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Disclaimer: The purpose of this post to highlight why Brood War is great. Although I draw a lot of comparisons between SC2 and BW I don't intend this to be a BW vs SC2 debate, I just found it easy to highlight Brood War's greatness by comparing it to something that is supposed to come close to its brilliance (and actually does on many occasions). Brood War holds a special place in my heart whereas Starcraft 2 simply does not. This does not mean I hate Starcraft 2 or have a vendetta against it. And obviously this entire post is just my opinion.
The Dark Cloud
Brood War, apparently, is dying. The MSL, a whole one half of the starleagues, has been discontinued. There are only 8 teams left to battle for the glory of the Proleague title. Player retirements are popping up more regularly and less new blood is being brought into the game than ever before. These are all symptoms of lower viewership and therefore less willingness by sponsors to put money into the game. They're simply not getting the returns on their investments. And who can forget the blow that the pro scene took when 11 players were implicated in the match fixing scandal and had to hang up their mice and keyboards, never to return to the stage as a progamer. And now some Brood War players, from middling A-teamers to legendary bonjwas, have turned their back on this 13 year old game as they are drawn towards the glittering lights of Starcraft 2.
![[image loading]](http://i40.tinypic.com/243kw9c.jpg)
Starcraft 2 doesn't have ALL of the glittering lights! Granted this was from over 5 years ago...
Not only were BW players persuaded by the potential of Starcraft 2, so were sponsors, league organisers, and much weaker players. Blizzard as well knew that they could have Starcraft 2 ride on the back of the colossus that was the legacy of the BW proscene, in order to bring it to great heights. They felt they had to trample on it a bit in order to thrust Starcraft 2 into the limelight, highlighted by the KeSPA/Blizzard/GOM legal battles. So no one can blame these ex-BW players for making the switch, it was an obvious choice for a lot of them.
We're losing Brood War to forces outside of our control, and to forces that might one day match the greatness of what it is helping to destroy. I hope this is the case because Brood War is an amazing game.
The Thing That Only Brood War Has
Brood War is an immensely polished game with great sound effects, graphics (even though I admit they are dated now) and smooth gameplay. There are plenty of other games out there that have these attributes too, but they don't hold a candle to Brood War. Anyone who has been a fan of the game at its highest level for more than a few months will not deny this. Even most newcomers are entranced on their first few viewings of progames, and anyone that puts a bit of time and effort into understanding the game will know how good it is. So what makes Brood War so great? It's something almost undefinable. It has a certain magic.
![[image loading]](http://i44.tinypic.com/250m73c.jpg)
It's basically Warcraft in space! How you so good Starcraft?!
Here is my attempt at explaining why Brood War is so wholesome and marvelous. There are 2 cardinal reasons:
Character
Every time I see a control group of M&M engage a pack of zerglings I can imagine the hardened criminals in their space suits hitting up their stimpacks and feel absolute hatred as their guass cannons rip into zergling flesh. I can imagine the zerglings rip and tear at the fearful marines with their claws, teeth and whatever other razor sharp protrusion they have on their hideous bodies. Every time I see mass archon/zealot engage with ultra/ling, I can imagine the zealots not caring for their own life but just wanting to fight for their people and homeland, alongside these massive balls of psionic energy. Every time I see vultures sneak to a protoss expo and destroy innocent probes, I can imagine those smug little fuckers on their hover bikes being so proud of what they've done, not because they followed an order out, just because they're dicks.
Every single unit in Brood War has character, while still having a use in gameplay (I think the scout is the only unit that is completely useless, apart from as a hilarious BM and tilt-inducing technique!). Every unit is unique but not overly complex. The unit's spells are always congruent with the race and unit while still staying fresh. Even similar spells such as lockdown and maelstrom, or maelstrom and stasis field, have completely different applications and uses.
![[image loading]](http://i40.tinypic.com/wjcsvd.jpg)
Hueeuhaeuhuahe, silly terran, you can't move through stasised units.
These things make Brood War a hell of a lot of fun to watch.
Other RTSes don't have anywhere near what Brood War has in this regard. Even Starcraft 2. It feels like the units in Starcraft 2 were crowbarred into certain roles that each race had requirements of. Oh, terran needs a mech harass unit? Have the hellion! It's like a vulture except it has no mines and is totally one dimensional. Zerg needs a generic damage soaking unit? Have the roach! It's like a hydra except it looks shitty and can't morph into a completely different unit. Starcraft 2 was a lose/lose situation for Blizzard with regards to making it a competitive game. You have to have an almost perfect balance between the 3 races while also maintaining the Starcraft feel. This is absolutely impossible. If you put zerglings and zealots and dragoons and marines and medics in the game and then start tinkering with them slightly, turning medics into medivacs, turning dragoons into stalkers and immortals, you change the unit roles and are therefore left with role holes that you have to bung shut with lacklustre units to stop all the delicious balance from leaking out. So Blizzard were never going to succeed in staying true to Starcraft while also keeping the game balanced.
Serendipity
How was Brood War so balanced then? Can't Blizzard just do what they did with Brood War to make Starcraft 2 magical also? No, because
competitors will always stretch the game to the absolute limit in order to win
Patrol micro is not something Blizzard put in the game. Muta stacking is not something Blizzard put in the game. The razor edge balance of the timings in ZvT, the initial M&M forcing the zerg to sunken up, the mutas keeping the terran contained while zerg takes his third, the push supported by tanks and vessels to pressure the zerg, who hopefully gets his hive tech just in time to thwart him, was something that could never be planned. The recent trend of terrans 1 rax expanding against tosses in response to 12 nexing tosses gaining an eco advantage is not something any game designer could ever foresee.
