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Disclaimer for the average blind internet user:
"This is not a thread about imbalance, it's an hypothesis buildt around facts that could be very well explained otherwise.
Ceci n'est pas un thread au sujet de problèmes d'équillibrage, mais une hypothèse construite autour de faits qui auraient très bien pu être expliqués autrement.
Esto no es un thread a proposito de problemas de equilibrio, pero una hipotesis que podria perfectamente ser explicada de otra manera.
Dieses thread bafasst sich nicht mit Ausgleichprobleme, sondern mit einem Annahme, die dürch anderen Mitteln expliziert geworden konnte*."
*+ Show Spoiler +Help me correct my mistakes!
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I was once a high Diamond Terran.
Facing the need to focus more on studies and other private aspects of my life, I thought, well, let's make an effort and get to Masters, then leave until HotS comes out. I was already on the verge of Master league, facing better players with a good W/R by playing 1 or 2 hours a day.
But it never happened.
+ Show Spoiler +Now I'm Zerg, and it's much, much more fun, but this is another topic.
This very frustrating thing led me to think: why? I had good builds, good mechanics, never supply blocked, upgrades, bla-bla-bla... but my APM never rises above 70 and, most importantly, I don't have any accuracy at all, misclicking here and there to death. (Bear in mind that when I say "good" it's "good compared to my opponents".) And I REFUSE to train my hand speed and hand-to-eye coordination, much like I REFUSE to spend 100€ on an expensive gaming mouse and keyboard. I simply have other things to do.
However, this is fine when playing Zerg: I mostly a-click, micro a little, all good. After having changed a week ago, I got up to Plat level, and I guess that within 2 more weeks I'll be at the same level I was after 5 Terran months. But this doesn't mean that Zerg is OP, or that it's easier; it's just easier on the hand skill.
I hear that many Diamond Terrans are fustrated. Why? I feel there is a skill treshold there. You can either marine split or you can't; you can either engage a Protoss army or you can't. While I find that both other races have a steeper learning curve, I feel that Terran is pretty EZ PZ during Gold, Plat, Diamond... then it rises back up abruptly.
[list]
[*]TvZ: I simply play mech because marine splits are simply not for me. The sad thing is that Terran has a HUGE potential, I mean, marines are insane. You always see pro matches where a desperate Zerg throws 20 Slings and 5 Banes at a simple Marine 1-1 drop, and the drop simply deals with it with sufficient micro. I, on the other hand, will never be able to do that. Same with Ghost Snipe micro + Tank target fire + Marine split + stutter step + Thor target fire, I just can't do that all at once.
[*]TvP: TvP micro has a lot of stupid in it. Yes, stupid. Many people argue that it's more micro dependent on the Terran's side, and it's partially true. Both demand the same kind of maestria in terms of micro, handling spellcasters. But the Terran has to do this stupid thing: kiting. Stutter step is silly. It's not even that much skill-demanding. It's mostly click-click-click-click (production) click-click-click... It's not actual skill, it's rough and plain APM. But my TvP wasn't bad thanks to gimmicky mass-air builds, but that's niché at best.
[*]TvT: hard on the nerves. So many possibilities. Most versatile matchup in my opinion, but 40 minutes macro games where one positioning mistake can cost you the game is just insane. However, ideally, all matchups should be as dynamic (but maybe less volatile).
I had 6 TvTs in a row once, true story. Almost shot a bullet through my head.
In short, Terran is a balance headache. Nerf Marines? Lower leagues loose. Better Marines? MKP and MVP win every single tournament by 2 Raxing with their feet. Less micro-demanding? Same players can now do 8 drops at once and still hold the front. More micro demanding? Protoss can a-click to victory.
Should Protoss also have a stupid mandatory micro mechanic? Sure, it's more demanding but I don't think it makes the game more interesting. I honestly don't really see a solution, and the problem isn't that big either.
So, yeah, I'll never invest more than 2 hours a day in Starcraft. Other things to do, even other games to play! So I guess I'm better off steering away from Terran. What are your thoughts?
Edit: here is the picture of a cat to stop the Internet hate machine.
![[image loading]](http://dogandcat.com/images/cat2.jpg)
 
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lol terran is the easiest race why would you make them easier
User was warned for this post
User likes using blue text over red
But green is nice too
Sorry i was just kidding around, accept my sincerest apologies.
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Every race has to micro to a degree. When a player has exemplary micro, it stands out because their one marine can kill 5 drones after killing 2 lings. Or Hero's hero stalker(s). If you want to be really good, micro the shit out of your units. You can settle for being just ok. It's up to you.
It's not only diamond terrans. I'm sure diamond players of all races are frustrated, because as you get better, the things you have a habit of doing just don't work.
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You were high Diamond as Terran and your APM was bellow 70, sounded like you really worked hard for your ladder rating 
EDIT: you are a prime example why some people feel Terran is OP, just have to put it out there.
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If you refuse to train your hand and eye speed, you won't ever be good. Switching races won't help, if you play zerg you will learn how "awesome" the melee unit AI is in SC2, and your low apm will make it impossible to play properly. Zerg requires you not even look at battles because you MUST inject at home or else you lose the game. And wait till you play baneling wars in ZvZ, lol, good luck with your $5 mouse.
It's the same for all races, in spite of what you say. Practice makes perfect, and no practice makes chobo. The grass always looks greener on the other side, but underneath its the same for everyone: dirt.
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On January 09 2012 07:10 Endymion wrote:
lol terran is the easiest race why would you make them easier
Never said you should change them...
Edit: yes, maybe it is the same for every Diamond out there, that's why I switched to check it out  .
And yes I do have a 70 average APM, it's not that low, but it doesn't allow many things! And I'll never have the game sense Goody has...
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The best thing about Terran in the later leagues is that the micro potential is needed since the Terran units while super amazing (due to their super high dps and staying potential with the medivacs) in medium groups vs same amount of similar tiered units of the other races. They die in large engagements in a flash without some good micro or running like a bitch (Bio forces I mean MMM mostly). Mech has some staying potential but if suprised or just slightly out of position everything dies instantly and you lose in the next five minutes. Besides after plat everyone has some pretty good macro might not be perfect but they should be able to keep up instead of getting supply block at 32 and die from not having enough stuffs
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On January 09 2012 07:13 darkscream wrote:
If you refuse to train your hand and eye speed, you won't ever be good. Switching races won't help, if you play zerg you will learn how "awesome" the melee unit AI is in SC2, and your low apm will make it impossible to play properly. Zerg requires you not even look at battles because you MUST inject at home or else you lose the game. And wait till you play baneling wars in ZvZ, lol, good luck with your $5 mouse.
It's the same for all races, in spite of what you say. Practice makes perfect, and no practice makes chobo. The grass always looks greener on the other side, but underneath its the same for everyone: dirt.
I don't think you need a gaming mouse or keyboard to be good...
Jjakji was playing on a pretty regular logitech ball mouse at the GSL finals.
He won.
BW pros use a DT-35.
