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I agree with the OP - Terran was fun for me until I started trying to push into Masters. I just went about 50/50 in Diamond league as Terran for quite a long time. Actually, I found my TvP was very good, and my TvT was about 50/50, but my TvZ was really bad. Eventually, I grew frustrated and tired of watching my carefully crafted armies get torn apart by banelings and roaches if I ever tried to push in with marine+tank, and I also hated it when the zerg got too strong and could just broodlord/ultra a-move into my army and win. I constantly felt that Z was overpowered in diamond league and low masters, simply due to the fact that I didn't have the multitasking ability to keep up with them. And as the saying goes, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em - so I did.
Now I play Zerg, and it's so much easier. I play less than I used to, but whenever I play, I find the game a lot less difficult. Unless I get cheesed or make a terribly big mistake, I win about every game (except for ZvZ because I still don't understand that matchup :p) and I expect to make Masters sometime really soon.
In short, I feel that Terran is the hardest race for someone of my skill level to play. In bw I thought Terran was impossible. I tried them again in sc2, and though I made a lot of progress with them, eventually I had to give up because I didn't have the talent or the patience to improve with them. Now I've switched to Zerg, and it's a lot easier.
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On January 09 2012 09:07 CakeSauc3 wrote:
I agree with the OP - Terran was fun for me until I started trying to push into Masters. I just went about 50/50 in Diamond league as Terran for quite a long time. Actually, I found my TvP was very good, and my TvT was about 50/50, but my TvZ was really bad. Eventually, I grew frustrated and tired of watching my carefully crafted armies get torn apart by banelings and roaches if I ever tried to push in with marine+tank, and I also hated it when the zerg got too strong and could just broodlord/ultra a-move into my army and win. I constantly felt that Z was overpowered in diamond league and low masters, simply due to the fact that I didn't have the multitasking ability to keep up with them. And as the saying goes, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em - so I did.
Now I play Zerg, and it's so much easier. I play less than I used to, but whenever I play, I find the game a lot less difficult. Unless I get cheesed or make a terribly big mistake, I win about every game (except for ZvZ because I still don't understand that matchup :p) and I expect to make Masters sometime really soon.
In short, I feel that Terran is the hardest race for someone of my skill level to play. In bw I thought Terran was impossible. I tried them again in sc2, and though I made a lot of progress with them, eventually I had to give up because I didn't have the talent or the patience to improve with them. Now I've switched to Zerg, and it's a lot easier.
I agree. I'm a top platinum player who is most likely not going to go beyond top/mid diamond level. As such, I often wish I had chosen protoss as my race when it came out. Not because I think it is the strongest race. But because I think it is the easiest race to play at my level, especially for players with fairly low apm.
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I'm a low masters zerg, but I've played a fair bit of random on the ladder mostly last season.
Being zerg, I tend to find protoss much easier to pull off in terms of spending, and using chrono etc, but my forcefields let me down and so I lose a lot due to that (usually don't make many sentries to avoid it) and yet I levelled an account to diamond using protoss.
As terran, I tend to play more "sloppy" ie my money gets super high so I drop a "macro cc" at random and a few more production buildings than I can usually fund, but in general, just because I control my armies ok I tend to win a LOT, though despite this my tvt is terrible (I guess lack of games and game sense?)
I can't tell you which race is easiest, but ofc I find zerg easiest myself, t and p about the same, though I win more pvp than tvt, and I win more tvp (me being t) than pvt (me p) and my tvz/pvz are roughly equal, where I win most pvz if i go for FFE into double stargate, or into a fast upg'd blink stalker push.. I don't really have any BOs as such..
For TvZ I always go reactor hellion into tank push and just keep up pressure constantly while getting more eco and it tends to work fine :s dunno lol
EDIT: In summary, my apm sucks as p and t compared to z, and usually mid 80-90 as z with the new apm system, I find all the races roughly equally easy to control armies (not counting FFs) and macro, perhaps leaning toward p macro being easier?
