On February 18 2012 02:31 Chrono000 wrote: The nerf is good. I think the patch gives Terran less versatile units to pick from. Difficult, but better choices in units will arise.
Strongly disagree. Instead of crippling one race which felt complete, Blizzard should focus on making the others better/more complete.
Ghost are broken because of their abilities to deal with all zergs Tier 3 units (including infestors) - not the ability to snipe a marine in one shot.
Therefore, qxc's post makes perfect sense: keep the original snipe, but reduced damage taken by Massive units (T should emp the archons anyways ^c^,)
Diamond Zerg here
It's not just Tier 3...for the most part it is, but they're so strong in many different situations.
Well? Come on. List these different situations if you're gonna make this claim. I'm pretty sure in the current metagame, snipe is really only used to such great effect and in mass numbers in TvZ endgame against Ultras and Broodlords.
Nukes: Forcing a stationary army to move. Random nuking of expansions denies mining and/or the entire expansion. Destroying clustered bases/production facilities with low-cost. (100/100 * 3 or 4) Nukes aren't just damaging directly, however. When you drop one, a warning is given, but it could be literally anywhere on the map. Anything a player is currently doing/microing must be dropped and the little red dot must be found and then the ghost has to be dealt with or, or units and buildings protected. It has almost no cost to a Terran. A ghost is 200/100. The nuke is 100/100 and the APM is about 2. For the player deal with the nuke, he must quickly search every space he occupies on the map to find the dot, and then secure the location however he can in a very short period of time.
EMP: Probably most damaging skill in game after the nuke vs Protoss, removes large amounts of shield from every Protoss unit. Hard counters every caster, can prevent injects from Queens, can prevent an orbital from doing anything. Reveals cloaked units in a pinch.
Snipe: Currently, hard counters Zerg T3. Can be used to kill Larva. Zerg's only mobile detection, Overseers, and Queens can be easily killed by a single cloaked ghost, leaving it with enough energy to position itself and drop a nuke (From full)
Can do all of these things while cloaked. Versus Protoss, ghosts can reveal observers and then kill them in 3 regular shots. Against Zerg, a single ghost with full energy can kill two overseers in just a few seconds. Not only can ghosts cloak, but they have the skills to fucking hard counter the only mobile detection the other races have. That's freaking crazy.
It's fucking broken man, it doesn't need to be this versatile. If we need to buff something to help Terran with late game Zerg, fine, but a unit shouldn't be able to do all of this, this is absurd.
There's no reason they can't be more broken honestly. When a zerg max army is out, drop a ghost at each hatchery and snipe the larva. Each full energy ghost can kill 10 larva. 4 ghosts can kill 40 larva. How can a zerg remax with that?
Sure, I'll bite. Might as well since you're gonna do the same thing and I got some time to burn.
Templars:
Storm: Hey look, I can make anything that's clumped up melt. Bio?! LOL! Workers!? LOL!
Feedback: Shuts down Terran drops with a cannon at each base, kills casters in basically 1 hit if they have enough energy.
Turn into Archons: Yup, once these great spellcasters are out of energy, 2 of them turn into a giant ball of fun that goes to wreck a Terran army if you don't have enough ghosts to EMP or you vastly outnumber the Protoss (and they have no zealots to back it up)
Infestors:
Fungal Growth: Hey look, it's like Storm except you can't even micro out of it. Kills most workers in 2 shots, you sneak some infestors into a base, fungal twice, and you literally can't even react before you lose them.
Infested Terrans: Once again, sneak some into the base, or an expo, dump all the energy into infested terrans, kill bases without even moving your army. Can I move in and go kill them? Nope they do too much DPS and I probably won't get there fast enough cause 25 energy per egg, 200 energy total, 1-2 infestors = 16 infestors. hohoho this is like 2 medivacs worth of drops.
Neural Parasite: yeah so like I can control units in the game, like make an worker build me a base or something. I don't know, I haven't seen it used in awhile and I can't even parody something for this.
Look at that, I can make pretty much every other caster seem OP as well. It literally boggles my mind when people complain about stuff that you can do so simple counters to and you're just like, WELL HE'LL JUST DROP A NUKE FURTHER BACK OR SOMETHING.
