 2012 17:06 Spieltor wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 01 2012 14:56 HardlyNever wrote:
So you have an idea.. based on no numbers and faulty logic.
If it were so "easy" for "mediocre" protoss foreigners to take games off of high level koreans, why wouldn't high level korean protoss players be doing it more often? How would you explain that inconsistency?
Your entire "theory" doesn't even make logic sense, much less have any grounding in results (that apparently you want other people to find?)
On March 01 2012 17:06 Spieltor wrote:in the same way that zerg never used infestors, cried about protoss deathball, then found infestors and got infestors nerfed, was back to being the underdog, then found mass muta and phoenix got buffed. meanwhile, protoss always went 1 base. protoss has recently figured out they can macro just as well as zerg and terran. Remember that zerg was "the macro race" because it naturally progressed to that stage. Season 1 and 2 games from PROS tended to be 2 base 30 minute affairs. Now its 5 or 6 base 20 minute affairs. terran and protoss whined about zerg being able to be ahead on economy (which they HAVE TO BE BY GAME DESIGN), until T and P started actually macroing on their own and learning how to maximize their macro abiltiies. mass FFE games later, P is back on par with zerg and rolling with the deathballs again. Protoss has been stated as "the underdog" all this time. protoss has always had the highest representation in GM. protoss was always getting torn up in tournmanets. protoss is now smashing everyone, even the terrans are crying protoss op, wehre before it was zerg saying it and noone listened because it was zerg being bad and biased. how do you explain this inconsistency? Protoss -> most GMs -> zerg cries op and noone cares -> always beaten in tournaments -> learn how to macro -> beating everyone in tournaments and now terran cries op and noone cares (issue is the same for T as for Z, the colossus, HERP!) -> protoss on top now that they learned to macro. how is it that protoss is so good its owning Terrans at Terrancraft, when protoss is UP by so many years of tournament data, while being most represented in GM by sc2ranks data? So many inconsistencies! And here is my explanation of what we're seeing. There's a thing called a skill ceiling. You never go above the skill ceiling, because if you need X skill and Y skill, Z skill to have is useless until your opponent gets X skill and Y skill too. protoss wasn't macroing like they are now because it wasn't necessary to beat Z or T reliably. they stuck with the whole 14 mineral probes 2 base deathball because it worked vs Z mostly, and since Z represents a majority of players, they just accepted the T losses. when Z started cranking up their macro (raising the skill ceiling), protoss had to reach up again for more skills (getting their own macro), and then it settle again with P being favored early, mid, and early-late game while Z has its T3 deathball eventually. an analogy could simplifiy the idea behind skill ceiling progression. Take the burrow banes. burrow banes would never exist if terran didn't spam marines. It wouldnt even have been created because there's no need for it, and because of no need, noone uses it. someone might think of it, but it proves impractical and useless as long as terran isnt using marines. so its a skill that noone will reach for because it doesn't take this to beat terran, it takes X. tio get to the skill level of X+BB, means that terran ups their own skill. So in a way a lot of people saying "let the game settle before balance changes" were right to a degree. However we can still see that roach was overpwoered as 1 supply 2 armor, but now zerg is underpowered on ground vs coloss, and that's just as evident, and I think people have chosen to ignore that. seems like zerg gets a nerf when a unit appears overpowered, while colossus has never been touched. maybe now that protoss are getting into the high end macro skill ceiling vs T and Z, and showing how much coloss really is bad, it'll get the nerf it's needed.
Thank you i will touch up on your points after the Code A GSL matches.
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Just did the data for this year's big competitions (IEM Kiev, IEM San Paulo, Homestory IV, MLG Arena) and it's actually reasonably close:
26 wins for Terrans against Koreans
30 wins for Protoss against Koreans
29 wins for Zergs agasint Koreans
If we discard Stephano, Huk and Naniwa.... (which seems completely arbitrary but that's apparently what you want) it is:
26 wins for Terrans against Koreans
24 wins for Protoss against Koreans
25 wins for Zergs against Koreans
That's in terms of games not best of 3's, you can check the data over here:
Google Docs Spreadsheet
For the sake of this seleCt is considered a foreigner, but didn't win against any koreans. ReaL, Pheonix and viOLet on the other hand were considered koreans despite living outside of korea. What a crazy life we lead...