These are all things the players have come up with in order to get an advantage over his opponent. When Blizzard made Brood War they created a top quality and fun game with great substance. Then they let the players run free with it. Of course it's not as simple as this as there have been plenty of balance changes made by Blizzard over the years. But it's not like what they're doing with Starcraft 2, which is essentially telling people how to play the game. They're narrowing the framework in which the game is balanced, by giving each unit and each action by the player a defined consequence. It was a great chance that Brood War turned out to be so balanced after more than 10 years of thousands of players trying to exploit every single advantage of the 3 races to gain an advantage over another.
![[image loading]](http://i39.tinypic.com/1hqclk.jpg)
Somewhere in that mess there's proof that Brood War is balanced... (from http://mengsk.com/ratings/bw, check it out if you haven't already, it's an interactive graph of players' histories)
I can't even fathom whether a game can even be designed to be as perfectly balanced and interesting, with such a high skill ceiling, as Brood War. It's a mystery to me. A beautiful, serendipitous mystery.
All I know is I'm grateful for it, and all the amazing moments of joy that Brood War has given me as a fan.
The Radiant Silver Lining
Brood War is great and it's dying. All that leaves us with is a chance to enjoy what we have got. We now have a fiercely competed for proleague title, with the disbandment of the teams meaning that most of the teams are stronger than ever (sorry STX). No more ace match means that we get to see lesser known players more often and our favourite players get more of a rest. Combine that with the fact that there's only one individual league to practice for, and we should see a higher quality of games as practice time for each match goes up. I am really fucking hyped for the Starcraft that we have coming up.
And even when Brood War does eventually fade into non existence, we will be able to look back at its rich history, the player rivalries, the starleague storylines, the epic BoX's, the legends and the curses, and we will be able to smile. We'll smile because we were part of it in some way and we took great joy from it at some point. So all I ask is that all fans of Brood War take the positives out of the closing days of the competitive scene. And I ask any potential new comers to give the game a chance to show its magic.
BW4life yo.
Out of interest, how much longer does everyone think the competitive BW scene will last for?
Poll: How much longer will the Koren BW scene last?BW WILL LIVE FOREVER IN MY HEART (101) 77% More than 5 years! (13) 10% Less than 2 years (7) 5% Less than 5 years (5) 4% Less than a year (3) 2% Less than 6 months (2) 2% 131 total votes Your vote: How much longer will the Koren BW scene last? (Vote): Less than 6 months
(Vote): Less than a year
(Vote): Less than 2 years
(Vote): Less than 5 years
(Vote): More than 5 years!
(Vote): BW WILL LIVE FOREVER IN MY HEART
 
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dat stasis on the ramp....
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dat flash chart between jan 09 - jan 11
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Wow, flash and jaedong RAPE.
That graph was so awesome!! It's interesting how you know all the players so well.
"oh, that period of time is from this to that"
Almost as crazy as the barcodes
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Sigh, why'd you have to remind me of savior. Can't believe one of the undisputed bonjwas in the history of BW ended up doing something like that. Really hurt the game hard just to lose a player like him.
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Bwahaha, watching Flash's graph just puts a big smile on my face. :D
I have no idea how long BW will last, but I will definitely remember these years of watching the korean progaming for the rest of my life even if it ends tomorrow. ^__^
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i never really played BW besides single player but it seems wrong if dusting bowder says that they dont care about themes for each races its nice if it emerges though. I think a consistent character for each race is very important for the feeling of the game. It cant be right to design it like "lets try this unit, oh no this would be cool, lets switch this ability to this unit and this over there" as a player you feel this as arbritary less immersive and less credible on a subconscious level.
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
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Great thread, but I have to refute the claim that BW graphics are outdated. This is in no way true. The shapes of units in BW are so distinct and characteristic even in a 200 supply army you can tell everything apart and in a hundred years I won't forget what a Hydralisk looks like. Personally I feel that RTS graphics age better than FPS graphics. If you take a look at Half-Life today it really looks pretty ugly (still a dynamite game, don't get me wrong here) whereas BW still looks great. Maybe it's because you have to use your fantasy a little to really "see" a unit in a heap of pixels. But if that
doesn't look like a Hydralisk to you then nothing does.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
BW has alot more clarity in graphics imo, but that maybe just me.
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To clarify what I said about the graphics, I mean they look old to me. I love them, but I think it does detract from the game's attractiveness to first time viewers.
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On December 12 2011 23:53 surfinbird1 wrote:Great thread, but I have to refute the claim that BW graphics are outdated. This is in no way true. The shapes of units in BW are so distinct and characteristic even in a 200 supply army you can tell everything apart and in a hundred years I won't forget what a Hydralisk looks like. Personally I feel that RTS graphics age better than FPS graphics. If you take a look at Half-Life today it really looks pretty ugly (still a dynamite game, don't get me wrong here) whereas BW still looks great. Maybe it's because you have to use your fantasy a little to really "see" a unit in a heap of pixels. But if that doesn't look like a Hydralisk to you then nothing does.
BW graphics are dated, dont kid yourself. Firstly, almost no gaming company would make a game with sprite based graphics. That shit is the 90s yo. The only exceptions are the ones that make games like Bejewelled. Games like that dont need 3d rendering. Also BW uses indexed images.....there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to use paletted images anymore. Again look at bejewelled, how do you think it looks so beautiful?
Dont get me wrong, BW is a great game but thats no reason to exaggerate its qualities.
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On December 13 2011 00:20 Wohmfg wrote:
To clarify what I said about the graphics, I mean they look old to me. I love them, but I think it does detract from the game's attractiveness to first time viewers.
