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Disclaimer for the average blind internet user:
"This is not a thread about imbalance, it's an hypothesis buildt around facts that could be very well explained otherwise.
Ceci n'est pas un thread au sujet de problèmes d'équillibrage, mais une hypothèse construite autour de faits qui auraient très bien pu être expliqués autrement.
Esto no es un thread a proposito de problemas de equilibrio, pero una hipotesis que podria perfectamente ser explicada de otra manera.
Dieses thread bafasst sich nicht mit Ausgleichprobleme, sondern mit einem Annahme, die dürch anderen Mitteln expliziert geworden konnte*."
*+ Show Spoiler +Help me correct my mistakes!
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I was once a high Diamond Terran.
Facing the need to focus more on studies and other private aspects of my life, I thought, well, let's make an effort and get to Masters, then leave until HotS comes out. I was already on the verge of Master league, facing better players with a good W/R by playing 1 or 2 hours a day.
But it never happened.
+ Show Spoiler +Now I'm Zerg, and it's much, much more fun, but this is another topic.
This very frustrating thing led me to think: why? I had good builds, good mechanics, never supply blocked, upgrades, bla-bla-bla... but my APM never rises above 70 and, most importantly, I don't have any accuracy at all, misclicking here and there to death. (Bear in mind that when I say "good" it's "good compared to my opponents".) And I REFUSE to train my hand speed and hand-to-eye coordination, much like I REFUSE to spend 100€ on an expensive gaming mouse and keyboard. I simply have other things to do.
However, this is fine when playing Zerg: I mostly a-click, micro a little, all good. After having changed a week ago, I got up to Plat level, and I guess that within 2 more weeks I'll be at the same level I was after 5 Terran months. But this doesn't mean that Zerg is OP, or that it's easier; it's just easier on the hand skill.
I hear that many Diamond Terrans are fustrated. Why? I feel there is a skill treshold there. You can either marine split or you can't; you can either engage a Protoss army or you can't. While I find that both other races have a steeper learning curve, I feel that Terran is pretty EZ PZ during Gold, Plat, Diamond... then it rises back up abruptly.
[list]
[*]TvZ: I simply play mech because marine splits are simply not for me. The sad thing is that Terran has a HUGE potential, I mean, marines are insane. You always see pro matches where a desperate Zerg throws 20 Slings and 5 Banes at a simple Marine 1-1 drop, and the drop simply deals with it with sufficient micro. I, on the other hand, will never be able to do that. Same with Ghost Snipe micro + Tank target fire + Marine split + stutter step + Thor target fire, I just can't do that all at once.
[*]TvP: TvP micro has a lot of stupid in it. Yes, stupid. Many people argue that it's more micro dependent on the Terran's side, and it's partially true. Both demand the same kind of maestria in terms of micro, handling spellcasters. But the Terran has to do this stupid thing: kiting. Stutter step is silly. It's not even that much skill-demanding. It's mostly click-click-click-click (production) click-click-click... It's not actual skill, it's rough and plain APM. But my TvP wasn't bad thanks to gimmicky mass-air builds, but that's niché at best.
[*]TvT: hard on the nerves. So many possibilities. Most versatile matchup in my opinion, but 40 minutes macro games where one positioning mistake can cost you the game is just insane. However, ideally, all matchups should be as dynamic (but maybe less volatile).
I had 6 TvTs in a row once, true story. Almost shot a bullet through my head.
In short, Terran is a balance headache. Nerf Marines? Lower leagues loose. Better Marines? MKP and MVP win every single tournament by 2 Raxing with their feet. Less micro-demanding? Same players can now do 8 drops at once and still hold the front. More micro demanding? Protoss can a-click to victory.
Should Protoss also have a stupid mandatory micro mechanic? Sure, it's more demanding but I don't think it makes the game more interesting. I honestly don't really see a solution, and the problem isn't that big either.
So, yeah, I'll never invest more than 2 hours a day in Starcraft. Other things to do, even other games to play! So I guess I'm better off steering away from Terran. What are your thoughts?
Edit: here is the picture of a cat to stop the Internet hate machine.