Also
" It has almost no cost to a Terran. A ghost is 200/100. The nuke is 100/100"
a 300/100 investment, is not nothing. Even to Terrans who people think don't really need resources.
The point is this, the ghost as a unit is a very specific unit. It's used to counter other spellcasters, nukes, and to snipe T3 Zerg units. The only thing that was even overpowered was the fact that snipe countered every zerg T3. The problem is that with the snipe nerf, they are nerfing not just the fact that we counter zerg T3, but the fact that snipe becomes too weak, and will be hard to innovate/fit into builds for stuff LIKE what qxc listed.
I had a whole thing typed out but decided its not worth it. I made my points well enough in the other post. The uses you listed for the other units don't in any way match up to the number and type of uses I gave to the ghost. On top of that, as I pointed out, not only can ghosts do them ALL while cloaked, but they also have the means to counter the means of mobile detection of the other races. Infestors don't have that, high templar don't have that. And to top it all off? Post-patch, the ghost will be able to demolish either of the other casters, while staying completely cloaked.
If you can't deal with broodlord/infestor when infestors die in two snipes, you have a problem. Even if a zerg makes 16 infestors for a push, that's 32 snipes at 25 energy a piece. Means four full-energy ghosts can completely nullify them. Make 8 or so to be safe, that way you have energy to cloak and avoid detection. If you for some reason you can't manage that, shower them with EMPs. If you can't manage that, split up your ghosts and nuke their deathball. If you can't manage that, put one in a medivac with 6 marines and drop/nuke all their bases. If you can't manage that, use their reduced snipe to damage the brood lords and infestors, and viking/marine/tank to clean up the rest. And if you can't manage that, come whine on the forum about your useless unit.
Ghost are broken because of their abilities to deal with all zergs Tier 3 units (including infestors) - not the ability to snipe a marine in one shot.
Therefore, qxc's post makes perfect sense: keep the original snipe, but reduced damage taken by Massive units (T should emp the archons anyways ^c^,)
Diamond Zerg here
It's not just Tier 3...for the most part it is, but they're so strong in many different situations.
Well? Come on. List these different situations if you're gonna make this claim. I'm pretty sure in the current metagame, snipe is really only used to such great effect and in mass numbers in TvZ endgame against Ultras and Broodlords.
Nukes: Forcing a stationary army to move. Random nuking of expansions denies mining and/or the entire expansion. Destroying clustered bases/production facilities with low-cost. (100/100 * 3 or 4) Nukes aren't just damaging directly, however. When you drop one, a warning is given, but it could be literally anywhere on the map. Anything a player is currently doing/microing must be dropped and the little red dot must be found and then the ghost has to be dealt with or, or units and buildings protected. It has almost no cost to a Terran. A ghost is 200/100. The nuke is 100/100 and the APM is about 2. For the player deal with the nuke, he must quickly search every space he occupies on the map to find the dot, and then secure the location however he can in a very short period of time.
EMP: Probably most damaging skill in game after the nuke vs Protoss, removes large amounts of shield from every Protoss unit. Hard counters every caster, can prevent injects from Queens, can prevent an orbital from doing anything. Reveals cloaked units in a pinch.
Snipe: Currently, hard counters Zerg T3. Can be used to kill Larva. Zerg's only mobile detection, Overseers, and Queens can be easily killed by a single cloaked ghost, leaving it with enough energy to position itself and drop a nuke (From full)
Can do all of these things while cloaked. Versus Protoss, ghosts can reveal observers and then kill them in 3 regular shots. Against Zerg, a single ghost with full energy can kill two overseers in just a few seconds. Not only can ghosts cloak, but they have the skills to fucking hard counter the only mobile detection the other races have. That's freaking crazy.
It's fucking broken man, it doesn't need to be this versatile. If we need to buff something to help Terran with late game Zerg, fine, but a unit shouldn't be able to do all of this, this is absurd.
There's no reason they can't be more broken honestly. When a zerg max army is out, drop a ghost at each hatchery and snipe the larva. Each full energy ghost can kill 10 larva. 4 ghosts can kill 40 larva. How can a zerg remax with that?
