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As some of you may know, I wrote a blog last week entitled "At Microsoft" that described my experience at Microsoft's Redmond, Washington campus. You can find it here. Today I spent four hours interviewing at Google's Mountain View, California campus. It is a story of excitement, stress, despair, longing, death, life, love, hate, new beginnings, old beginnings, and ultimately defeat (maybe). Here is the tale.
Getting There
As I stated in my first blog (here), Google gave me a call saying they would like to fly me out to Mountain View on Tuesday, Nov 1 and I almost shit myself, yada-yada. The plan was for me to fly out the Thursday following my Microsoft interview. Not quite. I didn't even find out when my interview was until that Thursday (Nov 10), and it was the following Monday (Nov 14). So I filled out all the paperwork that night and hoped that I could find a flight. 2 days in advance.
I called the travel agency Google uses, and luckily was able to find a flight, but only just barely, and I basically had to waste 3 hours flying to, and waiting at, Dallas (keep in mind Dallas is in the WRONG FUCKING DIRECTION). But I made it work, and got a bit further into my book (A Clash of Kings, fuck yeah GRRM) so things were okay.
The flight from Dallas to San Jose was actually a pretty great one. It was long, but I sat next to an interesting individual who works for Samsung, used to be a Software Engineer, and switched out of it to get his MBA and become more of an interface between the market and the engineers. The view was also phenomenal. I got to see the Grand Canyon for like a second before a cloud positioned itself dickheadedly between the plane and the entire canyon. By the time the cloud was gone, so too was the canyon. Also I got to see the Rocky Mountains, which was just enthralling. I'm looking forward to that on the flight back.
CALI, BABY~~
When I got into San Jose's airport, I was brimming with excitement to see Silicon Valley. The airport was quite beautiful and picking up my rental was a breeze. Everything up to this point was still handled well by Google and their travel agency, so points to them. I got a light blue Nissan Versa (this thing) which I just thought was a pretty cute little car. It handles well and is pretty fun to drive, but honestly it looks goofy as hell.
Heading out, I got a nice scenic view of the valley (I saw Nvidia!) and I didn't almost die like in Seattle. So things were going well so far. Got to the hotel problem-free, got my room key, and unloaded my junk in my room. The room's nice, two beds, lot of desk space, accessible outlets, free internet. No real complaints aside from low water pressure in the shower, and fuck low water pressure.
A friend of my girlfriend lives in San Francisco who also works at Google, and let's call him Ricardo to spice things up a bit, so I got in contact with him a couple weeks before this point, and he seemed cool to hang out with in SF. Within a couple hours I was back out on the road heading to SF proper. Sweet, I get to see some of one of the biggest, hippest metro areas in the US!
The Horrors of Driving in San Francisco
I didn't do a whole lot of studying up on the SF area and where I was in relation to the actual city, so I was a bit surprised that it was going to take about an hour to get to the corner where I was to park and meet up with Ricardo. But hey whatever, commuting can be fun. It wasn't fun man. I'm not a very strong driver to begin with because I've fallen out of practice, and this is one of the most crowded areas in the US to live so it just took forever to get anywhere on the highway.
Then I got into the actual city and I would like to have a word with whoever designed some of these intersections. I got to an exit that basically turns into this awful hook where if you don't KNOW it's coming you won't be able to get in the right lane to turn and the GPS is giving me all kinds of fucked up directions. So I'm getting that feeling like "oh dear." This compounds with the fact that my phone is about to die.
This compounds with the fact that Ricardo gave me a pretty general area of where this parking garage is (around 16th and Valencia) and I realize I don't know the first place to look. I begin making blocks and looking about for where he might mean, but now I'm starting to panic because I have no phone, and no idea where I am in a huge city. Eventually I find the place but I'm starting to get pretty strung out.
Ricardo and I meet up and head over to a nearby sushi place (sushi is amazing). We order and chat about various things. The area, what he does for Google, etc. Sushi comes and goes fairly quickly afterwards (sushi is amazing) and he offers to ask me some mock interview questions. Cool, great idea, I need the practice. They were good questions, and way above the quality of questions I normally am asked, so I felt a little overwhelmed and intimidated, but I was interested. Overall it was a good night even though I was really really exhausted by the time I had to drive back.
Made it back okay, and got some good sleep preparing for my next day.
On Campus
I woke up this morning at about 7:00 am PST, and my interviews weren't until 10:30 am, so I had a good bit of time to eat, shower, dress, and get to campus. All occurred uneventfully, so I'll breeze through that.
Parking was an utter pain in the ass, but I ended up finding a spot reserved for interview candidates. I headed inside, printed my nametag, and socialized with some of the other candidates for a bit. I wasn't feeling the same airy optimism as I did in Redmond, at all. I knew the interviews would be crushing, and I would come out the other end feeling like dogshit unworthy of graduating, let alone getting a job at Google. I was shaking a bit and just hoping that I would be more focused during the actual interview, as I usually am.
The recruiter called for me and we took a bit of a browse through the building, not really getting into the cubicle areas but more of a kind of "here's a little kitchen, here's an exercise room, here's a cafe, etc." Just bouncing between buildings for the most part, until we landed in the area that would be my first interview room. She handed me a very nice little duffel bag with some schwag in it and I sat down with my first interviewer.
Just to clarify, the structure of Google interviews is two back-to-back 45-minute interviews (no break), an hour of lunch, and then two more back-to-back 45 minute interviews.
Interview One
We introduce ourselves, shake hands, and I sit down. About the second sentence he says to me is "alright we're going to start with a coding problem." Oh god. Already? Can I talk about how much I like computers first? How about you ask me what excites me in life? No. Fuck you, Mitchell, you've got to work for this.
Despite it all, I hammer the first problem to death and feel pretty good about myself. Then he says "well this is inefficient, we need to make it better." And I'm just absolutely drawing a blank on how, but eventually I work through it with a few hints and a lot of sweat. The next problem I really didn't know how to do and he stopped me because we were running low on time, but the answer was fairly straightforward and I just didn't see it. I made it into a problem that was more difficult than it should have been and I felt foolish.
The last problem was honestly quite ill-defined. I knew how to solve it intuitively, but he led me to believe that I needed to be careful about bounds issues, so I waffled a bit and didn't give him my answer after all. Turned out, my answer (in my head) was the answer he was looking for, even though the problem would never work in a practical sense because of the bounds issues I had asked about earlier. I offered a counterexample where the answer he wanted wouldn't work and he said "it's just a thought experiment." So I was upset about that.
The entire 45 minutes were spent on coding problems, so I didn't get to ask him any questions at the end. But honestly I did like the guy so don't take my complaints about the guy to mean he did a shitty job overall.
Interview Two
This didn't go terribly bad. The problem dealt with trees, which scare the shit out of me, and recursion, the reason why trees scare the shit out of me, so I expected to crash and burn.
It was a two-part problem, and I got the first problem such that he and I were convinced that it worked. And it employed a bit of a depth-first search kind of algorithm so I felt pretty damn smart. All was well. Then I realized during the second part, that a critical problem lurked, such that my answer would work but would be much more difficult during the second part. I couldn't finish it up before we were running low on time so we moved on to my questions.
That took the wind out of my sails for interview two. 
Lunch!
From here, I met up with my lunch "interviewer" (he doesn't submit feedback, nor ask questions) and we headed over to one of the many cafes located at Google. Keep in mind eating at these cafes is FREE for employees. Breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Free.
We decided Asian. I got a full plate of rice, some other kind of grain, some type of vegetable, noodles of some sort, grilled chicken and spinach, kimchi (<3), and sushi rolls. I wish I could be more specific about the kind of food but I had no idea what it was. It just looked good.
We found a place to sit, and talked about Google, Austin, San Francisco, what he liked about the company, what he disliked, training as a new recruit, and what I am interested in working on at Google. It went well. Probably because he didn't ask me any hard questions. The food was great and I could see losing a lot of weight working at Google, because it's so easy to get access to good, healthy food.
Unfortunately it came to an end, and I had to go back to being under the gun for the next hour and a half.
Interview Three
This was a disaster. I walk into the interview room and there are two people. One is my interviewer, the other guy is shadowing him. So I was going to make myself look like a fool in front of two people.
The first question was an absolute monster. It didn't seem like it would be bad and I decided to use Python to code it up because that just made the most sense at the time. But when I got into the actual coding it just blew me away how many corner cases there were. I think I can think of 5 or 6 just off the top of my head. I wrote as much as I could before he said we had to move on, and he pretty much said that my code had a lot of holes in it.