In the end, it doesn't matter too much which race is easier when you're low master or below, because there are so many mistakes in your play anyway that if you begin to overcome them you'll still get further/promoted. No point talking about things being harder unless you're willing to work on the things you struggle with, i.e mouse control
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I don't see the value of changing when you're a diamond Terran and you deny that to move on you need to practice in the micro department. If you don't want to practice, don't expect to become good with a race.
Edit: I mean, while you acknowledge your speed is off, you don't want to take measurements to fix that. Fine by me but then don't come complaining here when you don't want to learn.
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On January 09 2012 09:10 Khazroul wrote:
I can't tell you which race is easiest, but ofc I find zerg easiest myself, t and p about the same, though I win more pvp than tvt, and I win more tvp (me being t) than pvt (me p) and my tvz/pvz are roughly equal, where I win most pvz if i go for FFE into double stargate, or into a fast upg'd blink stalker push.. I don't really have any BOs as such..
Your comment leads me to believe you are talking about 2 base centric 10-20 minutes games. I am wondering then if others are also basing the difficulty of a race on these types of games. 2 base going into 3 base terran isn't really that much harder then the other races. 3-4+ Terran maxed army and 3-4 base protoss macro games aren't even comparable in terms of the mechanics needed to play them.
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Too many people here with the wrong idea.
If you aren't in masters+, there is no racial imbalance. The players you face will be wildly inconsistant. Since you don't macro perfectly you don't really know what your race is capable of, let alone the enemy's since they may or may not be way better than you. Failing at macro can feel like imbalance (I have to micro so much and he just 1a'd!!!!), but it isn't. It's just your own shortcoming.
Long story short, If the OP posted in the strategy forum with this attitude he'd be laughed out because obviously there are things he could improve but doesn't want to, from his own practice to his equipment. Let him him race switch and find out that he can't be good at that one, either, without any amount of dedication. Has nothing to do with Terran or Zerg or Protoss.
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there is cheap gaming gear.
the keyboard isnt too important (it shouldnt be too hard to press a button, thats all), the mouse is though.
try an logitec mx518 or sth in the cheaper regions, you cannot get great accuracy with a 10 year old wheel mouse.
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If you really feel this way, you should try out the other 2 races. Idk, ANYONE who complains a lot about balance should play the other races once in a while.
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On January 09 2012 10:40 Itsmedudeman wrote:
If you really feel this way, you should try out the other 2 races. Idk, ANYONE who complains a lot about balance should play the other races once in a while.
I did! I play Zerg now.
But I never said I think the game is inbalanced, I'm simply talking about differences between races. To me, Terran has more potential but requires more speed to control well. It is, however a wide and blurry assumption so yes, I would get a lot of crap if I posted it on TL Strat, and rightfully so.
Stutter step being an example among others, it is something that a good player will do as a formality, but it is more difficult to couple it with other things in lower levels. I also believe that it's a dumb mechanic; kind of like inject larva is dumb (there is really no strategy in it, you just have to click click click as much and as often as possible.) in comparison to OCs where you chose between intel, econ or production (yes, I do believe that Terran has the most fun macro mechanics). It's kind of an artificial way to demand more APM: in BW, more APM = multi-pronged attack, sick micro, or even just managing an army correctly, but in SC2 it's more about reflexes and mechanics you're stuck with, as controlling the army is a simple a-click in comparison to BW.
I also didn't say I'm not willing to improve. I'm willing to practice, work my macro, etc, but I don't want to do silly exercises for hand speed or 6 hours of daily Starcraft.
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How is terran "EZ PZ" for gold, plat, and dia players? If anything it should be a lot harder because you can't micro well when your in those leagues so banelings and chargelots+collosus just wreck you...
On January 09 2012 07:13 Integra wrote:You were high Diamond as Terran and your APM was bellow 70, sounded like you really worked hard for your ladder rating  EDIT: you are a prime example why some people feel Terran is OP, just have to put it out there.
I've seen master level zergs with subpar 50 apm.
EDIT: they are a prime example why some people feel Zerg is OP, just have to put it out there. (see how silly this sounds, a single master zerg had low apm so I guess that means zerg OP right? = bullshit logic)
On January 09 2012 10:22 darkscream wrote:
Too many people here with the wrong idea.
