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PRO PROOF OF CONCEPT - http://www.twitch.tv/mstephano/b/301773438 fast forward to about an hour
and 10mins which is where it starts. notice this is in no way all in but in fact just standard play and multiple angled attacks
it was the perfect time to post this blog to silence the doubters because up untill now no one has really done this
so ever since sc2 happened my friends and i have debated the new metagame. I've actually called quite a few big metagame switches way before they happened and they always say naw naw naw u didnt say it THAT way
here is my new theory for metagame switch for zvp so i can get this on record
- in the zvp matchup a new turtle style, which really isnt that new, has been causing a lot of zergs trouble and i have been debating this for some time now and i came to the conclusion that drops is the absolute answer. (note this is not a strat again this is not a strat. this is what should be standard play and everything else you do is normal just with drops)
fact- no race can actually beat a zerg playing standard atm without a wall off and it is this fact alone that does not change through the game when talking about equal econ production under 100 supply. this fact wanes only as the army sizes get bigger which brings me to the goals...
fact- the strength of a protoss tech unit such as archon/immortal/collosi is solely connected to the strength of the army around it. target fire on an immortal when there is 6 stalkers around isnt that big a deal but trying to target fire archons/immortals/collosi when there is a larger army spanking you while you take the time to remove these tiered units IS the problem
- the #1 goal in any zerg matchup should be to trade armys for as long as possible. (someone said it was getting expos and denying expos but that is more of a very broad goal that comes from having the bigger army and map control which both are derived from doing just what im going to describe. basically this base denial will come with the territory of trading armys)
By keeping tech low it highlights the attributes that are the roach and the zergling. here in lies the problem tho.... a protoss can forcefield himself so costeffectively on maps like shakuras and antiga that this method is almost impossible culminating in a "final battle" that determines the fate of the zerg at 200/200 supply.
-the #2 goal of a zerg in any matchup should be surface area.
too many times i see a zerg and many pros do this not use any other attack angles other then the front and at most one other location. this is a very flawed method of play. in fact i would say this is of a level not worthy of pro but i digress... ever heard your friend claim "z is so dumb he beat my collosi with just roach"? well thats because your friend didnt get any good forcefields and uh yeh roaches are WAY more cost effective then anything a protoss has without map manipulation. here is where flanks come in. lets say on antigashipyard we have a protoss push comming through the center of the map or the sides, it does not matter. the goal of the zerg should be to have one army above the toss anther to its side and one to its front. lets say the zergs fighting a massive collosi ball of 7 collosi and all he has is roach hydra. you prob wont win but what you can do since the game has gone on long enough is trade effectively by attacking from these 4 sides and getting such a surround that forcefields are just not even worth having. in fact such an attack might even win the game but most certainly will be so cost effective that any remaxing roaches will 100 percent clean up the push. the dif between this scenario and most currently is that the lack of tech isnt felt because of both good spreading and good surface area but because u are able to kill the protoss ground army your remaxing army will not be slaughtered at the rally point as would if you fight str8 up.
-the #3 thing a zerg must do is repetitious your honor because a zergs job circles back to thinking of ways to get 1 and 2 done best and here it is for zvp
drops. not drops in the way you think, in fact i doubt most ppl think of zerg drops as gimicy or all in. in fact in a game that has been shifting toward aggressive zvt, in zvp drops allow that aggressive style to be continued in a way that isnt muta related.
the concept of drops is not to do damage but in fact to choose the location of the fight so that you may trade cost effectively which guess what is goal #1. lets do a few scenarios and lets go over a few timings
at around 10mins your avg collosi build has its first collosi and your avg blink tech is done. at 10mins your avg all in drop play can start as well. now for those that know protoss you dont actually have a massive army at this very point in the game and you are relying on the front of your base acting as a wall to be cost effective or even just not die vs a zerg. for any protoss going blink stalkers a speedling roach comp will do just fine. for any robo tech collosi will most likely beat you in a str8 up fight when range is done and a solid ground army meat shield exists and attacking them from the front. we will attempt to circumvent this via drops.
taldarim alter will be my example for the day.. very very open bottom area followed by a choke leading to the natural which is near impossible to break vs a good toss. our goal is to drop units into this wide area and quickly get to the choke. by doing this we can now basically contain a protoss within their own base. how does the protoss play to get his army cost effectively into his main from his natural to defend it? you also will say well wont he be able to hit the drop when u come in? the answer is no and this because good drop play involves a multi pronged attack as well as drops. if you look at the map of taldarim....
