The past few days, I have been thinking of all kinds of things, including culture, what it means to be human, the extent of moral relativism, and why books are so... great. This is my thought process:
|| Comparing to other types of media. Have you ever played a video game which immersed you? To the extent that you were not aware of the real world? I have not. Even through the most immersive games, which for me are probably the ezio-era assassins creed games, I was constantly aware that I was on the outside looking in. Video games are simply not up to the standard, yet.
Films are definitely more immersive. For an hour or two, they can make the lines between story and reality fuzzy. Especially the more recent films, with less "unrealism" to break the 4th wall. However, their problem is more to do with the physicality of it. Films are currently unsuitable for viewing for much longer than 2 hours. The cinema setting is the best for immersion, but also the worst as you are surrounded by other people. With greater technology, films will start to be as good as books.
Music is certainly an abstract way of telling a story. Often, the best musical stories are not told literally, but are more open to imagination, just like a book. It takes more, for me anyway, to become immersed in music, than a book, or even a film. But it can certainly happen. Furthermore, listening to music needs no special environment, and very cheap apparatus. It's good, but not quite as good as a book.
|| Why is immersion good? To make myself clear, I mean it as the process in which you detach from reality, and the medium of the story becomes your temporary reality. Some people would say that it's just good to forget about this world, maybe adding that "it's a bad place". But that's surely pessimism. The more I thought about it, the more I realised that I don't know why immersion was good. I just know that it's something that I want my media to give me.
|| More tangible benefits of books. I personally think that having a child read, and learn to enjoy reading, is by far the best thing for their cognitive development. Reading after all is just (structured) imagination, and that can be had without books. But they make it inevitable. I know that the more I read in the past, the cleverer I would feel in comparison to my peers.
So.. anybody feel differently? I know that some people just don't like books. It confuses me, so I would definitely like to hear about it.
I don't like reading "long" books, I find it hard to concentrate or to feel immersed to them at all. I will eventually get bored and lose interest almost instantly.
I do enjoy shorter types of literature, "Candide" by Voltaire is the first that comes to mind.
Anyways, I actually think that it actually depends on the person, somebody might feel more immersed while watching "Metropolis", others will feel immersed by playing any Elder Scrolls game and others will feel immersed while listening to their favourite Album.
There are a ton of things I would like to say but I simply can't find a way to articulate it in an understandable way
I've definitely slipped into the world of Morrowind more than I care to admit. I'd say on some levels it's even more immersive than a movie or book because you are personally controlling the action.
Books are good. Very good. Books can do things that movies, music, and games cannot. There are also things which movies, music and games can do which books cannot. I don't know if immersion is the word I would use. I think all those mediums are capable of telling an incredible story. A movie can show you colours and music at the same time in a way that a book never could, and thru that create an incredible meaning. Likewise, a book forces you to use your imagination, creates meaningful ambiguities and choices that a movie can't. There is fun that can be had with words that is limited in a movie.
Yet, to defend books, I would say that of all mediums it has the greatest collection of truly incredible works. Movies are young. If you love movies you'll watch all the good ones and eventually have to tolerate mediocrity and cliches. If you read just books it's doubtful you'll live long enough to read all that the greatest literature has to offer...
Yeah I don't know. I like reading but it's just about the least immersive experience for me. Turning pages and the left-to-right and up-down motion of reading breaks it all for me.
Seems subjective to me. Immersion and "getting detached from the world" or whatever - it just isn't my cup of tea. I mean, I guess it can be good but that's not how I would judge a media.
On December 30 2011 06:05 ZaplinG wrote: I've definitely slipped into the world of Morrowind more than I care to admit. I'd say on some levels it's even more immersive than a movie or book because you are personally controlling the action.
That's another story.. ahem... altogether. The second aspect of my love of reading is that I have to interpret the author's words, and not change them. That's why playing a game is more fun. But it has never been immersive, or even emotional for me.
Maybe this has something to do with different styles of learning? i.e learning by doing, by seeing, by hearing etc?
