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So to quickly summarise, this blog is just why I think the viewer numbers for League of Legends are much higher than Starcraft 2. I will look at it from a player and spectator viewpoint.
How the games Play Starcraft 2 Starcraft 2 is a beautifully complex game as we all know. Three races with an infinite number of potential build orders, a meta game that keeps changing, styles and popularity in builds, etc. However one thing that Starcraft 2 has more than most RTS, is the Fear of PvP competition, or as its been termed for SC2 "Ladder Fear". Its a very real thing, I partially get it myself. Its a brutal and very unforgiving game, where 10-50 minutes of heart-racing work can be totally thrown in your face from 1 mistake.
There is also a slightly different reason that is, what am I actually competing for? The chance to play more skilled players who are more likely to own me. Some types of gamers thrive on this endless competition without reward, but many do not, myself included.
While SC2 is a fantastic RTS, the expansion potential for it is extremely limited. 2 Expansions are planned and they will not make it a new game. Apart from that, Blizzard can't really do much except from balance patches. This game will eventually hit a dead end, I pray that eSports and the players who enjoy the game are enough to keep it going strong.
League of Legends League of Legends is not as complex but it does have more diversity. Yes you may argue the number of SC2 strategies far outnumber the Champions and team compositions in LoL, but you are still playing the same race, just slightly differently. Playing as a totally different Character, who has different attacks, gears up differently, looks, sounds differently. Everything is just different about each one.
The PvP is also less intimidating in LoL, you are still punished for making a mistake, but it doesn't lose you the game as easily as it will in SC2. I don't really have any kind of "Ladder Fear" in LoL, like I partially do in SC2. I will just add, in my experience so far in LoL, PvP is actually EASIER than playing vs the intermediate AI. The Bots in LoL don't really make mistakes that you can jump on, but players do.
Unlike SC2 you actually are competing for something tangible in LoL. For those unaware, you receive Exp and IP for winning or losing a game, the amount varies depending on the game itself. Exp adds to your Account level, 1-30. Increasing this unlocks new special spells you can use in the game itself, as well as new talent points or masteries. Also runes which give passive buffs to you in game as well. The IP currency is used to unlock new champions, as well as different Skins for them, along with the runes I mentioned above. You will run out of things to buy eventually, but that would take a long time. They also add new champions in frequently.
One thing LoL has that SC2 does not, is a teamplay focus. While SC2 does have team play options, they are not what the game is designed for and are usually just void ray/carrier brawls with no coordination at all 99% of the time. LoL has 3v3 and 5v5 options, you can't go 1v1 with a stranger (unless you form a custom game with that person specifically). People are just as angry and QQ'y as they can be in SC2, but team work happens more often in LoL. Each game is different due to the different compositions, it goes back to the very first line I said, there is more Diversity in LoL.
This style of game is hugely popular, easy to play, easy to watch, and not limited in terms of expanding. I've only played for about a month and they've added 2 new champions in that time. The eSports is a different beast all together, but to play these games will just keep growing and growing and growing.
To Spectate the Games Starcraft 2 I'm sure some of you by now assume I'm a SC2 hatin, LoL fanboy. You could not be more wrong. I only discovered SC2 eSports at Blizzcon in 2010 when Genius won the finals, but since then I've been hooked like crazy. I've cancelled my cable because I never watch it, I've quit some MMO's because I never play them, purely because I devote so much of my time to watching SC2 eSports. I love it, its the greatest thing in the world and I hope it keeps on getting better forever.
BUT its not exactly the easiest thing to start watching if you don't know the game. Thankfully I did know SC2 when I watched the Blizzcon 2010 finals (out of boredom, I was watching WoW panels live, forgive me..). so I was able to understand most of what I was seeing. However I'm sure a lot of readers will know that getting a non SC2 gamer into SC2 eSports can be really difficult. It took me about a whole freaking year to get my best friend into watching it, he's since bought the game and loves all of it, but still. Getting him in was a massive hurdle, it has been for other friends as well. The game has a lot of stagnation in the beginning stages, we know why that is, but non SC2 gamers have no idea. It requires so much explanation that they usually just get bored and go back to whatever the hell people who don't watch eSports do.
Once you get someone over the introductory hurdle they are highly likely to love it, but that hurdle is pretty huge. It can also be difficult for them to find anything to watch without you holding their hand the entire time. Its not on the TV, its spread across various websites at various times, most of which are terrible for live viewing (in Europe especially), and most of those websites are horrific to nagivate, even for regulars! Side Note: eSports companies, Simplify your damn websites
League of Legends Now, would I call LoL a better eSport? No. Would I say its a more popular eSport, absolutely. The reasons are obvious, so obvious I'll just make a list: 1. Its easy to watch, some characters attack each other, some win some die. Swords, Magic etc. 2. While LoL is also hidden away on websites, Riot advertise those in the game client itself. 3. It will be more popular purely because it has more players. Until eSports truly penetrate the non-gamer market like non-sports get into non-sports players markets, then this is a big deciding point.
The complexity and pure beautiful skill that pro SC2 gamers have is a big part of what makes SC2 eSports the winner for me, but that takes time to appreciate. It goes back to the main point, the barrier to entry for SC2 eSports spectating is much larger than LoL.
Summary The games themselves are very different. The skill and complexity of SC2 will always reign supreme, but the noob-friendliness and diversity of playability for LoL will also be supreme. The expandability of LoL will also keep going, where as SC2 will not.
