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If you guys don't know who or what RIOT is, they're the company that makes LoL. I might be making a broad generalization for the majority of people who play LoL, but from what I've seen, it seems as though most people think RIOT is doing a good job, and are good game developers. Their PR is pretty good, they explain things where they need to, but in my eyes, it's just a disguise for their shitty ass developments and complete failures.
This blog isn't for the purposes of saying LoL is a bad game. I enjoy LoL and its own style compared to dota, but when I see how riot decides to handle things I honestly cannot fathom how anyone cannot be upset with them.
It's been... 2 years? since the game has come out and they have yet to create a replay system. Looking at match history tells you nothing about the game and navigating through players you played against is nonexistent when you log out. You have to spend literally over 300 dollars to obtain every hero (roughly 7 dollars per hero). You can get "IP" to buy heroes, sure, but you typically need 60+ games to get a single tier 3 hero. They have a rune system so you're forced to invest your precious IP into maximizing your stats, WHICH IN ALL REALITY IS JUST A SCAM TO GET MORE MONEY RATHER THAN ADD DIVERSITY TO THE GAME. Their custom game making is UTTER shit and every time I watch a tournament they have to delay the fucking game for like 10 minutes to remake due to an error or whatever. OH AND IT'S ALSO HILARIOUS WHEN PROS HAVE TO REMAKE GAMES CAUSE THEY CAN'T SWAP CAUSE THEY DON'T OWN THE DAMN HERO LOL.
So what are they doing besides sitting on their ass doing nothing? They release a rehashed hero with rehashed abilities from the rest of the pool. Yep, just add in some form of aoe damage, target dmg ability, a skillshot and we're ready to go! Oh, and let's add in like 5 skins cause that's what people want. Skins for the same hero which you can buy for the cheap price of 7 fucking dollars (not including the hero itself). Even when they're so successful that they can even put out a 5 million dollar tournament so that they're not outdone by Dota2 in attracting new players yet they can't add the simplest of functions to their game for some reason even though every moba before it has done it easily.
Seriously, anyone who thinks any of this is fair or reasonable is out of their fucking mind. I like the extreme measures people go to justify spending 300 dollars on this game. Basically in terms of entertainment per hour or saying they played WoW and payed 15 dollars a month. Guys, I'd just like you to know that in Dota you get every hero for fucking free after you buy Warcraft 3 for 20 bucks. In HoN you got every hero for 30 dollars when they released it. The whole LoL business model is set up around attracting as many naive people who have never played a moba in their life and to get them to spend as much money on this game as possible. It's equivalent to a korean MMO in terms of "free" and they want you to grind it out in the same fashion.
 
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Free to Play business model is becoming more and more popular.
People like being able to try things before they pay for them. FTP has essentially replaced demos from back in the day.
I think a big part of the reason people like Riot as a company is that they are very open about a lot of things. They release a lot of youtube videos rationalizing their decisions on changes. They support LoL as an esport pretty heavily by throwing tournament stream links on your login page.
Overall they're just more personably and relatable compared to an uber company like Activision-Blizzard who releases a patch right before a major tournament and don't really give a shit.
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And that's where I'm saying everything they do is for the sole purpose of gaining money. It's really no different from blizzard, just less obvious. They support esports because it gains them attention, yet they don't add benefits for the pros like improving custom gamemaking and a working, functional replay system?
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I've been playing LoL since beta and I can definitively say that the game used to be balanced. Now, they churn out a new hero every two weeks, who manages to be both overpowered (so they sell) and still completely unoriginal (because of their "anti-fun" mentality). Then two weeks later they get nerfed and a new overpowered yet boring hero drops.
Tencent buys Riot -> game goes to shit. They claim they aren't selling power but it's a lie. This isn't even considering the community, which is full of flaming, trolling, 12 year old noobs.
I got a DotA 2 beta key and never looked back. Every time I play LoL now I'm reminded of how shit it has become.
EDIT: There's also issues with the fundamental design of the game. No denying actually makes lanes MORE passive, and encourages you to not attack creeps AT ALL. It also means that pushing towers early can be bad as you are unable to safely farm, making games even more stagnant. The small map (compared to DotA) means that late game everything turns into a 5v5 team fight, but the lack of TP scrolls makes assisting other lanes impossible in the early game. This is why the lane setups are so stagnant and the metagame hasn't changed one bit in the past few years. In DotA you can pull all sorts of crazy lanes like 3-1-1, 1-2-1-1, 2-2-1, or even 4-1-0 with the right team comp. Ability power means that there is no concept of an "early game hero" like DotA. It's just "pick the most overpowered AP carry and wreck face from beginning to end".
The number of design flaws in the game are staggering. But the end result is obvious: there is only one lane setup, and if you want to win, you have to pick the flavor of the month (usually the newest hero because Tencent needs their money and Riot better pay up).
EDIT 2: OH YEAH and the game is even MORE "snowbally" than DotA. Because of the passive lanes and the fact that there are no true late game carries, the team that is behind usually will get farther behind. The only way they can get ahead is if the other team makes a mistake, not through any good play of their own. Enemy Annie wins mid and gets a 10 minute Deathcap? Good luck winning a fight for dragon. Ever.
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Tencent buys Riot -> game goes to shit. They claim they aren't selling power but it's a lie. This isn't even considering the community, which is full of flaming, trolling, 12 year old noobs.
How was the business model different before Tencent bought them?
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On February 28 2012 16:16 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +Tencent buys Riot -> game goes to shit. They claim they aren't selling power but it's a lie. This isn't even considering the community, which is full of flaming, trolling, 12 year old noobs. How was the business model different before Tencent bought them?
The business model was technically the same, but every single new hero they released wasn't overpowered as hell. You can argue this one one way or the other, but I am convinced that Riot is doing it on purpose. Money makes the world go round.
But really, it's the fundamental design flaws that I extrapolated on above that ruin this game for me. DotA is just so much more interactive.
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I'm actually fine with no denying. In non competitive games there can be just as much action early as dota, and many different ways to outlane your opponent.
But there are other flaws that definitely tunnel the meta into the same game plan and objectives. I think the main reason why in competitive that it's so passive early is because it's just too risky to take these chances against an enemy jungler. Your ward coverage is non existant early on, but then when you go back to buy the ward coverage is just too much. You'll have complete vision of the map and the scripted mobs and timers makes it so you know where your enemy jungler will be making ganking really difficult with summoners up.
They'll never change this though because it'd probably result in an "anti-fun" mechanic or w/e they try to justify it with.
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When the community was smaller, Riot tended to be more involved directly with people via their competitions and "Play with a Rioter."
With the release of DOTA2, they have become more business oriented in order to survive in the field. They are a different form of MOBA compared to DOTA, not necessarily more or less casual friendly.
I personally cannot play LoL anymore because the community disappoints me and ruins most of the games I have played lately. The DOTA2 community has not made me feel any better. I favor individual or small group games over team-based battles currently in general.
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On February 28 2012 16:23 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I'm actually fine with no denying. In non competitive games there can be just as much action early as dota, and many different ways to outlane your opponent.
But there are other flaws that definitely tunnel the meta into the same game plan and objectives. I think the main reason why in competitive that it's so passive early is because it's just too risky to take these chances against an enemy jungler. Your ward coverage is non existant early on, but then when you go back to buy the ward coverage is just too much. You'll have complete vision of the map and the scripted mobs and timers makes it so you know where your enemy jungler will be making ganking really difficult with summoners up.
In non-competitive games all kinds of shit can happen. That doesn't say anything about the actual state of the game. The truth is that competitive LoL is a complete farm fest and boring as hell to watch. This is because pros have realized that LoL is snowbally as hell, so if they get a little bit ahead, there is little chance for their opponent to catch up as long as they play super safely.
Competitive DotA will often feature two different team composition strategies (push vs turtle/farm for example) where one team tries to end the game fast and the other team just wants to hang on long enough for their carry to get farmed up. This results in a lot of action as the teams will clash over towers again and again. In addition, the plethora of unique abilities in DotA make for very diverse team fights depending on timing and positioning.
As a spectator sport, DotA >>>>>>>>>>>>> LoL.
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Riot is very transparent with their decisions, and they have a free to play game. Compare them to MLG after winter arena, people don't like paying money to watch a game or play a game. Riot has caused neither, and I think it is great for the community.
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Meh. Personally, I don't like Riot. I think they are fucking lazy I hope LoL just dies so we can forget about it. They don't give fuckall for the balance of the game, they are just focused on shitting out as many heroes and skins as possible because believe it or not they make alot of money off that stupid shit from naive people.
They said they were gonna make a replay system. Still isn't there last I checked. They said they were going to add some other 5v5 map like in HoN/DotA that is much larger. Last I checked again, they still haven't done that. They did add this stupid fucking Dominion game though, like why would I give half a shit about this stupid game mode? add replays already you lazy fucks. It's like they are trying to avoid adressing the things that could make the game better.
Finally the worst part about the game imo is the community. It's like a cesspool that attracts the worst types of gamers on the internet. I have been in games where noyone spoke a word of english, countless times where someone fed on purpose or just sucked horribly. Not just bad, like these kids have fucking brain damage or something the way they play the game. I play my ass off and we still lose the games because these kids still haven't gotten the basics down over the course of hundreds of games. It's downright embarassing how stupid they are.
I could go on for awhile. I stopped playing LoL last year. Wasn't worth all the bullshit. Even duo-queueing with a good friend couldn't save it for me, still got screwed by teammates. Then I get stupid emails from Riot temp-banning me for the dumbest shit. 3 people on my team fed the other team to hell and went afk so I go afk too, fuck it. Got an email about it, ROFL. Bming some kid who just ran towards the other team all game and fed them to hell? Theres a temp ban and an email for that too. It's a fucking joke. Not the mention Riot was like "fuck this shit lol, we will just let the community do our jobs so we can sit on our ass more" and created the Tribunal, which just allows these same idiots to judge you for the most unimportant shit in the world. I'm not saying some people don't deserve temp bans, but it gets abused so much, or it just ends up going to some sheltered admin who has never seen a curse word before. If your gonna ban for profanity, then remove the filter for it. Makes no damn sense.
I hope Riot finds something else to make that isn't trash. This psuedo pay/free system it has going on is horrible. Either you pay the bullshit price for a new hero or you grind games for like weeks trying to obtain the stupid amount of IP to buy it. Then there are runes which give you an advantage, oh hey, heres more grinding for you!
Well, thats my rant anyways. The longer Riot keeps all this up, the more I hope they go bankrupt. Horrible gaming companies deserve to go under and I hope the people that actually play and like LoL to move to a MOBA worth playing like DotA2 that actually has a company behind it that gives a shit.
On February 28 2012 16:37 mastergriggy wrote:
Riot is very transparent with their decisions, and they have a free to play game. Compare them to MLG after winter arena, people don't like paying money to watch a game or play a game. Riot has caused neither, and I think it is great for the community.