![[image loading]](http://dogandcat.com/images/cat2.jpg)
 
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lol terran is the easiest race why would you make them easier
User was warned for this post
User likes using blue text over red
But green is nice too
Sorry i was just kidding around, accept my sincerest apologies.
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Every race has to micro to a degree. When a player has exemplary micro, it stands out because their one marine can kill 5 drones after killing 2 lings. Or Hero's hero stalker(s). If you want to be really good, micro the shit out of your units. You can settle for being just ok. It's up to you.
It's not only diamond terrans. I'm sure diamond players of all races are frustrated, because as you get better, the things you have a habit of doing just don't work.
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You were high Diamond as Terran and your APM was bellow 70, sounded like you really worked hard for your ladder rating 
EDIT: you are a prime example why some people feel Terran is OP, just have to put it out there.
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If you refuse to train your hand and eye speed, you won't ever be good. Switching races won't help, if you play zerg you will learn how "awesome" the melee unit AI is in SC2, and your low apm will make it impossible to play properly. Zerg requires you not even look at battles because you MUST inject at home or else you lose the game. And wait till you play baneling wars in ZvZ, lol, good luck with your $5 mouse.
It's the same for all races, in spite of what you say. Practice makes perfect, and no practice makes chobo. The grass always looks greener on the other side, but underneath its the same for everyone: dirt.
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On January 09 2012 07:10 Endymion wrote:
lol terran is the easiest race why would you make them easier
Never said you should change them...
Edit: yes, maybe it is the same for every Diamond out there, that's why I switched to check it out  .
And yes I do have a 70 average APM, it's not that low, but it doesn't allow many things! And I'll never have the game sense Goody has...
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The best thing about Terran in the later leagues is that the micro potential is needed since the Terran units while super amazing (due to their super high dps and staying potential with the medivacs) in medium groups vs same amount of similar tiered units of the other races. They die in large engagements in a flash without some good micro or running like a bitch (Bio forces I mean MMM mostly). Mech has some staying potential but if suprised or just slightly out of position everything dies instantly and you lose in the next five minutes. Besides after plat everyone has some pretty good macro might not be perfect but they should be able to keep up instead of getting supply block at 32 and die from not having enough stuffs
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On January 09 2012 07:13 darkscream wrote:
If you refuse to train your hand and eye speed, you won't ever be good. Switching races won't help, if you play zerg you will learn how "awesome" the melee unit AI is in SC2, and your low apm will make it impossible to play properly. Zerg requires you not even look at battles because you MUST inject at home or else you lose the game. And wait till you play baneling wars in ZvZ, lol, good luck with your $5 mouse.
It's the same for all races, in spite of what you say. Practice makes perfect, and no practice makes chobo. The grass always looks greener on the other side, but underneath its the same for everyone: dirt.
I don't think you need a gaming mouse or keyboard to be good...
Jjakji was playing on a pretty regular logitech ball mouse at the GSL finals.
He won.
BW pros use a DT-35.
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Here's my take on it (ex high diamond terran, now I'm like upper mid after I took a bit of a laddering break):
Terran stopped being "fun" for me. I just don't have fun playing Terran. I have above 100 apm average every single game (I was averaging in the high 120s/130s today) and I just don't like it. My mechanics are better than my opponents' (if you look at my SQ vs. their SQ, my SQ is around 90ish and theirs is in the 60s-70s usually, refer to what the fat's do you macro like a pro thread), my micro is better than my opponents' (this is somewhat subjective so in my opinion I have better micro, especially than the protoss players I face), but I just keep losing. I make constant workers, I spend my money, I don't get supply blocked, I don't understand. Especially vs. protoss. I just can't win.
I never feel in control of the game, I never feel like I can just go expand or send my army to the middle of the map, or anything. I just feel behind all of the time. My decision making is not very good, but I just can't ever win and it frustrates me. I can win sometimes, but I was dominating ladder. A lot of things made this game enjoyable for me, but now I feel like it's more of a chore than a fun game. Of course, Terran isn't THAT under powered. I'm sure i could point out a ton of mistakes in my play, but I just feel like it's much easier when I play the other races.
I can beat high platinums when I play zerg (sometimes the occasional diamond), but I hate ZvP/ZvZ. Protoss just isn't fun for me (the units are just boring tbh and they are uninteresting). I <3 TvZ though. I wish that I could only play TvZ and just learn that only.