To watch them is also very different. The complexity of SC2 is part of what makes it so awesome to watch, but for new spectators, understanding what they are seeing takes time and babysitting from someone who does know. Whereas LoL is almost exactly the opposite.
I would love for SC2 to take over the world and be on TV around the clock, but for several years at least LoL will stay ahead of it on viewer numbers and is likely to keep growing, probably at a faster rate than SC2.
Let me reclarify. I'm pro SC2. I don't prioritise watching LoL, I only check it out when I'm bored at work and there's no SC2 I want to watch.
Thanks for reading. - Tristran
tl;dr: I type too much.
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SC2 complex? 1a.
User was warned for this post
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Something important as a variable for Starcraft 2 changing is the maps. This may be the most important part in how strategy involves or changes. Remember when steppes of war was a map? (maybe not if your new) Anyways its a very small map that was featured in very early tournaments and ladder, resulting in many rushes. Could you imagine 15 nexus on Steppes of War PvT. Also the game will not only change with balance patches but with new units, with the new expansions. 1-2 New unit per race changes almost every strategy for every matchup/how they are played.
Also LoL skins can only be bought with real money aka RP. Additionally, in LoL many champions are pretty close copys to each other. Very similar roles/abilities. Also competitive LoL (5v5) is only played on one map. Items are another thing, some are just bad and need to be fixed, and some are a similar working worst counter part of another. Champions who fit into different roles usually has similar item builds in similar situations.
Not hating on either but just mentioning a few things I thought about your thoughts.
Overall I play both SC2 and LoL a lot. With SC2 being a more serious I want to win game, and LoL being a casual I want to play games game. Both are good games, and good esports. I would SC2 the advantage for watching for sure because of its faster paced action.
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Nice read
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Interesting take on it. I think you will find that LoL ranked games at level 30 have their fair share of 'ladder anxiety' as well. And as you level up your opponents are harder in LoL, just like you said you didn't like in starcraft 2.
Also, bots are harder than players? Where are these players you are beating on! ; )
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Well, counterpoint from someone who tried but can't get into watching LOL: It is very often quite boring. Nothing happens until the 15 min mark, and then there are huge lulls in battle. Matches are almost always 30-40 minutes long, and there are five players to follow and track instead of one player -- meaning you don't even get to see everything.
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I find it hard to believe that sc2 is harder to understand than LoL. I tried watching LoL and I couldn't figure out what's going on. Everything's a spell caster and without understanding what spells are being thrown around and what effect they have it's really hard to keep watching. On the other hand if you show someone a TvZ i would imagine they'd be able to understand what they're seeing. Bugs vs humans. I mean everyone's watched aliens or starship troopers before right?
I remember when I first started watching bw i didn't like it when the game went into the late game just because there's so many different kinds of units and spellcasters. With the dozens of champions of LoL it's even more confusing. I'm not saying sc2 is easy to understand, something like counter strike is a lot simpler although once the basics are down sc2 is more spectator friendly. SC2 could improve in many ways though, like changing the way the units clump up. The action can get pretty confusing when deathballs are out especially if the casters dont have the decency to turn healthbars off.
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At least LoL community doesn't entitle themselves as the ONLY ESPORTS game like SC2 community so ridiculously often do.
..or do they?
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LoL is a social game you play with friends. i would never have played LoL alone because that is probably the most surefire way to become one of those solo queue tryhards that blame teammates for their own shortcomings.
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On February 23 2012 03:33 Mementoss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Something important as a variable for Starcraft 2 changing is the maps. This may be the most important part in how strategy involves or changes. Remember when steppes of war was a map? (maybe not if your new) Anyways its a very small map that was featured in very early tournaments and ladder, resulting in many rushes. Could you imagine 15 nexus on Steppes of War PvT. Also the game will not only change with balance patches but with new units, with the new expansions. 1-2 New unit per race changes almost every strategy for every matchup/how they are played. Also LoL skins can only be bought with real money aka RP. Additionally, in LoL many champions are pretty close copys to each other. Very similar roles/abilities. Also competitive LoL (5v5) is only played on one map. Items are another thing, some are just bad and need to be fixed, and some are a similar working worst counter part of another. Champions who fit into different roles usually has similar item builds in similar situations. Not hating on either but just mentioning a few things I thought about your thoughts. Overall I play both SC2 and LoL a lot. With SC2 being a more serious I want to win game, and LoL being a casual I want to play games game. Both are good games, and good esports. I would SC2 the advantage for watching for sure because of its faster paced action.
Yea the potential for Starcraft 2 isn't completely dead, its just severely limited. The expansions will be large changes and as the meta game keeps advancing the game will keep changing, but there is a limit. Unless Blizzard has plans to add in new units or do massive changes in patches after the 2 expansions, then the only change is meta-game. Maps are a nice point, but even they are quite limited also. People have had years to learn about maps from BW.
On February 23 2012 03:37 Eben wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Interesting take on it. I think you will find that LoL ranked games at level 30 have their fair share of 'ladder anxiety' as well. And as you level up your opponents are harder in LoL, just like you said you didn't like in starcraft 2.
Also, bots are harder than players? Where are these players you are beating on! ; )
The AI I'm reffering to is the intermediate co-op vs ai thing. They have proven to be more difficult than random PvP 5v5 so far. I guess I must play a lot of noobs I'm not 30 yet, I'm lvl 14 atm.