If you aren't in masters+, there is no racial imbalance. The players you face will be wildly inconsistant. Since you don't macro perfectly you don't really know what your race is capable of, let alone the enemy's since they may or may not be way better than you. Failing at macro can feel like imbalance (I have to micro so much and he just 1a'd!!!!), but it isn't. It's just your own shortcoming.
Long story short, If the OP posted in the strategy forum with this attitude he'd be laughed out because obviously there are things he could improve but doesn't want to, from his own practice to his equipment. Let him him race switch and find out that he can't be good at that one, either, without any amount of dedication. Has nothing to do with Terran or Zerg or Protoss.
If you aren't in masters+ there is no racial imbalance? What? Where'd you get that idea? If two equally skilled gold players 1v1 but one gets units that are x2 stronger or require x2 micro to be as good than the other guy's units then its fair because they arent masters+ so it doesn't affect their gameplay? Really?
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I feel it's EZ PZ because they will face players with the same hand skill. On the other hand, Master Terran requires the ability to make a lot more actions (and I stress the word ability, as any pro player, regardless of the race, has it).
Oh and even though I have a low APM, I think the average in high Diamond is never more than 90-100 so I'm not that far behind (speaking of Terrans, of course).
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On January 09 2012 10:22 darkscream wrote:
Too many people here with the wrong idea.
If you aren't in masters+, there is no racial imbalance. The players you face will be wildly inconsistant. Since you don't macro perfectly you don't really know what your race is capable of, let alone the enemy's since they may or may not be way better than you. Failing at macro can feel like imbalance (I have to micro so much and he just 1a'd!!!!), but it isn't. It's just your own shortcoming.
Long story short, If the OP posted in the strategy forum with this attitude he'd be laughed out because obviously there are things he could improve but doesn't want to, from his own practice to his equipment. Let him him race switch and find out that he can't be good at that one, either, without any amount of dedication. Has nothing to do with Terran or Zerg or Protoss.
OK this is the most common response, however I am afraid you have the wrong idea. IT IS NOT IMBALANCE, it is GAME DESIGN. Because of game design, the jump from diamond/plat to Master and high diamond is much much harder than the other races, simply because as a Terran player your micro/multitask/APM needs to be at a certain level to be in masters or you will simply get crushed by Zergs/Protoss who macro appropriately.
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On January 09 2012 10:22 darkscream wrote:
Too many people here with the wrong idea.
If you aren't in masters+, there is no racial imbalance. The players you face will be wildly inconsistant. Since you don't macro perfectly you don't really know what your race is capable of, let alone the enemy's since they may or may not be way better than you. Failing at macro can feel like imbalance (I have to micro so much and he just 1a'd!!!!), but it isn't. It's just your own shortcoming.
Long story short, If the OP posted in the strategy forum with this attitude he'd be laughed out because obviously there are things he could improve but doesn't want to, from his own practice to his equipment. Let him him race switch and find out that he can't be good at that one, either, without any amount of dedication. Has nothing to do with Terran or Zerg or Protoss.
I don't think you're interpreting the OP correctly. People aren't talking about balance - they're talking about the ease in which a person unlocks the potential of their race. IE - we know the equipment is equal in strength, but some equipment is harder to use.
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From someone who is in Masters with both Protoss and Terran and have a third account at High Diamond playing Zerg, I would say Terran is the hardest to play at high diamond/low masters level. It's actually silly how easy macro as protoss and zerg is compared to terran, though terran doesn't have too hard macro either.
For me Protoss was definitely the easiest race to get into Masters. Basically, as long as you have really solid macro you should have no problem what so ever to get masters with Protoss. The race requires very minor micro and multitasking IF played in a simple and not very demanding way, which is enough to reach masters on EU. However, I found that after reaching mid+ Masters that this changed, suddenly you have to start warp prism harassing to stay in the game, defending 3 drops at once, having perfect force fields and storms etc. At this point I think Protoss becomes one of the hardest races to play.
As for Terran, it wasn't very hard to get into Masters with very macro oriented play either, but it required a lot more micro and build training. Protoss builds are extremely easy to learn and straight forward, while Terran builds tend to have more things to them. The micro and multitasking required is also way waaay harder than for Protoss, things like dropping, splitting, focus firing with tanks, sniping, stutter stepping, emping, leapfrogging tanks and engaging just right is way harder than what Protoss has to do. Terran is by far the easiest race to do stupidly strong all ins with though, lol.