The next question was just describing the complexity of a problem, and it was a nice brain teaser but it was a concept that my brain just refused to comprehend. Looking back on it I feel like I could explain it better but I was terrified, stressed, and in a bit of interview despair. I actually want to take some time at the end of this post to describe my encounters with this thing I like to call "interview despair." I asked them each what they do at Google, and it was time for my final interview.
Interview Four
This was a breath of fresh air I think. He recognized that I had been asked a lot of coding questions (5 so far) and decided to ask me more conceptual questions. The first involved me playing a little game on his laptop, and finding a way to represent the problem in a way that could be solved by a computer.
I recognized the problem as a graph-theoretical construct, and described how it could be interpreted as such. Then he asked me how we would use that to come to solve the game. I knew of the type of algorithm that would do it, but was having a hard time mapping it to the specific problem, and he seemed understanding of that fact.
The next question was totally open-ended. Like a type of problem Google is able to attempt, but only because they have the resources (both computing and data) to be able to do. It was all about applying heuristics to a lot of unstructured (maybe semi-structured, I don't know the difference all that much) data, and making a lot of assumptions, to mold this data into something coherent and useful to an end-user. With each new heuristic I proposed, he asked me what type of problem could arise from it, and how we could minimize the problem. That involved using another heuristic, usually.
I think this question was really to show to me the type of difficult, down-the-rabbit-hole kind of questions that Google attempts to answer. How something sort of simple, like relevant videos, or top news stories, or relevant ads, can be so difficult to even wrap your head around, but Google attempts it every day. It gave me an appreciation for what they do.
But...
After my last interviewer showed me out of the building, I started thinking, and thinking. I began getting quite upset, as I came to a hard realization. I drove around a little, and parked in a McDonald's parking lot and just kind of sat there.
As Google has lived its life as a company, they've time and time again showed me that they make excellent products. I grew to love them and what they do. Their impact on the computing world has become evident in many domains. Gmail, Chrome, Google search, Google Reader, Android, Google Docs, Google Maps. The list goes on. Each is considered by a good number of people to be the best in their respective fields. I wanted so badly to be a part of that.
But in that car, following a grueling and painful day of interviews, I realized that Google is able to do this because they hire very, very smart people. People that can wrap their heads around these big problems, boil them down to something manageable, and provide the users with something good. People that are the best.
And I'm not the best.
Final Words
I called my girlfriend, and my mom, and told them each about the day a little bit. I told them I didn't do very well. That I had indeed been crushed, but worse off than I think I had anticipated. I didn't see an offer on the horizon. I even told my girlfriend that I thought it would be a mistake on their end if they decided to offer me a job. I met with Ricardo, and told him about the situation over some very good coffee. He listened, and lifted my spirits a bit although I was still upset.
I'm doing better now, and I don't know if I believe what I was saying anymore. But I wanted to capture the feelings I had, as they happened.
I headed home afterwards, intent on two things. One, to take a shower because I was pretty gross. And two, to write about my day.
So here it is. You'll hear about the results when I do, TL. Thanks for reading.
A note about interview despair
I don't know if this is a common occurrence during interviews, but I have had these feelings before. Today it happened once or twice but I fought hard. At Microsoft it happened two or three times, and I fought even harder. Microsoft was more difficult because I had felt from the get-go that things were going very well and then I hit road blocks that dug great wells that were a struggle to climb out of.
What I label "interview despair" is the acute perception that you can't solve a problem. That the ability to come to terms with the question given forth is just one iota out of reach and there is nothing you can do about it. It is the feeling of your heart growing smaller and icy cold in panic, that you are moments from giving up entirely, or leaving the room, or just breaking down in a way most unfitting of an interview candidate. That your future prospects at working for this company is vanishing before your eyes, and you just aren't smart enough to stop it.
But so far I haven't given in. I just calmly look at the board, rubbing my chin, asking clarifying questions until the hold breaks and dissipates.
I would greatly like to hear if this is a familiar feeling for people. I guess it is similar to a small panic attack, so I would assume it has happened to others, but I want to hear some stories, if you'd share.
(3000+ words. Cool. :D)
EDIT:
On November 18 2011 08:30 Triscuit wrote:
Just got a call earlier. Google decided not to extend me an offer. That's okay though, when I was there I became very concerned that the work culture was not what I was looking for in a company. I think maybe Google wasn't a very good fit for me on a personal level, just as maybe the San Francisco Bay area might not have been a good fit for me on a personal level either.
I think overall Microsoft is a better fit for me, but I wanted to prove to myself that I have what it takes to be offered a job at Google. I'm not going to take the rejection very hard, I'm mostly just excited for what my future holds.
Thanks for reading, everybody. I am going to be writing a blog pretty soon (maybe over Thanksgiving) about what it's like to be a CS major at a university that's considered to be pretty tough (University of Texas at Austin). It's going to be long, maybe twice the length or more of my previous blogs. Hopefully that doesn't turn too many people away. <3
 
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How long did it take from them getting your resume to them getting in touch with you?
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On November 15 2011 12:49 SlimeBagly wrote:
How long did it take from them getting your resume to them getting in touch with you?
Maybe a little under a month from application to my phone interviews? And then like two weeks after that I got the call. I'd have to look at a calendar to figure out exactly when, though.
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Braavos36372 Posts
But in that car, following a grueling and painful day of interviews, I realized that Google is able to do this because they hire very, very smart people. People that can wrap their heads around these big problems, boil them down to something manageable, and provide the users with something good. People that are the best.
And I'm not the best.
There's a moment in a lot of people's lives where a realization like this comes crashing down on top of them. If it's true, it usually it means you're at least at a point where you've achieved enough success to "touch" that level of people.
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Wow, your definiton of Interview Despair sounds like my entire software development course. I knew the answers conceptually but goddamn I can't code for shit.
You may not be the best, but you're a hell of a lot better than most. No small feat getting interviews to two of the largest software developers in the world.
Congrats, and hey there is always Microsoft 
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ty for writing these blogs, i really enjoy reading them :D. You put a lot of effort in them, so just wanted to give some credit
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this sounds like a great life experience, and dealing with pressure is one of the things that many interviewers inquire / pay attention to (easier when they can give you programming problems to work with).
that feeling of the job opportunity slipping away is one that many have to work against (so to speak). many people i know have different attitudes about dealing with them, some do mental exercises, some do meditation, some have a small chant they use when they think unproductive thoughts rather than wallow in them. but regardless of how you deal with it, almost anything is preferable to straying to more negative thoughts.
very nice blog though! amazing experiences from a no doubt amazing guy 
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so i guess your going to be working at microsoft 
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United States1654 Posts
Great read, hope all goes for the best!
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Adding the word dickheadedly into my vocabulary, i tip my hat to you sir.
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Really like these providing insights into that profession, its very interesting to me  keep doing em
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It sounds like you did well. Like you said, they just want to see how you approach and think your way through a problem, and how well you handle 'interview despair'. Thanks for the insightful posts!
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Thanks guys~
I would also like to say I won't be distributing any of the questions via PM. Sorry about that. I know a lot of people were hoping to get insight into those kind of questions, but I don't want to take any risks. Maybe if they turn me down I'll divulge.
EDIT: Also a special thank you to Hot_Bid. :D I don't consider myself Google quality, but I guess someone thought I was pretty close, to give me the opportunity to come out here.
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On November 15 2011 12:58 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +But in that car, following a grueling and painful day of interviews, I realized that Google is able to do this because they hire very, very smart people. People that can wrap their heads around these big problems, boil them down to something manageable, and provide the users with something good. People that are the best.
And I'm not the best. There's a moment in a lot of people's lives where a realization like this comes crashing down on top of them. If it's true, it usually it means you're at least at a point where you've achieved enough success to "touch" that level of people.
This is really good advice HB. I'm not in the same position as Triscuit but man that sure would cheer me up.
Also, please keep making more of these blogs as your adventure to find a job in this field continues. I have REALLY enjoyed them.
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Great blogs. I would love for an opportunity to work for Google, and I know they receive like 2000 applications a day, but one can dream, right?
glgl
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I only get "interview despair" on behavioral questions >>;;
I dunno, for technical problems I tend to try to treat them as all problems I run across: Figure out different ways I can tackle the problem, and focus on getting the answer rather than how I'm performing.
