Mindgames in GSL *spoiler* - Page 8

On January 12 2012 16:12 megapants wrote:
i think mc made a poor read on supernova, actually. as it has been said before, if terran is going 1 rax no gas FE his second depot should be far more delayed. although a lot of players do delay their cc until after the depot, i think mc should not have - or possibly didn't - assume there was an expo until he saw the bunker at the ramp. but even then, i think that bunker timing was just too early 1 rax CC > 3-4 rax to be confirmed. a probe could have gone up the ramp far before his zealot+stalker and confirmed that the bunker went down super fast. if mc had scouted the bunker timing he may have been able to get a better read on the situation and played safer by getting up his detection.

in summation, both the depot and the bunker were too early for supernova to realistically be doing an efficient 1 rax CC opening, and i believe it was mc's mistake for not realizing that.

On January 11 2012 17:56 pjw wrote:


The first time it deserves a victory.

When stuff like this is repeated over and over and over again then it will just be a cointoss.

It's not even that smart, it's essentially baiting.

Seriously, just because this guy made a pretty post people are lapping this stuff up as some sort of amazing feat. This happens multiple times in every quake duel on a decent level. The only difference is a game isnt always decided after one wrong guess.

I really hope this kind of thing eventually fades out for more methodical play(see supernova vs Leenock) as not only is it boring to watch, it's miserable to see clearly more talented players get 'metagamed'

On January 12 2012 09:27 Redmark wrote:

Isn't that what all games are, unless they're like chess and have perfect information and turn-based?

Sure, you might have really good micro. Sure, your strategic mind has picked up on his patterns and how he moves his army. But there's always that chance that he does a random a-move when you're not expecting it and your marines melt to banelings.

Sure, you think he's going to drop your main. He has to, right? That's what he's teching for, right? You put part of your army to defend because there's a 90% chance of a drop happening. But the opponent, he doesn't give a fuck. He marches right into your third and kills it before you can respond. That too is possible.

Skill and preparation are about weighting the coin, right? You're never going to have a guaranteed victory. All you can do is give yourself the best chance possible.

On January 13 2012 03:13 infinity2k9 wrote:


No because in BW and hopefully in SC2 in the future, micro skill can overcome this kind of thing. While mindgames especially in long series and teamgames are fun and interesting if they completely decide games and so often it's going to get stale.

On January 13 2012 03:13 infinity2k9 wrote:


No because in BW and hopefully in SC2 in the future, micro skill can overcome this kind of thing. While mindgames especially in long series and teamgames are fun and interesting if they completely decide games and so often it's going to get stale.

MC's scouting probe was blocked by a barracks, 2 supply depot wall. Players savvy in the PvT matchup may know that if you scout the opponent on your first try (which is guaranteed on GSL Antiga Shipyard because of forced cross positions), your probe arrives at the Terran's base when a standard gas opening doesn't have enough minerals to build the second supply depot. So if you see that second depot, you know that Terran didn't build a refinery yet.

When the Protoss knows Terran is opening with gasless FE and takes his own fast expo, 4 gate pressure is simply a better build than 3 gates with a robo. Gasless FE is usually followed up by either medivac/stim tech(the standard TvP build) or by a fast 3rd CC, neither of which a robo is immediately useful against. A robo with observers kills Protoss' ability to pressure before Terran's stimpack is done researching, and also delays Protoss' 3rd base unnecessarily. At best the 3 gate robo followup comes out even against standard medivac play, and is terrible against fast 3rd CC. 4 gate, on the other hand, puts immense pressure on Terran between 8 and 9 minutes. Terran is especially vulnerable during this period because the standard medivac build has neither stim nor medivacs at this time, and fast 3rd CC delays those even further. This combined with the fact that Terran fears a potential 6 gate all-in means that he must make more bunkers and pull many SCVs off of mining to get ready to repair. Until Terran has stim and medivacs (or ghosts if he went for that route), it is not safe to sell the bunkers and send SCVs back to mining. Once the 9 minute mark is reached and Terran has stim, Protoss simply retreats his units and takes a 3rd base with the resources saved from not getting any tech or upgrades. All in all, the Terran is in a worse position economically than he would be if Protoss didn't pressure

If gasless FE into medivacs is the soft counter to 1 gate FE into 3 gate robo, then gasless 3rd CC is the hard counter.