F2P does not mean better. Not the mention the term is a bit ambiguous when applied to LoL. Yes, it is free in terms of money. It isnt something like TF2 though where you can just pick up and play. It requires quite a hefty time investment, especially if you ever want to be competitive at it with all the heros/runes/rune pages to buy.
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On February 28 2012 16:13 Uranium wrote:
I've been playing LoL since beta and I can definitively say that the game used to be balanced. Now, they churn out a new hero every two weeks, who manages to be both overpowered (so they sell) and still completely unoriginal (because of their "anti-fun" mentality). Then two weeks later they get nerfed and a new overpowered yet boring hero drops.
Tencent buys Riot -> game goes to shit. They claim they aren't selling power but it's a lie. This isn't even considering the community, which is full of flaming, trolling, 12 year old noobs.
I got a DotA 2 beta key and never looked back. Every time I play LoL now I'm reminded of how shit it has become.
EDIT: There's also issues with the fundamental design of the game. No denying actually makes lanes MORE passive, and encourages you to not attack creeps AT ALL. It also means that pushing towers early can be bad as you are unable to safely farm, making games even more stagnant. The small map (compared to DotA) means that late game everything turns into a 5v5 team fight, but the lack of TP scrolls makes assisting other lanes impossible in the early game. This is why the lane setups are so stagnant and the metagame hasn't changed one bit in the past few years. In DotA you can pull all sorts of crazy lanes like 3-1-1, 1-2-1-1, 2-2-1, or even 4-1-0 with the right team comp. Ability power means that there is no concept of an "early game hero" like DotA. It's just "pick the most overpowered AP carry and wreck face from beginning to end".
The number of design flaws in the game are staggering. But the end result is obvious: there is only one lane setup, and if you want to win, you have to pick the flavor of the month (usually the newest hero because Tencent needs their money and Riot better pay up).
EDIT 2: OH YEAH and the game is even MORE "snowbally" than DotA. Because of the passive lanes and the fact that there are no true late game carries, the team that is behind usually will get farther behind. The only way they can get ahead is if the other team makes a mistake, not through any good play of their own. Enemy Annie wins mid and gets a 10 minute Deathcap? Good luck winning a fight for dragon. Ever.
In response to the overpowered comment, I hear what your saying but I feel that they almost need to make them overpowered now because it is much better to relase an overpowered champ that everyone wants, than to relase a shit one than patch it later. For example Yorick is debately one of the best solo tops in the game, when is the last time you saw yorick in a game, chances are for me at least not very often. When yorick came out he was weak and most people considered him useless imo that stigma stuck with him and only the people who really look deeply in to champs see the potential in him, but everyone else saw that he sucked when he came out and despite the patch they still believe he sucks.
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HoN players mostly hate S2, too.
Being free to play (with optional purchases) does this to a big portion of your fanbase automatically, really.
It really is an awful model when the heroes cost that much to purchase.
And yeah, the trend of making new heros as flashy as possible (and typically OP) to ensure they get purchased is probably a real one. Certainly feels like it is in HoN.
Complaining about idiot teammates is not really something these companies can control, though. Rating systems can always be abused, and it's amazing how terrible a person can play one game, and fantastically the next. All while believing it's someone else's fault 
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If you look at it the way you people do, then yes, it's a shitty game. But it's a fun game, everyone can play it. My younger brother was surprised to see that 80% of his new friends played this game (including girls, when's the last time you saw casual gamer girls on the internet). The skins are a bonus, you don't have to pay for it. And you get more IP when you're not level 30. It takes quite some games to master a champion, so I don't mind not having all the champions.
I like to watch proteams battle it out in LoL, since I think it's exciting and clear what happens. Dota2 has a darker art style, I really dislike that. LoL is more cartoony, which makes it more fun (for me).
You think of it in a professional way, you want more options and more tactics but you forget the fun part. For me it's fun to sit there with 4 noob friends of mine and just play the game and lose or win horribly, I don't care.
I know this blog is about RIOT, but since all your points are how RIOT build LoL I just wanted to shine some light on why LoL is as successful as it is. I don't have the feeling that they're greedy assholes, I do think the champions they release are getting less thought out, but if they would take twice as much the time for a champion I think it would already be better.
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You're completely blind dude and pretty much confirm what I believe to be brainwashing done by RIOT to newcomers to mobas. Even if it IS free the point is it shouldn't cost 20 dollars to get 3 fucking heroes. There's no way to even try a hero except wait for a random week in which it might be free to play. So you're casual, maybe you play this game like it's minesweeper, then you play it a bit more and are actually decent, what now? You want to try a hero or role you haven't tried before, too bad, drop 7 dollars on a hero you have no idea if you want or get out. Maybe you want to compete or get better? No runes? Sorry, can't play that hero on an even footing.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
People like RIOT because they made a fun game to play with friends and its free, in fact alot of people who are more ''serious'''LoL players often criticize RIOT in alot of there decisions.
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Well, the game is FtP and lots of fun compared to that price. So, I guess that makes it head and shoulders over mediocre games that cost money.
Like someone wrote above, they also do alot to promote tournaments big and small, and make a big deal of linking streaming pro's and such.
I get that people who have played this game for a while can get angry about the inherent greedy nature of micro-transaction games... But the thing that makes Riot so likeable is that skins and champs are voulantary. There's no champ with astronomical costs that is objectively better than others, everything comes down to individual skill(and in a non-proffessional enviornment everything is viable :p). So a new player can just pick up a few good cheap champs and have a blast for months without any investment beyond the time he/she plays the game.
Riot are awesome promoters of eSports and do a really nice job of showing off a FtP model that stays clear of the "free to play, pay to win"-concept like some do and instead focuses on how much investment you want to put into the game and rewards you for that.
My 2 cents.
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100% agree with this. I played LoL for some months about....a year ago now at this point. The game itself is very entertaining and a great spectator sport (I still enjoy watching pro competitions) but I eventually felt forced to quit because I felt like I couldn't play anything other than AP characters because that's all I had runes for (and even then, I still felt like my list of playable AP characters was limited, excluding the fact I didn't even own most of them). Even if money wasn't an issue and I could just magically spend the hundreds of dollar to own all the champs, the amount of time to grind out rune pages just felt ridiculous. Factor in money being an issue, the semi-casual player is essentially pigeon-holed into specializing into one champ which frankly just didn't feel fun to me after a while. (It's also very contradictory to the whole "team game" feel.)
Not to mention the ridiculous "balance" patches that make that one champ you play top tier for 2 months to being garbage tier for 4-5 months.
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On the other hand the free to play model allows you to choose if you want to pay or not. I haven't given a single cent to RIOT and still, i've been playing their game for almost two years and enjoying it. I don't play a lot but as time goes by I now have tons of runes/quints/8 rune pages and about 30 champions. And obviously I don't play the 30 of them.
To me the valid points on which you can blame them are mostly about the competitive scene :
- no replay, they want a competitive game, they need replays (although they have added a pretty cool observer mod/tourney UI)
- new OP champ every two week, this is pretty bad for competitive play, it changes how the game should be played too often, dota took a better approach at this removing new champs from -cm until they were considered fine
- not much creativity when creating champions, a lot of them look the same, but still there are some who are really well designed and fit the competitive aspect (lee sin comes to mind) not enough of those unfortunately...
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On February 28 2012 18:06 Itsmedudeman wrote:
You're completely blind dude and pretty much confirm what I believe to be brainwashing done by RIOT to newcomers to mobas. Even if it IS free the point is it shouldn't cost 20 dollars to get 3 fucking heroes. There's no way to even try a hero except wait for a random week in which it might be free to play. So you're casual, maybe you play this game like it's minesweeper, then you play it a bit more and are actually decent, what now? You want to try a hero or role you haven't tried before, too bad, drop 7 dollars on a hero you have no idea if you want or get out. Maybe you want to compete or get better? No runes? Sorry, can't play that hero on an even footing.
Lol wtf man? You sound so bitter. XD
If it's free you shouldn't give a shit if it costs $20 to get 3 heroes. I started playing LoL very casually, and between playing about 3 games a week and a few weekend when I played with friends for extra, I ended up with thousands more IP than I knew what to do with. You make it sound like it's impossible to get IP and you will be forced to spend real money. That's flat out false. Also, I hit level 30 and didn't have any runes at all for a while... and you know what? It didn't matter, cause I used skillz to win.
As for the original topic: I think LoL's demographic is a large reason why people don't care. With so many casual gamers, ask yourself how many people really will miss replays if they haven't ever played a game that had them? Or how many people will really be critical of the fuss and bother of getting a tournament game started if they've never seen another game played competitively? You are comparing it to your experience in other games, which makes you dissatisfied, but many people have nothing to compare it to.
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i know that when companies change their business model or shift their design focus it can cause a lot of upset.
but i think you should go outside for a little while. genuinely.
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On February 28 2012 19:58 RedJustice wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 18:06 Itsmedudeman wrote:
You're completely blind dude and pretty much confirm what I believe to be brainwashing done by RIOT to newcomers to mobas. Even if it IS free the point is it shouldn't cost 20 dollars to get 3 fucking heroes. There's no way to even try a hero except wait for a random week in which it might be free to play. So you're casual, maybe you play this game like it's minesweeper, then you play it a bit more and are actually decent, what now? You want to try a hero or role you haven't tried before, too bad, drop 7 dollars on a hero you have no idea if you want or get out. Maybe you want to compete or get better? No runes? Sorry, can't play that hero on an even footing. Lol wtf man? You sound so bitter. XD If it's free you shouldn't give a shit if it costs $20 to get 3 heroes. I started playing LoL very casually, and between playing about 3 games a week and a few weekend when I played with friends for extra, I ended up with thousands more IP than I knew what to do with. You make it sound like it's impossible to get IP and you will be forced to spend real money. That's flat out false. Also, I hit level 30 and didn't have any runes at all for a while... and you know what? It didn't matter, cause I used skillz to win. As for the original topic: I think LoL's demographic is a large reason why people don't care. With so many casual gamers, ask yourself how many people really will miss replays if they haven't ever played a game that had them? Or how many people will really be critical of the fuss and bother of getting a tournament game started if they've never seen another game played competitively? You are comparing it to your experience in other games, which makes you dissatisfied, but many people have nothing to compare it to.
That's exactly my fucking point? Everyone who thinks riot is doing a good job are casuals who don't know what they could or SHOULD be getting. It'd be like someone trying to convince me blockbuster was worth the money and a good company when there's shit like netflix out right now yet the difference is LoL is still doing well because everyone is so blind and willing to drop hundreds on this game.
Frankly, it doesn't matter if it's a good casual game for free when it's dogshit beyond that when it comes to playing it. It has nothing to do with catering only to casuals either. Wanna know why there aren't any good deals like buy X heroes for X money or buy everything the game has to offer for X money? Cause they know they can leech out money from those same casuals who started playing the game more and more.