Anyways, I don't think you should feel too bad about your Google interview. I tend to not like to think about interviews after them cause it doesn't really affect the outcome, and you're only gonna stress about it. A lot of times you feel like you did badly but end up getting it and vise versa, so who really knows.
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Great read another great job. Really interesting to hear your stories about these interviews. That feeling of not being good enough is tough to deal with but one can only hope for the best. I applied for there summer internship for next year hoping to hear back from them about that. But i am in the same boat looking at what they do and the people who do it, they want the best people and i just don't feel up to the task. Either way i tossed my hat into the ring and what ever happens happens. I hope you hear from them soon good luck and congratz again on the microsoft offer that no small achievement remember that!
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On November 15 2011 14:30 Snipinpanda wrote:
I only get "interview despair" on behavioral questions >>;;
I dunno, for technical problems I tend to try to treat them as all problems I run across: Figure out different ways I can tackle the problem, and focus on getting the answer rather than how I'm performing.
Anyways, I don't think you should feel too bad about your Google interview. I tend to not like to think about interviews after them cause it doesn't really affect the outcome, and you're only gonna stress about it. A lot of times you feel like you did badly but end up getting it and vise versa, so who really knows.
Yeah, part of me hopes they turn me down because that will make my life so much easier. If they say they want to hire me, then I have to decide Google in SF area, or Microsoft in Seattle area. And that decision will probably stick with me for the rest of my life.
Yeah, I think I'd rather have others just make decisions for me.
E:
@Noev
Good luck man, I know from experience Google has the toughest interviews out of all of them, so expect it to be really really rough. But I know a couple people at least that have made it through the process, so I know it's at least possible.
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On November 15 2011 14:44 Triscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 14:30 Snipinpanda wrote:
I only get "interview despair" on behavioral questions >>;;
I dunno, for technical problems I tend to try to treat them as all problems I run across: Figure out different ways I can tackle the problem, and focus on getting the answer rather than how I'm performing.
Anyways, I don't think you should feel too bad about your Google interview. I tend to not like to think about interviews after them cause it doesn't really affect the outcome, and you're only gonna stress about it. A lot of times you feel like you did badly but end up getting it and vise versa, so who really knows. Yeah, part of me hopes they turn me down because that will make my life so much easier. If they say they want to hire me, then I have to decide Google in SF area, or Microsoft in Seattle area. And that decision will probably stick with me for the rest of my life. Yeah, I think I'd rather have others just make decisions for me. E: @Noev Good luck man, I know from experience Google has the toughest interviews out of all of them, so expect it to be really really rough. But I know a couple people at least that have made it through the process, so I know it's at least possible.
Haha, it does feel good though, knowing you have an offer from a place you want to work at already right?
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But hey, you still have Microsoft's offer, right?
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United States10328 Posts
sad to hear about that. I didn't even dare re-apply for a Google internship this year after failing last year (though they invited me to apply again, I realized I'm too incompetent, at least for now, to work there.) Clearly you know a fair amount about coding and algorithms [and hard work!], so you should do fine wherever you end up working
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I'm feeling a bit better now. I figure I'm not worthy of it, but that is something I'm willing to work on. If I do get an offer, I might even consider taking it as more of a challenge to my person than anything. I think I am really capable of a lot more than I give myself credit for but I need something that I'm seriously passionate about to unlock that. I worry a bit that I won't find something like that though.
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Cool per usual, I enjoy your "voice" in reflection. Humbling no?
I loled when you mentioned driving sf. I live about an hour away, go there every now and then to see grandparents, it's pretty hectic. Unfortunately it's also where I want to move for a job next year, but it'll be public transportation and walking for me for sure haha
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Man I went to an interview once where I totally thought I could easily get the job. But all the sudden I became so nervous (which is weird because I don't usually get nervous) and fumbled words, used a lot of vague beat around the bush answers, etc. I probably looked like a tweaker to these people and I just totally blew it.
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Very good read, makes me realize how I know nothing about work life.
Did you consider other companies? What about famous start-ups?
There's many potentially awesome workplaces in Silicon Valley I feel like.
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Man, I figured more people would be interested in the Google interviews. Maybe that's the difference between being spotlighted and not.
@SpoR: Yeah, and I'm sure as it was happening you were thinking "what the fuck am I doing?" and yet you were powerless to stop it.
@fanta[Rn] I interviewed with a lot of companies. Only one was sort of a start-up, but not really. Optaros, Riverbed, Sandia National Labs, Lockheed Martin, Tata Consultancy Services (TCS), ShoreTel (received offer), Microsoft (received offer), and now Google. I think the only startup sort of company out of those is Optaros, but it might be far along enough to not really be considered a start up.
I think a lot of the very start-up companies weren't really all that interested in me because I am not graduating until May 2012, so that puts a long time between when they decide to hire me, and when I actually start contributing to the company, and I think startups have less infrastructure set down to really handle that gap efficiently.
Plus, if I get into a startup, I want it to be after I've had a bit of experience so I'm able to pull my own weight sooner. Good question though, I hadn't really thought too hard about the startup possibility.
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Good Luck!
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Amazing read, just like your Microsoft blog. I really appreciate this kind of genuine insight into the process and I'm sure many others do to. I hope you get an invite from Google as well, that way you won't be let off easy
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Cool, I was wondering when we might see the Google part of this series!
On November 15 2011 12:48 Triscuit wrote:
But in that car, following a grueling and painful day of interviews, I realized that Google is able to do this because they hire very, very smart people. People that can wrap their heads around these big problems, boil them down to something manageable, and provide the users with something good. People that are the best.
And I'm not the best.
As someone who also just recently graduated college, I can relate really well with how you are feeling. A lot.
And I'm not half as qualified as you lol, I'm a liberal arts major with 4 years experience in IT. I feel like I'm stuck between jobs that want someone with a 4.0 GPA in rocket science and a slew of shitty jobs. But I always come back to wondering if working at some place like Google is really worth all the effort. Sure there's free time and free food, but at the end of the day I want a job where I can pick up my check and go home. :/
What I label "interview despair" is the acute perception that you can't solve a problem. That the ability to come to terms with the question given forth is just one iota out of reach and there is nothing you can do about it. It is the feeling of your heart growing smaller and icy cold in panic, that you are moments from giving up entirely, or leaving the room, or just breaking down in a way most unfitting of an interview candidate. That your future prospects at working for this company is vanishing before your eyes, and you just aren't smart enough to stop it.
A couple of times now I've wanted to call back companies and just ask them, "what is it you want exactly? I'm super smart, can work really hard, and meet all of your qualifications? What are you holding out for, a friggin rocket scientist?!!" But then I have to remember that with the shitty economy, the are people with like x2 the experience and education as myself going after the same jobs. Just sucks balls.
But good luck anyway!
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On November 16 2011 04:08 TheToast wrote:Cool, I was wondering when we might see the Google part of this series! Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 12:48 Triscuit wrote:
But in that car, following a grueling and painful day of interviews, I realized that Google is able to do this because they hire very, very smart people. People that can wrap their heads around these big problems, boil them down to something manageable, and provide the users with something good. People that are the best.
And I'm not the best.
As someone who also just recently graduated college, I can relate really well with how you are feeling. A lot. And I'm not half as qualified as you lol, I'm a liberal arts major with 4 years experience in IT. I feel like I'm stuck between jobs that want someone with a 4.0 GPA in rocket science and a slew of shitty jobs. But I always come back to wondering if working at some place like Google is really worth all the effort. Sure there's free time and free food, but at the end of the day I want a job where I can pick up my check and go home. :/ Show nested quote +
What I label "interview despair" is the acute perception that you can't solve a problem. That the ability to come to terms with the question given forth is just one iota out of reach and there is nothing you can do about it. It is the feeling of your heart growing smaller and icy cold in panic, that you are moments from giving up entirely, or leaving the room, or just breaking down in a way most unfitting of an interview candidate. That your future prospects at working for this company is vanishing before your eyes, and you just aren't smart enough to stop it.
A couple of times now I've wanted to call back companies and just ask them, "what is it you want exactly? I'm super smart, can work really hard, and meet all of your qualifications? What are you holding out for, a friggin rocket scientist?!!" But then I have to remember that with the shitty economy, the are people with like x2 the experience and education as myself going after the same jobs. Just sucks balls. But good luck anyway!
Job market for software engineering isn't bad right now. There are a lot of tech companies hiring people out of college I dunno about IT though.