I'm sure that ranked lvl 30 games have more of the ladder fear, but still not as severe as SC2. Your with a team, you aren't going to lose based on 1 mistake. Both of those crucial points help alleviate the fear.
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+ Show Spoiler +On February 23 2012 03:47 Tristran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 03:33 Mementoss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Something important as a variable for Starcraft 2 changing is the maps. This may be the most important part in how strategy involves or changes. Remember when steppes of war was a map? (maybe not if your new) Anyways its a very small map that was featured in very early tournaments and ladder, resulting in many rushes. Could you imagine 15 nexus on Steppes of War PvT. Also the game will not only change with balance patches but with new units, with the new expansions. 1-2 New unit per race changes almost every strategy for every matchup/how they are played. Also LoL skins can only be bought with real money aka RP. Additionally, in LoL many champions are pretty close copys to each other. Very similar roles/abilities. Also competitive LoL (5v5) is only played on one map. Items are another thing, some are just bad and need to be fixed, and some are a similar working worst counter part of another. Champions who fit into different roles usually has similar item builds in similar situations. Not hating on either but just mentioning a few things I thought about your thoughts. Overall I play both SC2 and LoL a lot. With SC2 being a more serious I want to win game, and LoL being a casual I want to play games game. Both are good games, and good esports. I would SC2 the advantage for watching for sure because of its faster paced action. Yea the potential for Starcraft 2 isn't completely dead, its just severely limited. The expansions will be large changes and as the meta game keeps advancing the game will keep changing, but there is a limit. Unless Blizzard has plans to add in new units or do massive changes in patches after the 2 expansions, then the only change is meta-game. Maps are a nice point, but even they are quite limited also. People have had years to learn about maps from BW. Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 03:37 Eben wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Interesting take on it. I think you will find that LoL ranked games at level 30 have their fair share of 'ladder anxiety' as well. And as you level up your opponents are harder in LoL, just like you said you didn't like in starcraft 2.
Also, bots are harder than players? Where are these players you are beating on! ; ) The AI I'm reffering to is the intermediate co-op vs ai thing. They have proven to be more difficult than random PvP 5v5 so far. I guess I must play a lot of noobs I'm not 30 yet, I'm lvl 14 atm.
I'm sure that ranked lvl 30 games have more of the ladder fear, but still not as severe as SC2. Your with a team, you aren't going to lose based on 1 mistake. Both of those crucial points help alleviate the fear.
You may not lose by one mistake of mis microing your marines into a baneling and that is true. However after the game has reached the 50 minute mark if you mess up and lose one teamfight, its over.
Also in Sc2 you have only yourself to blame, in LoL you get into a ranked game, pumped to win, and then all the sudden one of your 4 other teammates goes 0-5 in the first 7 minutes, giving their Carry a massive lead. Or one of your teammates decides to rage quit, meaning you lose the game, or someone just gets up and goes AFK, causing you to lose the game.
Having to rely on teammates is one of the most frustrating things I can think of. Any one of the 4 random people can lose you the game if they feel like trolling you or are just playing poorly, no matter how well you yourself are playing.
One on One is stressful for sure, but team games in general can be equally frustrating.
I did like your write up though!
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nice read, but some point i would disagree:
1. as someone who plays sc2 regularly since release and just started to play lol out of curiosity, i have to say that is have more "fear" to play lol than sc2. as noobfriendly the lol may be, the lol community is not. in fact, the community is almost unbearable. and this is not even the fault of the players, its the nature of the game. when i screw up in sc2, is only affects my gaming experience, but when i screw up in lol, it effects the gaming experience of my whole team, so naturally you have to deal with flamers, which can be very stressful, or at least annoying. so until the lol community grows up, i wouldn't call lol noobfriendly.
2. what do you mean by blizzard cant do much except balance patches? what is the limitation of a balance patch? you do realize that what lol is doing and what blizzard is doing with their patches is technically the same. blizzard can also add content, they just added a new upgrade. and technically, they COULD add new units through patches (although i dont think they will ever do)
3. i don't see how lol, with 100 of different heros, spells and items is easier to watch for a non-player than sc2. if you simplify if by just saying its some characters attacking each other, you could also say sc2 is just 2 armies attacking each other. in lol, you have also the laning and farming phase, which is boring to watch and the purpose hard to understand if you don't play the game. i would say sc2 is easier to watch if you don't play it than lol.
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On February 23 2012 03:56 tztztz wrote: nice read, but some point i would disagree:
1. as someone who plays sc2 regularly since release and just started to play lol out of curiosity, i have to say that is have more "fear" to play lol than sc2. as noobfriendly the lol may be, the lol community is not. in fact, the community is almost unbearable. and this is not even the fault of the players, its the nature of the game. when i screw up in sc2, is only affects my gaming experience, but when i screw up in lol, it effects the gaming experience of my whole team, so naturally you have to deal with flamers, which can be very stressful, or at least annoying. so until the lol community grows up, i wouldn't call lol noobfriendly.
