EPTThe Ghost Nerf is Being Done Wrong - Page 28
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Divinek
Canada4045 Posts
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IncomT
Sweden1 Post
However, I think you are being a bit blinded and naive when it comes to this change to ghosts. I also think you have not thought it through enough before you actually posted your thoughts about it. Let me highlight some of the issues you fail you adress. If we cut to the core of your statements: "Whether 25 damage is too big of a nerf or not is an argument for another blog. My primary argument is that it should be a subtraction vs. massive and not a + vs. psionic so that ghosts remain useful in other situations. " - QXC "Instead of 25 +25 to Psionic make ghosts do 50 base damage with some reduced amount vs. massive. You still get the reduced damage vs. Ultralisks and Broodlords and Ghosts can still 2 shot snipe infestors to help compensate a bit for the reduced damage. A reduction vs. massive wouldn't negatively affect every other situation where snipe could be useful." - QXC What you are proposing doesn't "solve" the problem. I agree that an X damage with a subtraction element is a reasonable idea, but you are using it wrong. What you are proposing is actually a buff instead of a nerf. Instead of doing 45 damage ghosts will now do 50 damage (with your proposition) and only have a reduced damage to a few creatures. You see, the reason that the ghosts got nerfed was because they were too powerful and too-all round. Not only because of their effect on ultras and broodlords. Their effect and ability to decimate such tier 3 zerg armies. Basically you have a unit that is fast, does bonus damage to light, can cloak, can fire missiles and can deplete shields as well as energy. You are complaining over a nerf and want to twist it around to a buff with a diminishing effect to a total of three units? That makes no sense at all. Having ghosts do 25 damage is wrong simply because it feels weird to have to two-shot a zergling or baneling. But other than those two units, it is fine. You want to snipe marines? Sure - that can still be done with two snipes now. That is only a cost of 50 energy. That is nothing in the grand scheme of things where you get to kill marines for free. If you look on the nerf as a whole, the only thing it does is make it so that the ghost is not the counter to everything. Instead it has a smaller window of uses. For taking out infestors and high templars. Seeing these all ghost armies cloaking around and sniping out entire armies was silly. Complaining about this nerf might be valid. But it is not like the terran race is dependant on ghosts for anything else than taking out caster types. The rest of our army compositions are very versitile and this will force us terrans to actually play a bit more tactical. On a side note it is a bit condancending to throw out a comment like only pro players who do this for a living have a clue. You are mortal humans and you don't always have 20-20 vision on things. Good luck in your future tournaments. | ||
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give.ViviD
Sweden235 Posts
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SweKenZo
Sweden82 Posts
Ghost are broken because of their abilities to deal with all zergs Tier 3 units (including infestors) - not the ability to snipe a marine in one shot. Therefore, qxc's post makes perfect sense: keep the original snipe, but reduced damage taken by Massive units (T should emp the archons anyways ^c^,) Diamond Zerg here | ||
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ClanRH.TV
United States462 Posts
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ClanRH.TV
United States462 Posts
On February 17 2012 18:21 SweKenZo wrote: IncomT, Ghost are broken because of their abilities to deal with all zergs Tier 3 units (including infestors) - not the ability to snipe a marine in one shot. Therefore, qxc's post makes perfect sense: keep the original snipe, but reduced damage taken by Massive units (T should emp the archons anyways ^c^,) Diamond Zerg here It's not just Tier 3...for the most part it is, but they're so strong in many different situations. | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On February 17 2012 20:54 ClanRH.TV wrote: It's not just Tier 3...for the most part it is, but they're so strong in many different situations. Well? Come on. List these different situations if you're gonna make this claim. I'm pretty sure in the current metagame, snipe is really only used to such great effect and in mass numbers in TvZ endgame against Ultras and Broodlords. | ||
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shizna