I don't really get what you're saying about whether or not Google is worth it. I'm not sure what you're trying to imply about the work there?
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On November 15 2011 16:11 Triscuit wrote:
I'm feeling a bit better now. I figure I'm not worthy of it, but that is something I'm willing to work on. If I do get an offer, I might even consider taking it as more of a challenge to my person than anything. I think I am really capable of a lot more than I give myself credit for but I need something that I'm seriously passionate about to unlock that. I worry a bit that I won't find something like that though.
That's the key to it all. Passion unlocks and taps into potential.
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On November 16 2011 04:30 Snipinpanda wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 04:08 TheToast wrote:Cool, I was wondering when we might see the Google part of this series! On November 15 2011 12:48 Triscuit wrote:
But in that car, following a grueling and painful day of interviews, I realized that Google is able to do this because they hire very, very smart people. People that can wrap their heads around these big problems, boil them down to something manageable, and provide the users with something good. People that are the best.
And I'm not the best.
As someone who also just recently graduated college, I can relate really well with how you are feeling. A lot. And I'm not half as qualified as you lol, I'm a liberal arts major with 4 years experience in IT. I feel like I'm stuck between jobs that want someone with a 4.0 GPA in rocket science and a slew of shitty jobs. But I always come back to wondering if working at some place like Google is really worth all the effort. Sure there's free time and free food, but at the end of the day I want a job where I can pick up my check and go home. :/
What I label "interview despair" is the acute perception that you can't solve a problem. That the ability to come to terms with the question given forth is just one iota out of reach and there is nothing you can do about it. It is the feeling of your heart growing smaller and icy cold in panic, that you are moments from giving up entirely, or leaving the room, or just breaking down in a way most unfitting of an interview candidate. That your future prospects at working for this company is vanishing before your eyes, and you just aren't smart enough to stop it.
A couple of times now I've wanted to call back companies and just ask them, "what is it you want exactly? I'm super smart, can work really hard, and meet all of your qualifications? What are you holding out for, a friggin rocket scientist?!!" But then I have to remember that with the shitty economy, the are people with like x2 the experience and education as myself going after the same jobs. Just sucks balls. But good luck anyway! Job market for software engineering isn't bad right now. There are a lot of tech companies hiring people out of college I dunno about IT though. I don't really get what you're saying about whether or not Google is worth it. I'm not sure what you're trying to imply about the work there?
I wasn't necessarily trying to imply anything, just me venting a bit
And yeah, I've seen a lot of job postings for software engineers and cs majors. It's one of the few areas doing well right now, but even so with the shitty economy it's just that many more people competing for the same jobs. I think it sort of sucks for everyone somewhat right now.
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If you ever get anywhere with google, I humbly request that you ask them why youtube recommends videos that have 90% thumbs down ratings. You know the videos with the false titles and false thumbnails that are sometimes rickrolls that have 5 million views because they get recommended for other videos. How hard could it be to filter out videos that have a ton of thumbs down ratings...
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Thanks for doing this, I loved reading both blogs
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On November 16 2011 05:47 BlackJack wrote:
If you ever get anywhere with google, I humbly request that you ask them why youtube recommends videos that have 90% thumbs down ratings. You know the videos with the false titles and false thumbnails that are sometimes rickrolls that have 5 million views because they get recommended for other videos. How hard could it be to filter out videos that have a ton of thumbs down ratings...
Funny, one of my interviewers actually was on the team that specifically worked on the problem of displaying similar videos on the sidebar. He said their decisions tend to rely mostly on covisitation, or the set of videos that tend to be watched together. A bit like how Amazon recommends items to buy together, based on their data of what items tend to be bought together. I do agree though that they should probably more heavily consider negative votes when recommending videos, but worry if that will cause staleness.
On November 16 2011 07:22 Charger wrote:Thanks for doing this, I loved reading both blogs
Thanks for reading! This is really my first foray into blogging, but all this positive support is really making me want to blog more. <3
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Your blogs are really good at putting me back into that panicked state of mind I've experienced so many times.
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San Fran is quite hard to get around-- I personally stuck with the trollies.
Anyway, it sounds like you understood what they were looking for and what you are. It's great that you understand your strengths and weaknesses very well because most people don't know how to accept it. In many cases they don't even have the introversion to acknowledge it. (What you may see as a strength, others may view as a weakness).
Interview anxiety is more common than you might think. It comes down to how you handle high pressure situations and these companies will grill you.
On November 16 2011 04:08 TheToast wrote:
A couple of times now I've wanted to call back companies and just ask them, "what is it you want exactly? I'm super smart, can work really hard, and meet all of your qualifications? What are you holding out for, a friggin rocket scientist?!!" But then I have to remember that with the shitty economy, the are people with like x2 the experience and education as myself going after the same jobs. Just sucks balls.
But good luck anyway!
It's a number of things really. Everything from your personality to the way you go about solving the problem and do you meet their philosophy on design.
There's a lot to it and that's why there are so many stages. Everyone is looking for something different.
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I saw your first blog because of the spotlight (I'm just a TL lurker afterall), but I came back for more since the first one was so good. I like all of the "fuck my life" types of commentary you have in here. That's how you know it's honest.
If you do end up going to Microsoft, I might be looking for a roommate around that time :p
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
Funny, I had a series of interviews for a co-op job a few weeks ago and also concluded that I'm not the best. As weird as it sounds, reading this blog made me realize that I want to hang with the best. Thanks
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Read both your blogs and enjoyed them quite a bit
If you don't end up getting an offer from google and/or choose your offer from microsoft, I'm sure you'll do awesome. You sound like a supersmart person to begin with to get offers for interviews from both places ^_^
Don't ride yourself too hard on the interview pressure, most people experience that, and a lot of companies take it into account, you might've done better than any other interviewee for all you know.
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I'm sorry that your google interview didn't go as planned. I feel from your previous blog microsoft was a much more enjoyable process or successful process for you. Nobody likes not doing well. I hope you enjoy where ever these interviews lead you. Seattle is quiet enjoyable in a very much different way than SF. So I don't think your really losing out at all if you end up there.
Thanks for putting yourself out there and being vulnverable to the TL community.
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Great blog. cant wait to hear if u got the job or not
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Like others have said, despite the billions of dollars these companies have to work with I'm sure they won't fly just anyone across the country to interview. Congrats on the offer from Microsoft (don't wanna double reply) and I'm sure even if you don't get the offer from Google you're a stronger person because of either outcome.
I'm in Computer Science myself and I can definitely relate to the feeling of complete failure during an interview, I actually had one called short because I was so nervous. He rescheduled and I did much better the second time around o_O
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On November 15 2011 12:48 Triscuit wrote:
But in that car, following a grueling and painful day of interviews, I realized that Google is able to do this because they hire very, very smart people. People that can wrap their heads around these big problems, boil them down to something manageable, and provide the users with something good. People that are the best.
And I'm not the best.
Whoa whoa whoa -- that's at best a half-truth. From the interviewee's perspective, you can't see a lot of what happens on the back end.
1) Google does hire very smart people. Chances are that if you got in the door at all, you are one.
2) Google interviews a lot more people than they can possibly hire. Every selective company does this. In my years working at Disney and Dreamworks, different industry but similarly selective, we'd probably interview four or five candidates to each one hired. We passed on plenty of first-rate candidates just because it simply wasn't possible to hire them all. Not getting an offer isn't always a reflection on your qualifications.
3) Interview questions for software engineers at a company with Google's values are meant to be hard, usually unsolvably hard. If they see too many complete solutions in their interviews, they'll pick a different problem. They're looking at your thought process, how you approach the problem, and whether you recognize how close you've come, not your ultimate result.
4) Building great products isn't something people get right the first time, ever. They don't hire brilliant people who get everything right the first time, because those people don't exist. They hire smart people who can see where their own solutions are weak and with the motivation to iterate and try again until they nail it.
5) Not every interviewer at Google is going to place the same priority on the end result of an interview question. Yeah, there will be a few who are negative about a candidate because their answer wasn't perfect. Thing is, everyone else on the team knows who those few interviewers are and deals with this every time they bring a candidate in. To some extent, it's HR's role to ensure that the process isn't dominated by the few negative nancies who find something to criticize in every interview, because ultimately it becomes very costly to interview 10 or more candidates per position.
Bottom line: if you were somewhat successful at some of the interview questions, you're probably doing quite well. It's not possible to see how they'll evaluate you without a much deeper knowledge of their internal politics and how they go about what they do than you can ever have from the outside. But, don't stress because your answers weren't perfect -- that's the entire point.