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Here's my take on it (ex high diamond terran, now I'm like upper mid after I took a bit of a laddering break):
Terran stopped being "fun" for me. I just don't have fun playing Terran. I have above 100 apm average every single game (I was averaging in the high 120s/130s today) and I just don't like it. My mechanics are better than my opponents' (if you look at my SQ vs. their SQ, my SQ is around 90ish and theirs is in the 60s-70s usually, refer to what the fat's do you macro like a pro thread), my micro is better than my opponents' (this is somewhat subjective so in my opinion I have better micro, especially than the protoss players I face), but I just keep losing. I make constant workers, I spend my money, I don't get supply blocked, I don't understand. Especially vs. protoss. I just can't win.
I never feel in control of the game, I never feel like I can just go expand or send my army to the middle of the map, or anything. I just feel behind all of the time. My decision making is not very good, but I just can't ever win and it frustrates me. I can win sometimes, but I was dominating ladder. A lot of things made this game enjoyable for me, but now I feel like it's more of a chore than a fun game. Of course, Terran isn't THAT under powered. I'm sure i could point out a ton of mistakes in my play, but I just feel like it's much easier when I play the other races.
I can beat high platinums when I play zerg (sometimes the occasional diamond), but I hate ZvP/ZvZ. Protoss just isn't fun for me (the units are just boring tbh and they are uninteresting). I <3 TvZ though. I wish that I could only play TvZ and just learn that only.
W/e just my rant. I am switching to random in HotS though. I'm determined to get better, learn all the races, and start over from scratch. Maybe I'm just mentally f-ing myself though...
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If your mouse accuracy is terrible, make sure you have mouse acceleration off and try lowering your sensitivity. You shouldn't need to specifically train accuracy, although I do like clicking scvs quickly at the start of the game when there's nothing else to do anyway. For Terran specifically, a little "work" with micro trainer maps goes a long way, but you can say that for all races. I do think Terran is mechanically more demanding than other races, but I don't think it's a problem. The new units in HotS may change this too.
As for super expensive gaming equipment, all the korean bw progamers used the cheapest mice and keyboards available. I'm glad peripheral companies sponsor tournaments, but $100 gaming keyboards are about as useful for your performance as $100 gold-plated HDMI cables are for your tv picture quality.
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This is completely false. I got into masters through pure macro, compared to all my opponents shitty macro. Even in masters, there are many games I will win just because I have more "stuff" than my opponent. I have pretty terrible micro but really the only micro you need if focus firing banes with tanks and landing decent emp. Other than that, it is all about micro and handling harass correctly
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On January 09 2012 07:28 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:
Terran stopped being "fun" for me. I just don't have fun playing Terran. I have above 100 apm average every single game (I was averaging in the high 120s/130s today) and I just don't like it. My mechanics are better than my opponents' (if you look at my SQ vs. their SQ, my SQ is around 90ish and theirs is in the 60s-70s usually, refer to what the fat's do you macro like a pro thread), my micro is better than my opponents' (this is somewhat subjective so in my opinion I have better micro, especially than the protoss players I face), but I just keep losing. I make constant workers, I spend my money, I don't get supply blocked, I don't understand. Especially vs. protoss. I just can't win.
130 in-game APM and 90 SQ should have you knocking on the door of GM, honestly. Not saying you're exagerrating your performance, but I'd be interested in seeing a replay or two to see how you could possibly be losing in diamond league.
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On January 09 2012 07:46 ShadowDrgn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:28 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:
Terran stopped being "fun" for me. I just don't have fun playing Terran. I have above 100 apm average every single game (I was averaging in the high 120s/130s today) and I just don't like it. My mechanics are better than my opponents' (if you look at my SQ vs. their SQ, my SQ is around 90ish and theirs is in the 60s-70s usually, refer to what the fat's do you macro like a pro thread), my micro is better than my opponents' (this is somewhat subjective so in my opinion I have better micro, especially than the protoss players I face), but I just keep losing. I make constant workers, I spend my money, I don't get supply blocked, I don't understand. Especially vs. protoss. I just can't win. 130 in-game APM and 90 SQ should have you knocking on the door of GM, honestly. Not saying you're exagerrating your performance, but I'd be interested in seeing a replay or two to see how you could possibly be losing in diamond league.
It's really easy to have that score actually. I can post a replay if you don't believe me, I just have to go searching through my replays 
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On January 09 2012 07:10 Endymion wrote:
lol terran is the easiest race why would you make them easier
dumbest post on the entire internet
yes, im serious
Terran was the hardest race in BW and still is in SC2
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On January 09 2012 08:02 Pulimuli wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:10 Endymion wrote:
lol terran is the easiest race why would you make them easier dumbest post on the entire internet yes, im serious Terran was the hardest race in BW and still is in SC2
Sure, that's why the major party of top players are not terrans. It's only hard if you have 60apm and yet you can mech.
On topic, I don't know why you complain you couldn't make it to master, if you don't even try to improve.
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I very much agree with you. Terran may be the strongest race, but at lower levels (I am a top 8 platinum player) it is INCREDIBLY hard to play
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TLADT24920 Posts
Interesting OP. I was plat terran and was slowly making my way up to diamond back in season 3 before I went on hiatus. I enjoyed playing terran and I love TvZ. It's such a dynamic matchup because of how fast the match can switch in favour of one player or another. I think if I could just play one MU, I would constantly play TvZ lol. I do have to mention that I started playing the game as Zerg in season 1 eventually started playing as random and made my way to gold in season 2 before changing to Terran and getting promoted to Plat in season 3.
I have to agree that micro and positioning plays a major role in all Terran MUs. The constant kiting by MMM in TvP can become annoying after a while and a mistiming can mean that your units skip a chance to fire. Once chargelots are out on the field with storms, it becomes that much harder to deal with imo not to mention the chargelot+archon combo is pretty scary when you take into account how much hits you need to deal with a chargelot or archon. I still have to incorporate ghosts in my game though and I recently changed my control groups so I'm sure things will improve. As for TvZ, marine splits, stutterstepping, focus firing banes with tanks, etc... are really important for the matchup and are a requirement in almost every game.
I find that as Zerg, once I defend the first attack and make it mid game, more times than not I'll win and it's just so relaxing to play. I don't need to worry about constantly going through control groups and making units because everything is build from the hatchery(ies) and you train yourself to constantly spam the hatchery to check for larvae to make units, not to mention spawn larvae can be done using the minimap so you don't even need to look at your base if you want to unless you need to make a structure. Spreading creep isn't that bad either but that's just me.
I don't like Protoss much lol even though some of their units are interesting to me. I prefer playing Terran and Zerg to Protoss(hate colossi, almost never make them and roll with gateway units). All the races have their different styles which are suited to different players. Some find that Zerg is tough to play, others think that Terran is harder, etc... The skill gap that you mention is one that I talked about with a friend a while back. It seems once you hit diamond, you need to be able to multitask well enough to make that jump to Masters as Terran because as Terran, the ball is in your court to constantly harass Protoss or Zerg otherwise you'll lose the game. Nice to know you are enjoying the game again
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I have largely the same experience, except I haven't switched to Zerg [although I have thought about doing it for awhile] as a diamond terran. Of course, I'm not making a comment on balance on whole, but Terran does require particularly uniquely high levels of micro in engagements. In TvP it's not just stutter step - it's the simultaneous stutter step, EMP/snipe, viking targeting, and stimming. My friend who switched from Protoss to Terran had PvT as his strongest matchup, but is repeatedly getting frustrated by TvP, and from watching his replays, it's mostly from his difficulties in these engagements.