If we remove the ambiguous koreans though (violet, Real and Pheonix) but also don't conisder them foreigners for some reason... then it changes to
22 wins for Terrans
26 for Protoss
22 for Zergs
Then removing the "outliers" (Huk, Stephano, Naniwa)
You're left with
22 for Terrans
19 for Protoss
18 for Zergs
Basically what I'm saying is you can stretch this data, all kinds of ways, ultimately it's actually pretty close, doubly so when you consider how many of the protosses are players who train 100% of their time in korea. I didn't remove Sase, but he only adds 2 points for protoss.
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"mediocre"
Who is a non-Korean mediocre P, Z, T?
You name Grubby as a mediocre Protoss.
Z - Ret? Sheth? Darkforce?
T - Demuslim? dde? illusion?
P - Elfi? White Ra?
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On March 01 2012 18:31 Dingobloo wrote:Just did the data for this year's big competitions (IEM Kiev, IEM San Paulo, Homestory IV, MLG Arena) and it's actually reasonably close: 26 wins for Terrans against Koreans 30 wins for Protoss against Koreans 29 wins for Zergs agasint Koreans If we discard Stephano, Huk and Naniwa.... (which seems completely arbitrary but that's apparently what you want) it is: 26 wins for Terrans against Koreans 24 wins for Protoss against Koreans 25 wins for Zergs against Koreans That's in terms of games not best of 3's, you can check the data over here: Google Docs SpreadsheetFor the sake of this seleCt is considered a foreigner, but didn't win against any koreans. ReaL, Pheonix and viOLet on the other hand were considered koreans despite living outside of korea. What a crazy life we lead... If we remove the ambiguous koreans though (violet, Real and Pheonix) but also don't conisder them foreigners for some reason... then it changes to 22 wins for Terrans 26 for Protoss 22 for Zergs Then removing the "outliers" (Huk, Stephano, Naniwa) You're left with 22 for Terrans 19 for Protoss 18 for Zergs Basically what I'm saying is you can stretch this data, all kinds of ways, ultimately it's actually pretty close, doubly so when you consider how many of the protosses are players who train 100% of their time in korea. I didn't remove Sase, but he only adds 2 points for protoss.
Thank you  Imagine that... it isn't actually completely favoring any one race.
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On March 01 2012 17:38 Coramoor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 17:19 Spieltor wrote:On March 01 2012 17:08 Coramoor wrote:On March 01 2012 17:05 XRaDiiX wrote:On March 01 2012 16:41 Coramoor wrote:
so Gatored, who's strongest matchup was pvz was destroying the likes of DRG and now you think protoss is the op race, wonderful theory you have there No what i mean is at that level of play Protoss is a strong race considering how many players of this calibre have taken out Korean pros on several occasions and this is extremely rare for Zerg/Terrans of that Calibre to do this. that doesn't make any sense, your argument is that protoss is a strong race because underrated, imo, foreign pros beat Korean pros in tournament while very few zerg and terran mediocre pros do so. If your logic held, then MC, Inca, Genius, Huk, et al would be demolishing the competition non stop, you're trying to find basis for opness in a place where it logically can't exist read above. a race could be overpowered, but its OPness can be hidden by the fact that the players have hit their personal skill ceilings with the race because they are achieving results they think are good enough. when Z or T finds some other little advantage, it'll force P to grow some more. We're finally getting to a stage where macro is completely maxed out in skill terms, so now we get to see what people do with that macro. given the huge ass raping terrans getting from coloss, I think we're seeing a future where protoss proves once and for all they have too good of a unit in the T3 coloss. no race in brood war had T3 splash. T and Z dont have T3 splash, unless you count HSM which is like spammable nukes for some reason. high templar was t3 in broodwar, so that doesn't make sense(science vessel could also count technically), and unless you're trying to claim that every single protoss player has hit their respective cap but the zerg and terran players haven't that makes absolutely no sense. Also the colossus isn't the "problem" in tvp Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 17:19 Spieltor wrote:
On March 01 2012 15:42 red4ce wrote:
Show nested quote +
Have you, per chance, watched any GSL this season at all?