True, to many people it might not look that good. But do you think that people who look for impressive graphics would appreciate the game's depth if it looked better? I highly doubt it.
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BW love. This brought tears to my eyes.
Loving BW more and more
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On December 13 2011 00:23 SarR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 23:53 surfinbird1 wrote:Great thread, but I have to refute the claim that BW graphics are outdated. This is in no way true. The shapes of units in BW are so distinct and characteristic even in a 200 supply army you can tell everything apart and in a hundred years I won't forget what a Hydralisk looks like. Personally I feel that RTS graphics age better than FPS graphics. If you take a look at Half-Life today it really looks pretty ugly (still a dynamite game, don't get me wrong here) whereas BW still looks great. Maybe it's because you have to use your fantasy a little to really "see" a unit in a heap of pixels. But if that doesn't look like a Hydralisk to you then nothing does. BW graphics are dated, dont kid yourself. Firstly, almost no gaming company would make a game with sprite based graphics. That shit is the 90s yo. The only exceptions are the ones that make games like Bejewelled. Games like that dont need 3d rendering. Also BW uses indexed images.....there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to use paletted images anymore. Again look at bejewelled, how do you think it looks so beautiful? Dont get me wrong, BW is a great game but thats no reason to exaggerate its qualities.
Who cares if "that shit is the 90's yo"? Just because a certain technique is old doesn't mean it isn't aesthetically pleasing anymore all of a sudden (oil paint is so 1500's yo). And are you saying that because Bejeweled uses the same graphics as BW it looks the same, huh? What you do with the available graphics makes the difference. BW still looks good and to be honest Bejeweled doesn't look bad either. Again, you can actually tell units apart even in a large army even if they're clumped up.
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I 100% agree with this statement :
So what makes Brood War so great? It's something almost undefinable. It has a certain magic.
It's exactly that, bw has something magic like, an impossible to explain in words (at least for me) thing that makes its gameplay unique. The stupid but logic pathing, the dumb but perfect units' AI. Can't explain it, it's magic as you said.
It's like all the stars aligned during the game development, that's like every 1/1000 shot succeeded without the developers even being conscious about it, and that's why no game, even in 1000 years, will be able to compete.
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On December 13 2011 00:25 surfinbird1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 00:20 Wohmfg wrote:
To clarify what I said about the graphics, I mean they look old to me. I love them, but I think it does detract from the game's attractiveness to first time viewers. True, to many people it might not look that good. But do you think that people who look for impressive graphics would appreciate the game's depth if it looked better? I highly doubt it.
I think if the game had better graphics then more people would be willing to spend time on the game, and thus appreciate its deepness. Once you have a competitive scene for a game, you could in theory strip away all the graphics to the bare minimum and nothing about the game from a competitive stand point has changed. But reducing the graphics has no benefit to anyone.
If possible, I'd love for Brood War to have a graphical overhaul (and that doesn't necessarily mean 3D graphics) if only to increase popularity of the game. Though I'd probably resist the graphical change on some level, because it wouldn't be what I was used to.
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On December 13 2011 00:20 Wohmfg wrote:
To clarify what I said about the graphics, I mean they look old to me. I love them, but I think it does detract from the game's attractiveness to first time viewers.
It's a shame that that's the way it is really. But absolutely nothing should be done (nothing can't be done) with BW graphics. Maybe first time viewers should put aside the eyecandy from gaming and put the least bit of effort to watch and understand a in-depth and fantastic game.
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I think that you are just feeding the nostalgia argument.
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On December 13 2011 00:54 puppykiller wrote:
I think that you are just feeding the nostalgia argument.
Me in the OP, or the graphics talk?
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On December 13 2011 00:58 Wohmfg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 00:54 puppykiller wrote:
I think that you are just feeding the nostalgia argument. Me in the OP, or the graphics talk?
Both. The legit argument for BW graphics is that you can tell whats going on better in the battles. Saying that they are prettier is kinda dumb. But ya your op just talks about how BW feels better. Sounds really really subjective.
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On December 13 2011 01:06 puppykiller wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 00:58 Wohmfg wrote:On December 13 2011 00:54 puppykiller wrote:
I think that you are just feeding the nostalgia argument. Me in the OP, or the graphics talk? Both. The legit argument for BW graphics is that you can tell whats going on better in the battles. Saying that they are prettier is kinda dumb. But ya your op just talks about how BW feels better. Sounds really really subjective.
Yeah it is very subjective. I put in the disclaimer that it was all just my opinion.
Which parts of the OP in particular do you disagree with though?
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On December 13 2011 01:06 puppykiller wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 00:58 Wohmfg wrote:On December 13 2011 00:54 puppykiller wrote:
I think that you are just feeding the nostalgia argument. Me in the OP, or the graphics talk? Saying that they are prettier is kinda dumb.
It is not. O__o What is ''pretty'' or not is a matter of aestetical preference, polygons and higher resolution does not automatically make something ''prettier'' (unless you mean from a purely technical point of view, which is highly irrelevant).