I love books. Currently I am reading His Dark Materials: The Subtle Knife. Found myself reading 80 pages in what felt for me, like 2 minuttes. I came in this trance like state, where It didn't feel like I was reading, it felt like there was a story told and shown before me in my head. Books are epic and when you read you can be caught in this trance like state where you are in your own universe. If you don't read already, try finding a book you find interesting and then read it. If you still don't like reading, don't. People are mostly lazy when it comes to reading, considering movies take a lot shorter to experience.
That's how I feel too. I have read for 10 hours straight before, not even realising that time passed. Unfortunately, it means that an 800 page £15 book lasts two days at most...
On December 30 2011 06:26 Ghostcom wrote: Have you played F.E.A.R. or Amnesia?
That's how I feel too. I have read for 10 hours straight before, not even realising that time passed. Unfortunately, it means that an 800 page £15 book lasts two days at most...
On December 30 2011 06:26 Ghostcom wrote: Have you played F.E.A.R. or Amnesia?
Nope
I dare you to play those 2 games (Amnesia being the must-play of the 2) and tell me that games can't make you forget the world around you - ideally you should play it late evening/night when it is dark without any lights on.
But overall I think you are correct - I also enjoy books a great deal more than games, though I have to read it in paperform and not some electronic format.
You read a book and you experience one thing: the text. You watch a movie and you are experiencing music, sights, voices, possibly subtitles.
How can you even compare an obsolete media like books to films or video games? It sounds like you just hate new things and prefer the simpler things. Lots of people hate new, more complex things I guess but it is a problem, not something to brag about.
Books are ok for the most part. I just prefer video games to reading usually because I can get more immersed in it.
Video games can be very immersive. Couple months ago I played through Penumbra: Black Plague in the dark with headphones. I have never had a movie or book come close to scaring me as much as that.
I have played games that felt as in depth and immersed? as you feel about books. I believe this is simply a problem you have (and many people most likely) due to being used to one medium (books) and not being able to immerse yourself in another.
I disagree with your idea of immersion. I don't think it necessary at all to be honest. My experiences and thoughts in this "world" are what give context and appreciation for what I read. I can never truly become immersed in a book anymore then I could forget who I am in reality. This may be good for you, but I think it could lead to your problems with other types of media that you struggle to immerse yourself in. You lose appreciation for Art, Music, and other mediums because you cannot do the same thing with them, that you do with books.
I also think that the written word is very difficult to understand which is why I think books can be difficult to understand on a truly fundamental level (as far as what the author was trying to convey). If you cannot understand what the author is saying completely, then you will always have something lost in translation that prevents true immersion (in my opinion at least).
I don't know what moral relativism has to do with reading though. I think that moral relativism is a lazy attempt at a solution to the problem of human morality across cultures and through time and I don't put any real stock into it (that is to say, I don't think morality is a dependent of your society and cultural beliefs and practices)
P.S. I may have appeared that I don't like reading or think it shouldn't be done a lot. This is not the case if it looks that way. I read a lot and am always encouraging others to do so, this was just my thoughts on the whole idea of immersion through different mediums.
Alas, couldn't find the Moby Dick bit but enjoyable none the less.
I love reading. With regards to these various mediums: film, gaming, reading, I think that in many ways the degree of reward is equal to the degree of investment. A book, even a novella, and relative to film in this case, occupies the reader for a substantial amount of time. He invests himself in the work and thus is acutely sensitive of its influence on him. True, one can decide that he disliked the novel after finishing it, but the very act of reading it through elicits an opinion regardless.
In my experience, gaming occasions a different type of critical analysis than reading does.
On December 30 2011 06:12 Tomazi wrote:
The second aspect of my love of reading is that I have to interpret the author's words, and not change them. That's why playing a game is more fun. But it has never been immersive, or even emotional for me.
This is a good point. I find gaming immersive certainly, but here i am more conscious of my participation in the game (how it plays) rather than my reception of its particular qualities or faults. In general, when i read i am critical of the writing itself, and not of my own involvement in the piece.