As to you quoting this, 4 protoss in the top 8 is suddenly super op? what...
you're really comparing an energy dependent, low hp, slow unit that requires positioning to a fast unit that ignores positioning requirements by walking over any units? Lurker, tank, reaver. T2. templar, defiler, science vessel. T3.
sc2. Tank, infestor, T2. colossus, HT T3.
not rocket science.
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On March 02 2012 04:24 Spieltor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 17:38 Coramoor wrote:On March 01 2012 17:19 Spieltor wrote:On March 01 2012 17:08 Coramoor wrote:On March 01 2012 17:05 XRaDiiX wrote:On March 01 2012 16:41 Coramoor wrote:
so Gatored, who's strongest matchup was pvz was destroying the likes of DRG and now you think protoss is the op race, wonderful theory you have there No what i mean is at that level of play Protoss is a strong race considering how many players of this calibre have taken out Korean pros on several occasions and this is extremely rare for Zerg/Terrans of that Calibre to do this. that doesn't make any sense, your argument is that protoss is a strong race because underrated, imo, foreign pros beat Korean pros in tournament while very few zerg and terran mediocre pros do so. If your logic held, then MC, Inca, Genius, Huk, et al would be demolishing the competition non stop, you're trying to find basis for opness in a place where it logically can't exist read above. a race could be overpowered, but its OPness can be hidden by the fact that the players have hit their personal skill ceilings with the race because they are achieving results they think are good enough. when Z or T finds some other little advantage, it'll force P to grow some more. We're finally getting to a stage where macro is completely maxed out in skill terms, so now we get to see what people do with that macro. given the huge ass raping terrans getting from coloss, I think we're seeing a future where protoss proves once and for all they have too good of a unit in the T3 coloss. no race in brood war had T3 splash. T and Z dont have T3 splash, unless you count HSM which is like spammable nukes for some reason. high templar was t3 in broodwar, so that doesn't make sense(science vessel could also count technically), and unless you're trying to claim that every single protoss player has hit their respective cap but the zerg and terran players haven't that makes absolutely no sense. Also the colossus isn't the "problem" in tvp On March 01 2012 17:19 Spieltor wrote:
On March 01 2012 15:42 red4ce wrote:
Show nested quote +
Have you, per chance, watched any GSL this season at all?
As to you quoting this, 4 protoss in the top 8 is suddenly super op? what... you're really comparing an energy dependent, low hp, slow unit that requires positioning to a fast unit that ignores positioning requirements by walking over any units? Lurker, tank, reaver. T2. templar, defiler, science vessel. T3. sc2. Tank, infestor, T2. colossus, HT T3. not rocket science.
ghost is also a splash damage unit against protoss and the colossus really isn't that fast, it can't run away from any unit in the game successfully except thors and hydras. also banelings are 1.5 tier splash damage, I'm sorry but your claims are rather baseless
so
T1.5 baneling T2 infestor ghost tank T3 Colossus HT
So yea if you let protoss get up a deathball you're going to lose, This has been long established, although broodlord infestor is pretty good at shattering a deathball
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On March 02 2012 06:20 Coramoor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 04:24 Spieltor wrote:On March 01 2012 17:38 Coramoor wrote:On March 01 2012 17:19 Spieltor wrote:On March 01 2012 17:08 Coramoor wrote:On March 01 2012 17:05 XRaDiiX wrote:On March 01 2012 16:41 Coramoor wrote:
so Gatored, who's strongest matchup was pvz was destroying the likes of DRG and now you think protoss is the op race, wonderful theory you have there No what i mean is at that level of play Protoss is a strong race considering how many players of this calibre have taken out Korean pros on several occasions and this is extremely rare for Zerg/Terrans of that Calibre to do this. that doesn't make any sense, your argument is that protoss is a strong race because underrated, imo, foreign pros beat Korean pros in tournament while very few zerg and terran mediocre pros do so. If your logic held, then MC, Inca, Genius, Huk, et al would be demolishing the competition non stop, you're trying to find basis for opness in a place where it logically can't exist read above. a race could be overpowered, but its OPness can be hidden by the fact that the players have hit their personal skill ceilings with the race because they are achieving results they think are good enough. when Z or T finds some other little advantage, it'll force P to grow some more. We're finally getting to a stage where macro is completely maxed out in skill terms, so now we get to see what people do with that macro. given the huge ass raping terrans getting from coloss, I think we're seeing a future where protoss proves once and for all they have too good of a unit in the T3 coloss. no race in brood war had T3 splash. T and Z dont have T3 splash, unless you count HSM which is like spammable nukes for some reason. high templar was t3 in broodwar, so that doesn't make sense(science vessel could also count technically), and unless you're trying to claim that every single protoss player has hit their respective cap but the zerg and terran players haven't that makes absolutely no sense. Also the colossus isn't the "problem" in tvp On March 01 2012 17:19 Spieltor wrote:
On March 01 2012 15:42 red4ce wrote:
Show nested quote +
Have you, per chance, watched any GSL this season at all?