Zerg I would probably say is the hardest race to get masters with (since I haven't made it yet ._.), but that might also be because I don't enjoy the race a lot. Basically just having good macro isn't enough here either, although I do think Zerg has the easiest macro of all races. You just need a ton of knowledge and experience playing zerg, which I don't like. The micro is pretty simple and straight forward as well.
As for apm, my apm is usually:
Protoss: 160-180
Terran: 160-200
Zerg: 200-240
But it's a lot easier to get high apm as zerg since it forces you to do more things (not harder things to do, just more).
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Well I guess certain races could simply be easier for different persons, I will see for myself... however, regarding Zerg's "stuff to do", I find it much more rewarding than Terran's. Denying bases with creep and burrowed lings and spreading creep really gives you a sense of control an brings you that much closer to winning a game...
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"I had 6 TvTs in a row once, true story." - I laughed so hard at this for some reason.
Learning to be fast and to use your hands is just another thing to learn just like a build. You wouldn't say, "Why should I spend my time learning a build?" To get better. If you don't want to get better, carry on just playing for fun.
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This thread is a perfect example of why Ret and Destiny mocked teamliquid strategy and discussion posts on the homestory cup stream.
Everyone wants a reason why they're not pro, or why they're not masters, or why the game is hard for them but seemingly not for others.
Here's a thought:
Perhaps the people you're losing to are just better than you.
I know that's difficult to swallow, but it just might be true.
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On January 09 2012 11:26 hersenen wrote:
If you aren't in masters+ there is no racial imbalance? What? Where'd you get that idea? If two equally skilled gold players 1v1 but one gets units that are x2 stronger or require x2 micro to be as good than the other guy's units then its fair because they arent masters+ so it doesn't affect their gameplay? Really?
What he's saying is that if you are in a league lower than masters, there are fundamental things you are doing poorly that would overcome any kind of minor skill-necessitating gap or imbalance.
When Idra makes a comment that an aspect of ZvT is bullshit or something to that effect, it's within the context of him utilizing close to the full potential of his race, and still falling very short in certain scenarios, or so he feels.
It's wildly inappropriate for a gold league player to make the same claim.
Yes, they are fundamentally correct that there may be an imbalance or something, but it does not affect their ability to move up the ladder, not even close.
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On January 10 2012 03:08 natebreen wrote:
This thread is a perfect example of why Ret and Destiny mocked teamliquid strategy and discussion posts on the homestory cup stream.
Everyone wants a reason why they're not pro, or why they're not masters, or why the game is hard for them but seemingly not for others.
Here's a thought:
Perhaps the people you're losing to are just better than you.
I know that's difficult to swallow, but it just might be true.
It's a possibility, and this is why I'm trying out Zerg to see if it's true or not. I stated it as an hypothesis.
Also, I specifically did NOT post this on the strat forums but I see that it wasn't appreciated. Oh internet!
It's not only about my frustration, but about Terran players switching races and/or leaving the ladder (many people have observed this) in respectable numbers these past 3 or 4 months.
Sometimes people on the internet don't read what you write, and I feel like my head is imploding and exploding at the same time, scattering my brain through the universe in a mysterious and yet very simple fashion at high speed, unveiling our existance to every form of life out there.
Then I'm better and they they're all "tl;dr lol" again, and so my brain... etc.
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On January 10 2012 03:08 natebreen wrote:
This thread is a perfect example of why Ret and Destiny mocked teamliquid strategy and discussion posts on the homestory cup stream.
Everyone wants a reason why they're not pro, or why they're not masters, or why the game is hard for them but seemingly not for others.
Here's a thought:
Perhaps the people you're losing to are just better than you.
I know that's difficult to swallow, but it just might be true.
+1
Every player/race has its own difficulties that players should overcome, otherwise where would be the fun??
Maybe in TvP you need to stutter step, but in PvT if I don't have good FF or AoE when you poke with stim I'm dead (for example).
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EPT
