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I think the 'magic' you are describing is nostalgia 
I've never played BW but I've watched some after playing/watching SC2 for a while. The proleague matches are pretty fun  I watched Jangbi vs Flash and I was just constantly thought Flash was ahead all the time because he's a bonjwa, so I thought that the one ahead in supply was always Flash xD Then he lost and I didn't understand what happened.
But now watching the SPL is pretty interesting/fun, although I only tune in for the S class players as they are the only ones I know much about (apart from top A class)
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In my heart, BW will forever roam, prancing around in the fields...
sorta on topic, the graphics are much more clear because all the units don't blend apart, and units can't exactly be "in front" of another unit like in SC2.
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nice picture of the stasis on the ramp ^_^
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I played my first game in a longgg time of Brood War the other day. It was just a game at the D ranks but I forgot how good winning felt in Brood War. No other game has ever given me that same feeling and I don't think ever will, besides a real-life sport like basketball or football. Winning in Brood War is a fight to prove that you're more of a man than the other guy, more of a competitor. All the effort you put into the game pays off once you see that 'gg' from your opponent.
And that's why I love Brood War.
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You should talk about how good it feels when Protoss trips over 20000 of your (APM INTENSIVELY LAID) mines and you intercept their probe transfer (WITH YOUR AWESOME MULTITASK) and (YOUR NICELY POSITIONED) tanks melt all their goons.
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On December 13 2011 00:34 surfinbird1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 00:23 SarR wrote:On December 12 2011 23:53 surfinbird1 wrote:Great thread, but I have to refute the claim that BW graphics are outdated. This is in no way true. The shapes of units in BW are so distinct and characteristic even in a 200 supply army you can tell everything apart and in a hundred years I won't forget what a Hydralisk looks like. Personally I feel that RTS graphics age better than FPS graphics. If you take a look at Half-Life today it really looks pretty ugly (still a dynamite game, don't get me wrong here) whereas BW still looks great. Maybe it's because you have to use your fantasy a little to really "see" a unit in a heap of pixels. But if that doesn't look like a Hydralisk to you then nothing does. BW graphics are dated, dont kid yourself. Firstly, almost no gaming company would make a game with sprite based graphics. That shit is the 90s yo. The only exceptions are the ones that make games like Bejewelled. Games like that dont need 3d rendering. Also BW uses indexed images.....there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to use paletted images anymore. Again look at bejewelled, how do you think it looks so beautiful? Dont get me wrong, BW is a great game but thats no reason to exaggerate its qualities. Who cares if "that shit is the 90's yo"? Just because a certain technique is old doesn't mean it isn't aesthetically pleasing anymore all of a sudden (oil paint is so 1500's yo). And are you saying that because Bejeweled uses the same graphics as BW it looks the same, huh? What you do with the available graphics makes the difference. BW still looks good and to be honest Bejeweled doesn't look bad either. Again, you can actually tell units apart even in a large army even if they're clumped up.
You have a problem with comprehension. To say as you said that BW graphics isnt dated is misleading. BW is a good game for many reasons.......but THE GRAPHICS ARE STILL DATED. As revolutionary as BW is, THE GRAPHICS ARE STILL DATED.
The point I am driving home here is that if you illuminate the magical qualities present in BW to those who haven't had the priviledge of growing up with it, be faithful and avoid making ridiculous and exaggerated claims about it. BW uses indexed images which in the eyes of the modern gamer is very distinctive. It is easy to see this difference when you look at sprites from games like BW and Doom in comparison to sprites from modern sprite based games like Bejewelled which are 24 bit images. Just because its dated doesnt make it bad. I still love Doom, as a matter of fact, I like Doom more than any modern FPS but my love for it doesnt change the fact that its THE GRAPHICS ARE DATED. DO NOT MAKE MISLEADING STATEMENTS
Any game whose graphics are based on indexed bitmaps are relics. Even the shittiest modern graphic cards and the most generic drivers today can easily handle 24 bit images which is why indexed bitmaps are no longer the standard hence dated. The palette of an indexed image can only represent up to 256 distinct colors as opposed to the millions that can be represented in a 24 bit bitmap, this means the image quality would be inferior, something that a modern gamer would easily recognize.
