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What really pisses me off about the circle jerk that is pro Starcraft right now, is not that it's an old boys club (in the words of Kennigit). It really makes me rage is how all these old boys actively shit on people who don't have a name for themselves yet. I know this phrase is being used to describe how everyone working on the 'journalism' side of Starcraft has a vested interest in what they are reporting on but It also seems like these are the only people who are allowed to talk badly about a tournament, if you say something in a stream chat or in the thread, you are often actively mocked by the hosts. This isn't what the rise of interactivity is for. plenty of people make stupid comments, but no more so than the hosts of these shows. I'm quite disappointed about how it has become so acceptable to shit so hard on people who are just showing how much they care.
Every show fronted by the names we see everywhere, as far as I can see, takes time in to their shows to take a dump on anyone who criticizes anything, ever. Somehow the arguments that 'we are trying really hard' 'you get to watch for free' or just the standard 'don't watch it if you don't like it' have been given credence as if they make any kind of sense.
You get to watch it free
What?! Are you trying to 'sell' me your product or not? Are you making me watch adverts? Are you making money out of doing this? Damn right you are. If you want me to ingest your product so that you can do what you love, and get paid to do it, you can put on a product worth watching. If I don't think what your doing a good job I have two options, I can tell you how to improve or I can fuck off and watch something else, which would you rather? If you have any sense you want to do a better job, keep my eyes on the stream and maybe attract some more. What the fuck is this idea that because I think that you can do a better job I'm suddenly some over entitled ass hole? tv around the world is free to watch, and yet there's a thread on every popular show on Teamliquid as well as fan clubs galore where people debate how good each episode is; whether they like the script or the acting. does anyone ever tell you to stop bitching about that? No, so why is it acceptable in here?
Don't watch it if you don't like it.
Are you kidding me? The fact this has even been said with a straight face baffles me. You put all this time, effort and money in to this product and you don't mind if viewers just don't watch? Has any business ever turned around and said "well ok then, bye" I'm struggling to to even put in to words how stupid this is for a business to think. Are you going to make a change based on every little comment you get? No, that would be stupid. Are you going to tell people that you don't care what they say and that they should just leave? Hell no. I thought it was PR 101 just to tell your customer that you are listening and evaluating all feedback, no obligation but it also makes your viewer feel valued.
I hate to hate on people who try hard, and to be honest I'm not. What im hating on is that trying hard is relevant to your product. Does how hard you try and things matter to your friends? Yes, its why they like you. Does how hard you try matter to sponsors? Yes, they need to know you will fix problems and continue to work for them next time. Does it matter to your viewer how hard you work? Not the tiniest bit. All that matters to your viewer is the final product, if you put that out in 30 seconds without the tiniest flaw great, oh it took you a week of post production? Well isn't that nice. You are selling a product and running a business. survival of the fittest doesn't care who is trying hard.
raeg
 
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I don't experience it the way you do i guess but your points are valid, shitting on people because they are complaining when stuff sucks is pretty stupid and should be called out as such.
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The problem here is that the people representing are often times not the people responsible or even officially representing..
If "esports company X"(for example: twitchtv) has issues, some pro or casters comes up and says "DON'T HATE GUYS YOU'RE IDIOTS!", while "esports company X" admits that they have issues and try to fix it. But this will only be a comment on screddit, the pro player bashing on the community will be all over the internet though and bring "esports company X" into a bad light.
You should just ignore most of these guys. If somebody, for no reason whatsoever, goes apeshit and says "YOU'RE ALL IDIOTS APPRECIATE WHAT YOU HAVE AND WHAT YOU GET", just ignore it. He's in no way representing what he thinks to represent, and the ones that are truly representing are way nicer about the topic but not as loud as him.
As two "Why does it work?"
There are two factors that come into mind:
1) Time. Most of them were the first and they are in the scene the longest, so many people know them and recognize them
2) Volume. Because of their time spent in the community, their "voices" became really loud. If some of these guys was to say something, hundreds of people will repeat, post and retweet it etc.
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You seem to forget that this is the internet. For every person that actually puts content out there, theres 1000 opinioned assholes that want to chime in their 2 cents. I mean if would want somebody to commentate on what i do, i would make a thread about it. (Huskys MLG threads are a good example). I can see how being told what to do by someone you dont know and have no affection for whatsoever can be frustrating.
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The fact that you didn't provide a single concrete example made it extremely hard to parse out exactly what you're talking about.
What it really boils down to is whether or not you have a legitimate and compelling argument when you complain. If you look at all the shit that's thrown at the "old boys' club" most of it is undeserved one liners thrown around by entitled 14 year olds who have no idea what they're talking about. The next time you watch streamed tournaments on Twitch open the chat and read through it. Sheer retardation by the thousands. That shit is heavily moderated on TL. That shit is also the reason why casters and players band together against whiners and basters, because most of it isn't called for.