I've immersed myself with games and I have been doing so for 15-20 years now but no where near the extent of books. I get so sucked in to books, even bad stories. I have a crazy imaginations and I take my time, reading and taking in all the details.
I don't read that much but I read thousands of manga chapters every month and a couple of fantasy books a year. Manga doesn't work as well to immerse me but does a decent job.
The only books recently to have me reading nonstop are the "A Song of Ice and Fire" by George R.R. Martin and the "Kingkiller Chronicles" by Patrick Rothfuss.
I get lost in those books until I turn the last page.
I personally have been immersed by books, movies, music, and video games. If I were to choose the best out of these mediums, it would be books. The reason for it is that they develop your imagination the most. There is a freedom in creating the appearance of the characters, and the world presented in a book. When your imagination is really deep you can be immersed by any kind of mediums, if they have this core that lets you fill the world presented with your imagination. But by far the story that had immersed me the most is from a video game - Planescape: Torment. If you haven't played it so far you should love it, the story relies strongly on one's imagination (a lot of reading).
On December 30 2011 07:58 SCPlato wrote: I have played games that felt as in depth and immersed? as you feel about books. I believe this is simply a problem you have (and many people most likely) due to being used to one medium (books) and not being able to immerse yourself in another.
I disagree with your idea of immersion. I don't think it necessary at all to be honest. My experiences and thoughts in this "world" are what give context and appreciation for what I read. I can never truly become immersed in a book anymore then I could forget who I am in reality. This may be good for you, but I think it could lead to your problems with other types of media that you struggle to immerse yourself in. You lose appreciation for Art, Music, and other mediums because you cannot do the same thing with them, that you do with books.
I also think that the written word is very difficult to understand which is why I think books can be difficult to understand on a truly fundamental level (as far as what the author was trying to convey). If you cannot understand what the author is saying completely, then you will always have something lost in translation that prevents true immersion (in my opinion at least).
I don't know what moral relativism has to do with reading though. I think that moral relativism is a lazy attempt at a solution to the problem of human morality across cultures and through time and I don't put any real stock into it (that is to say, I don't think morality is a dependent of your society and cultural beliefs and practices)
P.S. I may have appeared that I don't like reading or think it shouldn't be done a lot. This is not the case if it looks that way. I read a lot and am always encouraging others to do so, this was just my thoughts on the whole idea of immersion through different mediums.
Moral relativism is completely off-topic, just something I was thinking about before I wrote this. I do play a lot of games. I have been playing games since the n64. Likewise with films, I probably have 50 of them on these hard drives alone. And I do get into them, but the said limitations of films mean that they are not as much, in any sense .
Maybe you're right though, maybe books have ruined other mediums for me. But I genuinely feel bad when people just look at a book and see text. When you truly read a book, you won't even notice the text.
Books are great. I love both books and video games, but for me at least, books have provided a richer experience for my imagination. The games I play are more of a workout for the analytical side of my brain. I'm reading sci-fi and fantasy, and playing RTS and the occasional RPG, so I could see how things could be completely different for someone with other reading/gaming preferences.
When I get tired of the limits of storytelling within games I pick up a book. The scope of a book is only limited by an author's imagination and ability to put it down on the page, whereas games have to deal with playability and budgets for coding and art as well as marketability. Sometimes I just want something cool to happen without having to kill 926 lesser kobolds and having to backtrack to check every chest in a dungeon. OTOH, sometimes I want to create and play a character inspired by something I've read.
Recent SFF favorites: Shadow and Claw, Gene Wolfe Hyperion, Dan Simmons Silently and Very Fast, Catherynne M. Valente
My latest one was the inheritance cycle by Chris Paolini. His over-descriptiveness can sometimes be jarring, but I would call it and say it's better than LOTR
You read a book and you experience one thing: the text. You watch a movie and you are experiencing music, sights, voices, possibly subtitles.