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On December 13 2011 00:34 surfinbird1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 00:23 SarR wrote:On December 12 2011 23:53 surfinbird1 wrote:Great thread, but I have to refute the claim that BW graphics are outdated. This is in no way true. The shapes of units in BW are so distinct and characteristic even in a 200 supply army you can tell everything apart and in a hundred years I won't forget what a Hydralisk looks like. Personally I feel that RTS graphics age better than FPS graphics. If you take a look at Half-Life today it really looks pretty ugly (still a dynamite game, don't get me wrong here) whereas BW still looks great. Maybe it's because you have to use your fantasy a little to really "see" a unit in a heap of pixels. But if that doesn't look like a Hydralisk to you then nothing does. BW graphics are dated, dont kid yourself. Firstly, almost no gaming company would make a game with sprite based graphics. That shit is the 90s yo. The only exceptions are the ones that make games like Bejewelled. Games like that dont need 3d rendering. Also BW uses indexed images.....there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to use paletted images anymore. Again look at bejewelled, how do you think it looks so beautiful? Dont get me wrong, BW is a great game but thats no reason to exaggerate its qualities. Who cares if "that shit is the 90's yo"? Just because a certain technique is old doesn't mean it isn't aesthetically pleasing anymore all of a sudden (oil paint is so 1500's yo). And are you saying that because Bejeweled uses the same graphics as BW it looks the same, huh? What you do with the available graphics makes the difference. BW still looks good and to be honest Bejeweled doesn't look bad either. Again, you can actually tell units apart even in a large army even if they're clumped up.
No no, you dont understand, clarity is not important
shiny shit blowing up in 3d, now THAT is important.
Also, new is always better, 100% of the time.
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On December 13 2011 01:10 Wohmfg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 01:06 puppykiller wrote:On December 13 2011 00:58 Wohmfg wrote:On December 13 2011 00:54 puppykiller wrote:
I think that you are just feeding the nostalgia argument. Me in the OP, or the graphics talk? Both. The legit argument for BW graphics is that you can tell whats going on better in the battles. Saying that they are prettier is kinda dumb. But ya your op just talks about how BW feels better. Sounds really really subjective. Yeah it is very subjective. I put in the disclaimer that it was all just my opinion. Which parts of the OP in particular do you disagree with though?
I don't disagree with any of it. I just don't think it's worthwhile to make a case for BW primarily off of points that could be interpreted as nostalgia. The only people who are gonna agree with this are people who have played BW for a long time. Thus it just looks like rubbish to newer SC2 players and feeds their theory that most BW players prefer BW due to nostalgia.
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nvm i fail at reading. you have a good point puppykiller, i misunderstood your previous post
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The problem with all the 3D RTS is that they play the same way than two dimentional games. Height has no implication in Sc2, War3, AoE3 etc... for sure there is the cliff system but that the same thing than in bw or AoE1.
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On December 13 2011 01:19 TheAntZ wrote:
"The legit argument for BW graphics is that you can tell whats going on better in the battles. Saying that they are prettier is kinda dumb."
Well if i cant appreciate it...
it must be pretty shit. After all, my taste is all encompassing, and 'opinion' is a myth.
Exactly. Saying that they are prettier in BW is dumb because its incredibly subjective. Saying its easier to tell whats going on in battles in BW isn't dumb, because its true.
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For many of us, BW helped shape our character. Thus, it will stay with us for life.
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On December 13 2011 01:17 puppykiller wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 01:10 Wohmfg wrote:On December 13 2011 01:06 puppykiller wrote:On December 13 2011 00:58 Wohmfg wrote:On December 13 2011 00:54 puppykiller wrote:
I think that you are just feeding the nostalgia argument. Me in the OP, or the graphics talk? Both. The legit argument for BW graphics is that you can tell whats going on better in the battles. Saying that they are prettier is kinda dumb. But ya your op just talks about how BW feels better. Sounds really really subjective. Yeah it is very subjective. I put in the disclaimer that it was all just my opinion. Which parts of the OP in particular do you disagree with though? I don't disagree with any of it. I just don't think it's worthwhile to make a case for BW primarily off of points that could be interpreted as nostalgia. The only people who are gonna agree with this are people who have played BW for a long time. Thus it just looks like rubbish to newer SC2 players and feeds their theory that most BW players prefer BW due to nostalgia.
I disagree that the only people that are going to agree with this are people who already love BW.
The fact that the game is STILL balanced and that there are evolutions of standard play even NOW, how could that not appeal to someone interested in competitive games? And I would argue that the units and spells are interesting and diverse and unique to the units, which is also something that should be interesting to an RTS fan.
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I think BW was a well designed game, but its success has some accident to it. Like popping out in Korea at the right time, players figuring out game engine tricks and such.
BW became a godly game, its hard to explain exactly how it got to that stage.
Will SC2 live up to the Starcraft name? Who knows.... in 5 years we will figure it out, but so far it does'nt look nor feel like it.
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BW magic will live forever in my heart.
When I watch BW (SKPL) these days, I feel 'enlightened' (phrase commonly used by Flash, o_O; . I don't think I'm watching 'a game.' I'm watching something so special that it belongs in its own category. The mix of entertainment and satisfaction (oh and enlightenment!) from watching pro BW is something I dare say will be replicated by anything else in the present and the future.
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I played many other old RTS recently to see if any had maybe any more depth than first appeared, and really they don't. And among it's peers BW and AoE have far better sprite-work than the competition. And i don't see any advantage or point to completely 2D gameplay RTS having 3D graphics.. Total Annihilation yes have it 3D, but for a Starcraft style RTS there's no advantage it just raises the computer specs by about 50 times. But it simply isn't acceptable to release a videogame these days that is graphically simplistic and focuses on strategy unless it's on an inferior system like DS (in which case it will be therefore dumbed down strategically instead).
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On December 12 2011 23:12 Wohmfg wrote:Hueeuhaeuhuahe, silly terran, you can't move through stasised units.
seriously. stasis on sentry would be way more awesome than ff.