You won with skills? I'd flat out embarrass you if you had no runes. If you enter a matchup against someone of equal skill level in an equal matchup you'll lose.
All this "free to play" shit needs to stop. It's quite funny. The game without every hero, runes, masteries is not free to play. That's a fraction of the game. It's just a demo in this stage. Should we just call games that release demos free to play? Too bad you can't even buy the game in its entirety for 60 dollars.
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On February 28 2012 20:51 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 19:58 RedJustice wrote:On February 28 2012 18:06 Itsmedudeman wrote:
You're completely blind dude and pretty much confirm what I believe to be brainwashing done by RIOT to newcomers to mobas. Even if it IS free the point is it shouldn't cost 20 dollars to get 3 fucking heroes. There's no way to even try a hero except wait for a random week in which it might be free to play. So you're casual, maybe you play this game like it's minesweeper, then you play it a bit more and are actually decent, what now? You want to try a hero or role you haven't tried before, too bad, drop 7 dollars on a hero you have no idea if you want or get out. Maybe you want to compete or get better? No runes? Sorry, can't play that hero on an even footing. Lol wtf man? You sound so bitter. XD If it's free you shouldn't give a shit if it costs $20 to get 3 heroes. I started playing LoL very casually, and between playing about 3 games a week and a few weekend when I played with friends for extra, I ended up with thousands more IP than I knew what to do with. You make it sound like it's impossible to get IP and you will be forced to spend real money. That's flat out false. Also, I hit level 30 and didn't have any runes at all for a while... and you know what? It didn't matter, cause I used skillz to win. As for the original topic: I think LoL's demographic is a large reason why people don't care. With so many casual gamers, ask yourself how many people really will miss replays if they haven't ever played a game that had them? Or how many people will really be critical of the fuss and bother of getting a tournament game started if they've never seen another game played competitively? You are comparing it to your experience in other games, which makes you dissatisfied, but many people have nothing to compare it to. That's exactly my fucking point? Everyone who thinks riot is doing a good job are casuals who don't know what they could or SHOULD be getting. It'd be like someone trying to convince me blockbuster was worth the money and a good company when there's shit like netflix out right now yet the difference is LoL is still doing well because everyone is so blind and willing to drop hundreds on this game. Frankly, it doesn't matter if it's a good casual game for free when it's dogshit beyond that when it comes to playing it. It has nothing to do with catering only to casuals either. Wanna know why there aren't any good deals like buy X heroes for X money or buy everything the game has to offer for X money? Cause they know they can leech out money from those same casuals who started playing the game more and more. You won with skills? I'd flat out embarrass you if you had no runes. If you enter a matchup against someone of equal skill level in an equal matchup you'll lose. All this "free to play" shit needs to stop. It's quite funny. The game without every hero, runes, masteries is not free to play. That's a fraction of the game. It's just a demo in this stage. Should we just call games that release demos free to play? Too bad you can't even buy the game in its entirety for 60 dollars.
wow lol.
I hear squats help.
Anyway, no matter how shitty you think it is, League is successful, and that's the bottom line. You aren't going to change the masses' opinion, so I suggest you stop thinking about it, since it gets you so worked up, and you feel the uncontrollable need to blow all your money on a company you hate.
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? Why do you think I'm mad? I'm just voicing my opinion that riot is probably the worst game making company that I've ever played a game from. I still play my demo of league on the side with my friends while I play dota 2 as well and probably switching over to dota 2 full time by release. I'm not brewing over this either, and most sensible people who I've talked to that have gotten a chance to experience a moba game from a real company express the same opinions. And I guess sorry for the vulgarity? but it's pretty outrageous what they get away with cause I guess the majority of league players have never played another game besides WoW where grinding and dropping hundreds of dollars is routine.
I'm just imagining Blizzard releasing free to play SC2 expansions except you don't get all the races and units without paying 300 dollars.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On February 28 2012 21:17 Itsmedudeman wrote:
? Why do you think I'm mad? I'm just voicing my opinion that riot is probably the worst game making company that I've ever played a game from. I still play my demo of league on the side with my friends while I play dota 2 as well and probably switching over to dota 2 full time by release. I'm not brewing over this either, and most sensible people who I've talked to that have gotten a chance to experience a moba game from a real company express the same opinions. And I guess sorry for the vulgarity? but it's pretty outrageous what they get away with cause I guess the majority of league players have never played another game besides WoW where grinding and dropping hundreds of dollars is routine.
I'm just imagining Blizzard releasing free to play SC2 expansions except you don't get all the races and units without paying 300 dollars.
On February 28 2012 15:50 Itsmedudeman wrote:
If you guys don't know who or what RIOT is, they're the company that makes LoL. I might be making a broad generalization for the majority of people who play LoL, but from what I've seen, it seems as though most people think RIOT is doing a good job, and are good game developers. Their PR is pretty good, they explain things where they need to, but in my eyes, it's just a disguise for their shitty ass developments and complete failures.
This blog isn't for the purposes of saying LoL is a bad game. I enjoy LoL and its own style compared to dota, but when I see how riot decides to handle things I honestly cannot fathom how anyone cannot be upset with them.
It's been... 2 years? since the game has come out and they have yet to create a replay system. Looking at match history tells you nothing about the game and navigating through players you played against is nonexistent when you log out. You have to spend literally over 300 dollars to obtain every hero (roughly 7 dollars per hero). You can get "IP" to buy heroes, sure, but you typically need 60+ games to get a single tier 3 hero. They have a rune system so you're forced to invest your precious IP into maximizing your stats, WHICH IN ALL REALITY IS JUST A SCAM TO GET MORE MONEY RATHER THAN ADD DIVERSITY TO THE GAME. Their custom game making is UTTER shit and every time I watch a tournament they have to delay the fucking game for like 10 minutes to remake due to an error or whatever. OH AND IT'S ALSO HILARIOUS WHEN PROS HAVE TO REMAKE GAMES CAUSE THEY CAN'T SWAP CAUSE THEY DON'T OWN THE DAMN HERO LOL.
So what are they doing besides sitting on their ass doing nothing? They release a rehashed hero with rehashed abilities from the rest of the pool. Yep, just add in some form of aoe damage, target dmg ability, a skillshot and we're ready to go! Oh, and let's add in like 5 skins cause that's what people want. Skins for the same hero which you can buy for the cheap price of 7 fucking dollars (not including the hero itself). Even when they're so successful that they can even put out a 5 million dollar tournament so that they're not outdone by Dota2 in attracting new players yet they can't add the simplest of functions to their game for some reason even though every moba before it has done it easily.
Seriously, anyone who thinks any of this is fair or reasonable is out of their fucking mind. I like the extreme measures people go to justify spending 300 dollars on this game. Basically in terms of entertainment per hour or saying they played WoW and payed 15 dollars a month. Guys, I'd just like you to know that in Dota you get every hero for fucking free after you buy Warcraft 3 for 20 bucks. In HoN you got every hero for 30 dollars when they released it. The whole LoL business model is set up around attracting as many naive people who have never played a moba in their life and to get them to spend as much money on this game as possible. It's equivalent to a korean MMO in terms of "free" and they want you to grind it out in the same fashion.
On February 28 2012 20:51 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 19:58 RedJustice wrote:On February 28 2012 18:06 Itsmedudeman wrote:
You're completely blind dude and pretty much confirm what I believe to be brainwashing done by RIOT to newcomers to mobas. Even if it IS free the point is it shouldn't cost 20 dollars to get 3 fucking heroes. There's no way to even try a hero except wait for a random week in which it might be free to play. So you're casual, maybe you play this game like it's minesweeper, then you play it a bit more and are actually decent, what now? You want to try a hero or role you haven't tried before, too bad, drop 7 dollars on a hero you have no idea if you want or get out. Maybe you want to compete or get better? No runes? Sorry, can't play that hero on an even footing. Lol wtf man? You sound so bitter. XD If it's free you shouldn't give a shit if it costs $20 to get 3 heroes. I started playing LoL very casually, and between playing about 3 games a week and a few weekend when I played with friends for extra, I ended up with thousands more IP than I knew what to do with. You make it sound like it's impossible to get IP and you will be forced to spend real money. That's flat out false. Also, I hit level 30 and didn't have any runes at all for a while... and you know what? It didn't matter, cause I used skillz to win. As for the original topic: I think LoL's demographic is a large reason why people don't care. With so many casual gamers, ask yourself how many people really will miss replays if they haven't ever played a game that had them? Or how many people will really be critical of the fuss and bother of getting a tournament game started if they've never seen another game played competitively? You are comparing it to your experience in other games, which makes you dissatisfied, but many people have nothing to compare it to. That's exactly my fucking point? Everyone who thinks riot is doing a good job are casuals who don't know what they could or SHOULD be getting. It'd be like someone trying to convince me blockbuster was worth the money and a good company when there's shit like netflix out right now yet the difference is LoL is still doing well because everyone is so blind and willing to drop hundreds on this game. Frankly, it doesn't matter if it's a good casual game for free when it's dogshit beyond that when it comes to playing it. It has nothing to do with catering only to casuals either. Wanna know why there aren't any good deals like buy X heroes for X money or buy everything the game has to offer for X money? Cause they know they can leech out money from those same casuals who started playing the game more and more. You won with skills? I'd flat out embarrass you if you had no runes. If you enter a matchup against someone of equal skill level in an equal matchup you'll lose. All this "free to play" shit needs to stop. It's quite funny. The game without every hero, runes, masteries is not free to play. That's a fraction of the game. It's just a demo in this stage. Should we just call games that release demos free to play? Too bad you can't even buy the game in its entirety for 60 dollars.
I dunno, you come off across as pretty mad.
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Caps lock and vulgarity have multiple uses in writing such as using them for emphasis on points.
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I haven't spent a cent on this game and it's provided me with countless hours of entertainment. Just because you have to spend 300 dollars to get every hero instantly doesn't mean you have to. I have no idea why you need to play every single hero when there are like 10 free heros every week and you can slowly buy your favourite ones with IP. Skins are pretty unecessary and runes are the only thing that you'd "need" to spend money on but by the time you reach level 30 and need them fro ranked play you have enough IP to buy them.
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Sigh, people still don't understand. I don't know why this point is so difficult to get across. You don't have to spend a cent! Cool! Ok, but what about those people who actually want a bit more? A better package deal? Hmm! Maybe for those people coming from Dota and people who want to try different heroes? Nope, nothing. No deal. We're gonna milk people as much as we can because we can. How about a better interface? More features? Nope... well, technically it's free so you have no right to complain! Even though many people have probably spent over 50 dollars on the game.
That's probably the main reason they get away with having some god awful service. The game is "technically" free for everyone so no one gets any right to complain about any bad features the game may have that never get fixed. Even though as I stated, these guys are making a LOT of revenue, have a LOT of tools to work with, but purposefully don't. For what they have at their disposal they are bad developers.
