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On January 07 2012 08:13 Severus_ wrote:
I think goody is awesome player I don't know why you h8 on him ? Yes his mechanics are bad and i think thats why people h8 him becuase he does his thing everytime people know what is coming he is playing bad (mechanic wise) and still wins. I'm pretty sure people who h8 on him now know that if he starts to get serious with his mechanics they have 0 chance vs him. Goody has good decision making, he has smart tactics and he can play long games so you guys h8 on him becuase he has a flaw ? LOL
Hmm. I find your point less convincing given the quantity of numbers where letters should be.
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Maybe people give foreign pros too much credit for their practice and study of opponents before tournaments. Goody has alot of tournament success even when pros know hes coming.
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On January 07 2012 06:29 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 06:22 Jimmy Raynor wrote:
His mechanics may not be good but they are obviously compensated by his decision making/game sense and tactics, That should not happen. Such a huge gap in mechanical ability shouldn't be possible to overcome just by being smart. Then again, that's the game's problem, not Goody's. Which is why I don't hate Goody at all, but I am slowly growing tired of SC2's continuous inability to transition into an RTS where standards exist and more skilled players playing the standard game win most of the time against "unorthodox" stuff.
This man speaks the truth. That Goody still wins games at all is ridiculous.
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People hate on Goody because he's the only pro who is able to be successful with really bad macro.
Most pros try to win by proving they are the better player with macro, micro, and strong standard play. But not Goody. Instead he wins by forcing his opponents to play very awkward non-standard games. Goody has an inherent advantage in those games because he practices them all of the time, but his opponents don't, so he can nab some very surprising victories.
I think game 2 of Goody vs Ret in HS4 was a great example of this. It doesn't matter that your macro and mechanics are awful if you can so thoroughly outsmart your opponent. If Ret had just a little bit more experience against Goody's build, then he could've easily crushed it and taken a ridiculously easy win. But Ret was flustered and failed to respond properly, resulting in a very bizzare (but convincing) win for Goody.
I think pros are especially bothered by Goody because they like to think the better player wins games. But when you're regularly beaten by someone who has such obvious macro and mechanical flaws as Goody, it makes you feel really bad about your own play.
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On January 07 2012 09:53 RoboBob wrote:
People hate on Goody because he's the only pro who is able to be successful with really bad macro.
Most pros try to win by proving they are the better player with macro, micro, and strong standard play. But not Goody. Instead he wins by forcing his opponents to play very awkward non-standard games. Goody has an inherent advantage in those games because he practices them all of the time, but his opponents don't, so he can nab some very surprising victories.
I think game 2 of Goody vs Ret in HS4 was a great example of this. It doesn't matter that your macro and mechanics are awful if you can so thoroughly outsmart your opponent. If Ret had just a little bit more experience against Goody's build, then he could've easily crushed it and taken a ridiculously easy win. But Ret was flustered and failed to respond properly, resulting in a very bizzare (but convincing) win for Goody.
I think pros are especially bothered by Goody because they like to think the better player wins games. But when you're regularly beaten by someone who has such obvious macro and mechanical flaws as Goody, it makes you feel really bad about your own play.
yay someone who thinks instead of raging
i salute you
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On January 07 2012 06:29 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 06:22 Jimmy Raynor wrote:
His mechanics may not be good but they are obviously compensated by his decision making/game sense and tactics, That should not happen. Such a huge gap in mechanical ability shouldn't be possible to overcome just by being smart. Then again, that's the game's problem, not Goody's. Which is why I don't hate Goody at all, but I am slowly growing tired of SC2's continuous inability to transition into an RTS where standards exist and more skilled players playing the standard game win most of the time against "unorthodox" stuff.
I thoroughly disagree with this statement. If you want to watch an RTS where mechanics are everything, then you've already got BW. Its much better designed for that than SC2.
I like the fact that SC2 provides a more "strategical" viewing RTS viewing alternative. I don't want SC2 to be BW with prettier graphics. I watch BW when I want to admire mechanics, I watch SC2 when I want to admire strategy+graphics.
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honestly goody is an inspiration to me. He's not the fastest player and he has pretty bad macro for his level, but it's amazing to see how he can win through pure strategy. Almost every terran player aspires to be MVP or MMA, so they copy the same builds and practice their mechanics. But not goody. He just does his own thing and he owns with it. it is a joy to watch him play.
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His macro play isnt that bad. If he would be so bad at macro he wouldnt be known for his long games. However, terran has now nearly no chance to win a late game anymore. So Sadly we dont see any 2h games from goody in the near future.
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On January 07 2012 10:18 Atrimex wrote:
His macro play isnt that bad. If he would be so bad at macro he wouldnt be known for his long games. However, terran has now nearly no chance to win a late game anymore. So Sadly we dont see any 2h games from goody in the near future.
His macro is horrible. He's at least supply block 3times per game, has 1k in queue most of the time. But his decisions making skills are outstanding and he's a chill guy. Btw he makes mech looks OP in TvZ.