2. what do you mean by blizzard cant do much except balance patches? what is the limitation of a balance patch? you do realize that what lol is doing and what blizzard is doing with their patches is technically the same. blizzard can also add content, they just added a new upgrade. and technically, they COULD add new units through patches (although i dont think they will ever do)
3. i don't see how lol, with 100 of different heros, spells and items is easier to watch for a non-player than sc2. if you simplify if by just saying its some characters attacking each other, you could also say sc2 is just 2 armies attacking each other. in lol, you have also the laning and farming phase, which is boring to watch and the purpose hard to understand if you don't play the game. i would say sc2 is easier to watch if you don't play it than lol. Yeah I pretty much agree with none of this. I'm in masters sc2 and was about 1750 elo in LoL when I stopped playing it, and honestly I fucking hate playing LoL now. There is a huge "entry barrier" to new players, since even in low levels if you do something wrong you will be attacked by your teammates for being a troll, a terrible player, go kill yourself go f*** your mother etc etc.... There's BM in sc2 but since you are only playing versus 1 other player it's much less flagrant since most people are happy to take your ladder points and go on their way. I managed to stick through a lot of the BS and get to a reasonably high elo, and up there it's even worse. There are so many people who just queue up, troll everyone on their team, and get carried to higher levels because the other 4 people are actually trying to play well and win the game.
LoL is 100% easier to watch and play. It's not even close. Yeah, there are a crapload of heroes and spells and such, but here's the concept behind every game. 1. Go to lanes, kill creeps for farm, kill retards on the enemy team that aren't farming and keeping up. 2. Get items with farm. 3. Secure objectives (towers or neutral buffs). 4. Teamfight and win game.
Sc2 is an incredibly simple game when compared to its predecessor, but it still has so much more complexity than a moba style game. There are specific build orders, unit micro tricks, MAPS are a huge factor since you can play on hundreds of different environments as compared to a moba where you play one over and over, and the fact that your opponent's build is completely hidden from you until you scout it. The items of every enemy hero that you ever gain vision of are revealed to all the players in LoL.
I wanted to start playing HoN instead of LoL, but I just got lazy and decided to try to get into grandmasters first. On the real though, it's kind of absurd how simple of a game LoL is.
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I was really afraid to open your blog but I liked your summary. The one point that I might not agree on is that LoL is easier to watch than SC2. I find that once you add the extra players there is a lot of action that is being missed by the spectators and especially during the laning phase. SC2 has an amazing build up to the end game battles. Plenty of time for the casters to talk about strategies and playstyles.
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I dont agree that LoL is easier to watch than SC2, if anything, they're both as hard to watch as any other competitive game. Whenever you watch a pro LoL game you usually see up to 10-15 minutes of passive "farming" because thats how most games go,
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On February 23 2012 04:11 HyperionDreamer wrote: LoL is 100% easier to watch and play. It's not even close. Yeah, there are a crapload of heroes and spells and such, but here's the concept behind every game. 1. Go to lanes, kill creeps for farm, kill retards on the enemy team that aren't farming and keeping up. 2. Get items with farm. 3. Secure objectives (towers or neutral buffs). 4. Teamfight and win game.
this is a blunt oversimplification, you could do this with sc2 too. lol is only mechanically easier to play. but it's not an easy game in terms of figuring out the best way to win and being able to do it. its like saying soccer is harder than chess. or chess is harder than soccer. if lol would be so easy, you would only see people doing the same thing. but look at pro level lol, the opposite is true. the same for non pro level. as long as you don't have figured out a game, and as long as there is a pro scene, both games are equally hard.
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Completely disagree when you say it's easier to spectate LoL. If you don't know the heroes then you have no idea what's going on in team fights or at any time. SC2 is a lot easier to pick up from a spectators POV as there aren't that many units and they're all pretty simple. Marines shoot stuff, banelings blow shit up.
In any case, I think comparisons like this are about as useful as comparing basketball to cycling.
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I honestly don't even find DotA-type-games entertaining to watch. It's slow, most of the actual complexity and skill of the game is very hard for the spectator to see, it takes forever for anything to happen, and battles are over in a few minutes and are very hard to follow if you don't know what all the spell effects mean. Even if I don't understand the complex strategy in SC2, I can still enjoy massive battles of aliens and marines fighting each other, and easily follow the flow of the game as to who's ahead and behind, who has a bigger army, etc; in LoL, I'm looking at brightly-colored fantasy heroes running around in a forest, and I have very little idea what's going on.
This is not a condemnation of LoL or anything; I can see how it could be very entertaining if you know what's going on and are a LoL player. I just honestly don't really see the appeal of the DotA genre as a spectator sport that will be watched by people who aren't actually playing the game. I can see that with SC2; I just can't with DotA.
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What x.x
LoL is without a doubt harder to understand to the outsider. Starcraft is about units running around hitting each other and blowing stuff up. Forcefields look like barriers. Lasers look like lasers. Explosions hurt. And the bigger base often means the stronger side. The only thing that isn't obvious that hurts are zerglings and hydras in SC2 because their attack sounds like gentle breezes or bugs splattering across windshields.
LoL is a lot more difficult to understand in that respect. Sure while the density of each player's health bar is a decent indicator of how much punishment they can take, their abilities aren't immediately obvious. Nor are items completely obvious in what they do. Creep ai is also incredibly difficult to understand. Laning phase looks stupidly boring to someone who doesn't understand how it works and the intricacies behind it, teamfights finish in seconds and often just look like a giant explosion of lights. Even to a seasoned veteran they often have to watch the same fight half a dozen times to catch everything.
That being said I still think Starcraft is still the more difficult of the two to play simply because there's a higher mechanical skillcap but that's irrelevant to spectator difficulty.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
I personally find LoL (and any Moba) almost impossible to watch having never played it, I found SC2 much easier when I first started watching with HD and Husky. I also found Quake and all fighting games much easier, I find Moba's really hard to watch in general.
