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On January 10 2012 03:40 Mythal wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 03:08 natebreen wrote:
This thread is a perfect example of why Ret and Destiny mocked teamliquid strategy and discussion posts on the homestory cup stream.
Everyone wants a reason why they're not pro, or why they're not masters, or why the game is hard for them but seemingly not for others.
Here's a thought:
Perhaps the people you're losing to are just better than you.
I know that's difficult to swallow, but it just might be true. +1 Every player/race has its own difficulties that players should overcome, otherwise where would be the fun?? Maybe in TvP you need to stutter step, but in PvT if I don't have good FF or AoE when you poke with stim I'm dead (for example).
Please read the words I write. I beg you.
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sounds like you have pre-conceived notions of what you think are worth doing or not doing in starcraft. there is literally no reason to NOT stutter step when it makes terran bio so strong vs protoss/zerg
edit: you think inject larvae is a waste of time? are you for real lmao
This very frustrating thing led me to think: why? I had good builds, good mechanics, never supply blocked, upgrades, bla-bla-bla... but my APM never rises above 70 and, most importantly, I don't have any accuracy at all, misclicking here and there to death. (Bear in mind that when I say "good" it's "good compared to my opponents".) And I REFUSE to train my hand speed and hand-to-eye coordination, much like I REFUSE to spend 100€ on an expensive gaming mouse and keyboard. I simply have other things to do.
like playing sc2? you don't need an expensive keyboard or mouse, you just work on your accuracy and multitasking ability through playing the game more often. this topic really makes 0 sense.
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On January 10 2012 04:41 TylerThaCreator wrote:
sounds like you have pre-conceived notions of what you think are worth doing or not doing in starcraft. there is literally no reason to NOT stutter step when it makes terran bio so strong vs protoss/zerg
edit: you think inject larvae is a waste of time? are you for real lmao
This very frustrating thing led me to think: why? I had good builds, good mechanics, never supply blocked, upgrades, bla-bla-bla... but my APM never rises above 70 and, most importantly, I don't have any accuracy at all, misclicking here and there to death. (Bear in mind that when I say "good" it's "good compared to my opponents".) And I REFUSE to train my hand speed and hand-to-eye coordination, much like I REFUSE to spend 100€ on an expensive gaming mouse and keyboard. I simply have other things to do.
like playing sc2? you don't need an expensive keyboard or mouse, you just work on your accuracy and multitasking ability through playing the game more often. this topic really makes 0 sense.
Again, read the words I write please:
1) I never said you should NOT stuttersept, in fact I said you HAVE TO but that it's dumb since it's clicking very fast with no accuracy requirements at all or any decision-making involved.
2) Yes, Inject larvae is a dumb mechanic. It's obligatory, there's no way around it, you simply have to press a series of buttons as regularly as you can. It could be replaced by... I don't know, typing "Popopopokerface popopokerface" in chat every 45 second to get more larvae. This is why I compared it with OC mechanics, who are much more forgiving and also offer a "smart" way to use them (saving scans, saving Mules for gold, Supply drop in very tight openings...).
3) I am willing to play more often, but I'm not willing to do those silly hand to eye coordination exercices, or practice marine splits on custom maps for hours. I just want to play and watch games, period.
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On January 09 2012 07:07 Kukaracha wrote:
This very frustrating thing led me to think: why? I had good builds, good mechanics, never supply blocked, upgrades, bla-bla-bla...
No you didn't. You probably don't recognize the areas you're falling short in, but they're there. It's not just your dislike of stutter-step.
Do you think stalker/sentry pressure or timings vZ are just A-click? Or that a 6gate can be executed without control? Hell, you don't even have to look away from the battle to do a production round - just hit a barracks key and hold a button. I've played T against master friends, and yes, my infantry control is bad, because I've never had to practice that specific thing - but I could still take games off master Z/P friends through macro, timings, and flailing attempts to spread during battle.
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On January 10 2012 06:06 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:07 Kukaracha wrote:
This very frustrating thing led me to think: why? I had good builds, good mechanics, never supply blocked, upgrades, bla-bla-bla... No you didn't. You probably don't recognize the areas you're falling short in, but they're there. It's not just your dislike of stutter-step. Do you think stalker/sentry pressure or timings vZ are just A-click? Or that a 6gate can be executed without control? Hell, you don't even have to look away from the battle to do a production round - just hit a barracks key and hold a button. I've played T against master friends, and yes, my infantry control is bad, because I've never had to practice that specific thing - but I could still take games off master Z/P friends through macro, timings, and flailing attempts to spread during battle.