United Kingdom803 Posts
On February 17 2012 20:54 ClanRH.TV wrote: It's not just Tier 3...for the most part it is, but they're so strong in many different situations. i struggle to see how a ghost is better than an infestor or a HT. they're all super powerful, cost effective and versatile. yes they've all been heavily nerfed and tweaked since release, but this is taking it too far. removal of kaldirim amulet was nothing compared to this... storm is godlike, imagine old storm in the current metagame... lmao. if snipe nerf goes ahead, ghosts become mediocre at dealing with EVERYTHING except casters... becoming a dumb 'anti-caster' unit. except for nuking, which is a different mechanic altogether and might as well be completely unrelated to ghosts (it's not like your nuking is better with 20 ghosts than it was with 2-3 ghosts). i would like to see snipe receive a cooldown (so you can't exploit it by having fancy mouse drivers) but have the same damage, or i would like to see cooldown REMOVED from transfuse so queens could effectively counter snipe. because imo the only thing stopping queens from being a hardcounter to snipe is the fact that transfuse has a 0.5-1 second animation which acts as a cooldown which is much longer than the snipe animation (which can be overwritten by spamming anyway). | ||
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Felnarion
442 Posts
On February 17 2012 22:12 Chaggi wrote: Well? Come on. List these different situations if you're gonna make this claim. I'm pretty sure in the current metagame, snipe is really only used to such great effect and in mass numbers in TvZ endgame against Ultras and Broodlords. Nukes: Forcing a stationary army to move. Random nuking of expansions denies mining and/or the entire expansion. Destroying clustered bases/production facilities with low-cost. (100/100 * 3 or 4) Nukes aren't just damaging directly, however. When you drop one, a warning is given, but it could be literally anywhere on the map. Anything a player is currently doing/microing must be dropped and the little red dot must be found and then the ghost has to be dealt with or, or units and buildings protected. It has almost no cost to a Terran. A ghost is 200/100. The nuke is 100/100 and the APM is about 2. For the player deal with the nuke, he must quickly search every space he occupies on the map to find the dot, and then secure the location however he can in a very short period of time. EMP: Probably most damaging skill in game after the nuke vs Protoss, removes large amounts of shield from every Protoss unit. Hard counters every caster, can prevent injects from Queens, can prevent an orbital from doing anything. Reveals cloaked units in a pinch. Snipe: Currently, hard counters Zerg T3. Can be used to kill Larva. Zerg's only mobile detection, Overseers, and Queens can be easily killed by a single cloaked ghost, leaving it with enough energy to position itself and drop a nuke (From full) Can do all of these things while cloaked. Versus Protoss, ghosts can reveal observers and then kill them in 3 regular shots. Against Zerg, a single ghost with full energy can kill two overseers in just a few seconds. Not only can ghosts cloak, but they have the skills to fucking hard counter the only mobile detection the other races have. That's freaking crazy. It's fucking broken man, it doesn't need to be this versatile. If we need to buff something to help Terran with late game Zerg, fine, but a unit shouldn't be able to do all of this, this is absurd. There's no reason they can't be more broken honestly. When a zerg max army is out, drop a ghost at each hatchery and snipe the larva. Each full energy ghost can kill 10 larva. 4 ghosts can kill 40 larva. How can a zerg remax with that? | ||
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DaemonX
545 Posts
I notice that every single dissenting voice in this thread has utterly failed at reading comprehension, trying to make this a debate about the TvZ T3 when it has absolutely nothing to do with it. Incidentally, the engine provides several ways to implement the change as QXC suggests: 1) "50 damage, 35 to massive" 2) "50 damage, -15 to massive" (just put a minus sign on the bonus in the attribute) 3) "35 damage, +15 to normal (non-massive)" | ||
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Emix_Squall
France705 Posts