Of course, the difference discussed in your OP is also a bit exaggerated because diamond half a year ago is weaker than diamond now, skill levels are just increasing in general. I made it to diamond with 70 apm, but I've increased to 200+ now and am only slightly competent, no one with 70 apm [according to the old counters] can survive as a terran now. If you have 70 apm according to the patched counter, your real apm is probably more like 120ish which is fine imo.
On January 09 2012 08:11 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 08:02 Pulimuli wrote:On January 09 2012 07:10 Endymion wrote:
lol terran is the easiest race why would you make them easier dumbest post on the entire internet yes, im serious Terran was the hardest race in BW and still is in SC2 Sure, that's why the major party of top players are not terrans. It's only hard if you have 60apm and yet you can mech. On topic, I don't know why you complain you couldn't make it to master, if you don't even try to improve.
You do realize this "major part of top players being terran" are all Koreans? This fact kind of proves that it takes far greater skill to unlock their potential, if it was so easy then foreigners would pick them up/dominate with them just as much.
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United Kingdom20278 Posts
You dont need $100 equipment to do good. You should have at least looked into mouse accuracy and basic settings etc before going through such extremes and switching races. Also, platinum league offrace is pretty bad i think for someone who wanted to be masters, there is just such a gap between them.
If you say things like "I just can't do that all at once" then you will never improve at the game, at least not on any serious level.
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On January 09 2012 07:10 Endymion wrote:
lol terran is the easiest race why would you make them easier
You wouldn't say this if you played terran. Anyhow the OP has it spot on, getting to Master as terran was a complete nightmare and I can say the skill gap is the biggest jump you will find in this game. I went from some pretty bad kiting to marine splits multi pronged harass all game and the rest. Anyways even in Master its a pain and I feel like zerg provides the answer I need, excess apm can get soaked up by creep spread and injects, and there is much much less micro involved.
The biggest key is I don't feel like I have to do damage, I can just sit there all game and as the game goes on the advantage keeps doing in my favor as you can instant remax as long as your macro doesn't slip with injects.
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I agree with the OP - Terran was fun for me until I started trying to push into Masters. I just went about 50/50 in Diamond league as Terran for quite a long time. Actually, I found my TvP was very good, and my TvT was about 50/50, but my TvZ was really bad. Eventually, I grew frustrated and tired of watching my carefully crafted armies get torn apart by banelings and roaches if I ever tried to push in with marine+tank, and I also hated it when the zerg got too strong and could just broodlord/ultra a-move into my army and win. I constantly felt that Z was overpowered in diamond league and low masters, simply due to the fact that I didn't have the multitasking ability to keep up with them. And as the saying goes, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em - so I did.
Now I play Zerg, and it's so much easier. I play less than I used to, but whenever I play, I find the game a lot less difficult. Unless I get cheesed or make a terribly big mistake, I win about every game (except for ZvZ because I still don't understand that matchup :p) and I expect to make Masters sometime really soon.
In short, I feel that Terran is the hardest race for someone of my skill level to play. In bw I thought Terran was impossible. I tried them again in sc2, and though I made a lot of progress with them, eventually I had to give up because I didn't have the talent or the patience to improve with them. Now I've switched to Zerg, and it's a lot easier.
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On January 09 2012 09:07 CakeSauc3 wrote:
I agree with the OP - Terran was fun for me until I started trying to push into Masters. I just went about 50/50 in Diamond league as Terran for quite a long time. Actually, I found my TvP was very good, and my TvT was about 50/50, but my TvZ was really bad. Eventually, I grew frustrated and tired of watching my carefully crafted armies get torn apart by banelings and roaches if I ever tried to push in with marine+tank, and I also hated it when the zerg got too strong and could just broodlord/ultra a-move into my army and win. I constantly felt that Z was overpowered in diamond league and low masters, simply due to the fact that I didn't have the multitasking ability to keep up with them. And as the saying goes, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em - so I did.
Now I play Zerg, and it's so much easier. I play less than I used to, but whenever I play, I find the game a lot less difficult. Unless I get cheesed or make a terribly big mistake, I win about every game (except for ZvZ because I still don't understand that matchup :p) and I expect to make Masters sometime really soon.
In short, I feel that Terran is the hardest race for someone of my skill level to play. In bw I thought Terran was impossible. I tried them again in sc2, and though I made a lot of progress with them, eventually I had to give up because I didn't have the talent or the patience to improve with them. Now I've switched to Zerg, and it's a lot easier.
I agree. I'm a top platinum player who is most likely not going to go beyond top/mid diamond level. As such, I often wish I had chosen protoss as my race when it came out. Not because I think it is the strongest race. But because I think it is the easiest race to play at my level, especially for players with fairly low apm.
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I'm a low masters zerg, but I've played a fair bit of random on the ladder mostly last season.
Being zerg, I tend to find protoss much easier to pull off in terms of spending, and using chrono etc, but my forcefields let me down and so I lose a lot due to that (usually don't make many sentries to avoid it) and yet I levelled an account to diamond using protoss.
As terran, I tend to play more "sloppy" ie my money gets super high so I drop a "macro cc" at random and a few more production buildings than I can usually fund, but in general, just because I control my armies ok I tend to win a LOT, though despite this my tvt is terrible (I guess lack of games and game sense?)
I can't tell you which race is easiest, but ofc I find zerg easiest myself, t and p about the same, though I win more pvp than tvt, and I win more tvp (me being t) than pvt (me p) and my tvz/pvz are roughly equal, where I win most pvz if i go for FFE into double stargate, or into a fast upg'd blink stalker push.. I don't really have any BOs as such..
For TvZ I always go reactor hellion into tank push and just keep up pressure constantly while getting more eco and it tends to work fine :s dunno lol
EDIT: In summary, my apm sucks as p and t compared to z, and usually mid 80-90 as z with the new apm system, I find all the races roughly equally easy to control armies (not counting FFs) and macro, perhaps leaning toward p macro being easier?
In the end, it doesn't matter too much which race is easier when you're low master or below, because there are so many mistakes in your play anyway that if you begin to overcome them you'll still get further/promoted. No point talking about things being harder unless you're willing to work on the things you struggle with, i.e mouse control
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I don't see the value of changing when you're a diamond Terran and you deny that to move on you need to practice in the micro department. If you don't want to practice, don't expect to become good with a race.
Edit: I mean, while you acknowledge your speed is off, you don't want to take measurements to fix that. Fine by me but then don't come complaining here when you don't want to learn.
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On January 09 2012 09:10 Khazroul wrote:
I can't tell you which race is easiest, but ofc I find zerg easiest myself, t and p about the same, though I win more pvp than tvt, and I win more tvp (me being t) than pvt (me p) and my tvz/pvz are roughly equal, where I win most pvz if i go for FFE into double stargate, or into a fast upg'd blink stalker push.. I don't really have any BOs as such..
Your comment leads me to believe you are talking about 2 base centric 10-20 minutes games. I am wondering then if others are also basing the difficulty of a race on these types of games. 2 base going into 3 base terran isn't really that much harder then the other races. 3-4+ Terran maxed army and 3-4 base protoss macro games aren't even comparable in terms of the mechanics needed to play them.
