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Mindgames in GSL *spoiler* - Page 8

Blogs > iamke55
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GhandiEAGLE
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States20754 Posts
January 12 2012 06:45 GMT
#141
Dat logic!
Oh, my achin' hands, from rakin' in grands, and breakin' in mic stands
megapants
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States1314 Posts
January 12 2012 07:12 GMT
#142
i think mc made a poor read on supernova, actually. as it has been said before, if terran is going 1 rax no gas FE his second depot should be far more delayed. although a lot of players do delay their cc until after the depot, i think mc should not have - or possibly didn't - assume there was an expo until he saw the bunker at the ramp. but even then, i think that bunker timing was just too early 1 rax CC > 3-4 rax to be confirmed. a probe could have gone up the ramp far before his zealot+stalker and confirmed that the bunker went down super fast. if mc had scouted the bunker timing he may have been able to get a better read on the situation and played safer by getting up his detection.

in summation, both the depot and the bunker were too early for supernova to realistically be doing an efficient 1 rax CC opening, and i believe it was mc's mistake for not realizing that.
double620
Profile Joined July 2011
China804 Posts
January 12 2012 07:33 GMT
#143
On January 12 2012 16:12 megapants wrote:
i think mc made a poor read on supernova, actually. as it has been said before, if terran is going 1 rax no gas FE his second depot should be far more delayed. although a lot of players do delay their cc until after the depot, i think mc should not have - or possibly didn't - assume there was an expo until he saw the bunker at the ramp. but even then, i think that bunker timing was just too early 1 rax CC > 3-4 rax to be confirmed. a probe could have gone up the ramp far before his zealot+stalker and confirmed that the bunker went down super fast. if mc had scouted the bunker timing he may have been able to get a better read on the situation and played safer by getting up his detection.

in summation, both the depot and the bunker were too early for supernova to realistically be doing an efficient 1 rax CC opening, and i believe it was mc's mistake for not realizing that.



He was tired and jetlaged. He played well enough in that situation.
Moltke
Profile Joined December 2011
Australia10 Posts
January 12 2012 08:03 GMT
#144
Awesome insight. I was wondering if you could do in depth analysis of some more of these mind games if you see them. I only picked up on the 4gate by MC but that was easy due to the blatant overlord scout
Hren
Profile Joined April 2011
Slovenia86 Posts
January 12 2012 08:53 GMT
#145
The first mindgame revolves a lot around 4 gate being able to pressure terran, forcing him into disadvantageous precauteons. I don`t play protoss, so I`d be really thankful, if anyone could explain just in a few words, why exactly can`t the same (albeit somewhat weaker) pressure be applied by "only" 3 gates (+ a robo). I mean, woudn`t that be still very strong against fast 3rd CC (which is the whole point - to punish the greed)?
firehand101
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Australia3152 Posts
January 12 2012 10:47 GMT
#146
great read man, love to see if the players actually thought this way!
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.
Myrddraal
Profile Joined December 2010
Australia937 Posts
January 12 2012 13:14 GMT
#147
On January 11 2012 17:56 pjw wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 11 2012 15:43 0neder wrote:
On January 11 2012 15:40 Bengui wrote:
On January 11 2012 15:29 pjw wrote:
This isnt a good thing lol.

This is stupid. Yes they played it masterfully, but it's still just a cheap trick. This shouldnt win games, I'm starting to see why alot of top players always spout the term 'cointoss'


Disagree. Starcraft is a strategy game, not a mechanics challenge. If you can successfully play with your opponent's head, you deserve the win.


pwj, youtube 'Casey fake FFE' on youtube and then come back and tell me that such clever tricks don't deserve a victory. =)


The first time it deserves a victory.

When stuff like this is repeated over and over and over again then it will just be a cointoss.

It's not even that smart, it's essentially baiting.

Seriously, just because this guy made a pretty post people are lapping this stuff up as some sort of amazing feat. This happens multiple times in every quake duel on a decent level. The only difference is a game isnt always decided after one wrong guess.

