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In Defense of Close Spawns

Blogs > forelmashi
Post a Reply
forelmashi
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
421 Posts
December 26 2011 18:42 GMT
#1
While the move to avoid imbalanced and unbalanced close spawns with short rush distances is indisputably correct, the present wending towards locked cross spawns is unnecessary and ill-advised. In cross spawn, players may begin apart, but subsequent expansions must be made towards the opponent, whereas in close spawn, expansions are made further away from the opponent as the game progresses. Thus not only is this variability and dynamic lost in locked maps, but the desire for long, interesting, balanced games has not necessarily been satisfied.


- Avid Fan

*
OmniEulogy
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada6592 Posts
December 26 2011 18:47 GMT
#2
Although I can kind of see where you are coming from... I'm not really sure what map there is currently in the ladder pool where you are forced to take a base that is too insecure due to spawning cross positions. It sounds kinda like any 1v1 map... yeah You'll eventually have to expand closer to your opponent.
LiquidDota Staff
Najda
Profile Joined June 2010
United States3765 Posts
December 26 2011 19:15 GMT
#3
What map has locked cross spawns? A lot of maps also have the option for close air (or something similar) where your expansions are getting slightly further away from the opponent.
pyaar
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States423 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-26 20:38:18
December 26 2011 19:19 GMT
#4
disregard this
TylerThaCreator
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States906 Posts
December 26 2011 19:27 GMT
#5
On December 27 2011 04:19 pyaar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2011 04:15 Najda wrote:
What map has locked cross spawns? A lot of maps also have the option for close air (or something similar) where your expansions are getting slightly further away from the opponent.


Xel'Naga Caverns
Arid Plateau

Arid Plateau was just added this season. Personally I think the map is okay. I agree with the OP somewhat: Scrap Station was a really cool map that I think could have worked with a little more tweaking.


Xel'Naga Caverns, wha'?


I think what the OP is referring to as locked cross spawns are MLG maps such as MLG Antiga Shipyard which only has cross positions.
aka SethN
SigmaoctanusIV
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States3313 Posts
December 26 2011 20:26 GMT
#6
Actually the reason we need locked cross spawn is because the maps are poorly designed look at the maps in the teamliquid contest they really don't need lock positions because they were designed well enough to not have it. The only 4 player map I can say this to is Tal'Darim all the other maps would perform better with locked spawns.

Also for your last point some expos have to be risky to take, you have to have dominate map control, to take a map and make risky moves that's how you get ahead.
I am Godzilla You are Japan
pyaar
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States423 Posts
December 26 2011 20:38 GMT
#7
On December 27 2011 04:27 TylerThaCreator wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2011 04:19 pyaar wrote:
On December 27 2011 04:15 Najda wrote:
What map has locked cross spawns? A lot of maps also have the option for close air (or something similar) where your expansions are getting slightly further away from the opponent.


Xel'Naga Caverns
Arid Plateau

Arid Plateau was just added this season. Personally I think the map is okay. I agree with the OP somewhat: Scrap Station was a really cool map that I think could have worked with a little more tweaking.


Xel'Naga Caverns, wha'?


I think what the OP is referring to as locked cross spawns are MLG maps such as MLG Antiga Shipyard which only has cross positions.


oops, you're right.
forelmashi
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
421 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-26 20:44:06
December 26 2011 20:38 GMT
#8
On December 27 2011 05:26 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
Actually the reason we need locked cross spawn is because the maps are poorly designed look at the maps in the teamliquid contest they really don't need lock positions because they were designed well enough to not have it. The only 4 player map I can say this to is Tal'Darim all the other maps would perform better with locked spawns.

Also for your last point some expos have to be risky to take, you have to have dominate map control, to take a map and make risky moves that's how you get ahead.

MLG also locks Metalopolis and Antiga Shipyard and Shakuras Plateau, etc. I think this is unnecessary. One of Blizzard's noted concerns from Brood War spectators is the "one battle decides the game" feature of Wings of Liberty. I believe that locking cross spawns encourages this kind of "tug of war" play because the game expands toward your opponent only, with limited tangential components.
TG Manny
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
United States325 Posts
December 26 2011 20:58 GMT
#9
I don't see why they force cross spawns in Shakuras Plateau on those variants. However Antiga shipyard is one of the biggest offenders in my book. If I spawn at 12 and you spawn at three, you have a big disadvantage because I can literally drop harass you and get to your 3rd (which won't be as well defended as a main) and pickup to safety even if you completely dominate air-control and just happen to have your flock of vikings, mutas, or pheonixes scouting around or harassing elsewhere.