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On February 23 2012 04:46 tztztz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 04:11 HyperionDreamer wrote: LoL is 100% easier to watch and play. It's not even close. Yeah, there are a crapload of heroes and spells and such, but here's the concept behind every game. 1. Go to lanes, kill creeps for farm, kill retards on the enemy team that aren't farming and keeping up. 2. Get items with farm. 3. Secure objectives (towers or neutral buffs). 4. Teamfight and win game.
this is a blunt oversimplification, you could do this with sc2 too. lol is only mechanically easier to play. but it's not an easy game in terms of figuring out the best way to win and being able to do it. its like saying soccer is harder than chess. or chess is harder than soccer. if lol would be so easy, you would only see people doing the same thing. but look at pro level lol, the opposite is true. the same for non pro level. as long as you don't have figured out a game, and as long as there is a pro scene, both games are equally hard.
LoL is without a doubt harder to understand to the outsider. Starcraft is about units running around hitting each other and blowing stuff up. Forcefields look like barriers. Lasers look like lasers. Explosions hurt. And the bigger base often means the stronger side. The only thing that isn't obvious that hurts are zerglings and hydras in SC2 because their attack sounds like gentle breezes or bugs splattering across windshields.
LoL is a lot more difficult to understand in that respect. Sure while the density of each player's health bar is a decent indicator of how much punishment they can take, their abilities aren't immediately obvious. Nor are items completely obvious in what they do. Creep ai is also incredibly difficult to understand. Laning phase looks stupidly boring to someone who doesn't understand how it works and the intricacies behind it, teamfights finish in seconds and often just look like a giant explosion of lights. Even to a seasoned veteran they often have to watch the same fight half a dozen times to catch everything.
That being said I still think Starcraft is still the more difficult of the two to play simply because there's a higher mechanical skillcap but that's irrelevant to spectator difficulty.
No, I don't think so. In starcraft you think in terms of expansions, and units to properly defend your expansions. In LoL you think of "let's farm up this lane so I can get big item and win the game". I don't know if you've played LoL at a high level (I have), but one of the HUGE issues that high level players talk about is the one dimensionality of the current metagame. One bruiser/sustain hero top lane, caster AP mid, ranged DPS/support hero bot lane, tanky sustain jungler/ganker. Every. Single. Game. I don't mean to sound blunt or boastful, but LoL is one of the most ridiculously derivative games I've ever played, and a lot of the people who talk about variety and new team compositions are basing that opinion off their super bad level of play where literally anything is viable.
The only thing I can definitely see newcomers to LoL having trouble understanding is the clusterfuck-style teamfights. Often there is so many skills being casted and particle effects going off that you can't really see what's going on, unless you know the heros and exactly what they are supposed to do.
Imagine trying to explain a 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra (brood war if you didn't play it) or a ffe into stargate pressure and early third (starcraft 2) to someone who doesn't even know what the units do. Those builds are based on so much timing, mechanics, and smart play, not to mention the metagame, that you can't just say "this guy just made some units that shoot up to defend his base". But you can explain LoL laning phase in like 10 seconds. Here I go: "Bottom lane is about one ranged hero that can secure his farm and then get big items, and the support hero heals him if he takes damage."
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I thought we were talking about SC2 x.x
If we include BW in this discussion then I'm going to just say that every matchup is harder and more difficult and complex ony any map than any matchup SC2 has to offer and any game LoL will ever have. I could go on about elevator rushes and Sair/DT timings and sunken busts with various marine counts etc etc and how they're all different from very similar yet completely different builds just because of the goals behind them. Besides the point.
Given an equal amount of explanation LoL may be easier to understand, but you have to know that these champs are common AD picks, these are common support picks, these are common AP picks, etc etc. And it's not immediatly evident from their character models. Look at Mordekaiser. How does that look like an AP pick? What about Jarvan tells you he's a jungle pick? What does Swain even do? These things aren't immediatly obvious and take a bit of memorizing to do, whereas you can tell that hydras are ranged dps units really quickly, that colossi are big and do damage, and that siege tanks can hit things that are really far away. Sure economy and timings are much more difficult to understand, but I'm pretty sure even a lot of players don't understand those concepts (that's why we have bronze-diamond leagues ;D)
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On February 23 2012 05:24 MCDayC wrote: I personally find LoL (and any Moba) almost impossible to watch having never played it, I found SC2 much easier when I first started watching with HD and Husky. I also found Quake and all fighting games much easier, I find Moba's really hard to watch in general.
Tell me about it. I have never really played a moba game and whenever I watch someone play them I can't help but see this slugfest where the characters just sit in their lanes and farm mobs. And when action happens, it doesn't last long, nor does it look like the battle is decisive since the other team doesn't march into the enemy base to finish it off (I'm sure this is not always the case, but usually there are still towers left). It just feels like watching one of those long-drawn out mech TvT's. I think it helps SC2 a lot compared to LoL, where when someone wins a battle convincingly, you can see the opponent have nothing as the player marches into their base. With moba games you just don't have that as the two teams grind each other down over the course of an hour or so.
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I find LoL incredibly boring to watch because there is not enough action going on and games are too long. Watching pros farm creeps is just not fun at all. In sc2 the different parts of the games are fun to watch but in LoL only midgame and some late game fight worth it.