If you look carefully tournament organizers and other major players in the community do respond to legitimate concerns. The best casters are always looking for ways to improve themselves. Husky posts a thread asking for criticism after every major event he casts. Moletrap has improved a shitload in the GSL in response to a lot of criticism. Tournaments responded to Cloud when he posted about players not getting paid, causing a major shitstorm.
People listen if you actually have something worthwhile to listen to, but it becomes difficult when they need to wade through a ton of depressing and distracting shit to sort out what is worthwhile.
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On November 30 2011 20:52 Newbistic wrote:
The fact that you didn't provide a single concrete example made it extremely hard to parse out exactly what you're talking about.
What it really boils down to is whether or not you have a legitimate and compelling argument when you complain. If you look at all the shit that's thrown at the "old boys' club" most of it is undeserved one liners thrown around by entitled 14 year olds who have no idea what they're talking about. The next time you watch streamed tournaments on Twitch open the chat and read through it. Sheer retardation by the thousands. That shit is heavily moderated on TL. That shit is also the reason why casters and players band together against whiners and basters, because most of it isn't called for.
Show hosts and other people (whether it's hosts, players, casters, organizers etc) should be able to identify solid criticism and filter it out from all the trash, and address THAT rather than the trash. Instead, it is noticeable that many of them prefer to just throw blanket statements that are replies to the actual trash comments (because it's easier) - thus not only ignoring the valid criticism because it's inconvenient, but also giving people who post trash validity and attention.
For example, in the recent thread about Dreamhack's, shall we say, scheduling issues - the blanket response a lot of people gave was something along the lines of:
"Well you think DH is only there for SC2, but it isn't" and "You think all the other games and communities suck, you're an idiot"
Even though neither of these really addresses the actual problems people bring up and try to explain. This is most notable of guys like Wheat and particularly Slasher, the latter of which ended his recent show with something like "you people can go die in fire". Actually I'm not sure if that's where it ended, but it is where I stopped watching.
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You make some good points, but you're taking it too far.
I think something to watch out for is new people who are trying to make a name for themselves not because they love SC2 but because there's good money to be had. Some people were relatively unknown before their SC2 casting and they were highly passionate BW and SC2 fans. I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about the random Joe Halos who decided they want to cast to make money. These are the people you should address. I feel there's enough of a community internally among the passionate casters / "old boys" for most of your personal feedback to be redundant.
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I think it's really interesting that Kennigit brought up this Old Boys Club idea, and it carries a lot of truth.
What worries me is the community jumping on this and saying, "Oh, the evil Old Boys Club are the exact thing that's keeping us normal-guy community members from being as famous as them!" It's OccupyESPORTS mentality (just an example based on my opinion in case it helps, let's avoid political discussion).
Look at Mr. Bitter. Was he in the Old Boys Club? No. How did he get there, then? He literally paid pros to coach him live on stream, even sometimes when they probably would've been willing to do it for free. He didn't complain about pros and hosts and casters looking down on him. He invited them into his circle in order to produce content.
And THEN, he went and competed at an MLG, and made an extra effort to get to know all of the main community figures. It was a competition as well as a networking event for him, based on my understanding.
From there he's become a community fixture. I think that when we talk about this Old Boys Club idea, Mr. Bitter provides an excellent example as to how to break in.
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Huh, there's an Old Boys Club? Brb searching.
Can you link me to where it is? Curious about it.
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We do get to watch it for free. The money they get doesn't come from us (directly) it comes from the advertisers/sponsors, so I don't really understand your argument there.
The reason they say 'if you don't like it don't watch it' is because frankly the majority of the comments are sensationalized shit that is ridiculous. It's not like they're saying they couldn't improve or they don't need to. They always point out good constructive stuff. Also, there are plenty of business organizations that say "well okay then, bye." Some cell phone providers kick off the people who use their customer service too often periodically because it isn't worth the cost.
Point is, if you're saying something you're getting for free is shit without providing constructive rational level headed advice you're stupid and they have every right to make fun of you. Don't watch it if you have something better to do with your time until they fix whatever you have a huge issue with, that's the motivation people have to improve things.
No organization has ever said they don't have room to improve.
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Calgary25991 Posts
Examples of old boys shitting on new boys please. I have no experience with this and I feel like it's something that happened twice and you're making this blog based on that.
What I have seen happen, is that they rebut ridiculous criticism. You realize there is so much criticism that if they took a dump on anyone who criticised them, as you suggest, the show would only be "rebuttals to criticism"?
You get to watch it for free
This is rebuttal to the criticism that "You people making content should work significantly harder." This is saying that it's not fair for someone investing nothing (okay, your time, big deal) to demand significant effort out of the product.
Don't watch it
This is a rebuttal to ridiculous criticism. The idea is that your criticism is so niche and unique, that if everybody with that criticism simply didn't watch, the viewership would be largely unaffected and the community would be happier in general.
Pretty much common sense. You sound really angry, unjustifiably, about nothing.
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^Old boy detected, but more or less what I feel.
Ugh I got so duped by Fake Chill at Providence...
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EPT