I really hope this kind of thing eventually fades out for more methodical play(see supernova vs Leenock) as not only is it boring to watch, it's miserable to see clearly more talented players get 'metagamed'


I doubt it will fall off, because as trends change people will change up their builds and new builds will create more exploitable weaknesses. I think this type of play is just fine, if you can find a weakness in someones build and play why not exploit it? Its up to the other player to be good enough to react before its too late, and if they react correctly and quickly enough, assuming the exploit was not totally all in, then you will have your back and forth macro game.

[stranded]: http://www.indiedb.com/games/stranded
Twistacles
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada1327 Posts
January 12 2012 17:42 GMT
#148
great writeup, and I agree. I especially liked when Nestea busted MVP's greedy 3 cc build!
"If you don't give a shit which gum you buy, get stride" - Tyler
infinity2k9
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United Kingdom2397 Posts
January 12 2012 18:13 GMT
#149
On January 12 2012 09:27 Redmark wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2012 08:08 pikagrue wrote:
Honestly, this feels like just dressing up a weighted coin flip. Yes, you can research all sorts of things to weigh the coin so it favors a certain outcome, but in the end, a coin is still being flipped.

Isn't that what all games are, unless they're like chess and have perfect information and turn-based?

Sure, you might have really good micro. Sure, your strategic mind has picked up on his patterns and how he moves his army. But there's always that chance that he does a random a-move when you're not expecting it and your marines melt to banelings.

Sure, you think he's going to drop your main. He has to, right? That's what he's teching for, right? You put part of your army to defend because there's a 90% chance of a drop happening. But the opponent, he doesn't give a fuck. He marches right into your third and kills it before you can respond. That too is possible.

Skill and preparation are about weighting the coin, right? You're never going to have a guaranteed victory. All you can do is give yourself the best chance possible.


No because in BW and hopefully in SC2 in the future, micro skill can overcome this kind of thing. While mindgames especially in long series and teamgames are fun and interesting if they completely decide games and so often it's going to get stale.
Flonomenalz
Profile Joined May 2011
Nigeria3519 Posts
January 12 2012 22:47 GMT
#150
On January 13 2012 03:13 infinity2k9 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2012 09:27 Redmark wrote:
On January 12 2012 08:08 pikagrue wrote:
Honestly, this feels like just dressing up a weighted coin flip. Yes, you can research all sorts of things to weigh the coin so it favors a certain outcome, but in the end, a coin is still being flipped.

Isn't that what all games are, unless they're like chess and have perfect information and turn-based?

Sure, you might have really good micro. Sure, your strategic mind has picked up on his patterns and how he moves his army. But there's always that chance that he does a random a-move when you're not expecting it and your marines melt to banelings.

Sure, you think he's going to drop your main. He has to, right? That's what he's teching for, right? You put part of your army to defend because there's a 90% chance of a drop happening. But the opponent, he doesn't give a fuck. He marches right into your third and kills it before you can respond. That too is possible.

Skill and preparation are about weighting the coin, right? You're never going to have a guaranteed victory. All you can do is give yourself the best chance possible.


No because in BW and hopefully in SC2 in the future, micro skill can overcome this kind of thing. While mindgames especially in long series and teamgames are fun and interesting if they completely decide games and so often it's going to get stale.

I hope so.

BO loss into a-move happens so much even at top level play... micro needs to have more of an effect outside of the first two seconds of a battle.
I love crazymoving
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
January 12 2012 23:57 GMT
#151
On January 13 2012 03:13 infinity2k9 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2012 09:27 Redmark wrote:
On January 12 2012 08:08 pikagrue wrote:
Honestly, this feels like just dressing up a weighted coin flip. Yes, you can research all sorts of things to weigh the coin so it favors a certain outcome, but in the end, a coin is still being flipped.

Isn't that what all games are, unless they're like chess and have perfect information and turn-based?

Sure, you might have really good micro. Sure, your strategic mind has picked up on his patterns and how he moves his army. But there's always that chance that he does a random a-move when you're not expecting it and your marines melt to banelings.