Edit: The fact that you saw that you hadn't reached perfect solutions and found this troubling is actually an excellent predictor that you'd put in the hard work necessary to make things you develop work well. Don't underestimate the ability of Google's interviewers to see this.
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Interviews are about the impression the interviewee makes on the interviewers.
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United Kingdom3249 Posts
Those feelings during the interviews and the emotional journey that takes place just after going through that kind of process is very familiar.
I am in a completely different field and I have never interviewed for an international giant on par with Google or Microsoft. But right after graduation I went through a few firms that were very big on a national level. Some of those things were devastating. I think what hit me the hardest was that one moment of clarity where you feel like a very small fish in a big pond after having had a lot of experience of the opposite situation. I think I choked two or three interviews before I came to terms with how I had to handle the pressure I put on myself and to actually manage and size that pressure in a positive and productive way.
There is nothing wrong with knowing you are not the best. For most people, that is accuracy, not necessarily humility, modesty or anything else. I think that this is a point many people that come from higher education really struggle with. It is easy enough to tell yourself it is the case, it is not that hard to realise on an objective level. However, I think many people, myself included have a very hard time shaking the feeling that not being the best is wrong. I graduated in the top five from high school, I achieved a 4.0 or rather the equivalent for my B.A. I then went on to work in a place where I was clearly brighter than the people around me before I went back for my law degree, where I finished in the top percentile for the year.
A lot of that was attributed to wanting to be the best at what I was doing. That was especially true during my time in school. Problems were there to be overcome and conquered. I really enjoyed the learning process of it, to gain more knowledge and in mastering my different subjects I felt on top of the world. I felt that as long as I put my mind to it and I put in as much effort as I could, there were no limits.
But the fact of the matter is that there are so many things in my field that I will never be the best at. And to be quite frank, it took me three years of depression and pretty severe illness to come to that conclusion and to accept it as fact. That acceptance is different from the more gentle shoves and tells the world gives you. Because even if you know it objectively, you can figure it out, you still have that voice inside you that tells you it is wrong and that having other people be more competent, smarter or more knowledgeable is a deficiency in your character.
Personally, that transitioned into some kind of hopelessness and paralysis. The self sufficiency and the pride that pretty much drove me to excel earlier in my life became a prison. I would imagine it is not an uncommon trajectory for depression in people of a certain character and a certain make. You end up in a state of mind trapped in between the entitlement and thinking that you deserve nothing at all.
(As I am writing this right now, I realise that this post has gone in a completely different direction than what I had intended and wanted to comment on. However, I do not really want to delete it and neither do I really want to post my own blog about shitty troubles, so I am leaving it in. Perhaps I can also get back to the point, though I would not bet on it.)
I do not blame my problems later in life on my inability to handle interviews constructively. I do think that my case, while perhaps extreme, has some symptoms that are more or less commonplace in a lot of graduates and perhaps in a lot of people who share some of my dispositions.
I am not sure there is a universal way to deal with such issues and to deal with interview despair, I suspect that in some cases you just have to deal with the fact that it will happen before you can steer yourself on the path to overcoming it. There are definitely ways to help, but at least personally, reflecting upon my experiences, that I needed those moments to happen. Not because it was a healthy dose of humility, but perhaps rather because sometimes the negative experiences in life prove to be educational as well.
Now, as I reel this in, I just wanted to thank Triscuit for making these blogs. They have offered some excellent insight not only into the environment of very illustrious companies, but also into the thought processes and the journey it offered.
<3
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@ Lysenko: Thanks for that. You have very good points, and I know very much that they are correct. I'm no longer so down on myself as I was at that moment, but it was a deep feeling of disappointment in myself that led to such a feeling, and I think that is a very real feeling, worth sharing with others.
Being at Google is an extraordinarily intimidating experience. Even moreso than Microsoft, because there was much less "hi how are you?" and more instantaneously putting you under the gun. Such an experience, and knowing that a large number of people working there have PhD's or at least Master's has a very demoralizing effect, and that's why I think I had a moment like that. I'm actually back to thinking I have what it takes.
@ Porcelina: The candle that burns twice as bright burns half as long. It seems to me that you have continuously busted your ass through school and life in general, never really accepting defeat, and that eventually wears away at you. The more tired you get, it seems the more you slip and fall, and thus the more critical you are of yourself.
Honestly I have tried very hard in my life to be reasonable about my goals, and make time for myself, and not beat myself up too hard about failures. I certainly keep myself on the right path, but my GPA has really not been the best. I'm at 3.42 overall, 3.61 CS. That's very good and I'm not going to deny it, but it's not the best because I have never strived to be perfect.
But through it all I have always rationalized "well if I just try harder, or want it more, then I can have it easily." It's a slacker's justification for feeling entitled to something when you haven't really done anything. I have gotten where I am not because of extreme worth ethic, but extensive planning and being very quick to learn things. That pretty much failed me here, and I realized in a bad way that my lazy ways weren't going to cut it anymore.
Thanks for telling me a bit of your story. Don't take it the wrong way but it is a great cautionary tale.
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On November 17 2011 10:18 Triscuit wrote:
@ Lysenko: Thanks for that. You have very good points, and I know very much that they are correct. I'm no longer so down on myself as I was at that moment, but it was a deep feeling of disappointment in myself that led to such a feeling, and I think that is a very real feeling, worth sharing with others.
Absolutely worth sharing! I was just trying to give you a sense for how it looks from the other side of the table. Whether you get an offer or not, unfortunately you are unlikely to ever get the specific feedback that might let you know why. (Edit: well you might get some feedback if you do get hired, but I wouldn't necessarily assume that's the whole story!) Regardless, if you prepare your best and do the best you can, you'll probably do pretty well.
And yeah, I've been there myself. Once you work at a high profile company like a Microsoft or a Google or a Disney or a Blizzard you'll find those types of interviews a LOT less intimidating, because while you'll work with a bunch of really great people you'll also know how imperfect and subject to chance that hiring process really is.
Until then, I'm glad you got your offer from Microsoft, and hopefully one from Google will be forthcoming!!
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I've really enjoyed your last two blog entries, probably one of my favorite blog series I've read on TL, or on the Internet. You're obviously a really smart guy, and I respect how quickly you can see flaws in your initial solutions, because I feel that it's easier to think your solution is perfect rather than your solution has holes, and the fact that you think about the problems after the interview is a good sign of persistence.
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Great read, maybe I'll be in a similar boat soon.
But think about it, Google may hire smart people that can figure out how to solve intense problems involving algorithms but always remember creation of software takes much more than that!
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Great read. I can relate to most of the post myself as I have been recently interviewing and have had similar experiences.
As Lysenko said, you should not be too disappointed by the interview experience and not feel that you are not capable regardless of the result. I have talked a lot of my friends who are working in similar fields/jobs and I have got pretty much universal feedback that getting selected for an on-site interview more often than not suggests that you are more capable for the position you are interviewing for.
However, getting a job offer depends on what the exact skill-set the company needs at that point and what kind of recruitment philosophy is applied. Some companies follow the philosophy of interviewing multiple people for one post and selecting the best of the them while others have a philosophy of one one candidate at a time for a post. In case of the first method, it is quite possible to be really good but still not get the job just because you were competing with someone better.
In any case, congrats on the MS offer and hope you get one from Google too.
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Just got a call earlier. Google decided not to extend me an offer. That's okay though, when I was there I became very concerned that the work culture was not what I was looking for in a company. I think maybe Google wasn't a very good fit for me on a personal level, just as maybe the San Francisco Bay area might not have been a good fit for me on a personal level either.
I think overall Microsoft is a better fit for me, but I wanted to prove to myself that I have what it takes to be offered a job at Google. I'm not going to take the rejection very hard, I'm mostly just excited for what my future holds.
Thanks for reading, everybody. I am going to be writing a blog pretty soon (maybe over Thanksgiving) about what it's like to be a CS major at a university that's considered to be pretty tough (University of Texas at Austin). It's going to be long, maybe twice the length or more of my previous blogs. Hopefully that doesn't turn too many people away. <3
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On November 17 2011 07:59 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 12:48 Triscuit wrote:
But in that car, following a grueling and painful day of interviews, I realized that Google is able to do this because they hire very, very smart people. People that can wrap their heads around these big problems, boil them down to something manageable, and provide the users with something good. People that are the best.