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Is there anything wrong with dated graphics? Personally I'd like to tell units apart during big engagements, SC2 viewers apparently don't care.
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I always lol at the "nostalgia" argument, just cuz incontrol says it doesn't make it true, as hes pretty much completely clueless about the last few years of BW. Some of actually still play the game, its not nostalgia, some of us just like it more.
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What I am describing is not nostalgia. I am marveling at how a game can still be entertaining to me now after 10 years of competitive play.
It might be very subjective and it might not persuade any one else (although I think I put forward good arguments for why BW is great), but it is certainly not nostalgia.
On December 13 2011 08:12 zenMaster wrote:
Is there anything wrong with dated graphics? Personally I'd like to tell units apart during big engagements, SC2 viewers apparently don't care.
Nothing wrong with dated graphics, but you have to understand that they are dated.
Thread got derailed pretty hard from 3 words in my OP, lolz.
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"Graphics are dated" is such a meaningless statement.
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On December 13 2011 03:54 TundrA. wrote:As a new-to-the-community SC2 guy, I really feel for you longtime BW fans. I would have to disagree that there is anything BETTER technically about the old game than the new one, but I can definitely understand why older fans would be upset that the game they love is losing its scene. With all the space control units, lower food costs and higher resource collection per worker it is just plain different than SC2, and it sucks to lose something unique for seemingly arbitrary commercial reasons. After all this time, how can BW suddenly not be worth sponsoring in Korea? Please don't blame SC2 for BW's decline... as great as SC2 is, imo, it is too different from BW to be considered a 'replacement' for the classic game. Long live Brood War! Even if all the best BW players came to SC2 and brought the game to a new level, it would not be worth losing the first ESPORT and a great spectator game. Besides, given how many BW pros have decided to just go to the army or retire, I'm not sure how many legends the SC2 scene would get in the end anyways 
What do you mean by technically better? That definition varies from person to person.
Also, even if you don't think the games are alike for all practical purposes SC2 is seen as a replacement by pretty much everybody. You can't really say that BW's decline isn't related to SC2 at all.
Finally, sure, even if the graphics are dated, they have aged very well. In terms of presentation, the graphics still does a very good job. I like them better than the SC2 graphics because it's much clearer
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On December 13 2011 08:50 DarkMatter_ wrote:
"Graphics are dated" is such a meaningless statement.
Not true.
To articulate, graphics have always played a huge part in games by providing immersion and atmosphere, among other things. Aging graphics affect different games in different ways.
In Brood War's context, what people are really trying to argue is that Brood War's aging graphics does not affect the players' ability to enjoy the game. This is an aspect Brood War shares with the likes of Super Mario games, in that even though the graphics are outdated they are so crisp and clear that they still have no problems conveying the game play in full. Brood War has a very bare-bones graphics presentation (except when there are too many Goliaths/Valkyries shooting missiles) that conveys the game play very well.
You can contrast Brood War's graphical aging with a game like MorroWind, where graphics are an integral part of game play because it provides immersion. When playing through MorroWind today a player could see the monotonously textured dungeons that are so poorly lit that it's hard to tell the floor from the walls or the ceiling. The outdated graphics affect a player's ability to enjoy the game. You can tell this is the case because in the sequel Oblivion Bethesda clearly went out of their way to provide real and artificial lighting in dungeons so players do not become hindered by the graphics.
Sometimes dated graphics are a problem, sometimes they aren't.
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![[image loading]](http://i40.tinypic.com/wjcsvd.jpg)
And that, ladies and gentleman, is the reason why I don't play on FS. Or Terran.
On the dated graphics argument. Yes, they are dated, but that doesn't mean that
- they are not beautiful
- they are not crisp
It's just that the 3D-kids will be turned of from such graphics.