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Too many people here with the wrong idea.
If you aren't in masters+, there is no racial imbalance. The players you face will be wildly inconsistant. Since you don't macro perfectly you don't really know what your race is capable of, let alone the enemy's since they may or may not be way better than you. Failing at macro can feel like imbalance (I have to micro so much and he just 1a'd!!!!), but it isn't. It's just your own shortcoming.
Long story short, If the OP posted in the strategy forum with this attitude he'd be laughed out because obviously there are things he could improve but doesn't want to, from his own practice to his equipment. Let him him race switch and find out that he can't be good at that one, either, without any amount of dedication. Has nothing to do with Terran or Zerg or Protoss.
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there is cheap gaming gear.
the keyboard isnt too important (it shouldnt be too hard to press a button, thats all), the mouse is though.
try an logitec mx518 or sth in the cheaper regions, you cannot get great accuracy with a 10 year old wheel mouse.
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If you really feel this way, you should try out the other 2 races. Idk, ANYONE who complains a lot about balance should play the other races once in a while.
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On January 09 2012 10:40 Itsmedudeman wrote:
If you really feel this way, you should try out the other 2 races. Idk, ANYONE who complains a lot about balance should play the other races once in a while.
I did! I play Zerg now.
But I never said I think the game is inbalanced, I'm simply talking about differences between races. To me, Terran has more potential but requires more speed to control well. It is, however a wide and blurry assumption so yes, I would get a lot of crap if I posted it on TL Strat, and rightfully so.
Stutter step being an example among others, it is something that a good player will do as a formality, but it is more difficult to couple it with other things in lower levels. I also believe that it's a dumb mechanic; kind of like inject larva is dumb (there is really no strategy in it, you just have to click click click as much and as often as possible.) in comparison to OCs where you chose between intel, econ or production (yes, I do believe that Terran has the most fun macro mechanics). It's kind of an artificial way to demand more APM: in BW, more APM = multi-pronged attack, sick micro, or even just managing an army correctly, but in SC2 it's more about reflexes and mechanics you're stuck with, as controlling the army is a simple a-click in comparison to BW.
I also didn't say I'm not willing to improve. I'm willing to practice, work my macro, etc, but I don't want to do silly exercises for hand speed or 6 hours of daily Starcraft.
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How is terran "EZ PZ" for gold, plat, and dia players? If anything it should be a lot harder because you can't micro well when your in those leagues so banelings and chargelots+collosus just wreck you...
On January 09 2012 07:13 Integra wrote:You were high Diamond as Terran and your APM was bellow 70, sounded like you really worked hard for your ladder rating EDIT: you are a prime example why some people feel Terran is OP, just have to put it out there.
I've seen master level zergs with subpar 50 apm.
EDIT: they are a prime example why some people feel Zerg is OP, just have to put it out there. (see how silly this sounds, a single master zerg had low apm so I guess that means zerg OP right? = bullshit logic)
On January 09 2012 10:22 darkscream wrote:
Too many people here with the wrong idea.
If you aren't in masters+, there is no racial imbalance. The players you face will be wildly inconsistant. Since you don't macro perfectly you don't really know what your race is capable of, let alone the enemy's since they may or may not be way better than you. Failing at macro can feel like imbalance (I have to micro so much and he just 1a'd!!!!), but it isn't. It's just your own shortcoming.
Long story short, If the OP posted in the strategy forum with this attitude he'd be laughed out because obviously there are things he could improve but doesn't want to, from his own practice to his equipment. Let him him race switch and find out that he can't be good at that one, either, without any amount of dedication. Has nothing to do with Terran or Zerg or Protoss.
If you aren't in masters+ there is no racial imbalance? What? Where'd you get that idea? If two equally skilled gold players 1v1 but one gets units that are x2 stronger or require x2 micro to be as good than the other guy's units then its fair because they arent masters+ so it doesn't affect their gameplay? Really?
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I feel it's EZ PZ because they will face players with the same hand skill. On the other hand, Master Terran requires the ability to make a lot more actions (and I stress the word ability, as any pro player, regardless of the race, has it).
Oh and even though I have a low APM, I think the average in high Diamond is never more than 90-100 so I'm not that far behind (speaking of Terrans, of course).
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On January 09 2012 10:22 darkscream wrote:
Too many people here with the wrong idea.
If you aren't in masters+, there is no racial imbalance. The players you face will be wildly inconsistant. Since you don't macro perfectly you don't really know what your race is capable of, let alone the enemy's since they may or may not be way better than you. Failing at macro can feel like imbalance (I have to micro so much and he just 1a'd!!!!), but it isn't. It's just your own shortcoming.
Long story short, If the OP posted in the strategy forum with this attitude he'd be laughed out because obviously there are things he could improve but doesn't want to, from his own practice to his equipment. Let him him race switch and find out that he can't be good at that one, either, without any amount of dedication. Has nothing to do with Terran or Zerg or Protoss.
OK this is the most common response, however I am afraid you have the wrong idea. IT IS NOT IMBALANCE, it is GAME DESIGN. Because of game design, the jump from diamond/plat to Master and high diamond is much much harder than the other races, simply because as a Terran player your micro/multitask/APM needs to be at a certain level to be in masters or you will simply get crushed by Zergs/Protoss who macro appropriately.
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On January 09 2012 10:22 darkscream wrote:
Too many people here with the wrong idea.
If you aren't in masters+, there is no racial imbalance. The players you face will be wildly inconsistant. Since you don't macro perfectly you don't really know what your race is capable of, let alone the enemy's since they may or may not be way better than you. Failing at macro can feel like imbalance (I have to micro so much and he just 1a'd!!!!), but it isn't. It's just your own shortcoming.
Long story short, If the OP posted in the strategy forum with this attitude he'd be laughed out because obviously there are things he could improve but doesn't want to, from his own practice to his equipment. Let him him race switch and find out that he can't be good at that one, either, without any amount of dedication. Has nothing to do with Terran or Zerg or Protoss.
I don't think you're interpreting the OP correctly. People aren't talking about balance - they're talking about the ease in which a person unlocks the potential of their race. IE - we know the equipment is equal in strength, but some equipment is harder to use.
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From someone who is in Masters with both Protoss and Terran and have a third account at High Diamond playing Zerg, I would say Terran is the hardest to play at high diamond/low masters level. It's actually silly how easy macro as protoss and zerg is compared to terran, though terran doesn't have too hard macro either.
For me Protoss was definitely the easiest race to get into Masters. Basically, as long as you have really solid macro you should have no problem what so ever to get masters with Protoss. The race requires very minor micro and multitasking IF played in a simple and not very demanding way, which is enough to reach masters on EU. However, I found that after reaching mid+ Masters that this changed, suddenly you have to start warp prism harassing to stay in the game, defending 3 drops at once, having perfect force fields and storms etc. At this point I think Protoss becomes one of the hardest races to play.
As for Terran, it wasn't very hard to get into Masters with very macro oriented play either, but it required a lot more micro and build training. Protoss builds are extremely easy to learn and straight forward, while Terran builds tend to have more things to them. The micro and multitasking required is also way waaay harder than for Protoss, things like dropping, splitting, focus firing with tanks, sniping, stutter stepping, emping, leapfrogging tanks and engaging just right is way harder than what Protoss has to do. Terran is by far the easiest race to do stupidly strong all ins with though, lol.