On January 10 2012 03:59 Kukaracha wrote:Please read the words I write. I beg you.
I'll help you:
On January 09 2012 11:33 Kukaracha wrote:
On the other hand, Master Terran requires the ability to make a lot more actions (and I stress the word ability, as any pro player, regardless of the race, has it).
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And I completely disagree with that.
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But then, it doesn't have anything to do with timings, or a-clicking (where did I say any race was an a-click race?). Am I even talking about control in general...?
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I'm questioning the assumptions you made at the start of your post - read the part I quoted.
Second, I disagree that master T requires the ability to make more actions. You can achieve the results you say require them without that - by shoring up the other areas of your play. This is where the other things I brought up come into it.
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On January 10 2012 07:32 Dfgj wrote:
I'm questioning the assumptions you made at the start of your post - read the part I quoted.
Second, I disagree that master T requires the ability to make more actions. You can achieve the results you say require them without that - by shoring up the other areas of your play. This is where the other things I brought up come into it.
You took out the part where I say that when I say "good" it's "good compared to my opponents". I do agree that I could simply have a better macro, but then again, I already usually have a good macro compared to my opponent. Logically, one would think, well if I'm better at this, then I should win, but in fact I do not.
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On January 10 2012 03:08 natebreen wrote:
This thread is a perfect example of why Ret and Destiny mocked teamliquid strategy and discussion posts on the homestory cup stream.
Everyone wants a reason why they're not pro, or why they're not masters, or why the game is hard for them but seemingly not for others.
Here's a thought:
Perhaps the people you're losing to are just better than you.
I know that's difficult to swallow, but it just might be true.
Exactly this. The OP is just looking for reasons for his lack of success at the game. Every race has its difficulties, and Terran is most definitely NOT harder. Marine splitting is not very hard to learn, and neither is stutter step.
@OP: You'll be a shitty player until you sort out your attitude. Feel free to tell me to 'please read what I said' like you said to the others, but I did, and there's nothing to be found in your posts but pointless complaining and a lack of understanding of what SC2 is and what it requires.
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I'm really against stereotypes, but this feels like the French arrogance I'm used to from both competitive CS 1.6 and elsewhere.
Everyone here has read what you wrote.
Sometimes the truth is the hardest pill to swallow.
I'm not even going to respond to your posts about stutter step being necessary being a bad thing and larvae inject being obligatory so it's bad.
I mean honestly man?
Think about what you're saying.
You can make units for 50 minerals that can win you the game at lategame, and you're complaining about having to micro them because it doesn't require "decision making."
You can make that argument with any race and any unit. It doesn't mean it holds water.
Stop blabbering and go play 40 games and analyze the replays. You'll be better off for it.
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On January 10 2012 07:46 Swede wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 03:08 natebreen wrote:
This thread is a perfect example of why Ret and Destiny mocked teamliquid strategy and discussion posts on the homestory cup stream.
Everyone wants a reason why they're not pro, or why they're not masters, or why the game is hard for them but seemingly not for others.
Here's a thought:
Perhaps the people you're losing to are just better than you.
I know that's difficult to swallow, but it just might be true. Exactly this. The OP is just looking for reasons for his lack of success at the game. Every race has its difficulties, and Terran is most definitely NOT harder. Marine splitting is not very hard to learn, and neither is stutter step. @OP: You'll be a shitty player until you sort out your attitude. Feel free to tell me to 'please read what I said' like you said to the others, but I did, and there's nothing to be found in your posts but pointless complaining and a lack of understanding of what SC2 is and what it requires.
But don't you see it? The post above is exactly why I feel my point is missed. I say that inject larva is dumb, and people go "aaaw stop crying imba", but that fact is that I'm not criticizing the matchup here, but the CORE MECHANICS.
Not to mention that I'm also crying as a Zerg.