Sure, you think he's going to drop your main. He has to, right? That's what he's teching for, right? You put part of your army to defend because there's a 90% chance of a drop happening. But the opponent, he doesn't give a fuck. He marches right into your third and kills it before you can respond. That too is possible.

Skill and preparation are about weighting the coin, right? You're never going to have a guaranteed victory. All you can do is give yourself the best chance possible.


No because in BW and hopefully in SC2 in the future, micro skill can overcome this kind of thing. While mindgames especially in long series and teamgames are fun and interesting if they completely decide games and so often it's going to get stale.


I agree that mind games should not define a game or lead to a win outright. If anything, they should allow a player to gain an advantage which they can then capitalize through solid play.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
YaTa
Profile Joined January 2011
51 Posts
January 13 2012 00:24 GMT
#152
i demand more of this!
monk
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States8476 Posts
January 13 2012 01:20 GMT
#153
MC's scouting probe was blocked by a barracks, 2 supply depot wall. Players savvy in the PvT matchup may know that if you scout the opponent on your first try (which is guaranteed on GSL Antiga Shipyard because of forced cross positions), your probe arrives at the Terran's base when a standard gas opening doesn't have enough minerals to build the second supply depot. So if you see that second depot, you know that Terran didn't build a refinery yet.

Disagree here. When I see a fast supply depot like that, it tells me my opponent doesn't want me to know if he has gas or not.

When the Protoss knows Terran is opening with gasless FE and takes his own fast expo, 4 gate pressure is simply a better build than 3 gates with a robo. Gasless FE is usually followed up by either medivac/stim tech(the standard TvP build) or by a fast 3rd CC, neither of which a robo is immediately useful against. A robo with observers kills Protoss' ability to pressure before Terran's stimpack is done researching, and also delays Protoss' 3rd base unnecessarily. At best the 3 gate robo followup comes out even against standard medivac play, and is terrible against fast 3rd CC. 4 gate, on the other hand, puts immense pressure on Terran between 8 and 9 minutes. Terran is especially vulnerable during this period because the standard medivac build has neither stim nor medivacs at this time, and fast 3rd CC delays those even further. This combined with the fact that Terran fears a potential 6 gate all-in means that he must make more bunkers and pull many SCVs off of mining to get ready to repair. Until Terran has stim and medivacs (or ghosts if he went for that route), it is not safe to sell the bunkers and send SCVs back to mining. Once the 9 minute mark is reached and Terran has stim, Protoss simply retreats his units and takes a 3rd base with the resources saved from not getting any tech or upgrades. All in all, the Terran is in a worse position economically than he would be if Protoss didn't pressure

I highly disagree with most of the stuff in this section. Basically, you haven't convinced me at all that 1 gate FE into 4 gate is strictly superior to 1 gate FE into 3 gate robo vs 1 rax cc. If you've read a lot of my strategy forum posts, you'll find that I'm a huge anti-fan of blanket statements like "When the Protoss knows Terran is opening with gasless FE and takes his own fast expo, 4 gate pressure is simply a better build than 3 gates with a robo." Every single "greedy" build that Terran can do including fast cloaked banshee and 3rd CC can hold the standard 4 gate pressure with 2-3 bunkers and a decent scv pull. In addition, a safe terran has to prepare for a 4 gate pressure even if you're doing 3 gate robo. A really fast observer does have its uses, being able to scout for such non-superstandard play such as ghost pushes, fast 3rd cc, cloaked banshee, or marine tank pushes. Then, the observers become useful for fending off drops. With a 4 gate opening, you're relying on your push for scouting, which not always paint as clear a picture. As for the potential 6 gate allin, a 3 gate robo player can do an even stronger 6 gate immortal allin against terran; MC himself has shown many variations of such a build.