Sure, I'll bite. Might as well since you're gonna do the same thing and I got some time to burn.
Templars:
Storm: Hey look, I can make anything that's clumped up melt. Bio?! LOL! Workers!? LOL!
Feedback: Shuts down Terran drops with a cannon at each base, kills casters in basically 1 hit if they have enough energy.
Turn into Archons: Yup, once these great spellcasters are out of energy, 2 of them turn into a giant ball of fun that goes to wreck a Terran army if you don't have enough ghosts to EMP or you vastly outnumber the Protoss (and they have no zealots to back it up)
Infestors:
Fungal Growth: Hey look, it's like Storm except you can't even micro out of it. Kills most workers in 2 shots, you sneak some infestors into a base, fungal twice, and you literally can't even react before you lose them.
Infested Terrans: Once again, sneak some into the base, or an expo, dump all the energy into infested terrans, kill bases without even moving your army. Can I move in and go kill them? Nope they do too much DPS and I probably won't get there fast enough cause 25 energy per egg, 200 energy total, 1-2 infestors = 16 infestors. hohoho this is like 2 medivacs worth of drops.
Neural Parasite: yeah so like I can control units in the game, like make an worker build me a base or something. I don't know, I haven't seen it used in awhile and I can't even parody something for this.
Look at that, I can make pretty much every other caster seem OP as well. It literally boggles my mind when people complain about stuff that you can do so simple counters to and you're just like, WELL HE'LL JUST DROP A NUKE FURTHER BACK OR SOMETHING.
Also
" It has almost no cost to a Terran. A ghost is 200/100. The nuke is 100/100"
a 300/100 investment, is not nothing. Even to Terrans who people think don't really need resources.
The point is this, the ghost as a unit is a very specific unit. It's used to counter other spellcasters, nukes, and to snipe T3 Zerg units. The only thing that was even overpowered was the fact that snipe countered every zerg T3. The problem is that with the snipe nerf, they are nerfing not just the fact that we counter zerg T3, but the fact that snipe becomes too weak, and will be hard to innovate/fit into builds for stuff LIKE what qxc listed.
I had a whole thing typed out but decided its not worth it. I made my points well enough in the other post. The uses you listed for the other units don't in any way match up to the number and type of uses I gave to the ghost. On top of that, as I pointed out, not only can ghosts do them ALL while cloaked, but they also have the means to counter the means of mobile detection of the other races. Infestors don't have that, high templar don't have that. And to top it all off? Post-patch, the ghost will be able to demolish either of the other casters, while staying completely cloaked.
If you can't deal with broodlord/infestor when infestors die in two snipes, you have a problem. Even if a zerg makes 16 infestors for a push, that's 32 snipes at 25 energy a piece. Means four full-energy ghosts can completely nullify them. Make 8 or so to be safe, that way you have energy to cloak and avoid detection. If you for some reason you can't manage that, shower them with EMPs. If you can't manage that, split up your ghosts and nuke their deathball. If you can't manage that, put one in a medivac with 6 marines and drop/nuke all their bases. If you can't manage that, use their reduced snipe to damage the brood lords and infestors, and viking/marine/tank to clean up the rest. And if you can't manage that, come whine on the forum about your useless unit.
You have horrible reading comprehension. No one said the nerf was unnecessary. It was necessary. It's just how it's done is bad because it limits what Terrans can do otherwise, which has nothing to do with Broodlords or Ultras or whatever the deathball is. All I want is to not have my options limited in other matchups and in other situations just cause the ghost got abused in one matchup, in a late game situation. If you read anything in the original post, you'd actually understand that.
Reading. It helps.
Edit: Also, infestors can't do that? They can literally sit there, in a base, for an infinite amount of time while burrowed, and being able to use infested Terrans. Oh no, they aren't exactly like the ghost cause they cant' do everything while borrowed! That's OP!
"Instead of 25 +25 to Psionic make ghosts do 50 base damage with some reduced amount vs. massive. You still get the reduced damage vs. Ultralisks and Broodlords and Ghosts can still 2 shot snipe infestors to help compensate a bit for the reduced damage. A reduction vs. massive wouldn't negatively affect every other situation where snipe could be useful.