Why? Because Blizzard added artificial difficulty by implementing this shitty reflex that you must have as a Zerg. Yes, inject larva is stupid. How can you even deny it? Let's compare the Queen and OC mechanics:
OC:
- Mule: awesome OP additional worker that can boost your economy. You can save them for when a gold expansion kicks in. You can replace your usual workers with it in the very late game.
- Scan: awesome scouting tool that can give you priceless information if your intuition times it and places it right. Last minute detection. Can be stacked if any DT or Banshee rush is suspected. Can completely deny creep in the late game.
- Supply call: useful last-minute supply depot. Can be used when an opening's timing is very crisp. Can quickly replace lost depots in the very late game. Ideally, you don't need it.
Queen:
- Inject larva: awesome ability that... you actually HAVE to use in a very mechanic way. You have to be consistent through the game. One Queen per Hatchery injecting larva all game. You could train your pet monkey to do it for you with an alarm clock.
- Creep tumor: awesome creep spreading ability, but you also have to do it. It's more forgiving than the previous one. You simply don't do it past a certain stage of the game.
- Transfusion: Useful during very early rushes. Then you don't really use it, except in specific situations.
Am I really the only one who feels that Terran mechanics here are much much more rewarding and dynamic? I mean, I can't train my pet monkey to chose between scanning or Muling or saving energy, but I could train him to inject and spread creep... It's simple and plain APM on the Zerg's part. Boring, too. One could argue that their macro mechanics are very strong, but so are the Terran's, and yet it is much more interesting on the Terran's side.
On January 10 2012 07:51 natebreen wrote:
You can make units for 50 minerals that can win you the game at lategame, and you're complaining about having to micro them because it doesn't require "decision making.
I'm not complainig about having to micro them, Jesus. I already adressed the Marine's strenght in the OP, does anyone read what I write? I'm sincerely feeling quite depressed.
Edit: Also, I'm chilean, not french even though I live in France. But go ahead and stereotype your way to disrespect.
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On January 09 2012 07:43 scarper65 wrote:
This is completely false. I got into masters through pure macro, compared to all my opponents shitty macro. Even in masters, there are many games I will win just because I have more "stuff" than my opponent. I have pretty terrible micro but really the only micro you need if focus firing banes with tanks and landing decent emp. Other than that, it is all about micro and handling harass correctly
i believe this guy
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On January 09 2012 07:10 Endymion wrote:
lol terran is the easiest race why would you make them easier
User was warned for this post
You obviously only played in the beta. Things have changed quite a bit since then.
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So your argument is that the zerg macro mechanic is brainless because it doesn't require you to make decisions with it?
You do know that larvae are used for both offensive unit and drones... forcing the zerg to make choices....
rofl
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On January 10 2012 08:34 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 07:46 Swede wrote:On January 10 2012 03:08 natebreen wrote:
This thread is a perfect example of why Ret and Destiny mocked teamliquid strategy and discussion posts on the homestory cup stream.
Everyone wants a reason why they're not pro, or why they're not masters, or why the game is hard for them but seemingly not for others.
Here's a thought:
Perhaps the people you're losing to are just better than you.
I know that's difficult to swallow, but it just might be true. Exactly this. The OP is just looking for reasons for his lack of success at the game. Every race has its difficulties, and Terran is most definitely NOT harder. Marine splitting is not very hard to learn, and neither is stutter step. @OP: You'll be a shitty player until you sort out your attitude. Feel free to tell me to 'please read what I said' like you said to the others, but I did, and there's nothing to be found in your posts but pointless complaining and a lack of understanding of what SC2 is and what it requires. But don't you see it? The post above is exactly why I feel my point is missed. I say that inject larva is dumb, and people go "aaaw stop crying imba", but that fact is that I'm not criticizing the matchup here, but the CORE MECHANICS. Not to mention that I'm also crying as a Zerg. Why? Because Blizzard added artificial difficulty by implementing this shitty reflex that you must have as a Zerg. Yes, inject larva is stupid. How can you even deny it? Let's compare the Queen and OC mechanics: OC: - Mule: awesome OP additional worker that can boost your economy. You can save them for when a gold expansion kicks in. You can replace your usual workers with it in the very late game.
- Scan: awesome scouting tool that can give you priceless information if your intuition times it and places it right. Last minute detection. Can be stacked if any DT or Banshee rush is suspected. Can completely deny creep in the late game.