W/e just my rant. I am switching to random in HotS though. I'm determined to get better, learn all the races, and start over from scratch. Maybe I'm just mentally f-ing myself though...
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If your mouse accuracy is terrible, make sure you have mouse acceleration off and try lowering your sensitivity. You shouldn't need to specifically train accuracy, although I do like clicking scvs quickly at the start of the game when there's nothing else to do anyway. For Terran specifically, a little "work" with micro trainer maps goes a long way, but you can say that for all races. I do think Terran is mechanically more demanding than other races, but I don't think it's a problem. The new units in HotS may change this too.
As for super expensive gaming equipment, all the korean bw progamers used the cheapest mice and keyboards available. I'm glad peripheral companies sponsor tournaments, but $100 gaming keyboards are about as useful for your performance as $100 gold-plated HDMI cables are for your tv picture quality.
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This is completely false. I got into masters through pure macro, compared to all my opponents shitty macro. Even in masters, there are many games I will win just because I have more "stuff" than my opponent. I have pretty terrible micro but really the only micro you need if focus firing banes with tanks and landing decent emp. Other than that, it is all about micro and handling harass correctly
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On January 09 2012 07:28 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:
Terran stopped being "fun" for me. I just don't have fun playing Terran. I have above 100 apm average every single game (I was averaging in the high 120s/130s today) and I just don't like it. My mechanics are better than my opponents' (if you look at my SQ vs. their SQ, my SQ is around 90ish and theirs is in the 60s-70s usually, refer to what the fat's do you macro like a pro thread), my micro is better than my opponents' (this is somewhat subjective so in my opinion I have better micro, especially than the protoss players I face), but I just keep losing. I make constant workers, I spend my money, I don't get supply blocked, I don't understand. Especially vs. protoss. I just can't win.
130 in-game APM and 90 SQ should have you knocking on the door of GM, honestly. Not saying you're exagerrating your performance, but I'd be interested in seeing a replay or two to see how you could possibly be losing in diamond league.
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On January 09 2012 07:46 ShadowDrgn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:28 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:
Terran stopped being "fun" for me. I just don't have fun playing Terran. I have above 100 apm average every single game (I was averaging in the high 120s/130s today) and I just don't like it. My mechanics are better than my opponents' (if you look at my SQ vs. their SQ, my SQ is around 90ish and theirs is in the 60s-70s usually, refer to what the fat's do you macro like a pro thread), my micro is better than my opponents' (this is somewhat subjective so in my opinion I have better micro, especially than the protoss players I face), but I just keep losing. I make constant workers, I spend my money, I don't get supply blocked, I don't understand. Especially vs. protoss. I just can't win. 130 in-game APM and 90 SQ should have you knocking on the door of GM, honestly. Not saying you're exagerrating your performance, but I'd be interested in seeing a replay or two to see how you could possibly be losing in diamond league.
It's really easy to have that score actually. I can post a replay if you don't believe me, I just have to go searching through my replays 
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On January 09 2012 07:10 Endymion wrote:
lol terran is the easiest race why would you make them easier
dumbest post on the entire internet
yes, im serious
Terran was the hardest race in BW and still is in SC2
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On January 09 2012 08:02 Pulimuli wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:10 Endymion wrote:
lol terran is the easiest race why would you make them easier dumbest post on the entire internet yes, im serious Terran was the hardest race in BW and still is in SC2
Sure, that's why the major party of top players are not terrans. It's only hard if you have 60apm and yet you can mech.
On topic, I don't know why you complain you couldn't make it to master, if you don't even try to improve.
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I very much agree with you. Terran may be the strongest race, but at lower levels (I am a top 8 platinum player) it is INCREDIBLY hard to play
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TLADT24920 Posts
Interesting OP. I was plat terran and was slowly making my way up to diamond back in season 3 before I went on hiatus. I enjoyed playing terran and I love TvZ. It's such a dynamic matchup because of how fast the match can switch in favour of one player or another. I think if I could just play one MU, I would constantly play TvZ lol. I do have to mention that I started playing the game as Zerg in season 1 eventually started playing as random and made my way to gold in season 2 before changing to Terran and getting promoted to Plat in season 3.