If gasless FE into medivacs is the soft counter to 1 gate FE into 3 gate robo, then gasless 3rd CC is the hard counter.
Pretty much disagree for the same reason I disagreed in the above point. At least with 3 gate robo, you can scout the terran's 3rd cc in time and start your nexus accordingly. With 4 gate, you might just stay on 2 base for too long. You can hold off any early pressure from toss if you play it well. The big disadvantage with going fast 3rd CC is that you have to kind of blindly prepare for everything to be safe and be very creative with your scouting, either with hidden SCVs or burning scans. That is, you have to prepare extra bunkers for vs 6 gates, fast starport for colossi allins, and eng bays to not fall behind versus double upgrades.
Moderator
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
January 13 2012 01:28 GMT
#154
On January 13 2012 03:13 infinity2k9 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2012 09:27 Redmark wrote:
On January 12 2012 08:08 pikagrue wrote:
Honestly, this feels like just dressing up a weighted coin flip. Yes, you can research all sorts of things to weigh the coin so it favors a certain outcome, but in the end, a coin is still being flipped.

Isn't that what all games are, unless they're like chess and have perfect information and turn-based?

Sure, you might have really good micro. Sure, your strategic mind has picked up on his patterns and how he moves his army. But there's always that chance that he does a random a-move when you're not expecting it and your marines melt to banelings.

Sure, you think he's going to drop your main. He has to, right? That's what he's teching for, right? You put part of your army to defend because there's a 90% chance of a drop happening. But the opponent, he doesn't give a fuck. He marches right into your third and kills it before you can respond. That too is possible.

Skill and preparation are about weighting the coin, right? You're never going to have a guaranteed victory. All you can do is give yourself the best chance possible.


No because in BW and hopefully in SC2 in the future, micro skill can overcome this kind of thing. While mindgames especially in long series and teamgames are fun and interesting if they completely decide games and so often it's going to get stale.

This is delusional talk. Mindgames still decide games ALL the time in BW.
diophan
Profile Joined September 2011
United States1018 Posts
January 13 2012 03:52 GMT
#155
I was annoyed at so many calling jjaki a cheeser and stuff like that, glad someone points out how badly he was mind gaming his teammate. Also nice explanations for the rest--I miss this stuff. I'm glad MC was able to make it out in the end. I'd be sad if his HSC casting got him knocked out of the RO32.
iamke55
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
United States2806 Posts
January 13 2012 06:19 GMT
#156
On January 13 2012 10:20 NrGmonk wrote:
Show nested quote +
MC's scouting probe was blocked by a barracks, 2 supply depot wall. Players savvy in the PvT matchup may know that if you scout the opponent on your first try (which is guaranteed on GSL Antiga Shipyard because of forced cross positions), your probe arrives at the Terran's base when a standard gas opening doesn't have enough minerals to build the second supply depot. So if you see that second depot, you know that Terran didn't build a refinery yet.

Disagree here. When I see a fast supply depot like that, it tells me my opponent doesn't want me to know if he has gas or not.

Show nested quote +
When the Protoss knows Terran is opening with gasless FE and takes his own fast expo, 4 gate pressure is simply a better build than 3 gates with a robo. Gasless FE is usually followed up by either medivac/stim tech(the standard TvP build) or by a fast 3rd CC, neither of which a robo is immediately useful against. A robo with observers kills Protoss' ability to pressure before Terran's stimpack is done researching, and also delays Protoss' 3rd base unnecessarily. At best the 3 gate robo followup comes out even against standard medivac play, and is terrible against fast 3rd CC. 4 gate, on the other hand, puts immense pressure on Terran between 8 and 9 minutes. Terran is especially vulnerable during this period because the standard medivac build has neither stim nor medivacs at this time, and fast 3rd CC delays those even further. This combined with the fact that Terran fears a potential 6 gate all-in means that he must make more bunkers and pull many SCVs off of mining to get ready to repair. Until Terran has stim and medivacs (or ghosts if he went for that route), it is not safe to sell the bunkers and send SCVs back to mining. Once the 9 minute mark is reached and Terran has stim, Protoss simply retreats his units and takes a 3rd base with the resources saved from not getting any tech or upgrades. All in all, the Terran is in a worse position economically than he would be if Protoss didn't pressure