On January 13 2012 03:13 infinity2k9 wrote:


No because in BW and hopefully in SC2 in the future, micro skill can overcome this kind of thing. While mindgames especially in long series and teamgames are fun and interesting if they completely decide games and so often it's going to get stale.

On January 13 2012 10:20 NrGmonk wrote:

Disagree here. When I see a fast supply depot like that, it tells me my opponent doesn't want me to know if he has gas or not.


I highly disagree with most of the stuff in this section. Basically, you haven't convinced me at all that 1 gate FE into 4 gate is strictly superior to 1 gate FE into 3 gate robo vs 1 rax cc. If you've read a lot of my strategy forum posts, you'll find that I'm a huge anti-fan of blanket statements like "When the Protoss knows Terran is opening with gasless FE and takes his own fast expo, 4 gate pressure is simply a better build than 3 gates with a robo." Every single "greedy" build that Terran can do including fast cloaked banshee and 3rd CC can hold the standard 4 gate pressure with 2-3 bunkers and a decent scv pull. In addition, a safe terran has to prepare for a 4 gate pressure even if you're doing 3 gate robo. A really fast observer does have its uses, being able to scout for such non-superstandard play such as ghost pushes, fast 3rd cc, cloaked banshee, or marine tank pushes. Then, the observers become useful for fending off drops. With a 4 gate opening, you're relying on your push for scouting, which not always paint as clear a picture. As for the potential 6 gate allin, a 3 gate robo player can do an even stronger 6 gate immortal allin against terran; MC himself has shown many variations of such a build.

Pretty much disagree for the same reason I disagreed in the above point. At least with 3 gate robo, you can scout the terran's 3rd cc in time and start your nexus accordingly. With 4 gate, you might just stay on 2 base for too long. You can hold off any early pressure from toss if you play it well. The big disadvantage with going fast 3rd CC is that you have to kind of blindly prepare for everything to be safe and be very creative with your scouting, either with hidden SCVs or burning scans. That is, you have to prepare extra bunkers for vs 6 gates, fast starport for colossi allins, and eng bays to not fall behind versus double upgrades.

On January 13 2012 15:19 iamke55 wrote:
Whether or not Terran wants you to know about his gas doesn't change the fact that he can't afford both a refinery and a supply depot that early, and that this is a common sign of 1 rax FE. Of course, nobody commits to a read off of just the supply depot, but when you also see the low ground bunker, that's when you're almost certain there's a CC behind it.

About the rest, you must be playing the safest Terrans in the world if they play the same against 3 gate robo and 4 gate. I don't know how you can deny that 4 gate forces more bunkers and SCVs pulled. I even have a replay of you playing against NrGAvoid who made 1 bunker and didn't pull SCVs because you never went to his side of the map despite seeing his expansion CC. MC did the greediest possible 3 gate robo in his game against ForGG, taking his third at 9 minutes just like he does when using 4 gates. He still faced a 30+ supply disadvantage and lost after killing 2 full medivacs for free. Compare to his game vs Cloud at HSC4, where he donated a nexus, 4 zealots, and his entire group of stalkers over the course of the game and still won through pure macro. These are mistakes you would never get away with against a Terran who's free to do whatever he wants off of 1 bunker. MC played way better against ForGG on Bel'Shir Beach than he did against Cloud on Daybreak, but lost mainly because ForGG had 50 more supply than Cloud at any given point in the game. If you want to see how much harder it is to play against a greedy Terran, I have a friend you could play against who never makes bunkers.

On January 12 2012 05:00 Azzur wrote:

You misunderstood my statement - I'm claiming that the Supernova vs MC game was a coinflip only because the players chose for it to be one. Yes, Supernova coinflipped and MC in return coinflipped and lost. Instead, MC had a perfectly good non-coinflip build which is good against many things but he chose to not use it. The OP highlighted that the 3-gate robo is hard countered by no-gas 3CC but I disagreed with that assessment. In return, Supernova had a perfectly good non coinflip build as well (1-rax FE).

Thus, SC2 doesn't have to be a coinflip game unless the players chose to indulge in it.