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On February 28 2012 21:33 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Sigh, people still don't understand. I don't know why this point is so difficult to get across. You don't have to spend a cent! Cool! Ok, but what about those people who actually want a bit more? A better package deal? Hmm! Maybe for those people coming from Dota and people who want to try different heroes? Nope, nothing. No deal. We're gonna milk people as much as we can because we can. How about a better interface? More features? Nope... well, technically it's free so you have no right to complain! Even though many people have probably spent over 50 dollars on the game.
That's probably the main reason they get away with having some god awful service. The game is "technically" free for everyone so no one gets any right to complain about any bad features the game may have that never get fixed. Even though as I stated, these guys are making a LOT of revenue, have a LOT of tools to work with, but purposefully don't. For what they have at their disposal they are bad developers.
bad according to what? by your own arguments they sound very successful.
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Lol of course they're successful. They get away with putting minimal effort actually maintaining and improving their game and focus on making profits off new heroes and skins.
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I can't believe people still buy Chiquita bananas or I-products but I guess you have to pick your battles. Boycotting a over-priced gaming product is as good as anything else, really...
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The answer: they engage the community, They do this with the summoner spotlight, the patch previews, the champion spotlights. They also put quite a bit into the events, whether it be large, professional tournaments or relatively small college events.
Everything else is secondary to those sorts of things. Do things like balance and replays matter? Of course, but if you innately trust the company, those things will come in due time. Do you trust Blizzard to ever get Starcraft 2 right? A lot of your arguments apply directly to Blizzard, but I don't particularly believe they care about the community beyond the dollar signs. I'm sure Riot cares about money too, but I also genuinely believe they care about the game just as much, if not more.
You might ask, what's the difference? I would put Valve as an example of a company that I inherently trust, even though they are clearly in it for the money. If any other company did what they did with Team Fortress 2 and the ingame store, I'd probably be pissed. But Valve clearly cares about Team Fortress 2 because of the amount of effort they put into patching the game and keeping it fresh. Did they always have plans to put in the Mann store? It would not surprise me, but given the amount of awesome things they have done for the game, I honestly can't complain.
Does Riot intentionally overpower new heros? Probably, but given all the other things they do, this is hardly worth flipping out over. The leveling system and the free hero rotation (10 per week) is excellent at introducing new people to the game who would otherwise probably be overwhelmed and would want nothing to do with the genre. Do you have to grind a lot of games to buy stuff with IP? Yeah, but it also creates a sense of accomplishment as you do it. You are under no compulsion to buy anything, the only thing that a serious player would arguably need to buy is the rune page bundle, which is like 30 bucks.
Also, I have personally attended a dominion tourney at WashU where a handful of Rioters showed up- they not only played (and let me play on their team), they also handed out a ton of free swag, talked to everyone there, and were really awesome in general (in fact some angry tryhard nerd yelled SHUT UP when they started celebrating a win, and they were all laughing and telling him it was cool when he came around apologizing over and over).
In summary, the majority of people who have played the game quickly get over the fact that they can't experience all the content at once, because the game is well made and Riot engages them.
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So that's why competitive LoL is getting to be the new big thing in Korea, right? I mean it has already been on Ongamenet.
I'm not a fan of League of Legends. Maybe LoL will flop. But that's just where the trends say it's heading. If old koreans in BW are quitting gaming, going to SC2, or entering LoL, you know Riot's doing something right. Or has done something right.
Having no replay implemented for a competitive game sounds fishy to me though. Pretty inexcusable, yeah.
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On February 28 2012 15:50 Itsmedudeman wrote:
If you guys don't know who or what RIOT is, they're the company that makes LoL. I might be making a broad generalization for the majority of people who play LoL, but from what I've seen, it seems as though most people think RIOT is doing a good job, and are good game developers. Their PR is pretty good, they explain things where they need to, but in my eyes, it's just a disguise for their shitty ass developments and complete failures.
This blog isn't for the purposes of saying LoL is a bad game. I enjoy LoL and its own style compared to dota, but when I see how riot decides to handle things I honestly cannot fathom how anyone cannot be upset with them.
It's been... 2 years? since the game has come out and they have yet to create a replay system. Looking at match history tells you nothing about the game and navigating through players you played against is nonexistent when you log out. You have to spend literally over 300 dollars to obtain every hero (roughly 7 dollars per hero). You can get "IP" to buy heroes, sure, but you typically need 60+ games to get a single tier 3 hero. They have a rune system so you're forced to invest your precious IP into maximizing your stats, WHICH IN ALL REALITY IS JUST A SCAM TO GET MORE MONEY RATHER THAN ADD DIVERSITY TO THE GAME. Their custom game making is UTTER shit and every time I watch a tournament they have to delay the fucking game for like 10 minutes to remake due to an error or whatever. OH AND IT'S ALSO HILARIOUS WHEN PROS HAVE TO REMAKE GAMES CAUSE THEY CAN'T SWAP CAUSE THEY DON'T OWN THE DAMN HERO LOL.
So what are they doing besides sitting on their ass doing nothing? They release a rehashed hero with rehashed abilities from the rest of the pool. Yep, just add in some form of aoe damage, target dmg ability, a skillshot and we're ready to go! Oh, and let's add in like 5 skins cause that's what people want. Skins for the same hero which you can buy for the cheap price of 7 fucking dollars (not including the hero itself). Even when they're so successful that they can even put out a 5 million dollar tournament so that they're not outdone by Dota2 in attracting new players yet they can't add the simplest of functions to their game for some reason even though every moba before it has done it easily.
Seriously, anyone who thinks any of this is fair or reasonable is out of their fucking mind. I like the extreme measures people go to justify spending 300 dollars on this game. Basically in terms of entertainment per hour or saying they played WoW and payed 15 dollars a month. Guys, I'd just like you to know that in Dota you get every hero for fucking free after you buy Warcraft 3 for 20 bucks. In HoN you got every hero for 30 dollars when they released it. The whole LoL business model is set up around attracting as many naive people who have never played a moba in their life and to get them to spend as much money on this game as possible. It's equivalent to a korean MMO in terms of "free" and they want you to grind it out in the same fashion.
I don't think the new heroes are overpowered, and every hero (except for maybe evelynn) is playable. The balance is pretty good.
I think the thing you're missing is that 99% of players have no need to have everything unlocked. To play a single hero competently takes a lot of games, and in fact it feels more personal to have less stuff unlocked. I like that my go to top lane champs are Pantheon and Renekton. If I could unlock everything I'd have less motivation to get good with some champs, and people would pressure me to play the FOTM champs. It would be nice if there was a way to unlock say '5 champs of your choice' though, and if the rune system wasn't such a hassle for very new players (though you can do well with 2 generic rune pages).
Skins are totally cosmetic, and a great way to monetize a game without selling power and keeping it free.
I'll admit though, I'd like them to hurry up with replays.
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On February 28 2012 16:13 Uranium wrote:
I got a DotA 2 beta key and never looked back.
Pretty much this for me. but not because i dont like LoL or Riot or anything, i just got fed up not being able to play heroes that interested me without dropping lots of money. Also all the heroes in DOTA2 are just more powerful (by which i mean, capable of "bigger" plays, think about pudges hook range compared to blitzcranks), which makes the game more enjoyable for me.
If i could purchase every LoL hero for the usual price tag of $50-60 then i would seriously consider buying it.
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This is pretty agressive. I agree 300 is a lot of money, but I mean like you said there is HoN and Dota, I don't know why you're this upset if you think there are better games play those. I thought age of mythology clash of the titans was better than age of empires, so i played that. The only way you make a statement to companies to make change is through the wallet :/
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On February 28 2012 19:52 RouaF wrote:
I don't play a lot but as time goes by I now have tons of runes/quints/8 rune pages and about 30 champions. And obviously I don't play the 30 of them.
30 champions in two years?
I can not comprehend how people think this game has competitive nature.
That just shows you how naive people are.
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Complaining about a free game, that is such quality that most people play it for hundreds or thousands of games. If you want to play new champions other than the ones you own, well good on you cause you have a week to try 8 new ones. Skins? They should cost money. They're just an extra little show off bit of the game that's not required.
If you would just play champs when they were free you would understand which ones you really enjoy and thus spend your IP wisely. Also, the new champions always come for free the 2nd week after they are released, so you can enjoy them being OP, and not have to wait forever to try a new champion. Also the champion pack for 20$ gives you enough champions that if you are willing to master them all should take you quiet a long time.
Riot is doing everything right on all fronts, they understand the game and patch it every week with player explanations. They have the right business models which allows casuals to get into their game, and can remain enjoying the game without ever spending money. They make money off of people who want to spend money, while increasing the popularity of their game as an e-sport for casuals who have got the chance to play because of their F2P accessibility. I do agree that Riot could make some of their UI in profiles better, as well as replays. And the champion overload is getting a bit too fast paced and some seem unoriginal. But the customers/players like new things, and Riot understands that.
I've been playing LoL on and off for about 6 months and have never spent any real money. I purchased champions and runes smartly and not impulsively and play free champs when I want a new experience. Hey Riot even gave me some RP for Christmas so I could buy a neat skin.
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You do come off as very bitter and a little bit bias towards DoTA. You can have every champion in the game for free if you want, but the real question is why? Why do you NEED every champion when there are something like 92 available to choose from? In order to be competitive in the game you only really have to know how to play 10-20 heroes and 3 rune books (AP, AD, Jungle). As long as you can fulfill whatever role your team is lacking during the picking phase your golden, it is after all a 5v5 game.
League has a higher viewership than any other MOBA right now and is closing in on SC2 yet you say it is boring to watch? The pros have a higher following than any DoTA/SC2 pro stream I have ever seen. A pro stream has anywhere between 8,000-12,000 viewers on any given night not to mention their tournament's viewership is through the roof. I think YOU are having a hard time grasping what everyone else has already accepted. The fact that LoL is here to stay and appears to be a competitive giant. I don't see how DoTA is going to gain any momentum when league already has the following it does but that remains to be seen when it is finally released but LoL shits on HoN already and HoN is basically a DoTA clone with minor changes.
I've played LoL since early beta, and already have a lot of runes/champions. I think I still need something like 35 heroes to have them all which is close to 150k IP, but who cares I don't like a lot of them hence I haven't bought them yet. I will probably never own ALL heroes but big fucking deal, it doesn't cost me a dime to play and there's more than likely a reason I don't have those heroes.
Replays? http://www.leaguereplays.com/download/ - Problem solved, I could care less if Riot implements it.
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I'm primarily a DotA (/2 beta) player. I tried 9 games on LoL with friends. Although I was a lvl1 summoner I got into games with full lvl30's because all my friends who partied with me were lvl30's. I went 6-3 over two nights of playing, most of them as Ashe. All I learned was that heroes have specific roles, and that I was to just shut the world out and last hit like a beast (aside from occasional ulti arrows which was too easy to use).
