EPTMindgames in GSL *spoiler* - Page 6
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Cryo1
Canada28 Posts
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Bleb
Croatia278 Posts
you should make theese more often : ) | ||
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Typhus
Norway122 Posts
On January 11 2012 14:24 Azzur wrote: These games were coinflips because the players chose them to be. For instance, if MC had gone 1-gate FE into 3-gate robo against supernova, he should've easily won the game. So MC does the build he did, ha automatically he loses, he does the other build he automatically wins, by your definition. Isnt that pretty much the definition of Supernova flipping a coin to see if he wins? | ||
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OgsStump
128 Posts
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Baituri
Netherlands1501 Posts
Really great analysis, as someone who doesn't get these small things, or doesn't pick them up during the game, I appreciate it  | ||
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snafoo
New Zealand1615 Posts
On January 12 2012 01:01 Typhus wrote: So MC does the build he did, ha automatically he loses, he does the other build he automatically wins, by your definition. Isnt that pretty much the definition of Supernova flipping a coin to see if he wins? No.... If MC did 3gate + robo after being fed all the information that it was a 1rax expand then he would of been playing completely differently to what he ALWAYS does. Supernova used knowledge of MC's/Protoss tendencies to fool him. Not a coinflip. I think a really great example of using knowledge of someones tendencies was Ganzi's game in Code A against Lucky on Crossfire(http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors7/vod/66573). Ganzi built a proxy depot/rax literally in the natural of the zerg and won - this would not of worked against anyone other than Lucky since he obviously watched alot of Lucky's games and found the position that he doesn't scout. In the winners interview(http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=292447) he said " After the next match was determined, then I checked all his VODs and I saw his habits that were hard to fix. His scouting pattern was always so I chose that build. Most people said that it would get scouted but I was sure that it would work.". | ||
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W2
United States1177 Posts
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bubblegumbo
Taiwan1296 Posts
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jaydee81
Germany119 Posts
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GWBuffalo
United States234 Posts
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-iNko
Lithuania160 Posts
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Calebcalebcaleb
United States22 Posts
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Azzur
Australia6255 Posts
On January 12 2012 01:01 Typhus wrote: So MC does the build he did, ha automatically he loses, he does the other build he automatically wins, by your definition. Isnt that pretty much the definition of Supernova flipping a coin to see if he wins? You misunderstood my statement - I'm claiming that the Supernova vs MC game was a coinflip only because the players chose for it to be one. Yes, Supernova coinflipped and MC in return coinflipped and lost. Instead, MC had a perfectly good non-coinflip build which is good against many things but he chose to not use it. The OP highlighted that the 3-gate robo is hard countered by no-gas 3CC but I disagreed with that assessment. In return, Supernova had a perfectly good non coinflip build as well (1-rax FE). Thus, SC2 doesn't have to be a coinflip game unless the players chose to indulge in it. | ||
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The Final Boss
United States1839 Posts
On January 11 2012 09:26 chenchen wrote: The second depot is actually very very late in a normal gasless 1 rax FE. As far as I understand, you want to plot down the second CC well before your second depot. You can but you can also put down the depot to deny the scout. But as a Protoss player you shouldn't use that second depot as a reason why the Terran is not getting gas. PuMa walls off with a second Supply Depot all the time so that Protoss players never know what he's sending at them. But still, it's a fairly good way to metagame your opponent. | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
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The Final Boss
United States1839 Posts
On January 11 2012 13:53 sickoota wrote: You can only dress up coinflipping so much, sorry. If mindgames alone can dictate 4 out of every 5 games that is not a good place for a game to be in competitively. Denying scouting and putting a bunker on the lowground isn't some revolutionary, highly intelligent play, its just praying that dumb luck will favor you based on a couple of replays you watched of your competitor and it makes for a horrid spectator experience. I disagree. I think that as a spectator, obviously seeing intense macro games is great, but watching a clever build unfold is always interesting. When you watch BitByBit play it has very little strategy and is more along the lines of All-in with a follow-up transition of another All-in. Also, as far as strategy games go, "coinflips" (at least at this level) are less along the lines of coinflips and more along the lines of well-thought out strategies. That's why Flash is one of the greatest progamers of all time, because the "risks" he takes are based off of a plethora of information outside of the game which he had gathered. Limiting your opponent's scouting and only showing them what you want them to see may seem like a "horrid spectator experience," but for the more indepth fans of both StarCraft and strategy, those subtleties make the games highly enjoyable. EDIT: Strategy is all about risks especially when you're playing in a limited information environment. Also players taking risks makes for exciting games. | ||
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
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GhostBusters
United States198 Posts
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Johnzee
United States216 Posts
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Baum
Germany1010 Posts
On January 11 2012 09:26 chenchen wrote: The second depot is actually very very late in a normal gasless 1 rax FE. As far as I understand, you want to plot down the second CC well before your second depot. A gasless 1 rax fe is not the safest build in the universe by showing your build early you give your opponent the chance to react to it optimally. I have done the cc before second depot a ton and even on my level it lead to me encountering an absurd amount of all ins because my opponents had all the information they needed. Walling off early with a second depot forces your opponent to either take a risk or to play safe which makes your 1 rax expand a lot stronger because Protoss will probably end up with a lower probe count and a slower third base. You can still do the faster cc variant on big maps where it's harder to scout but especially on pro level you have to be extremely comfortable to always do it like this in important matches. | ||
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