And I'm not the best. Whoa whoa whoa -- that's at best a half-truth. From the interviewee's perspective, you can't see a lot of what happens on the back end.1) Google does hire very smart people. Chances are that if you got in the door at all, you are one. 2) Google interviews a lot more people than they can possibly hire. Every selective company does this. In my years working at Disney and Dreamworks, different industry but similarly selective, we'd probably interview four or five candidates to each one hired. We passed on plenty of first-rate candidates just because it simply wasn't possible to hire them all. Not getting an offer isn't always a reflection on your qualifications. 3) Interview questions for software engineers at a company with Google's values are meant to be hard, usually unsolvably hard. If they see too many complete solutions in their interviews, they'll pick a different problem. They're looking at your thought process, how you approach the problem, and whether you recognize how close you've come, not your ultimate result.4) Building great products isn't something people get right the first time, ever. They don't hire brilliant people who get everything right the first time, because those people don't exist. They hire smart people who can see where their own solutions are weak and with the motivation to iterate and try again until they nail it. 5) Not every interviewer at Google is going to place the same priority on the end result of an interview question. Yeah, there will be a few who are negative about a candidate because their answer wasn't perfect. Thing is, everyone else on the team knows who those few interviewers are and deals with this every time they bring a candidate in. To some extent, it's HR's role to ensure that the process isn't dominated by the few negative nancies who find something to criticize in every interview, because ultimately it becomes very costly to interview 10 or more candidates per position. Bottom line: if you were somewhat successful at some of the interview questions, you're probably doing quite well. It's not possible to see how they'll evaluate you without a much deeper knowledge of their internal politics and how they go about what they do than you can ever have from the outside. But, don't stress because your answers weren't perfect -- that's the entire point. Edit: The fact that you saw that you hadn't reached perfect solutions and found this troubling is actually an excellent predictor that you'd put in the hard work necessary to make things you develop work well. Don't underestimate the ability of Google's interviewers to see this.
Lysenko nailing it.
Took the words right out of my mouth.
Your that guy who wrote the blog about working in the film industry as an engineer several months ago, aren't you?
Listen to this man; he knows his stuff.
On November 18 2011 08:30 Triscuit wrote:
Just got a call earlier. Google decided not to extend me an offer. That's okay though, when I was there I became very concerned that the work culture was not what I was looking for in a company. I think maybe Google wasn't a very good fit for me on a personal level, just as maybe the San Francisco Bay area might not have been a good fit for me on a personal level either.
I think overall Microsoft is a better fit for me, but I wanted to prove to myself that I have what it takes to be offered a job at Google. I'm not going to take the rejection very hard, I'm mostly just excited for what my future holds.
Thanks for reading, everybody. I am going to be writing a blog pretty soon (maybe over Thanksgiving) about what it's like to be a CS major at a university that's considered to be pretty tough (University of Texas at Austin). It's going to be long, maybe twice the length or more of my previous blogs. Hopefully that doesn't turn too many people away. <3
That's the most important thing. You gained a lot of information about yourself and both companies from the interview process. Looks like your well on your way to a successful career. I wish you the best of luck.
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Thank you for your blogs, they've been very informative and are well-written. Even though our fields are different, I can't imagine going through 4 interviews, even non-technical. I am an awful interviewee (and public speaker for that matter), as I tend to ramble and stutter, and I guess that's something that I should really work on. I feel pretty confident before an interview, but when I'm in the hot seat I have a hard time keeping it all together.
+ Show Spoiler [slightly off-tangent ramble] +Another thing that struck me in your blog was the realization that you were not the best (although like others said, you're pretty up there to be flown for interviews and offered a job at MS!). Currently, I'm applying to go to grad school. In retrospect, my undergraduate program had many deficiencies in terms of curriculum and teachers, and some of my grades weren't the best either, (which was was entirely my fault). As a result, I'm going up against candidates with lots of research experience and excellent GPAs, and sometimes I feel, why do I even try? I'm nowhere near the best. But I want to at least learn from the best or even have opportunities to work with the best in the future. I might not be able to do so now, but I definitely want to come close to their level or at the least be a solid person in whatever career/research field I choose.
Sorry for rambling, and I wish you luck and happiness with your career in whatever company you choose. With what you've shown in your blog, I don't think you can go wrong.
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On November 18 2011 08:30 Triscuit wrote:
Just got a call earlier. Google decided not to extend me an offer. That's okay though, when I was there I became very concerned that the work culture was not what I was looking for in a company. I think maybe Google wasn't a very good fit for me on a personal level, just as maybe the San Francisco Bay area might not have been a good fit for me on a personal level either.
I think overall Microsoft is a better fit for me, but I wanted to prove to myself that I have what it takes to be offered a job at Google. I'm not going to take the rejection very hard, I'm mostly just excited for what my future holds.
Thanks for reading, everybody. I am going to be writing a blog pretty soon (maybe over Thanksgiving) about what it's like to be a CS major at a university that's considered to be pretty tough (University of Texas at Austin). It's going to be long, maybe twice the length or more of my previous blogs. Hopefully that doesn't turn too many people away. <3
Does this mean you have decided to take the Microsoft offer?
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On November 18 2011 08:30 Triscuit wrote:
Just got a call earlier. Google decided not to extend me an offer. That's okay though, when I was there I became very concerned that the work culture was not what I was looking for in a company. I think maybe Google wasn't a very good fit for me on a personal level, just as maybe the San Francisco Bay area might not have been a good fit for me on a personal level either.
I think overall Microsoft is a better fit for me, but I wanted to prove to myself that I have what it takes to be offered a job at Google. I'm not going to take the rejection very hard, I'm mostly just excited for what my future holds.
Thanks for reading, everybody. I am going to be writing a blog pretty soon (maybe over Thanksgiving) about what it's like to be a CS major at a university that's considered to be pretty tough (University of Texas at Austin). It's going to be long, maybe twice the length or more of my previous blogs. Hopefully that doesn't turn too many people away. <3
If you don't mind, what is it about google/SFbay culture that put you off while MS did not? You could PM if you prefer.
On November 15 2011 12:58 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +But in that car, following a grueling and painful day of interviews, I realized that Google is able to do this because they hire very, very smart people. People that can wrap their heads around these big problems, boil them down to something manageable, and provide the users with something good. People that are the best.
And I'm not the best. There's a moment in a lot of people's lives where a realization like this comes crashing down on top of them.
Ugh, this is depressingly true. And yet strangely motivating at the same time.
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I'm friends with a few CS majors at UT... University of Toronto! haha. I'm going to show them your blogs. They'll probably be interested. I'm interested in getting a 2nd major in CS along with my finance so I'm really interested in your upcoming blog on being a CS major.
It's unfortunate that you didn't get an offer from Google. Congratulations with your offer from Microsoft.
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@Charger: Yep! I didn't really have any other offers that would come close. I had to turn down phone interviews with Amazon, because I knew if they went well I would have to take more time off school to go up to Bellevue.
@JeeJee: Maybe it was less a cultural thing, and more of it just being a very fast city, so I don't think I could really handle living inside of SF. I'm a pretty low-stress, laid back kind of person, so city living is not really for me.
Also, I eventually intend to have a house. I know that for a similar sized house, or even a smaller one, a house in the SF Bay area or San Jose goes for about double what it would cost in the Seattle area. I think this was more of a contributing factor than anything.
@The_LiNk: Thanks! And tell them to go to as many career fairs as they can. You must master the art of the technical interview BEFORE you really want to look for a full time job. Interviewing for as many internships as you can find will really help that.
@ellerina: I can tend to ramble a bit too, but that's okay if you're a decent communicator. In fact, if you're rambling about a project that you've done, or something related to you field in general (but you're doing it in a coherent manner) it shows your passion for the field, which is actually a very good thing.
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I dunno if it was implied by your final thoughts and stuff in the OP but did they actually tell you no already? Or are you just getting the feeling you won't get the job offer?
If they don't offer you anything, then what are you going to tell microsoft, considering that they knew that you had to go interview with google?
Me thinks they will be in a better bargaining position for you if don't have two choices on where to work. And that may also be another reason why google passed on you. They knew microsoft might fight for you so they would have to pay you more when they could pay someone else less who has no other offers.
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On November 18 2011 16:05 SpoR wrote:
I dunno if it was implied by your final thoughts and stuff in the OP but did they actually tell you no already? Or are you just getting the feeling you won't get the job offer?