- Supply call: useful last-minute supply depot. Can be used when an opening's timing is very crisp. Can quickly replace lost depots in the very late game. Ideally, you don't need it.
Queen: - Inject larva: awesome ability that... you actually HAVE to use in a very mechanic way. You have to be consistent through the game. One Queen per Hatchery injecting larva all game. You could train your pet monkey to do it for you with an alarm clock.
- Creep tumor: awesome creep spreading ability, but you also have to do it. It's more forgiving than the previous one. You simply don't do it past a certain stage of the game.
- Transfusion: Useful during very early rushes. Then you don't really use it, except in specific situations.
Am I really the only one who feels that Terran mechanics here are much much more rewarding and dynamic? I mean, I can't train my pet monkey to chose between scanning or Muling or saving energy, but I could train him to inject and spread creep... It's simple and plain APM on the Zerg's part. Boring, too. One could argue that their macro mechanics are very strong, but so are the Terran's, and yet it is much more interesting on the Terran's side. Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 07:51 natebreen wrote:
You can make units for 50 minerals that can win you the game at lategame, and you're complaining about having to micro them because it doesn't require "decision making. I'm not complainig about having to micro them, Jesus. I already adressed the Marine's strenght in the OP, does anyone read what I write? I'm sincerely feeling quite depressed. Edit: Also, I'm chilean, not french even though I live in France. But go ahead and stereotype your way to disrespect.
Your point isn't missed, it just doesn't exist. If you were being consistent in criticising things that don't require 'decisions' you would end up criticising most things in the game at some point. Decisions only occur in situations where you are not sure which option is more likely to increase your chances of winning. The better you are at the game, the less decision making you actually use (in terms of mechanical things). The choice to MULE or scan becomes obvious. Are you building up an army in your base and are relatively aware of what your opponent is doing? MULE. Are you moving out on the map verse a Zerg who may have burrow? Scan. Is your opponent going banshees while you are 1 rax expanding? Save your energy until you get turrets/a raven up. For a good player, these are not decisions. They are requirements in order to give you the best chance to win. Decisions only exist where there is no clear cut better option.
(don't misunderstand the above paragraph by the way. There is SO much decision making in SC, just the decisions are more abstract the better you are)
Anyway, I think the thing that you misunderstand about Starcraft is that it isn't a game which is purely cerebral. It's not chess. There are things which you just have to do in order to win. Whether or not you agree with that is irrelevant. This IS the game. If you want to be good then you need to accept that marine splitting is probably going to be a necessity, as is stutter step micro. This is why most people are criticising your attitude. It's because you have a fundamental lack of understanding of what the game actually involves, ie that much of the game is physical mechanics, execution - things that don't require any amount of decision making whatsoever.
You can ignore everything I've said and continue on your silly tirade against the core design, but it's never going to change and so it really is a pointless thing to be getting upset about. Either accept what you have to do to get better and do it, or continue to call it 'stupid, artificial difficulty' and never grow as a player. I don't expect you to admit you're wrong in this thread, but just consider what I've said.
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On January 10 2012 09:17 natebreen wrote:
So your argument is that the zerg macro mechanic is brainless because it doesn't require you to make decisions with it?
You do know that larvae are used for both offensive unit and drones... forcing the zerg to make choices....
rofl
Not at all. I say that Zergs are unlucky because their mechanics are as demanding as Terran's but very dull in comparison.
It's as if Terrans had to read Tolkien's LOTR and Zerg have to read a dictionnary. Both will take the same time, but the first book is just so much more interesting.
Swede: well, let me make a BW comparison.
The beauty of BW is that every aspect of it demanded a lot of skill. Controlling a single control group of Dragoons through a bridge demanded as much micro as the management of 6 Barracks. Every micro decision counted heavily. But this was possible at a certain time in the history of videogames. Ergonomic progress would not allow any editor to repeat this experience.
Now take SC2. Much less demanding than BW, right? And yet, many things "artificially" make the game more demanding in terms of hand speed, Injects and Stutter step being two examples.
You say that everything is a reflex at pro level, and it's very true (I actually saw a documentary on this, maybe you've seen it too). However, 99,99% of the community is not pro and enjoys a completely different game. What I dislike about stutter step and injects is that it's a formality through the whole ladder... and it allows no creativity at all, wether in GM or Bronze league.