There's no reason they can't be more broken honestly. When a zerg max army is out, drop a ghost at each hatchery and snipe the larva. Each full energy ghost can kill 10 larva. 4 ghosts can kill 40 larva. How can a zerg remax with that? 2 spines and one spore my good lord .... all it takes. Now I totally agree with the general message of this post. This nerf of ghosts won't only be a way to counter Zerg T3, it just makes ghosts useless in so many situations that you just won't see anymore ghosts unless mass infestors or HT are on the field. So great! All other races bring casters to the fight in order to fight opponent's armies, Terran will now bring their casters only to fight ennemy casters, and be useless the rest of the time .... | ||
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theBlues
El Salvador638 Posts
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Felnarion
442 Posts
On February 17 2012 23:16 Emix_Squall wrote: 2 spines and one spore my good lord .... all it takes. Now I totally agree with the general message of this post. This nerf of ghosts won't only be a way to counter Zerg T3, it just makes ghosts useless in so many situations that you just won't see anymore ghosts unless mass infestors or HT are on the field. So great! All other races bring casters to the fight in order to fight opponent's armies, Terran will now bring their casters only to fight ennemy casters, and be useless the rest of the time .... If he has two spines and a spore, so what? Back up and drop a nuke on it? | ||
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Emix_Squall
France705 Posts
On February 17 2012 23:19 Felnarion wrote: If he has two spines and a spore, so what? Back up and drop a nuke on it? That's not the point ... we can go on with this little game for very long than ... Huhhhh .... more spines more spores so nuke doesn't reach the hatch ??? | ||
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Felnarion
442 Posts
On February 17 2012 23:23 Emix_Squall wrote: That's not the point ... we can go on with this little game for very long than ... Huhhhh .... more spines more spores so nuke doesn't reach the hatch ??? Then you're asking a zerg to spend upward of 1000 minerals to stop something that costs 300/200. EDIT: It's not that nuke in itself is necessarily overpowered, it's the the ghost has all the tools it needs (or even two ghosts) two be dropped off in a base, thwart detection, and demolish the zerg's base. It has multiple options even in this very specific role. Two ghosts can do a lot of damage to a mineral line by just shooting, by sniping drones, by backing away and dropping a nuke outside a spore's detection range, by sniping a queen, EMPing a queen, sniping larva, thwarting detection attempts, etc. | ||
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Emix_Squall
France705 Posts
6 Spines and 2 Spores to prevent it .... = 800 minerals .... do the math I give you cloak for free ^^ Edit: and this doesn't even include the fact that you might at some point consider sending a few units to stop a nuclear attack you were warned about | ||
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RageFist
Canada1 Post
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cari-kira
Germany655 Posts
how many counters do you need for broodlords? you already have range 9 vikings! yes, they can get fungaled, but you have ghosts to deny that with snipes and EMP. compare that to the PvZ lategame scenario. how many counters have Protoss for broodlords? "ghosts may be put into the ground before they've even learned to crawl"??? oh c'mon... -.- i personally think, snipe should have been made 50 energy with 45 dmg per hit and personal cloaking is still op. | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On February 17 2012 22:59 Felnarion wrote: Nukes: Forcing a stationary army to move. Random nuking of expansions denies mining and/or the entire expansion. Destroying clustered bases/production facilities with low-cost. (100/100 * 3 or 4) Nukes aren't just damaging directly, however. When you drop one, a warning is given, but it could be literally anywhere on the map. Anything a player is currently doing/microing must be dropped and the little red dot must be found and then the ghost has to be dealt with or, or units and buildings protected. It has almost no cost to a Terran. A ghost is 200/100. The nuke is 100/100 and the APM is about 2. For the player deal with the nuke, he must quickly search every space he occupies on the map to find the dot, and then secure the location however he can in a very short period of time. EMP: Probably most damaging skill in game after the nuke vs Protoss, removes large amounts of shield from every Protoss unit. Hard counters every caster, can prevent injects from Queens, can prevent an orbital from doing anything. Reveals cloaked units in a pinch. Snipe: Currently, hard counters Zerg T3. Can be used to kill Larva. Zerg's only mobile detection, Overseers, and Queens can be easily killed by