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As a new-to-the-community SC2 guy, I really feel for you longtime BW fans. I would have to disagree that there is anything BETTER technically about the old game than the new one, but I can definitely understand why older fans would be upset that the game they love is losing its scene. With all the space control units, lower food costs and higher resource collection per worker it is just plain different than SC2, and it sucks to lose something unique for seemingly arbitrary commercial reasons. After all this time, how can BW suddenly not be worth sponsoring in Korea? Please don't blame SC2 for BW's decline... as great as SC2 is, imo, it is too different from BW to be considered a 'replacement' for the classic game.
Long live Brood War! Even if all the best BW players came to SC2 and brought the game to a new level, it would not be worth losing the first ESPORT and a great spectator game. Besides, given how many BW pros have decided to just go to the army or retire, I'm not sure how many legends the SC2 scene would get in the end anyways 
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On December 13 2011 03:54 TundrA. wrote:As a new-to-the-community SC2 guy, I really feel for you longtime BW fans. I would have to disagree that there is anything BETTER technically about the old game than the new one, but I can definitely understand why older fans would be upset that the game they love is losing its scene. With all the space control units, lower food costs and higher resource collection per worker it is just plain different than SC2, and it sucks to lose something unique for seemingly arbitrary commercial reasons. After all this time, how can BW suddenly not be worth sponsoring in Korea? Please don't blame SC2 for BW's decline... as great as SC2 is, imo, it is too different from BW to be considered a 'replacement' for the classic game. Long live Brood War! Even if all the best BW players came to SC2 and brought the game to a new level, it would not be worth losing the first ESPORT and a great spectator game. Besides, given how many BW pros have decided to just go to the army or retire, I'm not sure how many legends the SC2 scene would get in the end anyways
Nice post.
Yeah, there is nothing technically better about BW, but that is part of its charm. The difficult mechanics was never a deliberate implementation, it just worked out that the UI wasn't completely user friendly. If you tried to put these false limitations on a new game I think it would feel forced and unnatural.
I think SC2 is in part responsible for BW's decline, or at least a catalyst, but it's just something that is. I feel sad that BW is going to be gone, but I'm not angry that SC2 is a current success. I hope SC2 takes the place of BW as something that is entirely magical even after 10 years but I really doubt that will happen. I doubt any game will come along in my lifetime that is as special as BW.
Long live BW indeed!
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To jump on the nostalgia boat:
There were holidays spent waking up, starting Brood War, playing on Battle.Net with friends for the entire day, then going to sleep at 3 AM just to do the same thing the next day.
Ah, the halcyon days of youth...
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This... just made me happy.... then sad... then mopey...and now, I'm crying  . Excuse me while I go take a long walk...
edit: Also, read my quote of Chill ^^
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The BW leagues will last for however KeSPA wants it to last.
Think of the U.I. as a rulebook then you will understand.
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I think the 'magic' you are describing is nostalgia 
I've never played BW but I've watched some after playing/watching SC2 for a while. The proleague matches are pretty fun  I watched Jangbi vs Flash and I was just constantly thought Flash was ahead all the time because he's a bonjwa, so I thought that the one ahead in supply was always Flash xD Then he lost and I didn't understand what happened.
But now watching the SPL is pretty interesting/fun, although I only tune in for the S class players as they are the only ones I know much about (apart from top A class)
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In my heart, BW will forever roam, prancing around in the fields...
sorta on topic, the graphics are much more clear because all the units don't blend apart, and units can't exactly be "in front" of another unit like in SC2.
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nice picture of the stasis on the ramp ^_^
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I played my first game in a longgg time of Brood War the other day. It was just a game at the D ranks but I forgot how good winning felt in Brood War. No other game has ever given me that same feeling and I don't think ever will, besides a real-life sport like basketball or football. Winning in Brood War is a fight to prove that you're more of a man than the other guy, more of a competitor. All the effort you put into the game pays off once you see that 'gg' from your opponent.
And that's why I love Brood War.
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You should talk about how good it feels when Protoss trips over 20000 of your (APM INTENSIVELY LAID) mines and you intercept their probe transfer (WITH YOUR AWESOME MULTITASK) and (YOUR NICELY POSITIONED) tanks melt all their goons.
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On December 13 2011 00:34 surfinbird1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 00:23 SarR wrote:On December 12 2011 23:53 surfinbird1 wrote:Great thread, but I have to refute the claim that BW graphics are outdated. This is in no way true. The shapes of units in BW are so distinct and characteristic even in a 200 supply army you can tell everything apart and in a hundred years I won't forget what a Hydralisk looks like. Personally I feel that RTS graphics age better than FPS graphics. If you take a look at Half-Life today it really looks pretty ugly (still a dynamite game, don't get me wrong here) whereas BW still looks great. Maybe it's because you have to use your fantasy a little to really "see" a unit in a heap of pixels. But if that doesn't look like a Hydralisk to you then nothing does. BW graphics are dated, dont kid yourself. Firstly, almost no gaming company would make a game with sprite based graphics. That shit is the 90s yo. The only exceptions are the ones that make games like Bejewelled. Games like that dont need 3d rendering. Also BW uses indexed images.....there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to use paletted images anymore. Again look at bejewelled, how do you think it looks so beautiful? Dont get me wrong, BW is a great game but thats no reason to exaggerate its qualities. Who cares if "that shit is the 90's yo"? Just because a certain technique is old doesn't mean it isn't aesthetically pleasing anymore all of a sudden (oil paint is so 1500's yo). And are you saying that because Bejeweled uses the same graphics as BW it looks the same, huh? What you do with the available graphics makes the difference. BW still looks good and to be honest Bejeweled doesn't look bad either. Again, you can actually tell units apart even in a large army even if they're clumped up.