![[image loading]](http://s10.postimage.org/ji9ztlmad/Taldarim.jpg)
you see the standard location for walling off or just holding position on. as you can see simply attacking the front of the base is enough to force a protoss to respond. this is where i believe standard zerg play must start to happen. yes responding and droning proper works yes getting broods will always work but these are passive styles and what i believe the game needs is aggressive style as well to keep the game interesting. the goal now is to get potoss away from the bottom drop location and drop half your army in the base and then load the army in the front up and also drop that inside.
now 1 of 2 things will happen. they will have horrible multi task and lose the entire drone line to lings or they will fight you but no matter what you will absolutely have an advantage here. he will not have more then 1 collosi and no more collosi will be joining with his army now that you are in between the production structures and his army and he must go through a choke to get to you. your concave is all but assured at this point and isnt that all a humble zerg can ask for?
the second style of map that drops is good on will be of course a wall off map usually 3 gate but lets just say all that is static is 1 gate 1 pylon and 1 cyber....
![[image loading]](http://s8.postimage.org/ex2rykmep/Shattered_temple.jpg)
again same rules apply. a protoss will attempt to hold his front while you need broods to force him to fight you. by getting the protoss army to defend a frontal attack you get to drop the other half of your army in the back and i will now direct you to the peoples evidence #9 where we examine how small the choke is.... um very small its very very small the protoss must line up and congo line into your awaiting army and guess what this isnt going to do so hot likely hes going to lose some stuff as will you but guess what you want this you want them to trade armys with you even if you slighly lose out.
overall i wish to convey the point of these drops. it is not to win the game nor is this a strat . this is what imo should just be stanard attacking procedure in the midgame. the goal isnt even to WIN the fight tho most likely you will get something out of it since lings work over mineral lines pretty hard. the goal of this is to gain access to a favorable location of fighting while being aggressive but not costing you the game or being all in
rate/hate but if you hate ill prob cry im very sensitive... laddies... *wink* (only really hot laddies with low moral values tho...)
 
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you should use less CAPSLOCK. it makes your text appear rather agressive. also, you should never write FACT because all you say through that is "i will call you an idiot if you try to criticize the following sentence!", but it doesn't make that sentence a fact:
that FACT that you lose without a wall-off is because zerg can overrun you at 3 to 5 minutes into the game. When zerg has drops at 12 minutes, the wall-off has become fairly irrelevant usually.
And your other FACT, that you can snipe a unit less easily if a big army surrounds it has absolutely nothing to do with protoss tech, that goes for every single race and army. The only thing that makes protoss stand out stronger in this is that protoss can stack 3 layers of units (ground, colossi, air) instead of two (just ground + air) like the other races. But if there is an army of 20 archons and 1 immortal marching towards you, it's just as easy to snipe that one immortal as it would be if it was surrounded by 5 stalkers. The main difference is, that 20 archons means it's later in the game and the other army is likely very big too, which makes focusing single units just ineffective. But that's again not related to protoss, that's the same with any other army.
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so you said my facts are not facts then said they are facts just not facts that are purely protoss facts?
im confused.
the FACT that no army can beat zerglings without a walloff is a concept that continues through a game untill tech appears that prevents this such as stim medivac forcefields etc etc.
im simply stating this as backup proof that keeping tech LOW is preferable to having tech HIGH yes i use CAPS to emphasize my points sorry?
the goal of this concep is to attempt to have players try to keep this "my low tech beats your low tech" concept alive through the entire game or as much of the game as possible
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On December 06 2011 00:42 ohokurwrong wrote:
the FACT that no army can beat zerglings without a walloff is a concept that continues through a game untill tech appears that prevents this such as stim medivac forcefields etc etc.
but as zerg you get drops even later than force field / stim / medivac, that's my point. When you finally get drops, the wall-off is no longer as important. Of course drops at 5 minutes in the game would be a good thing to have, but you can't have that.
also no need to excuse, i just meant to inform you that your writing style makes reading the text a pain in the ass. If you want it to be this way, you may continue to do so, i don't mind 
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i do appreciate the advice about caps tho i cant write inflection so this has to do for now.
you are missing the point of this concept tho. it has NOTHING to do with the time you get drops and actually zerg drops can finish at 10mins easily but again i digress..
the concept is favorable aggressive attacks which allow the game to stay lower tech longer which better suits a zerg. im attempting to find a vid of stephano doing it and anyone else i can find but basically hes the only proper zerg playing the game atm style/strat wise so this concept is rare and the vids are even more rare
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United States22154 Posts
So, I take it that all the caps went into emphasis and forgot that they belong behind periods?