Zerg I would probably say is the hardest race to get masters with (since I haven't made it yet ._.), but that might also be because I don't enjoy the race a lot. Basically just having good macro isn't enough here either, although I do think Zerg has the easiest macro of all races. You just need a ton of knowledge and experience playing zerg, which I don't like. The micro is pretty simple and straight forward as well.
As for apm, my apm is usually:
Protoss: 160-180
Terran: 160-200
Zerg: 200-240
But it's a lot easier to get high apm as zerg since it forces you to do more things (not harder things to do, just more).
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Well I guess certain races could simply be easier for different persons, I will see for myself... however, regarding Zerg's "stuff to do", I find it much more rewarding than Terran's. Denying bases with creep and burrowed lings and spreading creep really gives you a sense of control an brings you that much closer to winning a game...
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"I had 6 TvTs in a row once, true story." - I laughed so hard at this for some reason.
Learning to be fast and to use your hands is just another thing to learn just like a build. You wouldn't say, "Why should I spend my time learning a build?" To get better. If you don't want to get better, carry on just playing for fun.
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This thread is a perfect example of why Ret and Destiny mocked teamliquid strategy and discussion posts on the homestory cup stream.
Everyone wants a reason why they're not pro, or why they're not masters, or why the game is hard for them but seemingly not for others.
Here's a thought:
Perhaps the people you're losing to are just better than you.
I know that's difficult to swallow, but it just might be true.
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On January 09 2012 11:26 hersenen wrote:
If you aren't in masters+ there is no racial imbalance? What? Where'd you get that idea? If two equally skilled gold players 1v1 but one gets units that are x2 stronger or require x2 micro to be as good than the other guy's units then its fair because they arent masters+ so it doesn't affect their gameplay? Really?
What he's saying is that if you are in a league lower than masters, there are fundamental things you are doing poorly that would overcome any kind of minor skill-necessitating gap or imbalance.
When Idra makes a comment that an aspect of ZvT is bullshit or something to that effect, it's within the context of him utilizing close to the full potential of his race, and still falling very short in certain scenarios, or so he feels.
It's wildly inappropriate for a gold league player to make the same claim.
Yes, they are fundamentally correct that there may be an imbalance or something, but it does not affect their ability to move up the ladder, not even close.
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On January 10 2012 03:08 natebreen wrote:
This thread is a perfect example of why Ret and Destiny mocked teamliquid strategy and discussion posts on the homestory cup stream.
Everyone wants a reason why they're not pro, or why they're not masters, or why the game is hard for them but seemingly not for others.
Here's a thought:
Perhaps the people you're losing to are just better than you.
I know that's difficult to swallow, but it just might be true.
It's a possibility, and this is why I'm trying out Zerg to see if it's true or not. I stated it as an hypothesis.
Also, I specifically did NOT post this on the strat forums but I see that it wasn't appreciated. Oh internet!
It's not only about my frustration, but about Terran players switching races and/or leaving the ladder (many people have observed this) in respectable numbers these past 3 or 4 months.
Sometimes people on the internet don't read what you write, and I feel like my head is imploding and exploding at the same time, scattering my brain through the universe in a mysterious and yet very simple fashion at high speed, unveiling our existance to every form of life out there.
Then I'm better and they they're all "tl;dr lol" again, and so my brain... etc.
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On January 10 2012 03:08 natebreen wrote:
This thread is a perfect example of why Ret and Destiny mocked teamliquid strategy and discussion posts on the homestory cup stream.
Everyone wants a reason why they're not pro, or why they're not masters, or why the game is hard for them but seemingly not for others.
Here's a thought:
Perhaps the people you're losing to are just better than you.
I know that's difficult to swallow, but it just might be true.
+1
Every player/race has its own difficulties that players should overcome, otherwise where would be the fun??
Maybe in TvP you need to stutter step, but in PvT if I don't have good FF or AoE when you poke with stim I'm dead (for example).
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On January 10 2012 03:40 Mythal wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 03:08 natebreen wrote:
This thread is a perfect example of why Ret and Destiny mocked teamliquid strategy and discussion posts on the homestory cup stream.
Everyone wants a reason why they're not pro, or why they're not masters, or why the game is hard for them but seemingly not for others.
Here's a thought:
Perhaps the people you're losing to are just better than you.
I know that's difficult to swallow, but it just might be true. +1 Every player/race has its own difficulties that players should overcome, otherwise where would be the fun?? Maybe in TvP you need to stutter step, but in PvT if I don't have good FF or AoE when you poke with stim I'm dead (for example).
Please read the words I write. I beg you.
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sounds like you have pre-conceived notions of what you think are worth doing or not doing in starcraft. there is literally no reason to NOT stutter step when it makes terran bio so strong vs protoss/zerg
edit: you think inject larvae is a waste of time? are you for real lmao
This very frustrating thing led me to think: why? I had good builds, good mechanics, never supply blocked, upgrades, bla-bla-bla... but my APM never rises above 70 and, most importantly, I don't have any accuracy at all, misclicking here and there to death. (Bear in mind that when I say "good" it's "good compared to my opponents".) And I REFUSE to train my hand speed and hand-to-eye coordination, much like I REFUSE to spend 100€ on an expensive gaming mouse and keyboard. I simply have other things to do.
like playing sc2? you don't need an expensive keyboard or mouse, you just work on your accuracy and multitasking ability through playing the game more often. this topic really makes 0 sense.
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On January 10 2012 04:41 TylerThaCreator wrote:
sounds like you have pre-conceived notions of what you think are worth doing or not doing in starcraft. there is literally no reason to NOT stutter step when it makes terran bio so strong vs protoss/zerg
edit: you think inject larvae is a waste of time? are you for real lmao
This very frustrating thing led me to think: why? I had good builds, good mechanics, never supply blocked, upgrades, bla-bla-bla... but my APM never rises above 70 and, most importantly, I don't have any accuracy at all, misclicking here and there to death. (Bear in mind that when I say "good" it's "good compared to my opponents".) And I REFUSE to train my hand speed and hand-to-eye coordination, much like I REFUSE to spend 100€ on an expensive gaming mouse and keyboard. I simply have other things to do.
like playing sc2? you don't need an expensive keyboard or mouse, you just work on your accuracy and multitasking ability through playing the game more often. this topic really makes 0 sense.
Again, read the words I write please:
1) I never said you should NOT stuttersept, in fact I said you HAVE TO but that it's dumb since it's clicking very fast with no accuracy requirements at all or any decision-making involved.
2) Yes, Inject larvae is a dumb mechanic. It's obligatory, there's no way around it, you simply have to press a series of buttons as regularly as you can. It could be replaced by... I don't know, typing "Popopopokerface popopokerface" in chat every 45 second to get more larvae. This is why I compared it with OC mechanics, who are much more forgiving and also offer a "smart" way to use them (saving scans, saving Mules for gold, Supply drop in very tight openings...).
3) I am willing to play more often, but I'm not willing to do those silly hand to eye coordination exercices, or practice marine splits on custom maps for hours. I just want to play and watch games, period.
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On January 09 2012 07:07 Kukaracha wrote:
This very frustrating thing led me to think: why? I had good builds, good mechanics, never supply blocked, upgrades, bla-bla-bla...