I highly disagree with most of the stuff in this section. Basically, you haven't convinced me at all that 1 gate FE into 4 gate is strictly superior to 1 gate FE into 3 gate robo vs 1 rax cc. If you've read a lot of my strategy forum posts, you'll find that I'm a huge anti-fan of blanket statements like "When the Protoss knows Terran is opening with gasless FE and takes his own fast expo, 4 gate pressure is simply a better build than 3 gates with a robo." Every single "greedy" build that Terran can do including fast cloaked banshee and 3rd CC can hold the standard 4 gate pressure with 2-3 bunkers and a decent scv pull. In addition, a safe terran has to prepare for a 4 gate pressure even if you're doing 3 gate robo. A really fast observer does have its uses, being able to scout for such non-superstandard play such as ghost pushes, fast 3rd cc, cloaked banshee, or marine tank pushes. Then, the observers become useful for fending off drops. With a 4 gate opening, you're relying on your push for scouting, which not always paint as clear a picture. As for the potential 6 gate allin, a 3 gate robo player can do an even stronger 6 gate immortal allin against terran; MC himself has shown many variations of such a build.

Show nested quote +
If gasless FE into medivacs is the soft counter to 1 gate FE into 3 gate robo, then gasless 3rd CC is the hard counter.
Pretty much disagree for the same reason I disagreed in the above point. At least with 3 gate robo, you can scout the terran's 3rd cc in time and start your nexus accordingly. With 4 gate, you might just stay on 2 base for too long. You can hold off any early pressure from toss if you play it well. The big disadvantage with going fast 3rd CC is that you have to kind of blindly prepare for everything to be safe and be very creative with your scouting, either with hidden SCVs or burning scans. That is, you have to prepare extra bunkers for vs 6 gates, fast starport for colossi allins, and eng bays to not fall behind versus double upgrades.

Whether or not Terran wants you to know about his gas doesn't change the fact that he can't afford both a refinery and a supply depot that early, and that this is a common sign of 1 rax FE. Of course, nobody commits to a read off of just the supply depot, but when you also see the low ground bunker, that's when you're almost certain there's a CC behind it.

About the rest, you must be playing the safest Terrans in the world if they play the same against 3 gate robo and 4 gate. I don't know how you can deny that 4 gate forces more bunkers and SCVs pulled. I even have a replay of you playing against NrGAvoid who made 1 bunker and didn't pull SCVs because you never went to his side of the map despite seeing his expansion CC. MC did the greediest possible 3 gate robo in his game against ForGG, taking his third at 9 minutes just like he does when using 4 gates. He still faced a 30+ supply disadvantage and lost after killing 2 full medivacs for free. Compare to his game vs Cloud at HSC4, where he donated a nexus, 4 zealots, and his entire group of stalkers over the course of the game and still won through pure macro. These are mistakes you would never get away with against a Terran who's free to do whatever he wants off of 1 bunker. MC played way better against ForGG on Bel'Shir Beach than he did against Cloud on Daybreak, but lost mainly because ForGG had 50 more supply than Cloud at any given point in the game. If you want to see how much harder it is to play against a greedy Terran, I have a friend you could play against who never makes bunkers.
During practice session, I discovered very good build against zerg. -Bisu[Shield]
FinestHour
Profile Joined August 2010
United States18466 Posts
January 13 2012 07:13 GMT
#157
Just too damn smart, great and eyeopening read.
thug life.                                                       MVP/ex-
monk
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States8476 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-13 11:41:08
January 13 2012 11:40 GMT
#158
On January 13 2012 15:19 iamke55 wrote:
Whether or not Terran wants you to know about his gas doesn't change the fact that he can't afford both a refinery and a supply depot that early, and that this is a common sign of 1 rax FE. Of course, nobody commits to a read off of just the supply depot, but when you also see the low ground bunker, that's when you're almost certain there's a CC behind it.

You can make both that early as Terran. If you couldn't then how do you explain how Supernova made both too early? You just have to delay your OC a bit or go 16 OC.