On January 07 2012 10:04 IMoperator wrote:
honestly goody is an inspiration to me. He's not the fastest player and he has pretty bad macro for his level, but it's amazing to see how he can win through pure strategy. Almost every terran player aspires to be MVP or MMA, so they copy the same builds and practice their mechanics. But not goody. He just does his own thing and he owns with it. it is a joy to watch him play.
Almost each top player has his unique style. Only a few (Major?) try to copy Mvp/MMA
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how can doing the same strat at low low low low low apm and winning not be construed as him being bad and the build being good?
if you KNOW what is coming and STILL cant win only 2 viable reasons come to mind
1- goody is so fast and so godamn good that it DOESNT MATTER he wins anyway (unlikely at 60apm)
2- the strat is a joke and easy and not only is it easy but it WINS ANYWAY (more likely)
sorry but goody is a bad player who is doing well since sc2 is so easy. there is a reason the good pros complain a lot and its because sc2 is EASY compared to BW. this is a FACT since they are the same game except in sc2 you can have less apm and macro and micro JUST the same
there is not a single pro who does the same build every game vs every player. goody does. players have styles but NEVER is it the same stuff
goody is why sc2 is so easy and he is also why someone who is better then you doesnt win most of the time. THE BETTER PLAYER SHOULD WIN MOST OF THE TIME but not in sc2
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I could watch Goody vs Nestea in TSL a 100 times and never understand how he won those games. This is not a knock against him, if anything it makes me more his fan. I have no idea how he keeps winning, but it is fun to watch him win.
The casting of Goody vs Nightend was hilarious tonight, highlighting his queued units, 6 supply depots at a time with monster blocks. But somehow he win.
It is silly to say that his macro being bad makes him bad, the same way it is silly to say that his micro being bad is what makes him bad. He wins, therefore he is good, that's all there is to it. Think about how many players and people underperform their potential. Goody overperforms on a consistent basis, how can you hate him for that?
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On January 07 2012 10:21 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 10:18 Atrimex wrote:
His macro play isnt that bad. If he would be so bad at macro he wouldnt be known for his long games. However, terran has now nearly no chance to win a late game anymore. So Sadly we dont see any 2h games from goody in the near future. His macro is horrible. He's at least supply block 3times per game, has 1k in queue most of the time. But his decisions making skills are outstanding and he's a chill guy. Btw he makes mech looks OP in TvZ. Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 10:04 IMoperator wrote:
honestly goody is an inspiration to me. He's not the fastest player and he has pretty bad macro for his level, but it's amazing to see how he can win through pure strategy. Almost every terran player aspires to be MVP or MMA, so they copy the same builds and practice their mechanics. But not goody. He just does his own thing and he owns with it. it is a joy to watch him play. Almost each top player has his unique style. Only a few (Major?) try to copy Mvp/MMA
No, most terrans don't have their own style. They all follow the same trends. Reactor hellion into 3 tank push, gasless 1 rax FE into 3 rax, marauder hellion pushes etc.
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On January 07 2012 10:33 ohokurwrong wrote:
how can doing the same strat at low low low low low apm and winning not be construed as him being bad and the build being good?
if you KNOW what is coming and STILL cant win only 2 viable reasons come to mind
1- goody is so fast and so godamn good that it DOESNT MATTER he wins anyway (unlikely at 60apm)
2- the strat is a joke and easy and not only is it easy but it WINS ANYWAY (more likely)
sorry but goody is a bad player who is doing well since sc2 is so easy. there is a reason the good pros complain a lot and its because sc2 is EASY compared to BW. this is a FACT since they are the same game except in sc2 you can have less apm and macro and micro JUST the same
there is not a single pro who does the same build every game vs every player. goody does. players have styles but NEVER is it the same stuff
goody is why sc2 is so easy and he is also why someone who is better then you doesnt win most of the time. THE BETTER PLAYER SHOULD WIN MOST OF THE TIME but not in sc2
Define "better player".
If you define better as related to winning games, then you're wrong (by definition).
If you define better as unrelated to winning games, then you're trying to tell me that something unrelated to winning should affect winning. What??
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On January 07 2012 10:51 Hypertension wrote:
I could watch Goody vs Nestea in TSL a 100 times and never understand how he won those games. This is not a knock against him, if anything it makes me more his fan. I have no idea how he keeps winning, but it is fun to watch him win.
The casting of Goody vs Nightend was hilarious tonight, highlighting his queued units, 6 supply depots at a time with monster blocks. But somehow he win.
It is silly to say that his macro being bad makes him bad, the same way it is silly to say that his micro being bad is what makes him bad. He wins, therefore he is good, that's all there is to it. Think about how many players and people underperform their potential. Goody overperforms on a consistent basis, how can you hate him for that?
To be fair, NesTea had the third game sewn up before he went crazy and started making horrible decisions. Shades of Huk vs. NesTea in the GSL...
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GoOdy is so succsessful because most players arent god enough to overcome his strategic abilities. A player with GoOdys knowledge and game sense and high apm would be gamebreaking.