For casual people, I can understand why LoL is a fun way of spending time. Cute cartoon-ish graphics and less complexity compared to DotA. Visually, it's very friendly. However, I didn't like the aspect of runes, masteries, and heroes-on-sale. The system rewarded those who spent time and money - especially money. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that instead of "farming" points for hours it's much more convenient to cough up a few dollars and buy the damn thing outright. All part of the business, I suppose. Free-to-play, yes, but definitely not free-to-compete. I'm a competitive gamer with a WC3 DotA background, and that's why I didn't find the LoL model very appealing. Even when I come back to DotA from a long break, I like starting each game on equal footing, where I can trust my experience and instincts to compete against others, with full equal access to all the heroes (depending on game mode).
I don't mind spending money on MMO games. It's a different kind of satisfaction there. The feeling of accomplishment from raising a character from the humble beginnings to the glorious leader of nation versus nation battles - that's what I look for in an MMO. I have spent a considerable amount of money in various MMO's in the past, and I don't regret it. I had a lot of fun and met a lot of new friends.
Since I only took a quick dip into LoL, it's not my place to comment on the balance issue of new heroes. However, on the issue of competitiveness of the game, I dislike the LoL concept and that's why I don't play it.
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They make money off people that can't wait and those who are cheap or patient can play for free. Owning 90+ champs =/= competitive status for a player.
However, this doesn't excuse the fact they make a ton of money off people who want skins or can't wait to buy with IP, and yet there is no replay system.
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o.O
Why DON'T people like Riot?
They're an awesome, transparent company, that cares deeply for the growth of their community, and of e-sports.
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Why do people keep saying the game takes no skill and isn't competitive, when there is competition everywhere and good players definitely differentiate from bad players? Is it because the majority of players are casual? Is it because the target demographic is the casual player?
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On February 28 2012 16:10 Itsmedudeman wrote:
everything they do is for the sole purpose of gaining money
Wow, it's almost like they're a corporation! O.O
Most of the other stuff in this thread is "I hate LOL for xyz reasons", maybe half of which are even true. Although lack of replay system is pretty ridiculous.
As far as companies go, I haven't seen Riot do anything excessively bad (they're certainly better than EA or Activision).
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On February 29 2012 02:13 MrBitter wrote:
o.O
Why DON'T people like Riot?
They're an awesome, transparent company, that cares deeply for the growth of their community, and of e-sports.
What makes them so transparent? Their releasing of numbers that makes them look better but not of numbers that could make them look worse? I don't agree on that point.
What seems to be the most widely used defense of the f2p model from Riot is that 'you don't NEED every champion or rune.' When did this become such acceptable policy? Who are you to decide how everyone plays the game, that they should only want to play a small handful of champions? I've played LoL since about 1 month after it went 'retail' and have less than 1/3rd of the champion roster, no additional rune pages(which is most certainly selling power), and enough runes to fill 3 of said pages(3rd one was free from season1 launch I think?) with some overlap(can't make 3 100% unique pages). This leaves me with ~9k ip on my account at this moment, and a 6.3k IP hero coming out tomorrow that I would like to buy but will most likely require more rune purchases to play optimally(runes I won't be able to afford after spending the 6.3k). That's disregarding the fact that I very much enjoy playing random, and would prefer if my randoming would include every champion(I've often wondered why they couldn't implement that: choosing random allows you to random any champ, included those you may not own). Shame on me for wanting to do more than specialize in 5 champions, time to go spend money(ha).
One thing I see often from people who claim this defense is that they have 'purchased RP now and then' to alleviate the process. There are exceptions obviously, but I rarely see someone who is enjoying the game truly free that doesn't have regrets about how they feel the need to spend money to play how they would like, but can't get enough for their money to make the purchase worthwhile(oh boy I can spend 20 dollars and get a couple champs, I'm on the road to my full champion pool now!).
The barrier into competitive play(even just high solo ranked) is incredible in this game and could be a topic all on its own.
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I'm so glad you made a blog on this. I've felt the exact same way for so long. I started playing LoL in the summer of 2010 I believe or somewhere around there don't remember. The game was super fun and I loved it and played casually through 2011 and I got sick of all the failed promises and the only promises that were kept were skin releases and champion releases. They really don't care anything for their playerbase at all. It's just a big scam where you play their game and you are basically forced to pay for it to be competitive in it. It's like wow in the sense that you can just keep playing and playing for more rewards. I just wish that more people were more open to see that they're just being robbed. I spent probably 150 dollars and regret every penny of it.
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I don't get all the Riot hate really. I spent hundreds of hours playing that game and had great fun while doing. The best part is that it never cost me a cent.
Iv dropped the game in favor of DOTA2 but I dont see any reason to really hate Riot, they work hard and pay attention to the community for the most part, (I think valve kind of does a better job on that front but w/e). I think Riot has their shit together, just let them be.
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EDIT: I deleted my huge post.
Arthemesia, what have you spent your 150 bucks on exactly? Side note: If any amount of that money has gone to skins then your crying about money because invalid.
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Red, you complain about this new policy of not needing every single rune and champ to play this game and yet you bring up higher elo. To be quite frank, if you want to be Higher ELO, you wouldn't be playing more than a handful (if your lucky 10) champions. Unless you're in the special 2.2k elo range, to be competitive at the level you need to really focus your play on a certain type of championg (AP, AD, Brusier, Melee, Ranged.. etc). Basically Riot is giving the chance for players to do this with little to no cost to them.
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I like LoL/Riot, you're just a negative nancy.
Don't be so negative, nancy.
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Some things of LoL really are annoying, like some of the nonsensical IP costs of some things like certain runes and rune pages (rune pages especially). But I'm just gonna have to chortle at your claim that all the new champs are overpowered. Lets look backwards from the last champion release.
Nautilus: no
Ziggs: not really
Sejuani: no, but people thought she would be
Ahri: opinions were extremely divided and still are, but she's generally considered to be a strong pick now
Victor: no
Volibear: no, but people REALLY thought he would be
Fizz: no
Shyvana: nowadays she's considered really strong, but people thought she was garbage for like what, 7 patch cycles?
Graves: was overpowered, was nerfed, now he's just about normal
Xerath: no
Riven: people universally thought she was garbage until people like Navi figured her out. people still don't know how to play her and often still think she's garbage
You're just about as reactionary and sensationalist as the community that plays this game. Whenever a champ comes out or something gets slightly buffed or slightly nerfed people completely lose their shit. Remember the flash nerf? "OMG FLASH SUCKS NOW" when the nerf was rather miniscule in the big picture. Months later... everyone still uses flash.
and honestly, you're going to look at how the system works and just accept it and play it, or accept it and not play it. If you spent like fucking $100+ on this game and you complain about it, I'm just gonna have to tell you that you're a donkey. Maybe you should have, I dunno, stop playing the game and stop spending money on it if you couldn't resist spending money on it. I've spent money on this game once and it was to buy the rune page bundle, which I really don't regret at all.
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On February 29 2012 04:54 Shelke14 wrote:
Red, you complain about this new policy of not needing every single rune and champ to play this game and yet you bring up higher elo. To be quite frank, if you want to be Higher ELO, you wouldn't be playing more than a handful (if your lucky 10) champions. Unless you're in the special 2.2k elo range, to be competitive at the level you need to really focus your play on a certain type of championg (AP, AD, Brusier, Melee, Ranged.. etc). Basically Riot is giving the chance for players to do this with little to no cost to them.
Thus why I mentioned that the barrier to competitive play is a different topic that could generate it's own discussion from what I was mostly focused on(but was worth a mention as something almost unanimously seen as a negative thing for LoL).
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Transparent? Show me a post of them explaining why they have yet to implement some of the most basic features into their game and I'll believe that. It's not hard answering easy questions like balance changes, but they're probably the most obvious money grubbing company that doesn't give a shit about producing a good competitive game I've ever seen.
And I'm not complaining about the price of skins, I'm complaining they spend time and money into that when they have many other things they need to work on, but they just want to make money.
It's a good game if you want to spend $0.00. But seriously, everyone is so brainwashed into just this fact that they can't realize it's so bad if you want to spend even a LITTLE money. But you're right guys! If you've played for 2-3 years then you probably would have a lot of heroes! So either spend $300 or just play for 2 years and the problem is solved! And it's not even about having every hero, they don't have ANYTHING that let's you try out a hero outside of a rotation, in which a hero might not even show up for 2 months.
I guarantee if Dota2 followed this same business model people would go APESHIT and it would probably fail.
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Of course they're a profit seeking company. That's obvious as all hell. But in the end it's all up to you to choose to spend money on it or not, and also how seriously you play the game. I play the game with friends, and it's fine in that form. I play it here and there to relieve stress. I don't expect from it the experience you might get playing Brood War or DotA. And people complain about it all the time, but LoL is a pretty well balanced game considering how it's made. It's not like DotA didn't have obviously overpowered or widely considered to be overpowered heroes either.
I guarantee if Dota2 followed this same business model people would go APESHIT and it would probably fail.
No shit? Different games, different crowd. Your boring sense of anger comes from the fact that you think people want the same things from LoL as they would in DotA.
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Why do you keep bringing that up when I never mentioned op heroes EVER? Here are the basic choices they offer you for people wanting to play more than just casually: get robbed or just don't spend money at all and play 60+ games to reach 1 more hero.
edit: LOL different crowd? So you, as a league player, actually like the fact that you wouldn't be able to buy every single hero and every feature the game has to offer for under 300 dollars? The only difference here is that league players don't understand they're getting ripped off every time they purchase something.
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On February 29 2012 04:52 Shelke14 wrote:
EDIT: I deleted my huge post.
Arthemesia, what have you spent your 150 bucks on exactly? Side note: If any amount of that money has gone to skins then your crying about money because invalid.
Sorry I didn't get to see your original post but I spent my money on champion packs to begin with and then champions on sale. I was really enjoying the game and looking forward to it growing. I mean I have an addicting personality too and when I get hooked on a game I can spend a lot of money on it. I also bought a lot of IP boosts and I think like the Nocturne pack. I mean I didn't mean to be so aggressive sounding in my post I just really dislike the direction that they've taken, I merely stated the amount of money I spent on the game to show that I was a paying customer who really enjoyed the game and felt that I was being robbed.
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On February 29 2012 05:32 koreasilver wrote:Of course they're a profit seeking company. That's obvious as all hell. But in the end it's all up to you to choose to spend money on it or not, and also how seriously you play the game. I play the game with friends, and it's fine in that form. I play it here and there to relieve stress. I don't expect from it the experience you might get playing Brood War or DotA. And people complain about it all the time, but LoL is a pretty well balanced game considering how it's made. It's not like DotA didn't have obviously overpowered or widely considered to be overpowered heroes either. Show nested quote +I guarantee if Dota2 followed this same business model people would go APESHIT and it would probably fail. No shit? Different games, different crowd. Your boring sense of anger comes from the fact that you think people want the same things from LoL as they would in DotA.