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On December 13 2011 09:07 Newbistic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 08:50 DarkMatter_ wrote:
"Graphics are dated" is such a meaningless statement. Not true. To articulate, graphics have always played a huge part in games by providing immersion and atmosphere, among other things. Aging graphics affect different games in different ways. In Brood War's context, what people are really trying to argue is that Brood War's aging graphics does not affect the players' ability to enjoy the game. This is an aspect Brood War shares with the likes of Super Mario games, in that even though the graphics are outdated they are so crisp and clear that they still have no problems conveying the game play in full. Brood War has a very bare-bones graphics presentation (except when there are too many Goliaths/Valkyries shooting missiles) that conveys the game play very well. You can contrast Brood War's graphical aging with a game like MorroWind, where graphics are an integral part of game play because it provides immersion. When playing through MorroWind today a player could see the monotonously textured dungeons that are so poorly lit that it's hard to tell the floor from the walls or the ceiling. The outdated graphics affect a player's ability to enjoy the game. You can tell this is the case because in the sequel Oblivion Bethesda clearly went out of their way to provide real and artificial lighting in dungeons so players do not become hindered by the graphics. Sometimes dated graphics are a problem, sometimes they aren't.
This guy nailed it. The graphics are dated but the game is still great, just dont lie is all im saying.
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In one thing we all agree about the graphics: they are muuuuuuch more mature than SC2 3d models.
If there's one thing I didnt enjoy about SC2 that has no direct relation with gameplay/balance, it is its art direction. Everything looks so childish/cartoony. They should've gone more like HoMM VI did. But again we go off-topic, so..
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On December 13 2011 09:07 Newbistic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 08:50 DarkMatter_ wrote:
"Graphics are dated" is such a meaningless statement. Not true. To articulate, graphics have always played a huge part in games by providing immersion and atmosphere, among other things. Aging graphics affect different games in different ways. In Brood War's context, what people are really trying to argue is that Brood War's aging graphics does not affect the players' ability to enjoy the game. This is an aspect Brood War shares with the likes of Super Mario games, in that even though the graphics are outdated they are so crisp and clear that they still have no problems conveying the game play in full. Brood War has a very bare-bones graphics presentation (except when there are too many Goliaths/Valkyries shooting missiles) that conveys the game play very well. You can contrast Brood War's graphical aging with a game like MorroWind, where graphics are an integral part of game play because it provides immersion. When playing through MorroWind today a player could see the monotonously textured dungeons that are so poorly lit that it's hard to tell the floor from the walls or the ceiling. The outdated graphics affect a player's ability to enjoy the game. You can tell this is the case because in the sequel Oblivion Bethesda clearly went out of their way to provide real and artificial lighting in dungeons so players do not become hindered by the graphics. Sometimes dated graphics are a problem, sometimes they aren't.
Your post just supports my point. My point was there merely pointing out that the graphics are dated says nothing meaningful, not that graphics don't matter (which is how you seem to have interpreted my post). There are plenty of older games, which might technically have "dated graphics", but still look beautiful due to excellent art direction.
Besides, I don't even agree that BW has dated graphics. To me, "dated" doesn't simply mean old, but it has a lot to do with how well the game has aged visually and whether the visuals hinder the game's ability to convey what it needs to. Otherwise, almost every single game has "dated graphics" because it's being replaced by something newer and shinier (just another reason why I find that phrase utterly meaningless). There's a reason why BW has aged so well and why hundreds of thousands of people still find it to be a great spectator sport. BW's visuals are timeless (just like Super Mario, Tetris, Heroes of Might and Magic 2/3, and countless other classics).
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i'd have to agree with the graphics part. though i feel its not fair to be comparing bw with sc2. sc2 still has 2 more expansions and lots of time for them to change things. until then, i think bw vs sc2 discussions should not be brought up at all.
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BW isn't dying. It's just consolidating. The Archon of MBC Game and OGN will emerge stronger and more power overwhelming.
<3
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On December 13 2011 10:53 JMave wrote:
i'd have to agree with the graphics part. though i feel its not fair to be comparing bw with sc2. sc2 still has 2 more expansions and lots of time for them to change things. until then, i think bw vs sc2 discussions should not be brought up at all.
Uh, why not? Our feedback shapes the design process, and comparing it to BW is the best way to highlight any flaws in SC2 since BW, apart from being the predecessor of SC2, is still the definitive example of a great competitive RTS. Blizzard already seems to have no clue what they're doing, I'm afraid to think how badly they'll screw up if the community doesn't get involved in the design process.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/5/55/Hydralisk.png)