If they don't offer you anything, then what are you going to tell microsoft, considering that they knew that you had to go interview with google?
Me thinks they will be in a better bargaining position for you if don't have two choices on where to work. And that may also be another reason why google passed on you. They knew microsoft might fight for you so they would have to pay you more when they could pay someone else less who has no other offers.
My final thoughts were just me getting the feeling I wouldn't get the offer, but I posted somewhere up above that Google called me yesterday and said they decided not to hire me.
And that's an interesting opinion. I always figured having a competing offer would help me, just because it would show Google that a competitor wants me, so they may try to jump on that to deny a hire to a rival. I don't really know if other offers really would affect Google's offer though.
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But what about Microsoft? Once they know that google doesn't want you then they are at less risk of offering you higher pay right?
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On November 19 2011 07:41 SpoR wrote:
But what about Microsoft? Once they know that google doesn't want you then they are at less risk of offering you higher pay right?
I had an offer already from Microsoft like 5 days before I even went to Google. I don't think competition has as much of an effect on salaries as you might think.
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Whoa, you got a response in 3 days? Crazy.
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I very much enjoyed your blogs and I'm sorry to hear you didn't get a Google offer but it seems you can live with that just fine. Who knows where you'll end up throughout your life anyway!
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Hey, I'm sorry you didn't get an offer from Google, but it's nice that they were willing to call you to let you know. Many places won't do that for various reasons that I tend to think are ill-considered.
On November 18 2011 16:05 SpoR wrote:
Me thinks they will be in a better bargaining position for you if don't have two choices on where to work. And that may also be another reason why google passed on you. They knew microsoft might fight for you so they would have to pay you more when they could pay someone else less who has no other offers.
Different companies may have different attitudes on this, but my personal experience is that a competing offer is only really relevant when it comes to how much time they allow themselves to come to a decision. Most selective companies won't worry too much about competing offers, they'll just make you an offer they think is appropriate and negotiate from there if they think you're the person they want to hire.
I've often been in situations where I've interviewed a great candidate who gets snapped up by someone else, or where a candidate tries to spark a bidding war in which my employer might decline to participate, but I can't ever remember a case where simple fear of a possible bidding war would cause us to pass on someone we might otherwise want to hire.
Also, bidding wars do happen for exceptional candidates, but as that implies, they're exceptional. They're not the norm. Generally, large companies do a lot of research to see how much people in a given category are getting paid, and stray from that only when the hire has unusual strategic importance.
Edit:
I had an offer already from Microsoft like 5 days before I even went to Google. I don't think competition has as much of an effect on salaries as you might think.
Exactly right. It may have some impact, but in most cases it's not that large. If you get offered X and another company offers you X+10%, you may be able to get the first company to match the other offer. That's usually a conversation that happens only after both companies have made you an actual offer, however.
I was once in a situation where I declined an offer due to receiving a better one from my then current employer to change jobs and remain with them, and the HR representative for the company with which I'd interviewed said "Wait wait, we're willing to negotiate if you want!" In that instance, though, as it so often is, it wasn't about the money right then, so I wound up moving into a new position with my then current employer.
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On November 19 2011 08:30 Triscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2011 07:41 SpoR wrote:
But what about Microsoft? Once they know that google doesn't want you then they are at less risk of offering you higher pay right? I had an offer already from Microsoft like 5 days before I even went to Google. I don't think competition has as much of an effect on salaries as you might think.
I know you did. And I'm just thinking that if for example google were to make you an offer of slightly more than Microsoft, then MS might give you another counter offer etc.
But I dunno, you might be right.
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On November 19 2011 09:18 Lysenko wrote:Hey, I'm sorry you didn't get an offer from Google, but it's nice that they were willing to call you to let you know. Many places won't do that for various reasons that I tend to think are ill-considered. Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 16:05 SpoR wrote:
Me thinks they will be in a better bargaining position for you if don't have two choices on where to work. And that may also be another reason why google passed on you. They knew microsoft might fight for you so they would have to pay you more when they could pay someone else less who has no other offers. Different companies may have different attitudes on this, but my personal experience is that a competing offer is only really relevant when it comes to how much time they allow themselves to come to a decision. Most selective companies won't worry too much about competing offers, they'll just make you an offer they think is appropriate and negotiate from there if they think you're the person they want to hire. I've often been in situations where I've interviewed a great candidate who gets snapped up by someone else, or where a candidate tries to spark a bidding war in which my employer might decline to participate, but I can't ever remember a case where simple fear of a possible bidding war would cause us to pass on someone we might otherwise want to hire. Also, bidding wars do happen for exceptional candidates, but as that implies, they're exceptional. They're not the norm. Generally, large companies do a lot of research to see how much people in a given category are getting paid, and stray from that only when the hire has unusual strategic importance. Edit: Show nested quote +I had an offer already from Microsoft like 5 days before I even went to Google. I don't think competition has as much of an effect on salaries as you might think. Exactly right. It may have some impact, but in most cases it's not that large. If you get offered X and another company offers you X+10%, you may be able to get the first company to match the other offer. That's usually a conversation that happens only after both companies have made you an actual offer, however. I was once in a situation where I declined an offer due to receiving a better one from my then current employer to change jobs and remain with them, and the HR representative for the company with which I'd interviewed said "Wait wait, we're willing to negotiate if you want!" In that instance, though, as it so often is, it wasn't about the money right then, so I wound up moving into a new position with my then current employer.
Adding to what you said:
As a new grad, you really don't have much leveraging power. Your starting salary and compensations are fixed. Unless you are absolutely brilliant, most large companies (Google, MSFT, Amazon, etc.) will not make you counter offers. What most companies will do, is promise to be more accommodating with your special requests (e.g. starting date, groups, etc.) and a better career track ("putting you under radar" is the phrase they'd like to use, which is pretty much bullshit imo anyway).
Of all people, I've only heard of one case where Amazon raised the starting salary by $15,000 because the candidate was very impressive.
Completely different stories for small companies though.
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On November 18 2011 08:30 Triscuit wrote:
Just got a call earlier. Google decided not to extend me an offer. That's okay though, when I was there I became very concerned that the work culture was not what I was looking for in a company. I think maybe Google wasn't a very good fit for me on a personal level, just as maybe the San Francisco Bay area might not have been a good fit for me on a personal level either.
I think overall Microsoft is a better fit for me, but I wanted to prove to myself that I have what it takes to be offered a job at Google. I'm not going to take the rejection very hard, I'm mostly just excited for what my future holds.
Thanks for reading, everybody. I am going to be writing a blog pretty soon (maybe over Thanksgiving) about what it's like to be a CS major at a university that's considered to be pretty tough (University of Texas at Austin). It's going to be long, maybe twice the length or more of my previous blogs. Hopefully that doesn't turn too many people away. <3
Haha, welcome to my boat (got MSFT, rejected by Google)! Too bad you didn't get Google, I was hoping that, despite what happened during the interview, they'd make you an offer anyway (people often overestimate how badly interviews went).
Anyway, seems like you will be taking MSFT, so good luck with that! Fit is indeed very important. For me, I honestly didn't think Google was a very good fit, and I honestly would not have taken it even if I did pass the interviews.
Enjoy Seattle and the rain~~
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On November 19 2011 10:03 Cambium wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 08:30 Triscuit wrote:
Just got a call earlier. Google decided not to extend me an offer. That's okay though, when I was there I became very concerned that the work culture was not what I was looking for in a company. I think maybe Google wasn't a very good fit for me on a personal level, just as maybe the San Francisco Bay area might not have been a good fit for me on a personal level either.
I think overall Microsoft is a better fit for me, but I wanted to prove to myself that I have what it takes to be offered a job at Google. I'm not going to take the rejection very hard, I'm mostly just excited for what my future holds.
Thanks for reading, everybody. I am going to be writing a blog pretty soon (maybe over Thanksgiving) about what it's like to be a CS major at a university that's considered to be pretty tough (University of Texas at Austin). It's going to be long, maybe twice the length or more of my previous blogs. Hopefully that doesn't turn too many people away. <3 Haha, welcome to my boat (got MSFT, rejected by Google)! Too bad you didn't get Google, I was hoping that, despite what happened during the interview, they'd make you an offer anyway (people often overestimate how badly interviews went). Anyway, seems like you will be taking MSFT, so good luck with that! Fit is indeed very important. For me, I honestly didn't think Google was a very good fit, and I honestly would not have taken it even if I did pass the interviews. Enjoy Seattle and the rain~~
Are you going to MSFT, Cambium?