As to you quoting this, 4 protoss in the top 8 is suddenly super op? what... you're really comparing an energy dependent, low hp, slow unit that requires positioning to a fast unit that ignores positioning requirements by walking over any units? Lurker, tank, reaver. T2. templar, defiler, science vessel. T3. sc2. Tank, infestor, T2. colossus, HT T3. not rocket science. ghost is also a splash damage unit against protoss and the colossus really isn't that fast, it can't run away from any unit in the game successfully except thors and hydras. also banelings are 1.5 tier splash damage, I'm sorry but your claims are rather baseless so T1.5 baneling T2 infestor ghost tank T3 Colossus HT So yea if you let protoss get up a deathball you're going to lose, This has been long established, although broodlord infestor is pretty good at shattering a deathball
we could see this argum,ent in chess. if one side moves 4 pawns and gets 4 queens on the board, uits auto win.
However to do that, they must move past the other player, meaning a good player can stop it. Or both players can turtle.
in sc2, if zerg and protoss turtle, zerg cant harass protoss really well except for muta, and even thats going out of style quick as protoss learn to deal with it. If protoss and zerg successfully turtle, protoss has its deathball. zerg does not because protoss can get its deathball 5-10 minutes sooner and then break a zerg turtle.
THat means that to beat the clock, zerg has to be aggressive and deny that third base, or auto lose to a passive expanding deathball toss. in true competitive games, this does not happen. thats why I cited the chess analogy.
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Sweden33719 Posts
If you want you can turn protoss into a pretty hilariously luckbased race, yes (especially if your opponent doesnt know thats what you want to do).
But it is also not like that is a great way to ensure consistency vs someone you think you are better than.
Probably easiest for Protoss to take a game vs better players vs Terran, easiest for Terran to take games vs better players off Zerg, and for zerg Im not sure which is easier.
EDIT: Actually you know what, you can turn everything pretty luckbased -.just depends on whether your opponent knows you are going to try to do that or not, and in which direction you are gambling.
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It seems to me protoss just has the most viable and strongest all ins so it's easier for them to take games off of stronger opponents.
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You are confusing correlation and causation. There may in fact be a correlation between foreigner protoss beating Koreans that is higher then the other races, however that is not the causation that you can logically prove.
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On March 01 2012 18:31 Dingobloo wrote:Just did the data for this year's big competitions (IEM Kiev, IEM San Paulo, Homestory IV, MLG Arena) and it's actually reasonably close: 26 wins for Terrans against Koreans 30 wins for Protoss against Koreans 29 wins for Zergs agasint Koreans If we discard Stephano, Huk and Naniwa.... (which seems completely arbitrary but that's apparently what you want) it is: 26 wins for Terrans against Koreans 24 wins for Protoss against Koreans 25 wins for Zergs against Koreans That's in terms of games not best of 3's, you can check the data over here: Google Docs SpreadsheetFor the sake of this seleCt is considered a foreigner, but didn't win against any koreans. ReaL, Pheonix and viOLet on the other hand were considered koreans despite living outside of korea. What a crazy life we lead... If we remove the ambiguous koreans though (violet, Real and Pheonix) but also don't conisder them foreigners for some reason... then it changes to 22 wins for Terrans 26 for Protoss 22 for Zergs Then removing the "outliers" (Huk, Stephano, Naniwa) You're left with 22 for Terrans 19 for Protoss 18 for Zergs Basically what I'm saying is you can stretch this data, all kinds of ways, ultimately it's actually pretty close, doubly so when you consider how many of the protosses are players who train 100% of their time in korea. I didn't remove Sase, but he only adds 2 points for protoss.