Frankly, I'll put stock into what you are saying (which amounts to "rush drops") when you can provide replays to prove it is viable. Otherwise it is entirely bullshit. You also assume that the protoss is doing a blink or colosi rush build, as opposed to say, a mass warp gate play or any other build that doesn't rely on turtling and teching. I'd go through and show why this entire post of theorycraft is no more than a castle of cards, but I don't particularly feel like it. The onus is on you OP, prove that this "style" of playing zerg is viable.
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just one remark on one aspect: constantly attacking only from 4 angles is not possible in my opinion, protoss players can always chose attack paths where its not possible and deny 1-2 angels with force fields...
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I would not say what you said are necessarily facts, since there a many variances per game. Nydus would work in a similar way.
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well i say show me a map where you cannot attack from 4 angles?
a zerg army is faster then a protoss army
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i hope this useless thread gets closed
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On December 06 2011 01:18 ohokurwrong wrote:
well i say show me a map where you cannot attack from 4 angles?
a zerg army is faster then a protoss army
Show me where you can viably attack from 3 angles on this map and I'll consider reading your post.
(Link)
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I have actually been experimenting a lot with drops and nydus play in ZvP and ZvT. I think Nydus' are really underused, especially to be able to attack and reinforce quickly on a huge map. The other day I did a 2 base ling/hydra attack on Tal'darim against a FFE, just by nydusing nearby. My macro was actually quite terrible (banked 2000 minerals, because I didn't have enough larvae for lings and spent all gas on hydras/overseers/nydus), but by attacking the front and then nydusing again in the back of his base, I was able to pick the P apart.
Luckily for me, he was going for a DT opening, so my 2-base play completely denied his harass and then morphing a few overseers at the point of attack made it super hard to defend against the hydras.
I am only mid-masters but it still worked quite well when executed rather terribly. I'm sure it would be different if my opponent had been going for colossi, but FFE into colossus would be pretty bad on Tal'darim I feel.
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On December 06 2011 01:32 .Sic. wrote:
i hope this useless thread gets closed
This is just a blog post! He's not posting a guide in the strategy forum or anything. Come on man!
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"the #1 goal in ANY zerg matchup SHOULD be to trade armys for as long as possible. "
No, not at all. Your #1 goal should be denying and taking expansions. This actually cannot be debated, as this is a game about resources.
Also try to cool your caps lock key a little bit, its starting to overheat. (in all honesty it makes your post a little more tedious on the eyes, try to stick to just being grammaticaly correct.)
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by trading armys you automatically deny expos since you cannot hold an expo without an army
as per usual people only believe what the pros do and as such ill be posting some vids to go along with this and then and only then will the visionless gain vision
and again caps why does caps matter lol
you need to not look at this as a strat is is not. you do all the normal things you do in a matchup just instead of a moving at a protoss with whatever manor of units and methods you employ drops to navigate the positioning issues that zergs can struggle with
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On December 06 2011 01:36 Cyber_Cheese wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 01:18 ohokurwrong wrote:
well i say show me a map where you cannot attack from 4 angles?
a zerg army is faster then a protoss army Show me where you can viably attack from 3 angles on this map and I'll consider reading your post. (Link)
also not all maps can have the perfect fight BUT just below the tower to the left or right of the gold base is a location you can absolutely do a multipronged attack as well as doing a drop in a main that has a small ramp which again goes with my concept
the point isnt "how easy is it to get my perfect flanks/rears but if its possible and if the answer is yes then you MUST do it as a zerg
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On December 06 2011 01:41 ohokurwrong wrote:
by trading armys you automatically deny expos since you cannot hold an expo without an army
as per usual people only believe what the pros do and as such ill be posting some vids to go along with this and then and only then will the visionless gain vision
and again caps why does caps matter lol
If caps really doesn't matter at all, you won't mind editing it out to make the OP more legible.
Aiming to consistently trade armies as #1 means you won't be aiming to expand at all, because you could work towards trading armies faster if you made army instead of bases. 6 pool with continuous ling reinforcements is an ideal strategy in this regard.