Do you have a level 30 account? Have you tried grinding out to level 30 and being able to buy everything you want? I mean back when IP was nerfed that hurt a lot as well. I mean your post doesn't seem like you have the knowledge of how it feels to want to have a lot in the game but not being able to afford through just playing for free.
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I never brought that up against you in particular. I wasn't only talking to you, quit flattering yourself.
And no, the only thing you don't understand is that I play LoL as a casual game with friends that also play the game casually. I don't take it seriously, and therefore although I have disliked LoL's system since day 1, I don't really give a shit because I don't take it seriously and I don't spend money on it. If I really wanted to play something competitive I'd play Brood War again on Fish. But when I'm playing with my friends, I'm not looking for such a thing. If you want to play the game more than casually and you can't accept the system, then it's simple. You just don't play the goddamned game. This is why you and the guy above on this page that complained about how he spend like $150 on the game are pretty much donkeys. As for me, this game is just a casual thing to play with friends. I really don't care that I don't own all the champions or have 20 rune pages or have all the runes. If I want to play a MOBA game seriously for some reason, I'll play DOTA2 when it comes out. But honestly, at this point in my life, I don't want to play any game with any sort of seriousness.
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On February 29 2012 05:50 Arthemesia wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 05:32 koreasilver wrote:Of course they're a profit seeking company. That's obvious as all hell. But in the end it's all up to you to choose to spend money on it or not, and also how seriously you play the game. I play the game with friends, and it's fine in that form. I play it here and there to relieve stress. I don't expect from it the experience you might get playing Brood War or DotA. And people complain about it all the time, but LoL is a pretty well balanced game considering how it's made. It's not like DotA didn't have obviously overpowered or widely considered to be overpowered heroes either. I guarantee if Dota2 followed this same business model people would go APESHIT and it would probably fail. No shit? Different games, different crowd. Your boring sense of anger comes from the fact that you think people want the same things from LoL as they would in DotA. Do you have a level 30 account? Have you tried grinding out to level 30 and being able to buy everything you want? I mean back when IP was nerfed that hurt a lot as well. I mean your post doesn't seem like you have the knowledge of how it feels to want to have a lot in the game but not being able to afford through just playing for free.
I have a lvl 30 account and besides the little bit of money I spent to buy the rune page bundle I haven't spend any money. I've had the account for about a year and I have the runes to make specialized pages for various champions, and I own 29 champions. The free Alistar and Tristana, and a few 6.3k champs (Nocturne, Lee Sin, Maokai, and Vayne). I know what it feels like to want a lot of things. But here's the thing. I just play this game with friends most of the time so I really don't give a shit that I might not have everything I want. Because the point of me playing this game is to have fun with friends, not trying to play this game like I'm on a fucking Brood War ladder server. You guys sound like little kids sometimes. How the hell do you survive in the world with the "oh, I want this, and that, I shouldn't spend money, but maybe I should..." Yeah, maybe if you're looking for a strictly competitive game where the only thing that holds you back from playing well is game knowledge and skill, then LoL has problems. But if you're looking for such a game, why in the world are you playing LoL instead of Brood War or DotA?
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On February 29 2012 05:52 koreasilver wrote:
I never brought that up against you in particular. I wasn't only talking to you, quit flattering yourself.
And no, the only thing you don't understand is that I play LoL as a casual game with friends that also play the game casually. I don't take it seriously, and therefore although I have disliked LoL's system since day 1, I don't really give a shit because I don't take it seriously and I don't spend money on it. If I really wanted to play something competitive I'd play Brood War again on Fish. But when I'm playing with my friends, I'm not looking for such a thing. If you want to play the game more than casually and you can't accept the system, then it's simple. You just don't play the goddamned game. This is why you and the guy above on this page that complained about how he spend like $150 on the game are pretty much donkeys. As for me, this game is just a casual thing to play with friends. I really don't care that I don't own all the champions or have 20 rune pages or have all the runes. If I want to play a MOBA game seriously for some reason, I'll play DOTA2 when it comes out. But honestly, at this point in my life, I don't want to play any game with any sort of seriousness.
Rofl I was just defending the OP because his opinion coincides with mine and your arguments don't provide any real value. The fact is that some people really enjoyed the game such as myself and are willing to spend money on something they enjoy which is the definition of a hobby. Yes I understand that people just play it casually and don't spend money which is fine. The issue is that people who enjoy the game and want to support just feel like they're being robbed because Riot provides the least amount for the money you spend.
Edit: And to the above post I play it because it was a very fun game for me and I enjoyed it more than the aforementioned games.
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If you spend money on it to an extent you think you've been robbed, then you pretty much just got suckered in by Riot's marketing strategy because you're dumb. Riot pretty much deserves every penny you spent on them because of how blatantly obvious their system is. It's a shitty system, I don't think anyone will disagree on that. But I really can't have any sympathy if you spent that much money on this game and regretted it. Because it is all just too obvious.
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On February 29 2012 06:10 koreasilver wrote:
If you spend money on it to an extent you think you've been robbed, then you pretty much just got suckered in by Riot's marketing strategy because you're dumb. Riot pretty much deserves every penny you spent on them because of how blatantly obvious their system is. It's a shitty system, I don't think anyone will disagree on that. But I really can't have any sympathy if you spent that much money on this game and regretted it. Because it is all just too obvious.
Yes it is very obvious now but Riot was a very different company back in 2010 when they were a lot smaller and seemed a lot more genuine. This is around the time that I spent money on everything and was leveling up. Yes it probably wasn't the best decision and yes I was tricked and it was dumb of me. I also don't understand why you think I'm looking for sympathy I'm just trying to make those who want to get into the game how much time it really takes to get the things you want in the game and is a real time and money sink. It was a lot of fun while it lasted but when I realized that I'm getting nothing for my money is when my opinion changed. I'm just trying to have people be more aware because with how much money RIOT makes and the fact they can afford these huge tournaments mean that I'm not the only retarded person out there.
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Adding a serious LoL player perspective here.
I've played LoL since it got out of beta. I've played a lot and probably dropped, I dunno $200ish total between 3 accounts. For the amount of time I spend on the game, I don't regret a cent. For my case, I've paid less than I would with a monthly $15 fee for WoW or whatever and I have roughly all relevant content (I don't own all champs, but I do have spare IP and RP enough lying around that I could get them if I wanted),
That being said, the entrance barrier for new players is absurd and the only thing that I really have a problem with in LoL is that when a friend says "hey should I get into LoL?" I frequently have to tell them that at this point, the grind would be absurd or you'd have to spend a ton of money to get up to speed if you wanted to take the game seriously.
Balance is acceptable and if you say they don't take competitive balance seriously, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. They have hiccups, but every company does and Riot's been getting mostly better about not releasing imbalanced changes.
Anyway, back to the original question in the thread, the reason people like riot is that riot puts faces on a number of it's employees and cuts them enough slack to interact with the community that people feel like they know the people behind Riot and like they have an idea of why those people are doing what they're doing with LoL. This level of interaction with the community is pretty remarkable and is largely behind why people like Riot.
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The funny thing is, all the LoL supporters in this thread haven't given a shred of evidence as to why RIOT is a good organization. Everyone either agrees the model is bad, or just yells at that one guy for being mad. -___________-
Making you pay for heroes = not everyone has the same starting ground.
If I wanted to play a game where the amount of time and money I invest gave me more options and more power, I'd play an MMORPG.
For a DotA style game, you ALWAYS want to give your userbase access to EVERY hero. Its just fucking common sense. A true game of skill doesn't tier itself so you get access to more the longer you play.
Imagine if SC2 didn't allow you to build Ultralisks or Broodlords unless you had invested 500 hours and 4000 achievement points. Or you coulnd't upgrade past level 2 weapons/armor unless you spent a certain amount of money.
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One thing I don't understand here: why on earth are LoL players okay with having to specialize in one role?
I mean, when I play dota I play different role every game, I sometimes hard carry, sometimes gank , sometimes hardcore support, the other day I play one hero exclusively(like once in a month). I rotate through 60+% of full Dota1 hero pool easily within 2 months. It might be my personal thing, but I don't get it how you can be cool with having to play limited amount of heroes for so long O.o.
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On February 29 2012 06:27 ch33psh33p wrote:
The funny thing is, all the LoL supporters in this thread haven't given a shred of evidence as to why RIOT is a good organization. Everyone either agrees the model is bad, or just yells at that one guy for being mad. -___________-
Making you pay for heroes = not everyone has the same starting ground.
If I wanted to play a game where the amount of time and money I invest gave me more options and more power, I'd play an MMORPG.
For a DotA style game, you ALWAYS want to give your userbase access to EVERY hero. Its just fucking common sense. A true game of skill doesn't tier itself so you get access to more the longer you play.
Imagine if SC2 didn't allow you to build Ultralisks or Broodlords unless you had invested 500 hours and 4000 achievement points. Or you coulnd't upgrade past level 2 weapons/armor unless you spent a certain amount of money.
that's not how spending money works. the better comparison would be that you couldn't play terran until you have invested X hours. building a working rune set isn't that bad, and aside from runes, the content you spend IP/RP on is strictly about expanding your character selection options and has no impact in the actual game.
On February 29 2012 06:28 Qbek wrote:
One thing I don't understand here: why on earth are LoL players okay with having to specialize in one role?
I mean, when I play dota I play different role every game, I sometimes hard carry, sometimes gank , sometimes hardcore support, the other day I play one hero exclusively(like once in a month). I rotate through 60+% of full Dota1 hero pool easily within 2 months. It might be my personal thing, but I don't get it how you can be cool with having to play limited amount of heroes for so long O.o.
you don't have to? what makes you think you have to specialize in a particular role?
naturally as you get more competitive, specialization has it's perks in terms of you mastering a role, but no one's holding a gun to your head saying you have to play support every game.
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On February 29 2012 06:27 ch33psh33p wrote:
The funny thing is, all the LoL supporters in this thread haven't given a shred of evidence as to why RIOT is a good organization. Everyone either agrees the model is bad, or just yells at that one guy for being mad. -___________-
Making you pay for heroes = not everyone has the same starting ground.
If I wanted to play a game where the amount of time and money I invest gave me more options and more power, I'd play an MMORPG.
For a DotA style game, you ALWAYS want to give your userbase access to EVERY hero. Its just fucking common sense. A true game of skill doesn't tier itself so you get access to more the longer you play.
Imagine if SC2 didn't allow you to build Ultralisks or Broodlords unless you had invested 500 hours and 4000 achievement points. Or you coulnd't upgrade past level 2 weapons/armor unless you spent a certain amount of money.
I don't see how your last comparison is very valid lol the only thing paying money/playing more gains you is access to more variety. It's not like i can drop $20 and get access to items that are better than everyone else's. Their hero balance isn't trash except for a few cases where they've said "Evelynn is a whore who makes this game unfun, we're nerfing her to death."