a single cloaked ghost, leaving it with enough energy to position itself and drop a nuke (From full) Can do all of these things while cloaked. Versus Protoss, ghosts can reveal observers and then kill them in 3 regular shots. Against Zerg, a single ghost with full energy can kill two overseers in just a few seconds. Not only can ghosts cloak, but they have the skills to fucking hard counter the only mobile detection the other races have. That's freaking crazy. It's fucking broken man, it doesn't need to be this versatile. If we need to buff something to help Terran with late game Zerg, fine, but a unit shouldn't be able to do all of this, this is absurd. There's no reason they can't be more broken honestly. When a zerg max army is out, drop a ghost at each hatchery and snipe the larva. Each full energy ghost can kill 10 larva. 4 ghosts can kill 40 larva. How can a zerg remax with that? Sure, I'll bite. Might as well since you're gonna do the same thing and I got some time to burn. Templars: Storm: Hey look, I can make anything that's clumped up melt. Bio?! LOL! Workers!? LOL! Feedback: Shuts down Terran drops with a cannon at each base, kills casters in basically 1 hit if they have enough energy. Turn into Archons: Yup, once these great spellcasters are out of energy, 2 of them turn into a giant ball of fun that goes to wreck a Terran army if you don't have enough ghosts to EMP or you vastly outnumber the Protoss (and they have no zealots to back it up) Infestors: Fungal Growth: Hey look, it's like Storm except you can't even micro out of it. Kills most workers in 2 shots, you sneak some infestors into a base, fungal twice, and you literally can't even react before you lose them. Infested Terrans: Once again, sneak some into the base, or an expo, dump all the energy into infested terrans, kill bases without even moving your army. Can I move in and go kill them? Nope they do too much DPS and I probably won't get there fast enough cause 25 energy per egg, 200 energy total, 1-2 infestors = 16 infestors. hohoho this is like 2 medivacs worth of drops. Neural Parasite: yeah so like I can control units in the game, like make an worker build me a base or something. I don't know, I haven't seen it used in awhile and I can't even parody something for this. Look at that, I can make pretty much every other caster seem OP as well. It literally boggles my mind when people complain about stuff that you can do so simple counters to and you're just like, WELL HE'LL JUST DROP A NUKE FURTHER BACK OR SOMETHING. Also " It has almost no cost to a Terran. A ghost is 200/100. The nuke is 100/100" a 300/100 investment, is not nothing. Even to Terrans who people think don't really need resources. The point is this, the ghost as a unit is a very specific unit. It's used to counter other spellcasters, nukes, and to snipe T3 Zerg units. The only thing that was even overpowered was the fact that snipe countered every zerg T3. The problem is that with the snipe nerf, they are nerfing not just the fact that we counter zerg T3, but the fact that snipe becomes too weak, and will be hard to innovate/fit into builds for stuff LIKE what qxc listed. | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On February 18 2012 00:44 cari-kira wrote: a ghost is not meant to be a "generally versatile unit vs. bio". of course as a terran you would love to have such a unit, but why should you, when no other race has an equivalent? how many counters do you need for broodlords? you already have range 9 vikings! yes, they can get fungaled, but you have ghosts to deny that with snipes and EMP. compare that to the PvZ lategame scenario. how many counters have Protoss for broodlords? "ghosts may be put into the ground before they've even learned to crawl"??? oh c'mon... -.- i personally think, snipe should have been made 50 energy with 45 dmg per hit and personal cloaking is still op. why should any race be the same, in fact let's all stop playing starcraft and go back to Warcraft I. Pretty sure every race is the same there. The ghost was a necessity because of the fact that it's pretty hard to tech switch as a Terran. Despite the fact that everyone seems to think that scans are something that is free (which until very very late game, it is), we still have to figure out if they are going Ultras or Broodlords, Templar or Collossi. Each of these things that we see, require a huge tech switch from our part. We can't make 12 units at once, we can't just warp stuff in. This is why we need a versatile unit. Was the ghost too versatile? Probably yeah, that's why they nerfed it. But the nerf goes in the wrong direction. | ||
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