How can you even compare an obsolete media like books to films or video games? It sounds like you just hate new things and prefer the simpler things. Lots of people hate new, more complex things I guess but it is a problem, not something to brag about.
Someone obviously hasn't read a good book in a while. I can agree with the author of the OP. If you have a good book you get so absorbed into it that you don't even realize that you're looking in on it. I never feel that way with video games and rarely on movies, regardless of the technology and new developments in entertainment. I think books are great and when I sometimes have to force myself to read. I feel smarter every time I do, lol. Maybe it's just me but aside from just the enjoyment of reading, reading just makes me feel more intellectual.
I've found myself immersed in books, music, video games, and films throughout my lifetime. My most powerful experiences were as follows:
Books: When I was 8 the Harry Potter books started being released. After some initial skepticism, I started consuming them voraciously and couldn't wait for the next. I would turn out all the lights in my room and light some candles on my desk, adding to the feeling. I would get lost in the books and finished each in a night, two at most due to school the next day. This happened again when I discovered the Earthsea series, as well as with 1984 a year later. I haven't read much fiction since, due to a broadening interest in video games, music, and movies which gave me the same immersed feeling, but more powerfully so as well as an increasing disdain for the act of reading as studies became more difficult.
Video games: Baldur's Gate II was my first truly immersive gaming experience. I put over a thousand hours into it and various mods. It also sparked an interest in scripting as I began to learn about how the AI worked, and broadened my understanding of computers as I looked deeper into the underpinnings of the program and how it worked with my OS. Later on, Arcanum did the same, as well as SW:KotOR 1&2.
Music: The first time I ever tried marijuana, I sat and listened to Herbie Hancock's Head Hunters all the way through. Absolutely mind-blowing and immersive to a level I didn't think was possible. I began to fund my own music-immersion through learning to play the guitar, and had many a wonderful musical orgasm both with and without the use of drugs.
Movies: Someone mentioned being immersed in Metropolis earlier in the thread. That is very much me. I loved movies like Metropolis, Akira, the Samurai X OVAs. Later on I used to just bask in the atmosphere that Cowboy Bebop created.
So really, I've had very similar experiences with many different mediums. The common denominator always being loss of time and sense of self as I was carried through whichever world I was enjoying at the time. I've found that achieving immersion requires quieting any sense that isn't directly fueling the experience. My using candles only during Harry Potter sessions for instance. As Herbie Hancock massaged my ears, I kept my eyes closed. This rule can bring me to near-fully immersed levels every time provided there isn't something else in my life bothering me, such as money problems.
On December 30 2011 05:47 Tomazi wrote: The past few days, I have been thinking of all kinds of things, including culture, what it means to be human, the extent of moral relativism, and why books are so... great. This is my thought process:
|| Comparing to other types of media. Have you ever played a video game which immersed you? To the extent that you were not aware of the real world? I have not. Even through the most immersive games, which for me are probably the ezio-era assassins creed games, I was constantly aware that I was on the outside looking in. Video games are simply not up to the standard, yet.
Star starcraft star craft? Broodwar?
I like reading because it isn't very hurried. When you skip something you can go back a few paragraphs and reread so that you make sure you understand something. It's a relaxing type of entertainment.
On December 30 2011 05:47 Tomazi wrote: The past few days, I have been thinking of all kinds of things, including culture, what it means to be human, the extent of moral relativism, and why books are so... great. This is my thought process:
This is the core of the OP, or what I agree with anyway.
Games are great and all but as I have said again they are popcorn quality. When is the last time that a starcraft match made you think about our society as ''1984'' has? Exactly, never. Not that I blame the games, their very nature restricts them. There are ofc some games like Braid or The Void which present the player all the topics that a book could, with enough detail as well. But we see such games once every three years or so while quality books are being published all the time.
I would get completely immersed in Oblivion (for the PC with lots of mods). I don't know what it was about that game, but I could start playing and forget that I was sitting on my bed with a laptop. Next thing I knew it was 3 AM. Maybe it was the environment, I really love medieval fantasy.