I have to agree that micro and positioning plays a major role in all Terran MUs. The constant kiting by MMM in TvP can become annoying after a while and a mistiming can mean that your units skip a chance to fire. Once chargelots are out on the field with storms, it becomes that much harder to deal with imo not to mention the chargelot+archon combo is pretty scary when you take into account how much hits you need to deal with a chargelot or archon. I still have to incorporate ghosts in my game though and I recently changed my control groups so I'm sure things will improve. As for TvZ, marine splits, stutterstepping, focus firing banes with tanks, etc... are really important for the matchup and are a requirement in almost every game.
I find that as Zerg, once I defend the first attack and make it mid game, more times than not I'll win and it's just so relaxing to play. I don't need to worry about constantly going through control groups and making units because everything is build from the hatchery(ies) and you train yourself to constantly spam the hatchery to check for larvae to make units, not to mention spawn larvae can be done using the minimap so you don't even need to look at your base if you want to unless you need to make a structure. Spreading creep isn't that bad either but that's just me.
I don't like Protoss much lol even though some of their units are interesting to me. I prefer playing Terran and Zerg to Protoss(hate colossi, almost never make them and roll with gateway units). All the races have their different styles which are suited to different players. Some find that Zerg is tough to play, others think that Terran is harder, etc... The skill gap that you mention is one that I talked about with a friend a while back. It seems once you hit diamond, you need to be able to multitask well enough to make that jump to Masters as Terran because as Terran, the ball is in your court to constantly harass Protoss or Zerg otherwise you'll lose the game. Nice to know you are enjoying the game again
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I have largely the same experience, except I haven't switched to Zerg [although I have thought about doing it for awhile] as a diamond terran. Of course, I'm not making a comment on balance on whole, but Terran does require particularly uniquely high levels of micro in engagements. In TvP it's not just stutter step - it's the simultaneous stutter step, EMP/snipe, viking targeting, and stimming. My friend who switched from Protoss to Terran had PvT as his strongest matchup, but is repeatedly getting frustrated by TvP, and from watching his replays, it's mostly from his difficulties in these engagements.
Of course, the difference discussed in your OP is also a bit exaggerated because diamond half a year ago is weaker than diamond now, skill levels are just increasing in general. I made it to diamond with 70 apm, but I've increased to 200+ now and am only slightly competent, no one with 70 apm [according to the old counters] can survive as a terran now. If you have 70 apm according to the patched counter, your real apm is probably more like 120ish which is fine imo.
On January 09 2012 08:11 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 08:02 Pulimuli wrote:On January 09 2012 07:10 Endymion wrote:
lol terran is the easiest race why would you make them easier dumbest post on the entire internet yes, im serious Terran was the hardest race in BW and still is in SC2 Sure, that's why the major party of top players are not terrans. It's only hard if you have 60apm and yet you can mech. On topic, I don't know why you complain you couldn't make it to master, if you don't even try to improve.
You do realize this "major part of top players being terran" are all Koreans? This fact kind of proves that it takes far greater skill to unlock their potential, if it was so easy then foreigners would pick them up/dominate with them just as much.
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United Kingdom20295 Posts
You dont need $100 equipment to do good. You should have at least looked into mouse accuracy and basic settings etc before going through such extremes and switching races. Also, platinum league offrace is pretty bad i think for someone who wanted to be masters, there is just such a gap between them.
If you say things like "I just can't do that all at once" then you will never improve at the game, at least not on any serious level.
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On January 09 2012 07:10 Endymion wrote:
lol terran is the easiest race why would you make them easier
You wouldn't say this if you played terran. Anyhow the OP has it spot on, getting to Master as terran was a complete nightmare and I can say the skill gap is the biggest jump you will find in this game. I went from some pretty bad kiting to marine splits multi pronged harass all game and the rest. Anyways even in Master its a pain and I feel like zerg provides the answer I need, excess apm can get soaked up by creep spread and injects, and there is much much less micro involved.
The biggest key is I don't feel like I have to do damage, I can just sit there all game and as the game goes on the advantage keeps doing in my favor as you can instant remax as long as your macro doesn't slip with injects.
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EPT