No you didn't. You probably don't recognize the areas you're falling short in, but they're there. It's not just your dislike of stutter-step.
Do you think stalker/sentry pressure or timings vZ are just A-click? Or that a 6gate can be executed without control? Hell, you don't even have to look away from the battle to do a production round - just hit a barracks key and hold a button. I've played T against master friends, and yes, my infantry control is bad, because I've never had to practice that specific thing - but I could still take games off master Z/P friends through macro, timings, and flailing attempts to spread during battle.
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On January 10 2012 06:06 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:07 Kukaracha wrote:
This very frustrating thing led me to think: why? I had good builds, good mechanics, never supply blocked, upgrades, bla-bla-bla... No you didn't. You probably don't recognize the areas you're falling short in, but they're there. It's not just your dislike of stutter-step. Do you think stalker/sentry pressure or timings vZ are just A-click? Or that a 6gate can be executed without control? Hell, you don't even have to look away from the battle to do a production round - just hit a barracks key and hold a button. I've played T against master friends, and yes, my infantry control is bad, because I've never had to practice that specific thing - but I could still take games off master Z/P friends through macro, timings, and flailing attempts to spread during battle.
On January 10 2012 03:59 Kukaracha wrote:Please read the words I write. I beg you.
I'll help you:
On January 09 2012 11:33 Kukaracha wrote:
On the other hand, Master Terran requires the ability to make a lot more actions (and I stress the word ability, as any pro player, regardless of the race, has it).
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And I completely disagree with that.
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But then, it doesn't have anything to do with timings, or a-clicking (where did I say any race was an a-click race?). Am I even talking about control in general...?
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I'm questioning the assumptions you made at the start of your post - read the part I quoted.
Second, I disagree that master T requires the ability to make more actions. You can achieve the results you say require them without that - by shoring up the other areas of your play. This is where the other things I brought up come into it.
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On January 10 2012 07:32 Dfgj wrote:
I'm questioning the assumptions you made at the start of your post - read the part I quoted.
Second, I disagree that master T requires the ability to make more actions. You can achieve the results you say require them without that - by shoring up the other areas of your play. This is where the other things I brought up come into it.
You took out the part where I say that when I say "good" it's "good compared to my opponents". I do agree that I could simply have a better macro, but then again, I already usually have a good macro compared to my opponent. Logically, one would think, well if I'm better at this, then I should win, but in fact I do not.
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On January 10 2012 03:08 natebreen wrote:
This thread is a perfect example of why Ret and Destiny mocked teamliquid strategy and discussion posts on the homestory cup stream.
Everyone wants a reason why they're not pro, or why they're not masters, or why the game is hard for them but seemingly not for others.
Here's a thought:
Perhaps the people you're losing to are just better than you.
I know that's difficult to swallow, but it just might be true.
Exactly this. The OP is just looking for reasons for his lack of success at the game. Every race has its difficulties, and Terran is most definitely NOT harder. Marine splitting is not very hard to learn, and neither is stutter step.
@OP: You'll be a shitty player until you sort out your attitude. Feel free to tell me to 'please read what I said' like you said to the others, but I did, and there's nothing to be found in your posts but pointless complaining and a lack of understanding of what SC2 is and what it requires.
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I'm really against stereotypes, but this feels like the French arrogance I'm used to from both competitive CS 1.6 and elsewhere.
Everyone here has read what you wrote.
Sometimes the truth is the hardest pill to swallow.
I'm not even going to respond to your posts about stutter step being necessary being a bad thing and larvae inject being obligatory so it's bad.
I mean honestly man?
Think about what you're saying.
You can make units for 50 minerals that can win you the game at lategame, and you're complaining about having to micro them because it doesn't require "decision making."
You can make that argument with any race and any unit. It doesn't mean it holds water.
Stop blabbering and go play 40 games and analyze the replays. You'll be better off for it.
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On January 10 2012 07:46 Swede wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 03:08 natebreen wrote:
This thread is a perfect example of why Ret and Destiny mocked teamliquid strategy and discussion posts on the homestory cup stream.
Everyone wants a reason why they're not pro, or why they're not masters, or why the game is hard for them but seemingly not for others.
Here's a thought:
Perhaps the people you're losing to are just better than you.
I know that's difficult to swallow, but it just might be true. Exactly this. The OP is just looking for reasons for his lack of success at the game. Every race has its difficulties, and Terran is most definitely NOT harder. Marine splitting is not very hard to learn, and neither is stutter step. @OP: You'll be a shitty player until you sort out your attitude. Feel free to tell me to 'please read what I said' like you said to the others, but I did, and there's nothing to be found in your posts but pointless complaining and a lack of understanding of what SC2 is and what it requires.
But don't you see it? The post above is exactly why I feel my point is missed. I say that inject larva is dumb, and people go "aaaw stop crying imba", but that fact is that I'm not criticizing the matchup here, but the CORE MECHANICS.
Not to mention that I'm also crying as a Zerg.
Why? Because Blizzard added artificial difficulty by implementing this shitty reflex that you must have as a Zerg. Yes, inject larva is stupid. How can you even deny it? Let's compare the Queen and OC mechanics:
OC:
- Mule: awesome OP additional worker that can boost your economy. You can save them for when a gold expansion kicks in. You can replace your usual workers with it in the very late game.
- Scan: awesome scouting tool that can give you priceless information if your intuition times it and places it right. Last minute detection. Can be stacked if any DT or Banshee rush is suspected. Can completely deny creep in the late game.
- Supply call: useful last-minute supply depot. Can be used when an opening's timing is very crisp. Can quickly replace lost depots in the very late game. Ideally, you don't need it.
Queen:
- Inject larva: awesome ability that... you actually HAVE to use in a very mechanic way. You have to be consistent through the game. One Queen per Hatchery injecting larva all game. You could train your pet monkey to do it for you with an alarm clock.
- Creep tumor: awesome creep spreading ability, but you also have to do it. It's more forgiving than the previous one. You simply don't do it past a certain stage of the game.
- Transfusion: Useful during very early rushes. Then you don't really use it, except in specific situations.
Am I really the only one who feels that Terran mechanics here are much much more rewarding and dynamic? I mean, I can't train my pet monkey to chose between scanning or Muling or saving energy, but I could train him to inject and spread creep... It's simple and plain APM on the Zerg's part. Boring, too. One could argue that their macro mechanics are very strong, but so are the Terran's, and yet it is much more interesting on the Terran's side.
On January 10 2012 07:51 natebreen wrote:
You can make units for 50 minerals that can win you the game at lategame, and you're complaining about having to micro them because it doesn't require "decision making.
I'm not complainig about having to micro them, Jesus. I already adressed the Marine's strenght in the OP, does anyone read what I write? I'm sincerely feeling quite depressed.
Edit: Also, I'm chilean, not french even though I live in France. But go ahead and stereotype your way to disrespect.
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On January 09 2012 07:43 scarper65 wrote:
This is completely false. I got into masters through pure macro, compared to all my opponents shitty macro. Even in masters, there are many games I will win just because I have more "stuff" than my opponent. I have pretty terrible micro but really the only micro you need if focus firing banes with tanks and landing decent emp. Other than that, it is all about micro and handling harass correctly
i believe this guy
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On January 09 2012 07:10 Endymion wrote:
lol terran is the easiest race why would you make them easier
User was warned for this post
You obviously only played in the beta. Things have changed quite a bit since then.