On December 06 2011 01:43 ohokurwrong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 01:36 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On December 06 2011 01:18 ohokurwrong wrote:
well i say show me a map where you cannot attack from 4 angles?
a zerg army is faster then a protoss army Show me where you can viably attack from 3 angles on this map and I'll consider reading your post. (Link) also not all maps can have the perfect fight BUT just below the tower to the left or right of the gold base is a location you can absolutely do a multipronged attack as well as doing a drop in a main that has a small ramp which again goes with my concept the point isnt "how easy is it to get my perfect flanks/rears but if its possible and if the answer is yes then you MUST do it as a zerg
A good toss would have got the tower before going to either of those locations, and seen that it was safe to move to another nearby 2 pronged location. Pros don't do it in a lot of situations because other pros don't give them the chance a lot of the time.
The best answer was probably the natural, but by the time flanks are really important, the game has gone on too long for it to be viable in most cases.
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On December 06 2011 01:46 Cyber_Cheese wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 01:41 ohokurwrong wrote:
by trading armys you automatically deny expos since you cannot hold an expo without an army
as per usual people only believe what the pros do and as such ill be posting some vids to go along with this and then and only then will the visionless gain vision
and again caps why does caps matter lol If caps really doesn't matter at all, you won't mind editing it out to make the OP more legible. Aiming to consistently trade armies as #1 means you won't be aiming to expand at all, because you could work towards trading armies faster if you made army instead of bases. 6 pool with continuous ling reinforcements is an ideal strategy in this regard. Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 01:43 ohokurwrong wrote:On December 06 2011 01:36 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On December 06 2011 01:18 ohokurwrong wrote:
well i say show me a map where you cannot attack from 4 angles?
a zerg army is faster then a protoss army Show me where you can viably attack from 3 angles on this map and I'll consider reading your post. (Link) also not all maps can have the perfect fight BUT just below the tower to the left or right of the gold base is a location you can absolutely do a multipronged attack as well as doing a drop in a main that has a small ramp which again goes with my concept the point isnt "how easy is it to get my perfect flanks/rears but if its possible and if the answer is yes then you MUST do it as a zerg A good toss would have got the tower before going to either of those locations, and seen that it was safe to move to another nearby 2 pronged location. Pros don't do it in a lot of situations because other pros don't give them the chance a lot of the time. The best answer was probably the natural, but by the time flanks are really important, the game has gone on too long for it to be viable in most cases.
the caps were to stress the points that matter because i find ppl perceive this as a strat rather then a way zerg should be played.
you talk about protoss owning a tower and going all in. who said going all in or not expanding how close minded can someone be? im just saying that you cant attack a protoss currently str8 up cost effectively but rather dropping can do this and as such should be the only methods of being aggressive. theres no reason you cannot drone after an attack of before and is this in no way all in.
please watch stephano lol hes the ONLY one who plays zerg differently then what was prev thought was how z plays. he will stay low gas low drones off multiple bases to get more ling production and be aggressive with trading armys. this concept ive had for a while but being im not a pro or pseudo pro like destiny i cannot bring light to this concept.
stephano HAS brought light to this concept. you totally disagree with what im saying but if i show you a video of stephano 100 percent destroying a protoss with aggressive drops i bet you change your tune which is sad because then you were unable to understand the concept yourself and only validate things through the exploits of those you perceive to be right. thus making you worthless....
there is not a single moment in any game where a flank is not worth doing. not a single one. the strength of the protoss army is the cone.
archons in front voids on top collosi in back. these things are constant and attacking the front of the cone is a foolish thing. attacking the sides weakens the protoss attack significantly
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On December 06 2011 01:36 Cyber_Cheese wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 01:18 ohokurwrong wrote:
well i say show me a map where you cannot attack from 4 angles?
a zerg army is faster then a protoss army Show me where you can viably attack from 3 angles on this map and I'll consider reading your post. (Link)
Actually Xel'naga Caverns is a favorite ZvP map for me -- I go mass roach + double upgrades + burrow + burrow move, and use the four attack paths to put constant pressure on the Protoss and deny their 3rd as I take my third and tech up while staying maxed on roaches. There are the 2 main entrances to the natural, the ramp coming from the third, and the secret hallway back door. If P ever tries to take their 3rd, you can attack from all directions with small groups of roaches.
This is just one possible way to use the multiple attack paths. I'm not claiming that this strategy is particularly good (it works in masters somewhat), or that what the OP is saying is all accurate. I'm just agreeing with the OP's claim that there are almost always multiple attack paths.
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protoss does better on xelnaga because it harder to attack multiple angles and easier to forcefield the multiple choke locations so while you are agreeing with me i actually do not agree with you on that point
also this doesnt work in masters "somewhat" this works in gm all the time
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EPT