This guy did the work that the op should have done. Very well done and I think that it speaks for itself when saying that its very balanced even with the "outliers". I don't see the justification for the thread past some werid anti protoss bias.
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OP is gonna hate it when he has to do his own data collection. My biggest problem with this thread is that everyone is run ing around stating their anecdotal opinions as fact without any kind of data. Go get the data, come back, and make the thread worth everyone's time, not a debate that does nothing to help us understand your question any better.
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lol protoss op i bet the bad protoss statistically win more against koreans
*looks at stats*
oh lol the stats are misleading protoss is still easy and whichever race i play is so much harder
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On March 01 2012 17:15 Coramoor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 17:06 Spieltor wrote:On March 01 2012 14:56 HardlyNever wrote:
So you have an idea.. based on no numbers and faulty logic.
If it were so "easy" for "mediocre" protoss foreigners to take games off of high level koreans, why wouldn't high level korean protoss players be doing it more often? How would you explain that inconsistency?
Your entire "theory" doesn't even make logic sense, much less have any grounding in results (that apparently you want other people to find?)
in the same way that zerg never used infestors, cried about protoss deathball, then found infestors and got infestors nerfed, was back to being the underdog, then found mass muta and phoenix got buffed. meanwhile, protoss always went 1 base. protoss has recently figured out they can macro just as well as zerg and terran. Remember that zerg was "the macro race" because it naturally progressed to that stage. Season 1 and 2 games from PROS tended to be 2 base 30 minute affairs. Now its 5 or 6 base 20 minute affairs. terran and protoss whined about zerg being able to be ahead on economy (which they HAVE TO BE BY GAME DESIGN), until T and P started actually macroing on their own and learning how to maximize their macro abiltiies. mass FFE games later, P is back on par with zerg and rolling with the deathballs again. Protoss has been stated as "the underdog" all this time. protoss has always had the highest representation in GM. protoss was always getting torn up in tournmanets. protoss is now smashing everyone, even the terrans are crying protoss op, wehre before it was zerg saying it and noone listened because it was zerg being bad and biased. how do you explain this inconsistency? Protoss -> most GMs -> zerg cries op and noone cares -> always beaten in tournaments -> learn how to macro -> beating everyone in tournaments and now terran cries op and noone cares (issue is the same for T as for Z, the colossus, HERP!) -> protoss on top now that they learned to macro. how is it that protoss is so good its owning Terrans at Terrancraft, when protoss is UP by so many years of tournament data, while being most represented in GM by sc2ranks data? So many inconsistencies! out of idle curiosity, what exactly was the last high level tournament that a protoss won?
HerO won dreamhack
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On March 01 2012 18:31 Dingobloo wrote:Just did the data for this year's big competitions (IEM Kiev, IEM San Paulo, Homestory IV, MLG Arena) and it's actually reasonably close: 26 wins for Terrans against Koreans 30 wins for Protoss against Koreans 29 wins for Zergs agasint Koreans If we discard Stephano, Huk and Naniwa.... (which seems completely arbitrary but that's apparently what you want) it is: 26 wins for Terrans against Koreans 24 wins for Protoss against Koreans 25 wins for Zergs against Koreans That's in terms of games not best of 3's, you can check the data over here: Google Docs SpreadsheetFor the sake of this seleCt is considered a foreigner, but didn't win against any koreans. ReaL, Pheonix and viOLet on the other hand were considered koreans despite living outside of korea. What a crazy life we lead... If we remove the ambiguous koreans though (violet, Real and Pheonix) but also don't conisder them foreigners for some reason... then it changes to 22 wins for Terrans 26 for Protoss 22 for Zergs Then removing the "outliers" (Huk, Stephano, Naniwa) You're left with 22 for Terrans 19 for Protoss 18 for Zergs Basically what I'm saying is you can stretch this data, all kinds of ways, ultimately it's actually pretty close, doubly so when you consider how many of the protosses are players who train 100% of their time in korea. I didn't remove Sase, but he only adds 2 points for protoss.
Thank you good sir, this should be added in the OP with this man's name.
Also it's incredible how close it is, i would have expected foreign terrans to be a bit lower, but it looks well balanced no matter how you stretch it, i'd go with the first one though.
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EPT