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On February 23 2012 06:23 seRapH wrote: I thought we were talking about SC2 x.x
If we include BW in this discussion then I'm going to just say that every matchup is harder and more difficult and complex ony any map than any matchup SC2 has to offer and any game LoL will ever have. I could go on about elevator rushes and Sair/DT timings and sunken busts with various marine counts etc etc and how they're all different from very similar yet completely different builds just because of the goals behind them. Besides the point.
Given an equal amount of explanation LoL may be easier to understand, but you have to know that these champs are common AD picks, these are common support picks, these are common AP picks, etc etc. And it's not immediatly evident from their character models. Look at Mordekaiser. How does that look like an AP pick? What about Jarvan tells you he's a jungle pick? What does Swain even do? These things aren't immediatly obvious and take a bit of memorizing to do, whereas you can tell that hydras are ranged dps units really quickly, that colossi are big and do damage, and that siege tanks can hit things that are really far away. Sure economy and timings are much more difficult to understand, but I'm pretty sure even a lot of players don't understand those concepts (that's why we have bronze-diamond leagues ;D) Of course that's true for brood war over any other game <3 bw, but you're right that's beside the point. ^_^
I agree with your points about morde/swain, since both of those are super weird heroes that have strange sets of abilities. Morde isn't a traditional caster that wears a wizard hat and carries a staff and puts out a metric ton of damage if they don't immediately die if you look at them wrong, but I think after you watch him for a few minutes you'd get the feeling that he's a super pushy laner who can win almost any drawn out 1v1 fight with a negligible amount of spell vamp. Swain is a super good anti-bruiser who has an AoE root and can stay alive forever if he's got the blue (really underrated hero btw). Jarvan is a lot more obvious.... Tough physical hero with a gap closer and a CC that allows him to come out of jungle and surprise buttsmex a lot of people. Sure you may not be able to immediately tell at first glance, but maybe after 2-3 minutes you'd get the gist of it that whenever morde raises his arm a whole shit ton of stuff in a cone in front of him gets hurt.
That's only a few of the heros in LoL though, and I'd say that most of them are super obvious. It's obvious what vayne does, what brand does, etc etc....
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I think ladder attrition and ladder anxiety (which I think are maybe not the most important, but still pretty important factors behind sc2 viewer numbers) can be allayed just by having a better, more inclusive, more community-friendly UI that encourages more interaction. The fact that it's so isolating only amplifies that anxiety and pressure you feel-- for most 1v1 players, win/lose is really your only interaction with the wider b.net population.
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please...rewrite this blog after you reach lvl30 and play at least ~50 ladder games and let me know how you feel about the solo queue...lol it is like a drug..it is bad and u know you should stay away from it for your mental health but...can't resist queuing lol
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I wouldn't limit your arguement over moba (or laning games) to just LoL... imo the main reason LoL has the biggest fanbase is because its always been free
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On February 23 2012 07:02 The6357 wrote: please...rewrite this blog after you reach lvl30 and play at least ~50 ladder games and let me know how you feel about the solo queue...lol it is like a drug..it is bad and u know you should stay away from it for your mental health but...can't resist queuing lol Hahaha I know about this. For a while before I quit the game I was bleeding elo down from 1750 to like 1600 and kept getting troll fested all day every day.... But I kept queueing and raging...... D=
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As a person who used to play LoL and watch Lol, the experience of watching LoL declined over time. There seems to be at least a superficial lack of variety in the games after a point. After I stopped playing, my desire to watch games stopped completely, whereas there have been periods where I played little SC2 but still watched a lot of games.
Just my 2 cents.
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If only i could get carried in my 1v1s... would be no problem.
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Perhaps the best point the OP made, is that in eSports, spectators are almost entirely limited to players. The fact that LoL is not as punishing as SC2, plus how LoL feels much more casual overall, makes it have a bigger player audience, and therefore spectator audience.
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Arts's are much much much harder to get into than classic resource management rts's. In arts's you need mass knowledge about heroes and spells. In rts's all a newbie needs to know are the basic rock-paper-scissors relations between units and some basic economy knowledge and thats all to get you started.
And to people that say that arts's are simple and not intriguing to watch. My reaction when a friend of mine introduced me to dota, 5-6 years ago was "So thats it? I just go to a lane, fight and thats all? Every game is the same thing? Thats boring". Yet dota has given me the biggest nerd chills than any other game ever has. Its so awesome I almost pitty those that dont follow it. So do yourselves a favor and give it a chance.
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On February 23 2012 06:24 Keltanokka wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 05:24 MCDayC wrote: I personally find LoL (and any Moba) almost impossible to watch having never played it, I found SC2 much easier when I first started watching with HD and Husky. I also found Quake and all fighting games much easier, I find Moba's really hard to watch in general. Tell me about it. I have never really played a moba game and whenever I watch someone play them I can't help but see this slugfest where the characters just sit in their lanes and farm mobs. And when action happens, it doesn't last long, nor does it look like the battle is decisive since the other team doesn't march into the enemy base to finish it off (I'm sure this is not always the case, but usually there are still towers left). It just feels like watching one of those long-drawn out mech TvT's. I think it helps SC2 a lot compared to LoL, where when someone wins a battle convincingly, you can see the opponent have nothing as the player marches into their base. With moba games you just don't have that as the two teams grind each other down over the course of an hour or so. I find this incredibly ironic considering I find that SC2 works the exact same way. Especially TvP.
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On February 23 2012 06:23 seRapH wrote: I thought we were talking about SC2 x.x
If we include BW in this discussion then I'm going to just say that every matchup is harder and more difficult and complex ony any map than any matchup SC2 has to offer and any game LoL will ever have. I could go on about elevator rushes and Sair/DT timings and sunken busts with various marine counts etc etc and how they're all different from very similar yet completely different builds just because of the goals behind them. Besides the point.