I think a big part of what makes some books so great is that they inspire emotion, or make you realizes something fundamental. One year in school I had to read The Book Thief. It is a good 550 pages, and I had not started the day before it was due. I started in the afternoon and read until around 3-4 AM. For the first 500 pages I was completely aware of how unhappy I was staying up so late to read this book. Basically.... + Show Spoiler +
The book is about a little girl in a small town in Germany during world war II. The book is 500 pages of telling about her life then the author has the town bombed by the allies and everyone in her life dies. It is super fucking sad. It is the only book that has ever made me cry.
It taught me a very important lesson, there is a REALLY GOOD REASON why we can't just bomb Iraq (my idea at the time I read the book) and be done with it. Don't judge me, I was young when I read it and didn't realize that, you know, human life is important. The point is, without any immersion, it is one of the best books I have ever read and I will never forget it.
I like books, I should read more.
Edit: (forgot a tie in point) Music can also inspire emotion. So it can also be quite powerful if you are in the right mood.
I would say music is more powerfully immersive. As far as lasting impact though I think books have the upperhand. Reading a lengthy book requires a lot of time and concentration invested, so it tends to stay with you long after you are done. I'm grateful my Mom instilled into me early on a joy in the written word. It's given me a lot of pleasure throughout my life, and it's a cheap, portable hobby to indulge in. It makes school a hell of a lot easier too when you can read and write with speed and accuracy. A lot of tests come down to reading comprehension as much as knowledge of the material.
A lot of books are amazing and reading a lot is important, but as far as immersion goes reading is not the only thing that I can get immersed in. I do have trouble with most movies but a lot of games give me the same immersion as reading.
You read a book and you experience one thing: the text. You watch a movie and you are experiencing music, sights, voices, possibly subtitles.
How can you even compare an obsolete media like books to films or video games? It sounds like you just hate new things and prefer the simpler things. Lots of people hate new, more complex things I guess but it is a problem, not something to brag about.
It isn't just about what you experience.. it's about what you interpret. A scene, a dialogue, an action can be interpreted in more ways than you, I, or anyone can count. Also the fact that the process of sharing ideas in a book is a lot more efficient than a movie production (sometimes hundreds of people, millions of dollars).
Personally, my imagination is more preferable over some others interpretations. No one could ever make a movie, song, or series that was better than the act of reading/interpreting Wizard's First Rule. Goes for most books that were made into movies, in fact. There are a few exceptions out there, like Misery, Lord of the rings trilogy, and others I can't think of at the moment.
So, yeah, that's how you compare an "obsolete" media form to it.
This is not a debate about whether books are good or not, but about if you get immersed into a book or not.
I for one do so. I read River God by Wilbur Smith. Stuffed a good weekend. Started reading on a Friday night about 7.00 and finished the book about 3.00 the following Sunday morning. Didn't put it down unless I went to the fridge or bathroom. I'm an avid reader and get totally immersed in a good book. 'specially fantasy & sci-fi. Prob why I like to play SC2.
You read a book and you experience one thing: the text. You watch a movie and you are experiencing music, sights, voices, possibly subtitles.
How can you even compare an obsolete media like books to films or video games? It sounds like you just hate new things and prefer the simpler things. Lots of people hate new, more complex things I guess but it is a problem, not something to brag about.
Watching may help you absorb more information, but reading leaves more room for imagination and interpretation, which are very good for brain development.
I love books so much, I'm currently reading a bunch of stuff by piers anthony. His style isn't the kind that puts me in awe and wonder like asimov or something, but it's so damn entertaining. I suppose I can understand how some people can get bored when they only read at like 200wpm or something, but seriously books allow for so much imagination. I hate that movies create the picture, sounds, etc for me I love creating all my proprioceptive and motor knowledge from my own mental simulations, AMAZING.
Yay books, everyone should read books. Boo people that never do
EPT