The only thing that I genuinely don't like is the cost for runes/rune pages. If you're a person who wants access to everything from the get go LoL isn't for you. Also to fill out an AP AD/Jungle and Support page isn't very bad if you know what you need and there are a lot of low price champs that do just fine in their roles.
Edit: it seems most people here are bashing the F2P model and don't actually know much about LoL.
If you don't like their free to play model, just don't play and go find another game that you can enjoy.
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There's a massive amount of anger in this topic and a lot of people here just seem to be hurt that LoL is popular.
It's ok if someone likes something you don't like, you know!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0la5DBtOVNI
Some of you need to chill out.
But anyway. As someone who works with Rioters on a regular basis, here's my $0.02 for what it's worth.
1. Rioters are pretty cool guys. Eh engages community and doesn't afraid of anything.
I talk to Player Support and Community Management a lot. There is always a focus on what can be done better. The guys there really care about the game and its players, even if it doesn't seem obvious at times. They also regularly visit the Official LoL Forums, Reddit, other fansites, watch streams, and much more. Additionally, every Rioter plays LoL and knows what goes on. They're also pretty cool guys. Did you know one of the Network Engineers was the creator of the Megatokyo webcomic (he's Largo, btw)? How about the fact that their Lead Designer is Zileas, who in Brood War was the guy who got Reavers nerfed? Yeah.
2. Riot cares about E-Sports
E-Sports is big at Riot. They promote E-Sports both outside and inside the community. They've also got a really sweet internal studio with massive Plasma HD where they watch tournaments. But some of you seem to think this stuff is bad.
You say: "They put stream link in client to fudge numbers! That's cheating!"
I say: "Why don't more developers put stream links in their clients to get people watching E-Sports?"
You say: "They just flood the scene with money and no one cares."
I say: "Why don't more developers step up to the plate and give everyone free HD Streaming and spoil us with coverage?"
You say: "They publish E-Sports news on their website and don't talk about SC2."
I say: "Why don't more developers promote E-Sports to their own players?"
You say: "It's not SC2/DotA/other game. It's bad."
I say: "So what? E-Sports is about promoting electronic sports as a whole."
3. It's a free game. Stop complaining about money.
The Riot payment system is as follows. Don't like the game? Don't spend money.
Simple, eh?
The whole idea is that if you don't like what they do, you can still take advantage of their game and not pay. The onus is on them to make good content to convince you it's worth paying for a skin or something. It's never necessary in the name of power or anything else.
You are never ever required to pay for things in LoL. I've had loads of chats with Marketing on this topic. You can't buy power directly in LoL, and you can unlock everything necessary by just playing. That's one of the reasons the "unlock everything" reward for referrals doesn't unlock runes btw. Also, people are never differentiated based on how much they've spent on the game.
The barrier to entry given that there's been a lot of development and that it's hard for a new player to instantly pick up the game is a known problem. They're working on it. I'm not allowed to say more on this though, sorry.
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nvm, i dont know where i was going with this. pretty off topic.
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On February 29 2012 07:13 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:
2. Riot cares about E-Sports
E-Sports is big at Riot. They promote E-Sports both outside and inside the community. They've also got a really sweet internal studio with massive Plasma HD where they watch tournaments. But some of you seem to think this stuff is bad.
Uh, who cares that they have some Plasma TV where they can watch tournaments? After over 2 years, they still haven't added a replay/observer system. What other competitive games don't have this? Hell, even SC2 has replays. You seem biased since you hang around those people so it's kinda pointless to debate with you. I still stick by my point that they are fucking lazy and don't care about making the game an esport as much as shitting out new champions like they have diarrhea so they can make some quick cash.
Yeah, the system works, they are making money in the long run for now. Good for them. Don't try to pretend that it's a good system for fostering competition though.
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On February 29 2012 07:32 Enki wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 07:13 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:
2. Riot cares about E-Sports
E-Sports is big at Riot. They promote E-Sports both outside and inside the community. They've also got a really sweet internal studio with massive Plasma HD where they watch tournaments. But some of you seem to think this stuff is bad.
Uh, who cares that they have some Plasma TV where they can watch tournaments? After over 2 years, they still haven't added a replay/observer system. What other competitive games don't have this? Hell, even SC2 has replays. You seem biased since you hang around those people so it's kinda pointless to debate with you. I still stick by my point that they are fucking lazy and don't care about making the game an esport as much as shitting out new champions like they have diarrhea so they can make some quick cash. Yeah, the system works, they are making money in the long run for now. Good for them. Don't try to pretend that it's a good system for fostering competition though.
1. Obs Mode has already been released for a while. Not sure what you're saying here.
2. Replays are in development, and there's an unofficial replay system.
3. Not having replays doesn't mean you can't promote E-Sports.
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By a lot of people's logic no one is allowed to complain about any business because you don't have to purchase their products. No one is allowed to complain when their ISP cuts out every 10 minutes because you can just go to another ISP, you're not allowed to complain about public education because it's free, and you're certainly not allowed to complain about a business that offers very little to their dedicated consumers (who actually do happen to want to pay for the game) with realistic spending opportunities.
They promote esports because it's a huge advertisement for their game yet they can't even dish out all the heroes for their pro players to practice with and force their own players to pay money to be on an even footing? If they actually cared about esports I would think that they would try harder in making their games less snowball and less passive.
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You're trying to compare something as trivial as a game to social infrastructure and well being. Are you fucking kidding me?
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United States47024 Posts
On February 29 2012 07:47 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 07:32 Enki wrote:On February 29 2012 07:13 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:
2. Riot cares about E-Sports
E-Sports is big at Riot. They promote E-Sports both outside and inside the community. They've also got a really sweet internal studio with massive Plasma HD where they watch tournaments. But some of you seem to think this stuff is bad.
Uh, who cares that they have some Plasma TV where they can watch tournaments? After over 2 years, they still haven't added a replay/observer system. What other competitive games don't have this? Hell, even SC2 has replays. You seem biased since you hang around those people so it's kinda pointless to debate with you. I still stick by my point that they are fucking lazy and don't care about making the game an esport as much as shitting out new champions like they have diarrhea so they can make some quick cash. Yeah, the system works, they are making money in the long run for now. Good for them. Don't try to pretend that it's a good system for fostering competition though. 1. Obs Mode has already been released for a while. Not sure what you're saying here. 2. Replays are in development, and there's an unofficial replay system. 3. Not having replays doesn't mean you can't promote E-Sports.
Not sure why I haven't asked you this before on the LoL Subforum but...
Chiharu, do you know why Riot is insistent on keeping to the 2-week patch cycle? This is probably the biggest complaint I have with the game--changing the game that frequently has detrimental effects on the competitive development of the game, and given that the game has reached a certain level of stability, it's impossible for you to assess balance changes within the span of two weeks. The game never gets to settle down and let people thoroughly explore all the strategic possibilities before a set of significant changes alters the game again. The only possible reason to keep to the 2-week patch cycle is the desire to drive out new, unnecessary content every 2 weeks for the sake of profit.
The rate at which strategic development and advances happen in any game is EXTREMELY slow. For competitive play, it is important to allow these developments to happen properly. Interference hampers the efforts of these developments, as it makes it difficult for teams to practice new, innovative strategies and refine them without being disrupted. It also discourages the development of counter-strategies to the prevailing popular strategies, as the knowledge that Riot will just nerf what's currently hot decreases the incentives to do so.
Furthermore, it's simply impossible to make meaningful changes at this speed. Consider HOW LONG it takes people to properly map out the usefulness of a new champion--champions can remain sleeper hits for a period of several months, and rapid changes before a new champion (or even a recently changed champion) has been thoroughly assessed can actually have detrimental effects. Irelia is the poster child of this. At release she was considered underpowered, and received a substantial buff several weeks later. But over the following 6 months, her play was further and further refined, and she was forced to be nerfed repeatedly--such that her current "balanced" state is actually significantly weaker than her release state. The initial impression that she needed a buff was completely and utterly off--her at-release balance state was arguably *too strong*.
DotA, BW, and SC2 all took much slower, more methodical approaches to balance than Riot has, and it has seemed to pay off in all cases. Consider that DotA has been on 6.72f for the better part of 6 months. Consider that in that time, multiple heroes and strategies have come in and out of favor--that opinions of heroes have changed so drastically that a hero like Shadow Demon, that was literally always banned in competitive play near the start of 6.72f was played extremely infrequently by the release of 6.73--with absolutely no changes to the hero. If Icefrog held Riot's balance philosophy, SD would have been nerfed to utter uselessness. Similarly, consider the huge shifts that have occurred in BW competitive play over the last decade, with basically zero intervention from Blizzard (listing all of those would be a thread in and of itself).
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I'll lay this out simply for you because you specifically have failed to argue against anything I've said and the fact that you have been saying you should just "ignore" it and because no one has a right to complain about any business. The comparison is for the sake of showing that people have a right to complain about bad production and services from a business that makes revenue off these same people. If these people are spending money how is this any different from someone spending money on anything else? You expect some sort of quality and service, but you still don't get it. People who drop money on this are no different from people who drop money on WoW and expect some maintenance and fixes. They're no different from people who subscribe to an ISP and expect a solid connection and customer support.
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On February 29 2012 08:11 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I'll lay this out simply for you because you specifically have failed to argue against anything I've said and the fact that you have been saying you should just "ignore" it and because no one has a right to complain about any business. The comparison is for the sake of showing that people have a right to complain about bad production and services from a business that makes revenue off these same people. If these people are spending money how is this any different from someone spending money on anything else? You expect some sort of quality and service, but you still don't get it. People who drop money on this are no different from people who drop money on WoW and expect some maintenance and fixes. They're no different from people who subscribe to an ISP and expect a solid connection and customer support.
I've spent 5$ on this game. I have gotten sensational return on my investment.
Not sure why I should be mad.
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People bitching on RIOT and saying they switch to DotA 2 should take a good look at themselves in the mirror. RIOT has at least the argument that they are handing out a product that more casual gamers play going for them.
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On February 29 2012 08:11 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I'll lay this out simply for you because you specifically have failed to argue against anything I've said and the fact that you have been saying you should just "ignore" it and because no one has a right to complain about any business. The comparison is for the sake of showing that people have a right to complain about bad production and services from a business that makes revenue off these same people. If these people are spending money how is this any different from someone spending money on anything else? You expect some sort of quality and service, but you still don't get it. People who drop money on this are no different from people who drop money on WoW and expect some maintenance and fixes. They're no different from people who subscribe to an ISP and expect a solid connection and customer support.
Comparing this game to important public services is a false equivocation, which is a logical fallacy. But even if we do look at it from a business standpoint, it doesn't really make much sense. Riot has a pretty good customer support, and they do provide what they said they would, despite whatever problems. You just don't have a case because they didn't pull off a switcharoo or anything. Like I said, their marketing is blatant. It's right in your face, and they don't try to pretend that they're not trying to get your money through skins and packages that can only be bought with money. But it still works for them. So what does that mean? It means their business model works, and the company itself has no reason to change how they're going about it. As it is now, if you don't like what they're doing to a point of outright disgust, then you simply stop using their product, which is how things actually work in the real world. If you don't like the product a company is giving you, and the company shows no signs of changing their practice, then you just stop giving them business.