You have a problem with comprehension. To say as you said that BW graphics isnt dated is misleading. BW is a good game for many reasons.......but THE GRAPHICS ARE STILL DATED. As revolutionary as BW is, THE GRAPHICS ARE STILL DATED.
The point I am driving home here is that if you illuminate the magical qualities present in BW to those who haven't had the priviledge of growing up with it, be faithful and avoid making ridiculous and exaggerated claims about it. BW uses indexed images which in the eyes of the modern gamer is very distinctive. It is easy to see this difference when you look at sprites from games like BW and Doom in comparison to sprites from modern sprite based games like Bejewelled which are 24 bit images. Just because its dated doesnt make it bad. I still love Doom, as a matter of fact, I like Doom more than any modern FPS but my love for it doesnt change the fact that its THE GRAPHICS ARE DATED. DO NOT MAKE MISLEADING STATEMENTS
Any game whose graphics are based on indexed bitmaps are relics. Even the shittiest modern graphic cards and the most generic drivers today can easily handle 24 bit images which is why indexed bitmaps are no longer the standard hence dated. The palette of an indexed image can only represent up to 256 distinct colors as opposed to the millions that can be represented in a 24 bit bitmap, this means the image quality would be inferior, something that a modern gamer would easily recognize.
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Is there anything wrong with dated graphics? Personally I'd like to tell units apart during big engagements, SC2 viewers apparently don't care.
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I always lol at the "nostalgia" argument, just cuz incontrol says it doesn't make it true, as hes pretty much completely clueless about the last few years of BW. Some of actually still play the game, its not nostalgia, some of us just like it more.
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What I am describing is not nostalgia. I am marveling at how a game can still be entertaining to me now after 10 years of competitive play.
It might be very subjective and it might not persuade any one else (although I think I put forward good arguments for why BW is great), but it is certainly not nostalgia.
On December 13 2011 08:12 zenMaster wrote:
Is there anything wrong with dated graphics? Personally I'd like to tell units apart during big engagements, SC2 viewers apparently don't care.
Nothing wrong with dated graphics, but you have to understand that they are dated.
Thread got derailed pretty hard from 3 words in my OP, lolz.
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"Graphics are dated" is such a meaningless statement.
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On December 13 2011 03:54 TundrA. wrote:As a new-to-the-community SC2 guy, I really feel for you longtime BW fans. I would have to disagree that there is anything BETTER technically about the old game than the new one, but I can definitely understand why older fans would be upset that the game they love is losing its scene. With all the space control units, lower food costs and higher resource collection per worker it is just plain different than SC2, and it sucks to lose something unique for seemingly arbitrary commercial reasons. After all this time, how can BW suddenly not be worth sponsoring in Korea? Please don't blame SC2 for BW's decline... as great as SC2 is, imo, it is too different from BW to be considered a 'replacement' for the classic game. Long live Brood War! Even if all the best BW players came to SC2 and brought the game to a new level, it would not be worth losing the first ESPORT and a great spectator game. Besides, given how many BW pros have decided to just go to the army or retire, I'm not sure how many legends the SC2 scene would get in the end anyways
What do you mean by technically better? That definition varies from person to person.
Also, even if you don't think the games are alike for all practical purposes SC2 is seen as a replacement by pretty much everybody. You can't really say that BW's decline isn't related to SC2 at all.
Finally, sure, even if the graphics are dated, they have aged very well. In terms of presentation, the graphics still does a very good job. I like them better than the SC2 graphics because it's much clearer
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On December 13 2011 08:50 DarkMatter_ wrote:
"Graphics are dated" is such a meaningless statement.
Not true.
To articulate, graphics have always played a huge part in games by providing immersion and atmosphere, among other things. Aging graphics affect different games in different ways.
In Brood War's context, what people are really trying to argue is that Brood War's aging graphics does not affect the players' ability to enjoy the game. This is an aspect Brood War shares with the likes of Super Mario games, in that even though the graphics are outdated they are so crisp and clear that they still have no problems conveying the game play in full. Brood War has a very bare-bones graphics presentation (except when there are too many Goliaths/Valkyries shooting missiles) that conveys the game play very well.
You can contrast Brood War's graphical aging with a game like MorroWind, where graphics are an integral part of game play because it provides immersion. When playing through MorroWind today a player could see the monotonously textured dungeons that are so poorly lit that it's hard to tell the floor from the walls or the ceiling. The outdated graphics affect a player's ability to enjoy the game. You can tell this is the case because in the sequel Oblivion Bethesda clearly went out of their way to provide real and artificial lighting in dungeons so players do not become hindered by the graphics.
Sometimes dated graphics are a problem, sometimes they aren't.
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And that, ladies and gentleman, is the reason why I don't play on FS. Or Terran.
On the dated graphics argument. Yes, they are dated, but that doesn't mean that
- they are not beautiful
- they are not crisp
It's just that the 3D-kids will be turned of from such graphics.
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On December 13 2011 09:07 Newbistic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 08:50 DarkMatter_ wrote:
"Graphics are dated" is such a meaningless statement. Not true. To articulate, graphics have always played a huge part in games by providing immersion and atmosphere, among other things. Aging graphics affect different games in different ways. In Brood War's context, what people are really trying to argue is that Brood War's aging graphics does not affect the players' ability to enjoy the game. This is an aspect Brood War shares with the likes of Super Mario games, in that even though the graphics are outdated they are so crisp and clear that they still have no problems conveying the game play in full. Brood War has a very bare-bones graphics presentation (except when there are too many Goliaths/Valkyries shooting missiles) that conveys the game play very well. You can contrast Brood War's graphical aging with a game like MorroWind, where graphics are an integral part of game play because it provides immersion. When playing through MorroWind today a player could see the monotonously textured dungeons that are so poorly lit that it's hard to tell the floor from the walls or the ceiling. The outdated graphics affect a player's ability to enjoy the game. You can tell this is the case because in the sequel Oblivion Bethesda clearly went out of their way to provide real and artificial lighting in dungeons so players do not become hindered by the graphics. Sometimes dated graphics are a problem, sometimes they aren't.