Whether 25 damage is too big of a nerf or not is an argument for another blog. My primary argument is that it should be a subtraction vs. massive and not a + vs. psionic so that ghosts remain useful in other situations."
Here's a nice summary - quoted exactly from qxc's post. Why don't you read that before you start raging about how Terrans should get this nerf cause ghosts are so op or whatever
Ghost are broken because of their abilities to deal with all zergs Tier 3 units (including infestors) - not the ability to snipe a marine in one shot.
Therefore, qxc's post makes perfect sense: keep the original snipe, but reduced damage taken by Massive units (T should emp the archons anyways ^c^,)
Diamond Zerg here
It's not just Tier 3...for the most part it is, but they're so strong in many different situations.
Well? Come on. List these different situations if you're gonna make this claim. I'm pretty sure in the current metagame, snipe is really only used to such great effect and in mass numbers in TvZ endgame against Ultras and Broodlords.
Nukes: Forcing a stationary army to move. Random nuking of expansions denies mining and/or the entire expansion. Destroying clustered bases/production facilities with low-cost. (100/100 * 3 or 4) Nukes aren't just damaging directly, however. When you drop one, a warning is given, but it could be literally anywhere on the map. Anything a player is currently doing/microing must be dropped and the little red dot must be found and then the ghost has to be dealt with or, or units and buildings protected. It has almost no cost to a Terran. A ghost is 200/100. The nuke is 100/100 and the APM is about 2. For the player deal with the nuke, he must quickly search every space he occupies on the map to find the dot, and then secure the location however he can in a very short period of time.
EMP: Probably most damaging skill in game after the nuke vs Protoss, removes large amounts of shield from every Protoss unit. Hard counters every caster, can prevent injects from Queens, can prevent an orbital from doing anything. Reveals cloaked units in a pinch.
Snipe: Currently, hard counters Zerg T3. Can be used to kill Larva. Zerg's only mobile detection, Overseers, and Queens can be easily killed by a single cloaked ghost, leaving it with enough energy to position itself and drop a nuke (From full)
Can do all of these things while cloaked. Versus Protoss, ghosts can reveal observers and then kill them in 3 regular shots. Against Zerg, a single ghost with full energy can kill two overseers in just a few seconds. Not only can ghosts cloak, but they have the skills to fucking hard counter the only mobile detection the other races have. That's freaking crazy.
It's fucking broken man, it doesn't need to be this versatile. If we need to buff something to help Terran with late game Zerg, fine, but a unit shouldn't be able to do all of this, this is absurd.
There's no reason they can't be more broken honestly. When a zerg max army is out, drop a ghost at each hatchery and snipe the larva. Each full energy ghost can kill 10 larva. 4 ghosts can kill 40 larva. How can a zerg remax with that?
Sure, I'll bite. Might as well since you're gonna do the same thing and I got some time to burn.
Templars:
Storm: Hey look, I can make anything that's clumped up melt. Bio?! LOL! Workers!? LOL!
Feedback: Shuts down Terran drops with a cannon at each base, kills casters in basically 1 hit if they have enough energy.
Turn into Archons: Yup, once these great spellcasters are out of energy, 2 of them turn into a giant ball of fun that goes to wreck a Terran army if you don't have enough ghosts to EMP or you vastly outnumber the Protoss (and they have no zealots to back it up)
Infestors:
Fungal Growth: Hey look, it's like Storm except you can't even micro out of it. Kills most workers in 2 shots, you sneak some infestors into a base, fungal twice, and you literally can't even react before you lose them.
Infested Terrans: Once again, sneak some into the base, or an expo, dump all the energy into infested terrans, kill bases without even moving your army. Can I move in and go kill them? Nope they do too much DPS and I probably won't get there fast enough cause 25 energy per egg, 200 energy total, 1-2 infestors = 16 infestors. hohoho this is like 2 medivacs worth of drops.
Neural Parasite: yeah so like I can control units in the game, like make an worker build me a base or something. I don't know, I haven't seen it used in awhile and I can't even parody something for this.