I will also repeat for the fourth time that I DO accept that stutter step is a necessity - I do accept that there are things in the game that you can't dismiss. This is why I simply switched races instead, because I knew it was a necessity and that I'd rather try other obligations at the moment.
Now, I said (and wrote it in big red letters, too) that I could be wrong, and that I will see this by myself in the following weeks.
I simply don't understand why I get so much shit about being a terrible player, an idiot, an arrogant frenchie after talking about DETAILS, underlining that I, myself, thought of these things as DETAILS, while adding that I could be completely wrong. I try to be tempered and I get the same reactions people get when they rant about "Terran being so OP".
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So you're frustrated because there are basic strategies that are "good" and have been established to be useful?
I'm so confused what your point is.
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On January 10 2012 10:07 natebreen wrote:
So you're frustrated because there are basic strategies that are "good" and have been established to be useful?
I'm so confused what your point is.
Now I'm the one confused, I don't see where you saw this.
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On January 10 2012 09:56 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 09:17 natebreen wrote:
So your argument is that the zerg macro mechanic is brainless because it doesn't require you to make decisions with it?
You do know that larvae are used for both offensive unit and drones... forcing the zerg to make choices....
rofl Not at all. I say that Zergs are unlucky because their mechanics are as demanding as Terran's but very dull in comparison. It's as if Terrans had to read Tolkien's LOTR and Zerg have to read a dictionnary. Both will take the same time, but the first book is just so much more interesting. Swede: well, let me make a BW comparison. The beauty of BW is that every aspect of it demanded a lot of skill. Controlling a single control group of Dragoons through a bridge demanded as much micro as the management of 6 Barracks. Every micro decision counted heavily. But this was possible at a certain time in the history of videogames. Ergonomic progress would not allow any editor to repeat this experience. Now take SC2. Much less demanding than BW, right? And yet, many things "artificially" make the game more demanding in terms of hand speed, Injects and Stutter step being two examples. You say that everything is a reflex at pro level, and it's very true (I actually saw a documentary on this, maybe you've seen it too). However, 99,99% of the community is not pro and enjoys a completely different game. What I dislike about stutter step and injects is that it's a formality through the whole ladder... and it allows no creativity at all, wether in GM or Bronze league. I will also repeat for the fourth time that I DO accept that stutter step is a necessity - I do accept that there are things in the game that you can't dismiss. This is why I simply switched races instead, because I knew it was a necessity and that I'd rather try other obligations at the moment. Now, I said (and wrote it in big red letters, too) that I could be wrong, and that I will see this by myself in the following weeks. I simply don't understand why I get so much shit about being a terrible player, an idiot, an arrogant frenchie after talking about DETAILS, underlining that I, myself, thought of these things as DETAILS, while adding that I could be completely wrong. I try to be tempered and I get the same reactions people get when they rant about "Terran being so OP".
The only reason you see the management of 6 barracks with no multiple building selection as organic to the BW, but inject larvae as artificial to SC2 is because one game came before the other. If Blizzard suddenly decided to remove MBS in HotS wouldn't you call that 'artificially creating difficulty'? Point being that the only distinction between 'artificial skill' and 'actual skill' is in your head. Stutter step and unit splitting both existed in BW too. Was it 'artifically creating difficulty' then?
I understand where you're coming from, but you have to realise that injecting larvae is as inane an action as typing 'popopokerface' or whatever your earlier example was. One is definitely more stupid, but they're both just means to an end.
I'm not calling you an idiot or an arrogant frenchie, though I have said you have a shitty attitude to the game. But the reason people are calling you an idiot is because your whole argument is built on a stack of contradictions. I could use similar argumentation to point to almost any aspect of the game and say that it's 'artificially creating skill', but what does it even mean in practicality? It's just a way of criticising features you don't enjoy rather than realising they're exactly the same as the ones you do enjoy (at the basic level, anyway).
And it's all well and good to say 'I could be completely wrong', but if you're not willing to admit to being wrong then it's a throw-away comment. You might not think that you've been conclusively proven wrong in this thread, and that's totally fine, but just be aware that tacking on 'I could be completely wrong' doesn't add anything to your actual argument. It's something you say as a way of preserving your dignity in case you realise you are wrong later down the track.
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