Btw its kind of sad that ppl complain about GoOdys build which must be overpowered as hell while very good players dont even give him a chance. Sure he recently won against a lot of koreans and a lot of top foreigners but when he meets top level koreans he doesnt stand a chance.
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On January 07 2012 11:48 IMoperator wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 10:21 sAsImre wrote:On January 07 2012 10:18 Atrimex wrote:
His macro play isnt that bad. If he would be so bad at macro he wouldnt be known for his long games. However, terran has now nearly no chance to win a late game anymore. So Sadly we dont see any 2h games from goody in the near future. His macro is horrible. He's at least supply block 3times per game, has 1k in queue most of the time. But his decisions making skills are outstanding and he's a chill guy. Btw he makes mech looks OP in TvZ. On January 07 2012 10:04 IMoperator wrote:
honestly goody is an inspiration to me. He's not the fastest player and he has pretty bad macro for his level, but it's amazing to see how he can win through pure strategy. Almost every terran player aspires to be MVP or MMA, so they copy the same builds and practice their mechanics. But not goody. He just does his own thing and he owns with it. it is a joy to watch him play. Almost each top player has his unique style. Only a few (Major?) try to copy Mvp/MMA No, most terrans don't have their own style. They all follow the same trends. Reactor hellion into 3 tank push, gasless 1 rax FE into 3 rax, marauder hellion pushes etc.
An opening isn't a style, gasless 1rax FE into 3raxes has been used at the highest level by only a few terran.. let me explain you with a few exemples in TvZ because you took these openings:
ThorZaIN does some micro intensive openings or greedy openings, as most terrans do, however there is only one spoon terran.
Kas will just do a powering build (get a lot of infrastructure early on) in 90% of his game
Bomber is an aggressive player, and he'll do a lot of straght up pushes.
Sc is the only terran who just attack and rally everything toward the zerg base in the mid game.
Mvp does greedy builds and his really cost-efficient (Mvp trade mark in every match-up)
MMA is MMA, he's going to harass with drops.
GoOdy mechs. Everygame. But his openings are known: some kind of reaper into: bfh, 2 ports banshee, straight up macro if gets and early lead with his reaper. Or he does his hellion/marine/medivac push like in the game 3 against Nestea @TSL.
He follows his own early game plan, but even standard play has so much subtle variations that there isn't a way to play. If y ou talk about a reactor hellion FE you can do: 1rax bunker rush, 4 or 6 hellions, more hellions, a fast 3rd, an elevator play, a banshee follow up, a 2 tank push, a 3 tank push, those two with two or three raxes, you can go 3 factory and mech... It's so wide open (and imo partly explain why hellions are a standard atm) that you can't say everybody does the same thing because nobody does everything and people always prefer some kind of opneing leading to their confort zone.
On January 07 2012 11:59 Tppz! wrote:
GoOdy is so succsessful because most players arent god enough to overcome his strategic abilities. A player with GoOdys knowledge and game sense and high apm would be gamebreaking.
Btw its kind of sad that ppl complain about GoOdys build which must be overpowered as hell while very good players dont even give him a chance. Sure he recently won against a lot of koreans and a lot of top foreigners but when he meets top level koreans he doesnt stand a chance.
GoOdy's TvZ builds are extremely abusives (which is a good thing) so it's really hard for the zerg to be prepared for everything (game 2 against ret show this) because he exploits zergs weaknesses really well and you can't be prepared for everything without having 0 chance in a macro game. Then the fact that he pushes always at the good timing in TvZ is mind blowing.
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On January 07 2012 08:02 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 06:29 Talin wrote:On January 07 2012 06:22 Jimmy Raynor wrote:
His mechanics may not be good but they are obviously compensated by his decision making/game sense and tactics, That should not happen. Such a huge gap in mechanical ability shouldn't be possible to overcome just by being smart. Then again, that's the game's problem, not Goody's. Which is why I don't hate Goody at all, but I am slowly growing tired of SC2's continuous inability to transition into an RTS where standards exist and more skilled players playing the standard game win most of the time against "unorthodox" stuff. It's a STRATEGY game. There's nothing wrong with being able to have some success with good strategies and average mechanics. And let's be realistic, it's not like he's not beating top pros like Mvp, DRG, or Leenok. If it's true that some 'pros' like Morrow are talking trash after losing to him... well that just says alot about their own skill level doesn't it?
Agreed. Why shouldn't good strategy be rewarded in a STRATEGY game? Also I meant that I saw Morrow posting about goody in the live report thread about homestory cup not that he is trash talking after losing him.
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Goody is very good strategically at a strategy game.
However, his ability to perform repetitive menial tasks is poor, people hate on him because of this.
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the people arguing that sc2 is what makes goody good are retarded, he was successful in broodwar with terran/protoss with the same mechanics he has now.
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I've never understood why everyone thinks so much more highly of good mechanics than good strategy and thinking. Is winning because the player was producing constantly and not getting supply blocked really more impressive than a player winning because of tactics and decision making?
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EPT