Look at that, I can make pretty much every other caster seem OP as well. It literally boggles my mind when people complain about stuff that you can do so simple counters to and you're just like, WELL HE'LL JUST DROP A NUKE FURTHER BACK OR SOMETHING.
Also
" It has almost no cost to a Terran. A ghost is 200/100. The nuke is 100/100"
a 300/100 investment, is not nothing. Even to Terrans who people think don't really need resources.
The point is this, the ghost as a unit is a very specific unit. It's used to counter other spellcasters, nukes, and to snipe T3 Zerg units. The only thing that was even overpowered was the fact that snipe countered every zerg T3. The problem is that with the snipe nerf, they are nerfing not just the fact that we counter zerg T3, but the fact that snipe becomes too weak, and will be hard to innovate/fit into builds for stuff LIKE what qxc listed.
I had a whole thing typed out but decided its not worth it. I made my points well enough in the other post. The uses you listed for the other units don't in any way match up to the number and type of uses I gave to the ghost. On top of that, as I pointed out, not only can ghosts do them ALL while cloaked, but they also have the means to counter the means of mobile detection of the other races. Infestors don't have that, high templar don't have that. And to top it all off? Post-patch, the ghost will be able to demolish either of the other casters, while staying completely cloaked.
If you can't deal with broodlord/infestor when infestors die in two snipes, you have a problem. Even if a zerg makes 16 infestors for a push, that's 32 snipes at 25 energy a piece. Means four full-energy ghosts can completely nullify them. Make 8 or so to be safe, that way you have energy to cloak and avoid detection. If you for some reason you can't manage that, shower them with EMPs. If you can't manage that, split up your ghosts and nuke their deathball. If you can't manage that, put one in a medivac with 6 marines and drop/nuke all their bases. If you can't manage that, use their reduced snipe to damage the brood lords and infestors, and viking/marine/tank to clean up the rest. And if you can't manage that, come whine on the forum about your useless unit.
You have horrible reading comprehension. No one said the nerf was unnecessary. It was necessary. It's just how it's done is bad because it limits what Terrans can do otherwise, which has nothing to do with Broodlords or Ultras or whatever the deathball is. All I want is to not have my options limited in other matchups and in other situations just cause the ghost got abused in one matchup, in a late game situation. If you read anything in the original post, you'd actually understand that.
Reading. It helps.
Edit: Also, infestors can't do that? They can literally sit there, in a base, for an infinite amount of time while burrowed, and being able to use infested Terrans. Oh no, they aren't exactly like the ghost cause they cant' do everything while borrowed! That's OP!
Seriously dense
Of course it limits what the ghost can do otherwise,in other matchups, in other situations, it's very very obvious Blizzard wants the ghost to fulfill a primary anti-caster role. It's not just a nerf, its Blizzard finding where they want the unit and putting in there.
Ghost are broken because of their abilities to deal with all zergs Tier 3 units (including infestors) - not the ability to snipe a marine in one shot.
Therefore, qxc's post makes perfect sense: keep the original snipe, but reduced damage taken by Massive units (T should emp the archons anyways ^c^,)
Diamond Zerg here
It's not just Tier 3...for the most part it is, but they're so strong in many different situations.
Well? Come on. List these different situations if you're gonna make this claim. I'm pretty sure in the current metagame, snipe is really only used to such great effect and in mass numbers in TvZ endgame against Ultras and Broodlords.
Nukes: Forcing a stationary army to move. Random nuking of expansions denies mining and/or the entire expansion. Destroying clustered bases/production facilities with low-cost. (100/100 * 3 or 4) Nukes aren't just damaging directly, however. When you drop one, a warning is given, but it could be literally anywhere on the map. Anything a player is currently doing/microing must be dropped and the little red dot must be found and then the ghost has to be dealt with or, or units and buildings protected. It has almost no cost to a Terran. A ghost is 200/100. The nuke is 100/100 and the APM is about 2. For the player deal with the nuke, he must quickly search every space he occupies on the map to find the dot, and then secure the location however he can in a very short period of time.
EMP: Probably most damaging skill in game after the nuke vs Protoss, removes large amounts of shield from every Protoss unit. Hard counters every caster, can prevent injects from Queens, can prevent an orbital from doing anything. Reveals cloaked units in a pinch.