About the rest, you must be playing the safest Terrans in the world if they play the same against 3 gate robo and 4 gate. I don't know how you can deny that 4 gate forces more bunkers and SCVs pulled. I even have a replay of you playing against NrGAvoid who made 1 bunker and didn't pull SCVs because you never went to his side of the map despite seeing his expansion CC. MC did the greediest possible 3 gate robo in his game against ForGG, taking his third at 9 minutes just like he does when using 4 gates. He still faced a 30+ supply disadvantage and lost after killing 2 full medivacs for free. Compare to his game vs Cloud at HSC4, where he donated a nexus, 4 zealots, and his entire group of stalkers over the course of the game and still won through pure macro. These are mistakes you would never get away with against a Terran who's free to do whatever he wants off of 1 bunker. MC played way better against ForGG on Bel'Shir Beach than he did against Cloud on Daybreak, but lost mainly because ForGG had 50 more supply than Cloud at any given point in the game. If you want to see how much harder it is to play against a greedy Terran, I have a friend you could play against who never makes bunkers.

Using my own replays as an example is hax. We were both playing the same strats over and over for a long time, so he knew he could be greedy with me. My point is that as a terran you have to account for 4 gate to be completely safe, because it's really hard to tell the difference between 3 gate robo and 4 gate until the attack actually comes. Any terran who goes fast banshee or 3 cc will put up 2+ bunkers if they're being extra safe. In fact, there was a thread about how LiquidHero was being too aggressive with strats like his 4 gates against Puma and that's why he lost the NASL finals.

In the particular game vs ForGG, MC knew for a fact that ForGG had not gas for a very long time. If ForGG had actually gone cloaked banshees, they would have been more than a minute late, which would have given enough time for MC to do his 4 gate pressure and then add a robo and base trade versus the cloaked banshees. Thus, I doubt that MC went 3 gate robo largely in part because he feared 1 base cloaked banshee.

Also in the game vs ForGG, MC was only down 10 supply after killing 2 medivacs, but was whittle down to a 30 supply deficit directly after the battle, because he army was out of position and he had a unit composition disadvantage. Imo the big mistake of MC in that game was getting colossi too late. In my experience, vs a Terran who rushes 3cc, you need some type of fast AoE to stop the mass bio that will eventualyl be coming. I can't comment much about the game vs Cloud because I don't remember it.
Moderator
Condor Hero
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States2931 Posts
January 13 2012 17:23 GMT
#159
On January 12 2012 05:00 Azzur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2012 01:01 Typhus wrote:
On January 11 2012 14:24 Azzur wrote:
On January 11 2012 13:53 sickoota wrote:
You can only dress up coinflipping so much, sorry. If mindgames alone can dictate 4 out of every 5 games that is not a good place for a game to be in competitively. Denying scouting and putting a bunker on the lowground isn't some revolutionary, highly intelligent play, its just praying that dumb luck will favor you based on a couple of replays you watched of your competitor and it makes for a horrid spectator experience.

These games were coinflips because the players chose them to be. For instance, if MC had gone 1-gate FE into 3-gate robo against supernova, he should've easily won the game.

So MC does the build he did, ha automatically he loses, he does the other build he automatically wins, by your definition. Isnt that pretty much the definition of Supernova flipping a coin to see if he wins?

You misunderstood my statement - I'm claiming that the Supernova vs MC game was a coinflip only because the players chose for it to be one. Yes, Supernova coinflipped and MC in return coinflipped and lost. Instead, MC had a perfectly good non-coinflip build which is good against many things but he chose to not use it. The OP highlighted that the 3-gate robo is hard countered by no-gas 3CC but I disagreed with that assessment. In return, Supernova had a perfectly good non coinflip build as well (1-rax FE).

Thus, SC2 doesn't have to be a coinflip game unless the players chose to indulge in it.

You disagree with 3-gate robo being hard countered by fast 3rd CC, I don't see any justification besides you just saying you disagree with it while OP shows an example of MC, one of the best if not the best macro Protoss, being down 30 supply by midgame even after killing off 2 fully loaded medievacs.
RaiKageRyu
Profile Joined August 2009
Canada4773 Posts
January 14 2012 03:23 GMT
#160
This kind of stuff needs to find its way into the official recaps.
Someone call down the Thunder?
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