This guy nailed it. The graphics are dated but the game is still great, just dont lie is all im saying.
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In one thing we all agree about the graphics: they are muuuuuuch more mature than SC2 3d models.
If there's one thing I didnt enjoy about SC2 that has no direct relation with gameplay/balance, it is its art direction. Everything looks so childish/cartoony. They should've gone more like HoMM VI did. But again we go off-topic, so..
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On December 13 2011 09:07 Newbistic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 08:50 DarkMatter_ wrote:
"Graphics are dated" is such a meaningless statement. Not true. To articulate, graphics have always played a huge part in games by providing immersion and atmosphere, among other things. Aging graphics affect different games in different ways. In Brood War's context, what people are really trying to argue is that Brood War's aging graphics does not affect the players' ability to enjoy the game. This is an aspect Brood War shares with the likes of Super Mario games, in that even though the graphics are outdated they are so crisp and clear that they still have no problems conveying the game play in full. Brood War has a very bare-bones graphics presentation (except when there are too many Goliaths/Valkyries shooting missiles) that conveys the game play very well. You can contrast Brood War's graphical aging with a game like MorroWind, where graphics are an integral part of game play because it provides immersion. When playing through MorroWind today a player could see the monotonously textured dungeons that are so poorly lit that it's hard to tell the floor from the walls or the ceiling. The outdated graphics affect a player's ability to enjoy the game. You can tell this is the case because in the sequel Oblivion Bethesda clearly went out of their way to provide real and artificial lighting in dungeons so players do not become hindered by the graphics. Sometimes dated graphics are a problem, sometimes they aren't.
Your post just supports my point. My point was there merely pointing out that the graphics are dated says nothing meaningful, not that graphics don't matter (which is how you seem to have interpreted my post). There are plenty of older games, which might technically have "dated graphics", but still look beautiful due to excellent art direction.
Besides, I don't even agree that BW has dated graphics. To me, "dated" doesn't simply mean old, but it has a lot to do with how well the game has aged visually and whether the visuals hinder the game's ability to convey what it needs to. Otherwise, almost every single game has "dated graphics" because it's being replaced by something newer and shinier (just another reason why I find that phrase utterly meaningless). There's a reason why BW has aged so well and why hundreds of thousands of people still find it to be a great spectator sport. BW's visuals are timeless (just like Super Mario, Tetris, Heroes of Might and Magic 2/3, and countless other classics).
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i'd have to agree with the graphics part. though i feel its not fair to be comparing bw with sc2. sc2 still has 2 more expansions and lots of time for them to change things. until then, i think bw vs sc2 discussions should not be brought up at all.
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BW isn't dying. It's just consolidating. The Archon of MBC Game and OGN will emerge stronger and more power overwhelming.
<3
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On December 13 2011 10:53 JMave wrote:
i'd have to agree with the graphics part. though i feel its not fair to be comparing bw with sc2. sc2 still has 2 more expansions and lots of time for them to change things. until then, i think bw vs sc2 discussions should not be brought up at all.
Uh, why not? Our feedback shapes the design process, and comparing it to BW is the best way to highlight any flaws in SC2 since BW, apart from being the predecessor of SC2, is still the definitive example of a great competitive RTS. Blizzard already seems to have no clue what they're doing, I'm afraid to think how badly they'll screw up if the community doesn't get involved in the design process.
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I got BW when i was like 10, didn't understand it at all xD
Get sc2 at 16.... Start watching BW PL....
Get hooked on BW ;_;
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On December 13 2011 10:37 DarkMatter_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 09:07 Newbistic wrote:On December 13 2011 08:50 DarkMatter_ wrote:
"Graphics are dated" is such a meaningless statement. Not true. To articulate, graphics have always played a huge part in games by providing immersion and atmosphere, among other things. Aging graphics affect different games in different ways. In Brood War's context, what people are really trying to argue is that Brood War's aging graphics does not affect the players' ability to enjoy the game. This is an aspect Brood War shares with the likes of Super Mario games, in that even though the graphics are outdated they are so crisp and clear that they still have no problems conveying the game play in full. Brood War has a very bare-bones graphics presentation (except when there are too many Goliaths/Valkyries shooting missiles) that conveys the game play very well. You can contrast Brood War's graphical aging with a game like MorroWind, where graphics are an integral part of game play because it provides immersion. When playing through MorroWind today a player could see the monotonously textured dungeons that are so poorly lit that it's hard to tell the floor from the walls or the ceiling. The outdated graphics affect a player's ability to enjoy the game. You can tell this is the case because in the sequel Oblivion Bethesda clearly went out of their way to provide real and artificial lighting in dungeons so players do not become hindered by the graphics. Sometimes dated graphics are a problem, sometimes they aren't. Your post just supports my point. My point was there merely pointing out that the graphics are dated says nothing meaningful, not that graphics don't matter (which is how you seem to have interpreted my post). There are plenty of older games, which might technically have "dated graphics", but still look beautiful due to excellent art direction. Besides, I don't even agree that BW has dated graphics. To me, "dated" doesn't simply mean old, but it has a lot to do with how well the game has aged visually and whether the visuals hinder the game's ability to convey what it needs to. Otherwise, almost every single game has "dated graphics" because it's being replaced by something newer and shinier (just another reason why I find that phrase utterly meaningless). There's a reason why BW has aged so well and why hundreds of thousands of people still find it to be a great spectator sport. BW's visuals are timeless (just like Super Mario, Tetris, Heroes of Might and Magic 2/3, and countless other classics).