Snipe: Currently, hard counters Zerg T3. Can be used to kill Larva. Zerg's only mobile detection, Overseers, and Queens can be easily killed by a single cloaked ghost, leaving it with enough energy to position itself and drop a nuke (From full)
Can do all of these things while cloaked. Versus Protoss, ghosts can reveal observers and then kill them in 3 regular shots. Against Zerg, a single ghost with full energy can kill two overseers in just a few seconds. Not only can ghosts cloak, but they have the skills to fucking hard counter the only mobile detection the other races have. That's freaking crazy.
It's fucking broken man, it doesn't need to be this versatile. If we need to buff something to help Terran with late game Zerg, fine, but a unit shouldn't be able to do all of this, this is absurd.
There's no reason they can't be more broken honestly. When a zerg max army is out, drop a ghost at each hatchery and snipe the larva. Each full energy ghost can kill 10 larva. 4 ghosts can kill 40 larva. How can a zerg remax with that?
Sure, I'll bite. Might as well since you're gonna do the same thing and I got some time to burn.
Templars:
Storm: Hey look, I can make anything that's clumped up melt. Bio?! LOL! Workers!? LOL!
Feedback: Shuts down Terran drops with a cannon at each base, kills casters in basically 1 hit if they have enough energy.
Turn into Archons: Yup, once these great spellcasters are out of energy, 2 of them turn into a giant ball of fun that goes to wreck a Terran army if you don't have enough ghosts to EMP or you vastly outnumber the Protoss (and they have no zealots to back it up)
Infestors:
Fungal Growth: Hey look, it's like Storm except you can't even micro out of it. Kills most workers in 2 shots, you sneak some infestors into a base, fungal twice, and you literally can't even react before you lose them.
Infested Terrans: Once again, sneak some into the base, or an expo, dump all the energy into infested terrans, kill bases without even moving your army. Can I move in and go kill them? Nope they do too much DPS and I probably won't get there fast enough cause 25 energy per egg, 200 energy total, 1-2 infestors = 16 infestors. hohoho this is like 2 medivacs worth of drops.
Neural Parasite: yeah so like I can control units in the game, like make an worker build me a base or something. I don't know, I haven't seen it used in awhile and I can't even parody something for this.
Look at that, I can make pretty much every other caster seem OP as well. It literally boggles my mind when people complain about stuff that you can do so simple counters to and you're just like, WELL HE'LL JUST DROP A NUKE FURTHER BACK OR SOMETHING.
Also
" It has almost no cost to a Terran. A ghost is 200/100. The nuke is 100/100"
a 300/100 investment, is not nothing. Even to Terrans who people think don't really need resources.
The point is this, the ghost as a unit is a very specific unit. It's used to counter other spellcasters, nukes, and to snipe T3 Zerg units. The only thing that was even overpowered was the fact that snipe countered every zerg T3. The problem is that with the snipe nerf, they are nerfing not just the fact that we counter zerg T3, but the fact that snipe becomes too weak, and will be hard to innovate/fit into builds for stuff LIKE what qxc listed.
I had a whole thing typed out but decided its not worth it. I made my points well enough in the other post. The uses you listed for the other units don't in any way match up to the number and type of uses I gave to the ghost. On top of that, as I pointed out, not only can ghosts do them ALL while cloaked, but they also have the means to counter the means of mobile detection of the other races. Infestors don't have that, high templar don't have that. And to top it all off? Post-patch, the ghost will be able to demolish either of the other casters, while staying completely cloaked.
If you can't deal with broodlord/infestor when infestors die in two snipes, you have a problem. Even if a zerg makes 16 infestors for a push, that's 32 snipes at 25 energy a piece. Means four full-energy ghosts can completely nullify them. Make 8 or so to be safe, that way you have energy to cloak and avoid detection. If you for some reason you can't manage that, shower them with EMPs. If you can't manage that, split up your ghosts and nuke their deathball. If you can't manage that, put one in a medivac with 6 marines and drop/nuke all their bases. If you can't manage that, use their reduced snipe to damage the brood lords and infestors, and viking/marine/tank to clean up the rest. And if you can't manage that, come whine on the forum about your useless unit.