Given an equal amount of explanation LoL may be easier to understand, but you have to know that these champs are common AD picks, these are common support picks, these are common AP picks, etc etc. And it's not immediatly evident from their character models. Look at Mordekaiser. How does that look like an AP pick? What about Jarvan tells you he's a jungle pick? What does Swain even do? These things aren't immediatly obvious and take a bit of memorizing to do, whereas you can tell that hydras are ranged dps units really quickly, that colossi are big and do damage, and that siege tanks can hit things that are really far away. Sure economy and timings are much more difficult to understand, but I'm pretty sure even a lot of players don't understand those concepts (that's why we have bronze-diamond leagues ;D) I remember when I first started and just focused amumu all the time this one game cause he was small and thought he'd die fast.
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On February 23 2012 07:49 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 06:23 seRapH wrote: I thought we were talking about SC2 x.x
If we include BW in this discussion then I'm going to just say that every matchup is harder and more difficult and complex ony any map than any matchup SC2 has to offer and any game LoL will ever have. I could go on about elevator rushes and Sair/DT timings and sunken busts with various marine counts etc etc and how they're all different from very similar yet completely different builds just because of the goals behind them. Besides the point.
Given an equal amount of explanation LoL may be easier to understand, but you have to know that these champs are common AD picks, these are common support picks, these are common AP picks, etc etc. And it's not immediatly evident from their character models. Look at Mordekaiser. How does that look like an AP pick? What about Jarvan tells you he's a jungle pick? What does Swain even do? These things aren't immediatly obvious and take a bit of memorizing to do, whereas you can tell that hydras are ranged dps units really quickly, that colossi are big and do damage, and that siege tanks can hit things that are really far away. Sure economy and timings are much more difficult to understand, but I'm pretty sure even a lot of players don't understand those concepts (that's why we have bronze-diamond leagues ;D) I remember when I first started and just focused amumu all the time this one game cause he was small and thought he'd die fast. Did this too lol. Double thornmail warmogs amumu and I die to lack of knowledge. 2 years later and I die because I thought my Yi would tank tower but then he alpha strikes to de-aggro and then I die x.x
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Sc2 is presented with clean, clear progressions of the game. There are noticable build-ups of tension at various stages of the game. There are key plays in a game that make the crowd go 'ooh' and 'aww'. Clear advantages can be seen through army size/positioning, base count, and production tabs, which in turn makes the game's information very easy to digest.
LoL is a clusterfuck of classes, items, and confusing shiny effects with most of the action being really linear, with no one having clear advantages a lot of the time as there are so many variables in play.
I don't see how it's even really debatable that SC2 is easier to watch to a newcomer.
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It's already been said a lot in this thread, but SC2 in no way is more difficult to understand than LoL - the way you described LoL is completely wrong, whereas if you said SC2 is about killing the other guy through using your units - you wouldn't be as off base.
"The PvP is also less intimidating in LoL, you are still punished for making a mistake, but it doesn't lose you the game as easily as it will in SC2. I don't really have any kind of "Ladder Fear" in LoL, like I partially do in SC2. I will just add, in my experience so far in LoL, PvP is actually EASIER than playing vs the intermediate AI. The Bots in LoL don't really make mistakes that you can jump on, but players do."
This makes me question what level your account is in LoL and if you play ranked - reddit has the same discussion of playing ranked fear as much as starcraft ladder fear is played out. Bots are also 100% win rate for yourself if you play with any logic, losing to bots and beating humans makes me think you've only played a few games to level 5 or something since LoL does change fundamentally at level 30 and ranked.
- Playing as a "totally different" hero also is not nearly as difficult as mastering a race in starcraft. at all.
Either way, the gist of the relevant points is that is "free" and has a massive player base. You can attribute some of Riot's promotion (which just to clarify again for other people does not autoplay from client, merely provides a link when a big tourney is on) to it's success, but it just took off as an easier version of DOTA this past year because it's just fun to play (and playing this with friends gets a lot less boring than 4s or 3s in SC2, where the game is and should be focused on 1s). The same thing happened with SC2, promotion and noob-friendly version of Brood War (and a pre-established scene) allowed SC2 to take off, more people just wanted to play ARTS.
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Are there many more LoL players than SC2 players?
There must be, as someone who has only played LoL a couple of times, when I tune into a stream or tournament I have NO IDEA WHAT'S GOING ON.
I assume that you need to be a fairly avid LoL player in order to understand what's happening.
I'd surmise that SC2 is much more simple to understand if you hadn't ever played it. (I started playing BW after seeing some moletrap/diggity/klazart english casts.
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I think another reason for more viewers is that there are fewer LoL events going on at any one time. With me, I usually have to choose to either play Starcraft or watch Starcraft with my free time. If there were only a few, well advertised events, I would definitely tune in more often.
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I don't get the comparison of sc2 = lol and dota = BW. Blizz was trying to make a sequel to BW and only change it slightly while maintaining the essence of the series. Riot on the other hand has stated repeatedly that LOL was designed with a different philosophy from dota and make a new type of MOBA/ARTS.
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Well you could compare the intent behind the games or the games themselves. LoL is a simplified dota game, SC2 is a simplified BW. They are much easier to play for the average person and both have lost a lot of the depth of the original.