Now I have to go install HoM 3 , I miss that game very much ..
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On December 13 2011 10:37 DarkMatter_ wrote:
Besides, I don't even agree that BW has dated graphics. To me, "dated" doesn't simply mean old, but it has a lot to do with how well the game has aged visually and whether the visuals hinder the game's ability to convey what it needs to.
Oh for god's sake...no one uses 256 color images anymore....no game, no operating system, no software written in the last 5 years uses such a limited color scheme. It has nothing to do with how well the images were used or how well you can recognize a marine or any of that.
BW is a wonderful game I've come to love but its graphics are dated. When you all keep saying its not dated, you are allowing your love for the game and its heavy history to affect your assessment of it by making claims that aren't true. Understand that no one is saying that BW is not a wonderful game worthy of admiration for its strategical depth and near perfect balance. This however will never change the fact that its rendering system is a relic of a bygone era, glorious as it was is comparatively primitive by modern standards.
When you say its not dated, you trick people into believing that this game looks like something that came out within the last five years which just isnt true. You guys need to stop saying this and focus on what really makes BW great. Show them a Boxer replay of his finest dropship play, or Breeze[Akuta]'s amazing shuttle/HT/Reaver play, which demonstrate without words the true greatness of BW. Its not the graphics that make it great. Once upon a time its graphics were cutting edge but not anymore, it has become dated.
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Brood War's graphics weren't even that advanced when SC first came out. I remember watching an interview somewhere where one of the Blizzard staff talked about how they were for whatever reason limited to only 8 colors maximum per sprite, so they were forced to make the sprites as clear as possible.
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On December 12 2011 23:12 Wohmfg wrote:
How was Brood War so balanced then? Can't Blizzard just do what they did with Brood War to make Starcraft 2 magical also? No, because
competitors will always stretch the game to the absolute limit in order to win
Patrol micro is not something Blizzard put in the game. Muta stacking is not something Blizzard put in the game. The razor edge balance of the timings in ZvT, the initial M&M forcing the zerg to sunken up, the mutas keeping the terran contained while zerg takes his third, the push supported by tanks and vessels to pressure the zerg, who hopefully gets his hive tech just in time to thwart him, was something that could never be planned. The recent trend of terrans 1 rax expanding against tosses in response to 12 nexing tosses gaining an eco advantage is not something any game designer could ever foresee.
These are all things the players have come up with in order to get an advantage over his opponent. When Blizzard made Brood War they created a top quality and fun game with great substance. Then they let the players run free with it. Of course it's not as simple as this as there have been plenty of balance changes made by Blizzard over the years. But it's not like what they're doing with Starcraft 2, which is essentially telling people how to play the game. They're narrowing the framework in which the game is balanced, by giving each unit and each action by the player a defined consequence. It was a great chance that Brood War turned out to be so balanced after more than 10 years of thousands of players trying to exploit every single advantage of the 3 races to gain an advantage over another.
I feel this is a point that should be emphasized more strongly. As many posters above have noted, the graphics do not detract from what makes the game great, even though many modern players will be unable to instantly see the appeal, visually, like they might a game like Skyrim. As such, its greatness comes *primarily* from its gameplay, as such the *players*. Allowing players to push the game to the limit has created the BW we know and love today, and while the several BW balance patches were needed (hell, the BW expansion itself), it's nowhere like what Blizzard's been doing with SC2, shaping gameplay in that fashion.
You didn't really see Blizzard thinking, "how do I make X unit more useful in BW" and then nerfing the stats of another unit or buffing this one. There were several major ones that are remembered precisely because of how infrequent they were (Zealot life from 80/80 to 100/60, for example), or turrets from 100 minerals to 75, but for the most part they changed stuff for fairly concrete reason, like spawning pool cost. In SC2, it's all over the place. Pros aren't really given the chance (to the same extent that BW pros were able to) really push the game to its limits.
Take the Arbiter. Long regarded as absolutely worthless because of its cost. Eventually, someone figures out, or we should say, *creates* a way to use it in PvT, and the game is changed brilliantly. If the same thing happened with today's Blizzard, we'd see complaints about its cost, or the weakness of Protoss late-game options, and maybe they'd nerf it to 100/250, and then people would start using it frequently, and perhaps there'd be cries of imba (imagine cheaper Arbiters in BW PvT), and then perhaps Blizzard would remove it completely or nerf it again? Almost every major change in BW over the past 10 years has been created by player innovation, and thus everything works because it has survived the test of time and experience. The zealot/dragoon combo is viable not because Blizzard necessarily designed the units to be so, but because that's what works (so far)! On the other hand, unit combos in SC2 are to a much larger extent *created*. A was designed to counter B, B designed to counter C, and so forth.
Long story short... let 'em play, as we would say in Hockey. Unfortunately, because Blizzard is intentionally investing in this as an "eSport", I fear that it is actually harming SC2's development. Blizzard pretty much not giving a fuck about complaints or viability of eSports in BW allowed it to develop into the game we know today (think of pre-FE PvZ), but now with so much profit on the line, they feel they can't *wait* for something to happen, and they try to force the issue.
And that's a damn shame.
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Broodwar will live on forever, as long as there are people like us who feel nostalgia about it or still actually play the game/follow the community.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/5/55/Hydralisk.png)