I feel that MLG Metalopolis could use close by ground spawns to mix up the matches, while allowing safe expansions to be put up elsewhere for 3rd+ bases. A two base timing by Zerg would be nice to see vT rather than quick 3rding because...well...you can? If you make players fight for a base in-between we will see more "special tactics" of two base all-ins, hidden expansions to the other side of the map, etc. It will make a BO3 on the same map feel like three maps if you spawn in all three types of positions on Metal (close by air, far, and close by ground) because players react to how the map position allows units to be used. (IE early harassment by terran goes bye bye on cross, but he may 3 rax push into your nat in a close by ground position)
Singularity is at hand...
Zanno
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
United States1484 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-26 21:23:50
December 26 2011 21:22 GMT
#10
On December 27 2011 05:58 TG Manny wrote:
I don't see why they force cross spawns in Shakuras Plateau on those variants.
it's because shakuras is symmetrical at a 45 (or whatever it is) degree angle, instead of along an axis

if you spawn close by air, one guy has more dead space around the main to work with for air harass
aaaaa
infinity2k9
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United Kingdom2397 Posts
December 26 2011 22:06 GMT
#11
They should just fix the game balance so being close doesn't completely break matchups.
Silencioseu
Profile Joined June 2011
Cyprus493 Posts
December 26 2011 22:36 GMT
#12
On December 27 2011 07:06 infinity2k9 wrote:
They should just fix the game balance so being close doesn't completely break matchups.

thats actually harder than locking close positions
i kno i r badass no need to repeat
HereBeDragons
Profile Joined May 2011
1429 Posts
December 26 2011 22:54 GMT
#13
A good recent example with close spawns is in the Twitch.tv Invitational Semis: Nerchio vs Kas. Watch that game and tell us how dynamic it was. Painfully dynamic...
2WeaK
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada550 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-26 23:22:32
December 26 2011 23:22 GMT
#14
The one thing I hate about cross positions all the time is that there' no point in making it a 4 player map in the first place, if it's going to be a "1v1" map. It's retarded and counter intuitive. If you want to make the 4 player maps "1v1" maps, just make it 2 player maps, the extra 2 bases are unnecessary.
Mobius_1
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United Kingdom2763 Posts
December 27 2011 00:33 GMT
#15
On December 27 2011 07:36 Silencioseu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2011 07:06 infinity2k9 wrote:
They should just fix the game balance so being close doesn't completely break matchups.

thats actually harder than locking close positions


Plus those fixes can break non-close spawns. Particularly with WG mechanic which basically disregards distance.

Game balance will always be a delicate balance of map balance and unit balance, and there will always be seemingly OP unit and strategies on some maps that will be completely eaten alive on others.

I pity the SC2 balance team sometimes, they have a damn hard job and they get flamed daily for being too rash/too timid/too much/too little/too biased towards P/T/Z/too macro-happy/too cheese-happy.
Starleague Forever. RIP KT Violet~
Scisyhp
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States200 Posts
December 27 2011 01:10 GMT
#16
On Antiga Shipyard, when a terran is top left and zerg top right or terran bottom right and zerg bottom left, the terran can easily PF the gold and push through into the zerg's 3rd. Locking cross spawns prevents this strategy, deemed clearly imbalanced, from being used.
CharlieBrownsc
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada598 Posts
December 27 2011 02:05 GMT
#17
There's a huge flaw in your logic. Taking expansions closer to your opponents is harder, because you have more surface area to cover, and some is near your enemy

But in close spawns, when you take farther expansions, you'll have (bear with me) the same surface area, and the same amount of it close to your enemy (your main base). So although it doesn't become more hectic as the game progresses, it is so much more hectic from the get-go that it doesn't matter

And that is with the assumption that 3rd bases are more vital than your main
SC2 ID: CharlieBrown.318, #1 bitbybit.Prime fan
pdd
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Australia9933 Posts
December 27 2011 12:57 GMT
#18
On December 27 2011 06:22 Zanno wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2011 05:58 TG Manny wrote:
I don't see why they force cross spawns in Shakuras Plateau on those variants.
it's because shakuras is symmetrical at a 45 (or whatever it is) degree angle, instead of along an axis

if you spawn close by air, one guy has more dead space around the main to work with for air harass

Shakuras was only forced close air back when there were rocks into the main around.

Since then tournaments playing the new Shakuras don't force cross position. Even if tournaments do, it has nothing to do with the dead airspace and everything to do with low ground tank pushes.
TI4 Champions: EE-Sama | B7-God | A-God_2000 | Kappa Lord | pieliedie
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