You have horrible reading comprehension. No one said the nerf was unnecessary. It was necessary. It's just how it's done is bad because it limits what Terrans can do otherwise, which has nothing to do with Broodlords or Ultras or whatever the deathball is. All I want is to not have my options limited in other matchups and in other situations just cause the ghost got abused in one matchup, in a late game situation. If you read anything in the original post, you'd actually understand that.
Reading. It helps.
Edit: Also, infestors can't do that? They can literally sit there, in a base, for an infinite amount of time while burrowed, and being able to use infested Terrans. Oh no, they aren't exactly like the ghost cause they cant' do everything while borrowed! That's OP!
Seriously dense
Of course it limits what the ghost can do otherwise,in other matchups, in other situations, it's very very obvious Blizzard wants the ghost to fulfill a primary anti-caster role. It's not just a nerf, its Blizzard finding where they want the unit and putting in there.
Hence why the topic, cause really no terran feels that the change should warrant this large of a nerf because it'll kill other options that we can potentially use the ghost for. Who knows, what if one day the metagame becomes a snipefest of ghosts vs zealots in TvP, but we won't ever see that cause snipe is nerfed to a stupid amount.
I can't think of any reason other than as preparation for removing energy drain from emp that blizzard would make snipe only anti psionic (ie counter the class that emp is already used to combat)
Realy agree with TO... I mean it's so obvious. They want to nerf snipe vs Massive (tier3 zerg) and nerf it versus everything (mutas, marines, zealots, banelings, and workers!..)... but casters. Snipe was just "viable" vs anything ingame. It was in no way overpowered. Just vs Massive T3-zerg units it is o.p.. No one used only Ghosts to snipe armies it was very balanced. If they still do this crap with snipe they would remove alot of strategies based around that. I loved playing ghosts vs Zerg back when I was terran. It was not op but it was playable. I loved suprising my enemy in TvT with a ghost-push before his marines had combat-shield. Why would you remove these underused but playable strategies? Why give Terran less strategies? No reason to.
And I don#t realy know why there has to be opened such a big thread with so many explanations about it that are obvious when you know the game and played Terran for at least some months.. so that Blizzzard could possibly notice it. .. !?!
I play protoss and snipe is not op vs my zealots and it is not op vs my dark templar... I can just honor a terran who has the micro to use the rest of the ghosts energy to snipe some zealots... with this Patch even this minor Micro bonus would be ridiculous that you rather don't use snipe at all because every split second you waste for 25 damage per snipe will be wasted totally. Because oh wait: Ghosts do actually 20(22,24,26) damage per shot to zealots and mutas.. so lets just auto attack!
Balance? Templars do DPS to every unit. Infestors do DPS to every unit. Ghosts will only remove shields! (zealots are mostly teched only to armor! shields are pointless anyways) Ghosts will not only only remove shileds they will only damage casters. Besides of that Snipe is a SINGLE DPS skill.. totally bad in starcraft where AOE is important. So another reason why snipe nerfing is bad (we are not speaking vs massive here). Ghosts are underused already besides of some EMP'ing. Don't remove them from the strategy pool.
BTW: No moderation here? so many trolls in the thread.. this:
On February 18 2012 01:42 cari-kira wrote: Terrans crying for better units? + Show Spoiler +
On February 18 2012 00:44 cari-kira wrote: a ghost is not meant to be a "generally versatile unit vs. bio". of course as a terran you would love to have such a unit, but why should you, when no other race has an equivalent? how many counters do you need for broodlords? you already have range 9 vikings! yes, they can get fungaled, but you have ghosts to deny that with snipes and EMP.
compare that to the PvZ lategame scenario. how many counters have Protoss for broodlords?
"ghosts may be put into the ground before they've even learned to crawl"??? oh c'mon... -.-
i personally think, snipe should have been made 50 energy with 45 dmg per hit and personal cloaking is still op.
Aw c'mon, this is getting ridiculous, lets not SPAM or say something is IMBA here, when u obviously ar biased.
Personal cloaking is OP? Really? Says the PROTOSS with his DTs?