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So your argument is that the zerg macro mechanic is brainless because it doesn't require you to make decisions with it?
You do know that larvae are used for both offensive unit and drones... forcing the zerg to make choices....
rofl
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On January 10 2012 08:34 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 07:46 Swede wrote:On January 10 2012 03:08 natebreen wrote:
This thread is a perfect example of why Ret and Destiny mocked teamliquid strategy and discussion posts on the homestory cup stream.
Everyone wants a reason why they're not pro, or why they're not masters, or why the game is hard for them but seemingly not for others.
Here's a thought:
Perhaps the people you're losing to are just better than you.
I know that's difficult to swallow, but it just might be true. Exactly this. The OP is just looking for reasons for his lack of success at the game. Every race has its difficulties, and Terran is most definitely NOT harder. Marine splitting is not very hard to learn, and neither is stutter step. @OP: You'll be a shitty player until you sort out your attitude. Feel free to tell me to 'please read what I said' like you said to the others, but I did, and there's nothing to be found in your posts but pointless complaining and a lack of understanding of what SC2 is and what it requires. But don't you see it? The post above is exactly why I feel my point is missed. I say that inject larva is dumb, and people go "aaaw stop crying imba", but that fact is that I'm not criticizing the matchup here, but the CORE MECHANICS. Not to mention that I'm also crying as a Zerg. Why? Because Blizzard added artificial difficulty by implementing this shitty reflex that you must have as a Zerg. Yes, inject larva is stupid. How can you even deny it? Let's compare the Queen and OC mechanics: OC: - Mule: awesome OP additional worker that can boost your economy. You can save them for when a gold expansion kicks in. You can replace your usual workers with it in the very late game.
- Scan: awesome scouting tool that can give you priceless information if your intuition times it and places it right. Last minute detection. Can be stacked if any DT or Banshee rush is suspected. Can completely deny creep in the late game.
- Supply call: useful last-minute supply depot. Can be used when an opening's timing is very crisp. Can quickly replace lost depots in the very late game. Ideally, you don't need it.
Queen: - Inject larva: awesome ability that... you actually HAVE to use in a very mechanic way. You have to be consistent through the game. One Queen per Hatchery injecting larva all game. You could train your pet monkey to do it for you with an alarm clock.
- Creep tumor: awesome creep spreading ability, but you also have to do it. It's more forgiving than the previous one. You simply don't do it past a certain stage of the game.
- Transfusion: Useful during very early rushes. Then you don't really use it, except in specific situations.
Am I really the only one who feels that Terran mechanics here are much much more rewarding and dynamic? I mean, I can't train my pet monkey to chose between scanning or Muling or saving energy, but I could train him to inject and spread creep... It's simple and plain APM on the Zerg's part. Boring, too. One could argue that their macro mechanics are very strong, but so are the Terran's, and yet it is much more interesting on the Terran's side. Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 07:51 natebreen wrote:
You can make units for 50 minerals that can win you the game at lategame, and you're complaining about having to micro them because it doesn't require "decision making. I'm not complainig about having to micro them, Jesus. I already adressed the Marine's strenght in the OP, does anyone read what I write? I'm sincerely feeling quite depressed. Edit: Also, I'm chilean, not french even though I live in France. But go ahead and stereotype your way to disrespect.
Your point isn't missed, it just doesn't exist. If you were being consistent in criticising things that don't require 'decisions' you would end up criticising most things in the game at some point. Decisions only occur in situations where you are not sure which option is more likely to increase your chances of winning. The better you are at the game, the less decision making you actually use (in terms of mechanical things). The choice to MULE or scan becomes obvious. Are you building up an army in your base and are relatively aware of what your opponent is doing? MULE. Are you moving out on the map verse a Zerg who may have burrow? Scan. Is your opponent going banshees while you are 1 rax expanding? Save your energy until you get turrets/a raven up. For a good player, these are not decisions. They are requirements in order to give you the best chance to win. Decisions only exist where there is no clear cut better option.
(don't misunderstand the above paragraph by the way. There is SO much decision making in SC, just the decisions are more abstract the better you are)
Anyway, I think the thing that you misunderstand about Starcraft is that it isn't a game which is purely cerebral. It's not chess. There are things which you just have to do in order to win. Whether or not you agree with that is irrelevant. This IS the game. If you want to be good then you need to accept that marine splitting is probably going to be a necessity, as is stutter step micro. This is why most people are criticising your attitude. It's because you have a fundamental lack of understanding of what the game actually involves, ie that much of the game is physical mechanics, execution - things that don't require any amount of decision making whatsoever.
You can ignore everything I've said and continue on your silly tirade against the core design, but it's never going to change and so it really is a pointless thing to be getting upset about. Either accept what you have to do to get better and do it, or continue to call it 'stupid, artificial difficulty' and never grow as a player. I don't expect you to admit you're wrong in this thread, but just consider what I've said.
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On January 10 2012 09:17 natebreen wrote:
So your argument is that the zerg macro mechanic is brainless because it doesn't require you to make decisions with it?
You do know that larvae are used for both offensive unit and drones... forcing the zerg to make choices....
rofl
Not at all. I say that Zergs are unlucky because their mechanics are as demanding as Terran's but very dull in comparison.
It's as if Terrans had to read Tolkien's LOTR and Zerg have to read a dictionnary. Both will take the same time, but the first book is just so much more interesting.
Swede: well, let me make a BW comparison.
The beauty of BW is that every aspect of it demanded a lot of skill. Controlling a single control group of Dragoons through a bridge demanded as much micro as the management of 6 Barracks. Every micro decision counted heavily. But this was possible at a certain time in the history of videogames. Ergonomic progress would not allow any editor to repeat this experience.
Now take SC2. Much less demanding than BW, right? And yet, many things "artificially" make the game more demanding in terms of hand speed, Injects and Stutter step being two examples.
You say that everything is a reflex at pro level, and it's very true (I actually saw a documentary on this, maybe you've seen it too). However, 99,99% of the community is not pro and enjoys a completely different game. What I dislike about stutter step and injects is that it's a formality through the whole ladder... and it allows no creativity at all, wether in GM or Bronze league.
I will also repeat for the fourth time that I DO accept that stutter step is a necessity - I do accept that there are things in the game that you can't dismiss. This is why I simply switched races instead, because I knew it was a necessity and that I'd rather try other obligations at the moment.
Now, I said (and wrote it in big red letters, too) that I could be wrong, and that I will see this by myself in the following weeks.
I simply don't understand why I get so much shit about being a terrible player, an idiot, an arrogant frenchie after talking about DETAILS, underlining that I, myself, thought of these things as DETAILS, while adding that I could be completely wrong. I try to be tempered and I get the same reactions people get when they rant about "Terran being so OP".
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So you're frustrated because there are basic strategies that are "good" and have been established to be useful?
I'm so confused what your point is.
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On January 10 2012 10:07 natebreen wrote:
So you're frustrated because there are basic strategies that are "good" and have been established to be useful?
I'm so confused what your point is.