If you think SC2 is only "slightly" different than BW you haven't played much BW
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i tried lol a few weeks ago and deleted it after 2 days of playing. one of the most boring games I have ever played. but I also hate micro in general, so lol isn't exactly made for me.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 24 2012 00:08 Zorkmid wrote: Are there many more LoL players than SC2 players?
There must be, as someone who has only played LoL a couple of times, when I tune into a stream or tournament I have NO IDEA WHAT'S GOING ON.
I assume that you need to be a fairly avid LoL player in order to understand what's happening.
I'd surmise that SC2 is much more simple to understand if you hadn't ever played it. (I started playing BW after seeing some moletrap/diggity/klazart english casts. Part of the problem is that a lot of the casters that get used at competitive LoL events really suck at casting.
The lack of an official replay system also makes it really hard for amateur casters to get practice/exposure.
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LoL will always be a high pop game, they draw people in with their free to play style, while making money with their in game store which has a lot of incentives to get people to purchase skins and such
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OKAY. First I'd like to say I enjoy watching both of them. I find LoL easier to play and more relaxing, at the same time I don't believe sc2 is Oh So Difficult at masters lvl on NA.
That being said. I think LoL wins cause Raynor wouldn't be able to beat Shen in a 1v1 Fight. sc2 vs LoL right?... right..?
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Midas I'm going to confess that in the off-season, I tried out StarCraft 2 and League of Legends. I was so surprised when I first played StarCraft 2. I couldn't believe that such an easy game exists. Same with League of Legends. I guess the best way to attract people these days is to make things easy and simple.
They're certainly different games, that's for sure. But as an esport, is there really a difference? I guess LoL is starting to become legitimate with OGN.
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sc2 is easy to learn and hard to master. and lol is easier to master but the initial hurdle is bigger.
As an observer sport(and i am primarily a dota with some sc2 player) sc2 is just soooo much more enjoyable. And in that regard id imagine lol being about the same if not slightly worse for observing
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This whole conversation that tries to compare the skill of LoL vs SC2 is just funny. They are two different games that require different skill sets.
SC2 requires a lot more mechanical skill and multi tasking ability.
LoL requires a lot more group strategy meshing champion abilities AND player personalities into a cohesive team that anticipates each others thoughts and decisions.
I am not sure why so many people want to compare the two. I know the highest of LoL skill players would probably look like noobs on gm ladders of sc2. But guess what, I have had my friends that are master league sc2 players hop on LoL and think that its the easiest game and they were sent home QQ'ing. SC2 takes a lot of skill and LoL takes a lot of skill. It's just DIFFERENT skills and so the SC2 or LoL fanbois don't respect the other game. If you don't agree with this go play whichever game you think is easier and post your ladder progress here.
With that said I prefer to watch SC2 streams more than LoL.
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I think the average person prefers watching team sports (SC2 isn't a team sport, despite the existence of teams).
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Saying LoL isnt as hard is kinda wrong.. Just the hardness is different, hardness in lol is about positioning, map awareness, speculating enemy's behavior. sc2 has less of that and more of a mechanic button mashing sidel
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On April 09 2012 18:59 remedium wrote: I think the average person prefers watching team sports (SC2 isn't a team sport, despite the existence of teams). and play.
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Why was this thread bumped lol.
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HI I'M LVL 15 IN LOL, but don't worry, this game is soooooo super easy. I have a hard time beating the medium ai bots, who are waaaaaay easier than the people I play against...
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Only watch broodwar and LoL >.<
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Calgary25942 Posts
They're both awesome games
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I play lol a lot and never tried starcraft. For me the entry cost is a barier. Not that I cant afford it but when I have free options around that I just love so much I never felt like spending money on something that I may or may not like.
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On April 09 2012 20:35 storkfan wrote: Saying LoL isnt as hard is kinda wrong.. Just the hardness is different, hardness in lol is about positioning, map awareness, speculating enemy's behavior. sc2 has less of that and more of a mechanic button mashing sidel
eh? SC2 has that too.... SC2 is the more difficult game, there is no doubt. LoL is more teamwork. I cannot imagine LoL pros playing SC2 well at a competitive level, but SC2 progamers can easily transition if they want to and practice as a group.
I myself have not played LOL, but the concept behind it sounds like DOTA, and while fun it seems to be the kind of game you play with friends (so you have to find friends willing to play these kind of games....urgh). For me SC2 has become...not so interesting anymore for me....watching GSL and other tournaments. I wish that we had SC2 format, but the game is BW (so same ladder system, but BW, GSL tournaments, but playing BW). This HoTS does not look very good from the replays I watched via Husky's channel and I have now uninstalled SC2 recently.
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Holy bump Batman!
I was sad that SC2 was not BW in 3D and that proleague died so I switched to LoL. Then LoL came out with pre-season 3 and I stopped playing. Maybe I have outgrown games, maybe I just don't think either game is as good as their fan-bases think.
I'll admit that when I started playing LoL it was to relax after a BW session and it definitely felt easier for the individual, but there is a lot of it that's out of your control and I suppose that it is the unpredictability of the game that makes it interesting to watch.
If I had to say why I liked one more than the other it is because it's easier for me to follow 10 shiny things on the screen that two gigantic shiny blobs. It really is a matter of preference and you can say both are decent games. LoL is mainly more popular because it's free to play.
All in all it's pretty safe to state that both of them are the largest pillars of ESPORTS right now, so just get along and enjoy what you have.
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