And you may not know, but when Broods are out, most of the time, Corruptors are as well and they pretty well can counter Vikings so there is no real counter left 4 T if Z has some Corruptors. And yes, you can take out corruptos with Vikings, Marines etc U can also try to Nuke, or attack with Thor. Not effective, but it will always be effective enough, that players of other races complain about it :D.
Oh and yes: you point out 1 good counter to Broodlords are enough as Terran and assume Protoss does only have one as well. Lets count, as I am not really good at these things - (I only startet playing Toss a week ago (before that T and Z) and I already can counter Broods better than with Terran...). But for me, it worked quite well ( vs Dia/Masters EU Zerg): Voids, Phoenix, Blink Stalker, some Storms (pretty easy against that slow unit :D), Mothership with cloaking (but Terran personal cloaking is OP/IMBA) and Archon Toilet... I am sure I forgot something - as I said I am only playing 4 a week now and this is what I tried out successfully yet, but maybe there is more
And for your other posts with the Videos, i hope a MOD sees it, because its nothing else then trolling...
On February 18 2012 01:42 cari-kira wrote: Terrans crying for better units?
no shame at all.
those videos aren't even comparable to a real game situation. On top of that they aren't crying for a better unit the issue is that you are basically nullifying the use of the ghost' snipe ability.
I do agree that the nerf should be handled at -vs massive as opposed to +vs psionic. Additionally on a side note even I believe the ghost nerf is too much and I'm not a terran player.
On February 17 2012 23:17 TheBlueMeaner wrote: I understand Qxc's point but Blizzard is not backing down on this one, they clearly said that the ghost is not supposed to counter every single unit in the game, thus the fix. It doesnt matter if it is "fun" to see ghosts one shot banelings, the point is terran has other options to do that task so there is no need for a unit that counters everything...
Having utility suddenly means they counter everything? They're a fucking spellcaster. High templars/infestors counter everything cause storm/fungal hurt every unit. Herp derp. Did you read what you typed before hitting the post button?
They clearly said ghosts aren't supposed to nullify T3 zerg units. There is absolutely no reason to nerf them any further than beyond that problem explicitly stated by Blizzard.
Are u serious... U dont charge mutas into a marine pack, PERIOD U dont charge zerglings with absolutely no Banelings into a marine pack And I dont think you have seen what late game Mass Zealot warp is capable of,
If your trying to make a arguement, these videos are deffs not it. Cant even believe you made such a comment as this.
So basically, the only practical use for snipe is going to be against HTs, Ghosts, and Infestors?
I guess Blizzard really want to make Zerg the most superior race going into HotS because the way I see it, we (Terrans) have no effective counter for Zerg late game, exactly the same as boat as Protoss. This damage reduction is WAAAAAAY too much and will make it 4x harder to hold wave after wave of brood/ultralisk.
pardon my vocabulary but this nerf is downright retarded. i've always stated that in late-game tvz the ghost is broken but reduce snipe's damage by 50%? seriously? like qxc said, it basically makes the ghost a walking EMP and one of the least cost-efficient units in the game (while it's always been, along with the raven, my favorite sc2 terran unit). and no, a 25 damage snipe is not good against broodlords, it's freaking terrible, wake the hell up. tvz late game is going to become unwinable for t while it was, i believe, balanced overall except on shakuras.
I am a terran. And I do not know if a nerf to the anti-tier 3 ability was warranted. This means I do not mind if it's nerfed, as I am sure Blizzard did it for a good reason, and I don't have enough experience to judge either way.
But I do know:
1) Blizz clearly stated the change was directed at TvZ Tier 3, not anything else. Indeed, we have not seen snipe used at high levels for anything else yet, so it can't be judged for balance yet. 2) Therefore, the change as stated is incorrect. It stops the ghost being useful in any situation but vs other caster, restricting this expensive, vulnerable unit to tiny niche that no other caster unit in the game is limited to comparably. QXC's implementation of the nerf is far more sensible. 3) Finally, regardless of the above, 50% is way too much. Logic: I don't know if it was warranted, but if it was 100% too powerful then I would have known pretty fast. If a change is needed, fine, but 20-35% is the range they should be trying first.
EPT