Now I'm the one confused, I don't see where you saw this.
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On January 10 2012 09:56 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 09:17 natebreen wrote:
So your argument is that the zerg macro mechanic is brainless because it doesn't require you to make decisions with it?
You do know that larvae are used for both offensive unit and drones... forcing the zerg to make choices....
rofl Not at all. I say that Zergs are unlucky because their mechanics are as demanding as Terran's but very dull in comparison. It's as if Terrans had to read Tolkien's LOTR and Zerg have to read a dictionnary. Both will take the same time, but the first book is just so much more interesting. Swede: well, let me make a BW comparison. The beauty of BW is that every aspect of it demanded a lot of skill. Controlling a single control group of Dragoons through a bridge demanded as much micro as the management of 6 Barracks. Every micro decision counted heavily. But this was possible at a certain time in the history of videogames. Ergonomic progress would not allow any editor to repeat this experience. Now take SC2. Much less demanding than BW, right? And yet, many things "artificially" make the game more demanding in terms of hand speed, Injects and Stutter step being two examples. You say that everything is a reflex at pro level, and it's very true (I actually saw a documentary on this, maybe you've seen it too). However, 99,99% of the community is not pro and enjoys a completely different game. What I dislike about stutter step and injects is that it's a formality through the whole ladder... and it allows no creativity at all, wether in GM or Bronze league. I will also repeat for the fourth time that I DO accept that stutter step is a necessity - I do accept that there are things in the game that you can't dismiss. This is why I simply switched races instead, because I knew it was a necessity and that I'd rather try other obligations at the moment. Now, I said (and wrote it in big red letters, too) that I could be wrong, and that I will see this by myself in the following weeks. I simply don't understand why I get so much shit about being a terrible player, an idiot, an arrogant frenchie after talking about DETAILS, underlining that I, myself, thought of these things as DETAILS, while adding that I could be completely wrong. I try to be tempered and I get the same reactions people get when they rant about "Terran being so OP".
The only reason you see the management of 6 barracks with no multiple building selection as organic to the BW, but inject larvae as artificial to SC2 is because one game came before the other. If Blizzard suddenly decided to remove MBS in HotS wouldn't you call that 'artificially creating difficulty'? Point being that the only distinction between 'artificial skill' and 'actual skill' is in your head. Stutter step and unit splitting both existed in BW too. Was it 'artifically creating difficulty' then?
I understand where you're coming from, but you have to realise that injecting larvae is as inane an action as typing 'popopokerface' or whatever your earlier example was. One is definitely more stupid, but they're both just means to an end.
I'm not calling you an idiot or an arrogant frenchie, though I have said you have a shitty attitude to the game. But the reason people are calling you an idiot is because your whole argument is built on a stack of contradictions. I could use similar argumentation to point to almost any aspect of the game and say that it's 'artificially creating skill', but what does it even mean in practicality? It's just a way of criticising features you don't enjoy rather than realising they're exactly the same as the ones you do enjoy (at the basic level, anyway).
And it's all well and good to say 'I could be completely wrong', but if you're not willing to admit to being wrong then it's a throw-away comment. You might not think that you've been conclusively proven wrong in this thread, and that's totally fine, but just be aware that tacking on 'I could be completely wrong' doesn't add anything to your actual argument. It's something you say as a way of preserving your dignity in case you realise you are wrong later down the track.
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On January 10 2012 10:19 Swede wrote:
The only reason you see the management of 6 barracks with no multiple building selection as organic to the BW, but inject larvae as artificial to SC2 is because one game came before the other.
Exactly. In short, I was hoping they would invent something new.
On January 10 2012 10:19 Swede wrote:
I understand where you're coming from, but you have to realise that injecting larvae is as inane an action as typing 'popopokerface' or whatever your earlier example was. One is definitely more stupid, but they're both just means to an end.
Well this is what I was trying to say, actually. I'm thinking I might just have a very bad english.
However, I think that you might have a point. I won't say that you're right until I see for myself, but I gues that in the end, you're probably right. Even if there is a difference in Terran gameplay, it may be too small to be the real problem.
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On January 10 2012 03:59 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 03:40 Mythal wrote:On January 10 2012 03:08 natebreen wrote:
This thread is a perfect example of why Ret and Destiny mocked teamliquid strategy and discussion posts on the homestory cup stream.
Everyone wants a reason why they're not pro, or why they're not masters, or why the game is hard for them but seemingly not for others.
Here's a thought:
Perhaps the people you're losing to are just better than you.
I know that's difficult to swallow, but it just might be true. +1 Every player/race has its own difficulties that players should overcome, otherwise where would be the fun?? Maybe in TvP you need to stutter step, but in PvT if I don't have good FF or AoE when you poke with stim I'm dead (for example). Please read the words I write. I beg you.
Hey, I'm not hating on you !!
My commentary was more on the lines of these words:
I had good builds, good mechanics, never supply blocked, upgrades, bla-bla-bla... but my APM never rises above 70 and, most importantly, I don't have any accuracy at all, misclicking here and there to death. (Bear in mind that when I say "good" it's "good compared to my opponents".)
I think that saying you are good compared to your opponents but still losing to them is just an incoherence. If you lose some games to a suposedly worse opponent is because he is probably exploiting your deficencies on some aspects (i.e kitting), therefore in my opinion he is better than you. In my opinion you cannot split completely the different aspects of the game (macro, micro, decision making...), and say you are better than others because you excel in one of these aspects.
I hear that many Diamond Terrans are fustrated. Why? I feel there is a skill treshold there. You can either marine split or you can't; you can either engage a Protoss army or you can't. While I find that both other races have a steeper learning curve, I feel that Terran is pretty EZ PZ during Gold, Plat, Diamond... then it rises back up abruptly.
On one thing I can agree with you, and it's that probably there are terrans (maybe you) that were carried up to plat/diamond due to the versatility of their units and mechanics of the terran race. So by exploiting only one of this features lets say flexible macro and mule/scan mechanics, arrived to plat/diamond. There they began to fail because their marine micro was awful. Or the other way around, a terran with insane marine micro but poor macro. (I know it's oversimplified, but I think you get the point)
In my experience as protoss, I had to improve my macro while improving my micro at the same time. I remember when I was a goldie (very bad one), that I never could put a FF well centered on my ramp or I couldn't be aware of the minimap fast enough to deny a MM poke, and I loose LOTS of times to this kind of thing. What I mean is that I had to improve since the "start" map awareness, a bit of hand accuracy, micro, while focusing mostly on my macro.
My point is that I don't think terran is more skill/ability demanding than the other races. Maybe you realize that you require to be complete on other aspects of the game later than zerg/toss players just in order to keep improving.
PS: Red text in spanish should be (translating from your french sentence):
Esto no es un "thread" sobre problemas d'equilibrio, sino una hipótesis construida alrededor de hechos que perfectamente podrían haber sido explicados de otra manera.
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Hmm overall I agree, terran is the hardest race to play, however zerg requires that your very precise. I mean targetting those speedlings while they are moving is a pain in the ass. Protoss however is kinda easy i would think. And imo its kinda a myth that toss is that micro heavy. Forcefields is a pretty low apm skill. However you will need to go back to macro with toss while you as a terran can focus on the battle and macro using control groups.
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EPT