This isn't any different from WoW, yeah. LoL gets maintenance and fixes, and yeah, they have decent servers and good customer support. You're engaging in an extraordinary waste of time because yes, Riot's system sucks in a lot of ways, no one will disagree with that. But you continue playing it, for whatever reasons, or you just quit and go to a competitor that doesn't have the things that you disagree about (DOTA2). But their business model isn't slimey in a underhanded sense. It's unabashedly direct and blatant that if you find it disagreeable you can just leave it. Which is how it works in the real world.
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People like Riot cos the game is FREE. Also, its easy to start and play but still require skill and thinking, decision making as a team in high level.
Well, company like RIOT will get hated more as they grow bigger. Just like Blizzard, I love Blizzard of 10 years ago much more than I love Blizzard of the present.
I have no complaint for RIOT atm, beside the fact that a Chinese company(Tencent) bought them, and Tencent is full of shit imo. Hope RIOT will not turn into anything like Tencent soon.
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On February 29 2012 09:53 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 08:11 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I'll lay this out simply for you because you specifically have failed to argue against anything I've said and the fact that you have been saying you should just "ignore" it and because no one has a right to complain about any business. The comparison is for the sake of showing that people have a right to complain about bad production and services from a business that makes revenue off these same people. If these people are spending money how is this any different from someone spending money on anything else? You expect some sort of quality and service, but you still don't get it. People who drop money on this are no different from people who drop money on WoW and expect some maintenance and fixes. They're no different from people who subscribe to an ISP and expect a solid connection and customer support. Comparing this game to important public services is a false equivocation, which is a logical fallacy. But even if we do look at it from a business standpoint, it doesn't really make much sense. Riot has a pretty good customer support, and they do provide what they said they would, despite whatever problems. You just don't have a case because they didn't pull off a switcharoo or anything. Like I said, their marketing is blatant. It's right in your face, and they don't try to pretend that they're not trying to get your money through skins and packages that can only be bought with money. But it still works for them. So what does that mean? It means their business model works, and the company itself has no reason to change how they're going about it. As it is now, if you don't like what they're doing to a point of outright disgust, then you simply stop using their product, which is how things actually work in the real world. If you don't like the product a company is giving you, and the company shows no signs of changing their practice, then you just stop giving them business. This isn't any different from WoW, yeah. LoL gets maintenance and fixes, and yeah, they have decent servers and good customer support. You're engaging in an extraordinary waste of time because yes, Riot's system sucks in a lot of ways, no one will disagree with that. But you continue playing it, for whatever reasons, or you just quit and go to a competitor that doesn't have the things that you disagree about (DOTA2). But their business model isn't slimey in a underhanded sense. It's unabashedly direct and blatant that if you find it disagreeable you can just leave it. Which is how it works in the real world.
What do you exactly think the point of this thread was...? I've pretty much been pointing out that RIOT is a shit developer and that people like them for fluffing up videos while behind the scenes they do literally nothing. What's so difficult to understand that little concept and that that alone was the point of this? It's actually not obvious, many people treat RIOT as though they were some sort of safe haven for the people. They aren't, and the business model works because people fall for it. The sad thing here is is that they're ripping off the actual people supporting them over the people who just play the game for free.
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On February 29 2012 10:49 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 09:53 koreasilver wrote:On February 29 2012 08:11 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I'll lay this out simply for you because you specifically have failed to argue against anything I've said and the fact that you have been saying you should just "ignore" it and because no one has a right to complain about any business. The comparison is for the sake of showing that people have a right to complain about bad production and services from a business that makes revenue off these same people. If these people are spending money how is this any different from someone spending money on anything else? You expect some sort of quality and service, but you still don't get it. People who drop money on this are no different from people who drop money on WoW and expect some maintenance and fixes. They're no different from people who subscribe to an ISP and expect a solid connection and customer support. Comparing this game to important public services is a false equivocation, which is a logical fallacy. But even if we do look at it from a business standpoint, it doesn't really make much sense. Riot has a pretty good customer support, and they do provide what they said they would, despite whatever problems. You just don't have a case because they didn't pull off a switcharoo or anything. Like I said, their marketing is blatant. It's right in your face, and they don't try to pretend that they're not trying to get your money through skins and packages that can only be bought with money. But it still works for them. So what does that mean? It means their business model works, and the company itself has no reason to change how they're going about it. As it is now, if you don't like what they're doing to a point of outright disgust, then you simply stop using their product, which is how things actually work in the real world. If you don't like the product a company is giving you, and the company shows no signs of changing their practice, then you just stop giving them business. This isn't any different from WoW, yeah. LoL gets maintenance and fixes, and yeah, they have decent servers and good customer support. You're engaging in an extraordinary waste of time because yes, Riot's system sucks in a lot of ways, no one will disagree with that. But you continue playing it, for whatever reasons, or you just quit and go to a competitor that doesn't have the things that you disagree about (DOTA2). But their business model isn't slimey in a underhanded sense. It's unabashedly direct and blatant that if you find it disagreeable you can just leave it. Which is how it works in the real world. What do you exactly think the point of this thread was...? I've pretty much been pointing out that RIOT is a shit developer and that people like them for fluffing up videos while behind the scenes they do literally nothing. What's so difficult to understand that little concept and that that alone was the point of this? It's actually not obvious, many people treat RIOT as though they were some sort of safe haven for the people. They aren't, and the business model works because people fall for it. The sad thing here is is that they're ripping off the actual people supporting them over the people who just play the game for free.
alright you need to calm down lol. You're being beligerent to the point where a converstation can't be had.
Riot is really cool because it's a (relatively) smaller developer and they are very integrated into the community. I can't think of many developers who's in-game names I know as well as morello's, phreak's, or pendragon's. You are being uneasonable when you say they do "literally" nothing. I challenge you to be a lead developer for a game as FUCKING huge as LoL is, and see how far that takes you. these guys work their ass off and take a shitload of public flack whenever things go wrong or not everyone's happy, which is always.
you point out a business model like it's some kind of develish thing. just so ya know, everything's a business, and everyone's trying to make money. LoL took a free to play style, so deal with it. they're not ripping anybody off because that assumes that
1. the people don't know what they're paying for
2. or they don't actually want what they'r paying for
just because YOU think it's a waste of money (for some fucked up reason) doesn't mean that riot is suddenly some evil corporation who's only aim is to steal all of your moniez.
welcome to the real world, where adults want to produce something of value while simultaneously making a living.
edit: additionally, I would like to add that there does exist a general problem with cost inflation with runes and champions, with little value being added to the IP we receive. and yes, a replay system would be nice. but I have LoLreplay, and the former can just be handled with patience, and feedback to the DEVELOPER that LISTENS to it's COMMUNITY
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On February 29 2012 10:49 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 09:53 koreasilver wrote:On February 29 2012 08:11 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I'll lay this out simply for you because you specifically have failed to argue against anything I've said and the fact that you have been saying you should just "ignore" it and because no one has a right to complain about any business. The comparison is for the sake of showing that people have a right to complain about bad production and services from a business that makes revenue off these same people. If these people are spending money how is this any different from someone spending money on anything else? You expect some sort of quality and service, but you still don't get it. People who drop money on this are no different from people who drop money on WoW and expect some maintenance and fixes. They're no different from people who subscribe to an ISP and expect a solid connection and customer support. Comparing this game to important public services is a false equivocation, which is a logical fallacy. But even if we do look at it from a business standpoint, it doesn't really make much sense. Riot has a pretty good customer support, and they do provide what they said they would, despite whatever problems. You just don't have a case because they didn't pull off a switcharoo or anything. Like I said, their marketing is blatant. It's right in your face, and they don't try to pretend that they're not trying to get your money through skins and packages that can only be bought with money. But it still works for them. So what does that mean? It means their business model works, and the company itself has no reason to change how they're going about it. As it is now, if you don't like what they're doing to a point of outright disgust, then you simply stop using their product, which is how things actually work in the real world. If you don't like the product a company is giving you, and the company shows no signs of changing their practice, then you just stop giving them business. This isn't any different from WoW, yeah. LoL gets maintenance and fixes, and yeah, they have decent servers and good customer support. You're engaging in an extraordinary waste of time because yes, Riot's system sucks in a lot of ways, no one will disagree with that. But you continue playing it, for whatever reasons, or you just quit and go to a competitor that doesn't have the things that you disagree about (DOTA2). But their business model isn't slimey in a underhanded sense. It's unabashedly direct and blatant that if you find it disagreeable you can just leave it. Which is how it works in the real world. What do you exactly think the point of this thread was...? I've pretty much been pointing out that RIOT is a shit developer and that people like them for fluffing up videos while behind the scenes they do literally nothing. What's so difficult to understand that little concept and that that alone was the point of this? It's actually not obvious, many people treat RIOT as though they were some sort of safe haven for the people. They aren't, and the business model works because people fall for it. The sad thing here is is that they're ripping off the actual people supporting them over the people who just play the game for free.
Riot made a game that millions of people world wide enjoy to play in their spare time. That's good imho
Their business model works because people are willing to spend money on things they enjoy, however because their game is free and millions of people don't spend a dime on their game they have to charge above average for average things.
There are idiots who spend hundreds on LoL for no real reason and get nowhere with their lost money; then there are people who are willing to support riot because they enjoy their game and are completely comfortable with dropping $20-$40 on something that has provided them with hours upon hours of entertainment with no up front cost.
Just because you don't like a DotA clone that doesn't come with everything unlocked from the start doesn't make Riot a shit developer. They've taken a new business approach to the gaming industry and have had massive success, and turned a portion of that success around and helped their community with esports etc.
As far as i can tell there is no argument here, all you're doing is stating "In my opinion I hate Riot because they do what they do."
Your opinion is valid, but I don't see any real reason as to why you're hating on them. You act like their business model works only because they're evil masterminds. I'd give that crown to Blizzard with WoW personally, but that's just my opinion.
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I'm going to highlight the point that makes your entire argument fall apart
If these people are spending money how is this any different from someone spending money on anything else? You expect some sort of quality and service, but you still don't get it.
Says who? Says you! Congratulations-we are now aware that YOU, and specifically YOU, are not happy with Riot's product. Does that mean that the people who spend money are unhappy? No! You(!) are the unhappy one! You(!) do not(!) speak for what other people expect out of a product, because you are not them. You are entirely hinging the argument that people should be unhappy about Riot on the idea that they have the same standards as you.
So you don't like Riot, you don't buy stuff from them. Everyone that does buy stuff likes them enough to buy stuff, so it's not your(!) problem that other people (not you!) are buying things!
The end~~~
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EPT