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On November 19 2011 10:24 Snipinpanda wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2011 10:03 Cambium wrote:On November 18 2011 08:30 Triscuit wrote:
Just got a call earlier. Google decided not to extend me an offer. That's okay though, when I was there I became very concerned that the work culture was not what I was looking for in a company. I think maybe Google wasn't a very good fit for me on a personal level, just as maybe the San Francisco Bay area might not have been a good fit for me on a personal level either.
I think overall Microsoft is a better fit for me, but I wanted to prove to myself that I have what it takes to be offered a job at Google. I'm not going to take the rejection very hard, I'm mostly just excited for what my future holds.
Thanks for reading, everybody. I am going to be writing a blog pretty soon (maybe over Thanksgiving) about what it's like to be a CS major at a university that's considered to be pretty tough (University of Texas at Austin). It's going to be long, maybe twice the length or more of my previous blogs. Hopefully that doesn't turn too many people away. <3 Haha, welcome to my boat (got MSFT, rejected by Google)! Too bad you didn't get Google, I was hoping that, despite what happened during the interview, they'd make you an offer anyway (people often overestimate how badly interviews went). Anyway, seems like you will be taking MSFT, so good luck with that! Fit is indeed very important. For me, I honestly didn't think Google was a very good fit, and I honestly would not have taken it even if I did pass the interviews. Enjoy Seattle and the rain~~ Are you going to MSFT, Cambium?
That was 2 years ago. I didn't take it.
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On November 19 2011 10:39 Cambium wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2011 10:24 Snipinpanda wrote:On November 19 2011 10:03 Cambium wrote:On November 18 2011 08:30 Triscuit wrote:
Just got a call earlier. Google decided not to extend me an offer. That's okay though, when I was there I became very concerned that the work culture was not what I was looking for in a company. I think maybe Google wasn't a very good fit for me on a personal level, just as maybe the San Francisco Bay area might not have been a good fit for me on a personal level either.
I think overall Microsoft is a better fit for me, but I wanted to prove to myself that I have what it takes to be offered a job at Google. I'm not going to take the rejection very hard, I'm mostly just excited for what my future holds.
Thanks for reading, everybody. I am going to be writing a blog pretty soon (maybe over Thanksgiving) about what it's like to be a CS major at a university that's considered to be pretty tough (University of Texas at Austin). It's going to be long, maybe twice the length or more of my previous blogs. Hopefully that doesn't turn too many people away. <3 Haha, welcome to my boat (got MSFT, rejected by Google)! Too bad you didn't get Google, I was hoping that, despite what happened during the interview, they'd make you an offer anyway (people often overestimate how badly interviews went). Anyway, seems like you will be taking MSFT, so good luck with that! Fit is indeed very important. For me, I honestly didn't think Google was a very good fit, and I honestly would not have taken it even if I did pass the interviews. Enjoy Seattle and the rain~~ Are you going to MSFT, Cambium? That was 2 years ago. I didn't take it.
Ah, ok. You sounded like you were talking in present tense
What did you end up doing?
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Really enjoy your blogs, thanks for sharing.
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Thank you for sharing your experience. I'm sorry to hear you didn't get the offer.
But! It sounds like you gave it your best, and you should be proud of that.
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Do you think them people over at microsoft might consider hiring someone like me, with no education or knowledge about what they really do over there? Still got a strong feeling I'd contribute quite a bit and be a sick asset.
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On November 19 2011 15:32 ImDrizzt wrote:
Do you think them people over at microsoft might consider hiring someone like me, with no education or knowledge about what they really do over there? Still got a strong feeling I'd contribute quite a bit and be a sick asset.
What kind of skills do you have? It's probably going to be difficult to get past the HR filter, but you're going to have to demonstrate how you're going to be able to contribute very specifically.
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On November 18 2011 08:30 Triscuit wrote:
Just got a call earlier. Google decided not to extend me an offer. That's okay though, when I was there I became very concerned that the work culture was not what I was looking for in a company. I think maybe Google wasn't a very good fit for me on a personal level, just as maybe the San Francisco Bay area might not have been a good fit for me on a personal level either.
I think overall Microsoft is a better fit for me, but I wanted to prove to myself that I have what it takes to be offered a job at Google. I'm not going to take the rejection very hard, I'm mostly just excited for what my future holds.
Thanks for reading, everybody. I am going to be writing a blog pretty soon (maybe over Thanksgiving) about what it's like to be a CS major at a university that's considered to be pretty tough (University of Texas at Austin). It's going to be long, maybe twice the length or more of my previous blogs. Hopefully that doesn't turn too many people away. <3
looking forward to that blog!
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Nice blog, sorry to read Google didn't take you up but as you said its not the best suited for your style, hope all goes well. 5/5
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To even get the call back to do interviews is a pretty large feat in it of itself from what I'm aware.
don't hang your head
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On November 20 2011 04:29 Triscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2011 15:32 ImDrizzt wrote:
Do you think them people over at microsoft might consider hiring someone like me, with no education or knowledge about what they really do over there? Still got a strong feeling I'd contribute quite a bit and be a sick asset. What kind of skills do you have? It's probably going to be difficult to get past the HR filter, but you're going to have to demonstrate how you're going to be able to contribute very specifically.
When I stay close, or around stuff for awhile I calibrate and feel stuff, then I'm sick good at explaining it. At school I ran around and hooked everyone up because I felt which girls wanted which boys, (like why would a girl walk past and always turn her back in the hall to most guys, and to a few turn her breasts towards them?? AHA, eureka!!). I continued doing this when I got older, now some people I've hooked up are married and got children. (I've also got a sick knack for spotting lies and deception).
When I played World Of Warcraft, if anyone felt like killing themself or things of that nature they just sent me a mail and I took care of it. (I mean, I made them not kill themselves).
When I was a kid and I heard about internet, one of the first essay's wrote was about how every household would have computers and we'd all be connected somehow. (For this my teacher rewarded me with second to lowest grade saying I was stupid as shit. Okay, she didn't actually use those words, but pretty sure that's what she was thinking).
I've lived in front of the computer a lot, so if I chat to people, it doesn't take long before I calibrate and figure out awesome stuff, they say "what we say/write" is 7% of communication (55% is body language, mannerism, tone of voice, pitch, circumstances etc make up for the last 38%ish). I feel I can feel atleast 50% with the words alone. The pause between when they write, when they have more typos, when they don't have. What type of questions they respond fast to, which they respond later too, it feels as if I see patterns most miss. A little hard to explain, but I'm pretty sure it's there.
I can type 800 + touch per minute, not sure if it's that impressive anymore, I guess it was more impressive when I was a kid. But I have this feeling at microsoft, them people really like guys who type fast, a lot. It's like, if you talk to Incontrol, he'll like you much more if you Benchpress a ton, or if you can eat a lot of stuff really fast.
Let's see, is there anything else I can.... Hmm...
(Let me lay down on my bed and put on some soothing music, see if I can find anything else I'm good at lol).
Ah, ok, got one more, I'm not sure how this work, but I used to take a lot of iQ tests, for a lot of different area's(to my surprise) I was stupid as hell. Like math, spatial awareness, personal intelligence so forth. (Who needs that kinda stuff anyway).
But when I took a creativity test I scored well, really well. I scored a bit higher than the top marks you could get. So that must mean I'm creative, but it did come with a warning, said something along the lines with, it will make me very destructive. (Not really sure what that means, but it sounds accurate lol).
(Ok, I'm running out of skills again, I'm going to go bug some friends, call my siblings and my dad, ask what they think I'm awesome at, give me a few more minutes Triscuit biscuit.....)
Okay, my dad was drinking last night, so had to call 6-7 times before he finally answered. I had to bug him a little bite before getting an answer, but he said my best skill was being nice & helpsome....
Didn't care much for that skill so I called my sister, my sister was tired and wanted to sleep, but I got to talk with her husband and my 1 year old niese.
He started with "awh man, this ain't easy, hang on, I'll try think of a skill".
Around 5 minutes later he said "owhh, in depth, you go very very deep, explore stuff deeper than most". (I'm not sure why, but images from the movie Inception popped up in my head).
After that I called Odbjørn (I like to call him Oddi poddi), he said I was loyal, straight up. Then he said he could list a ton more, but I said "NO, just one per person".
And finally I asked my friend Celz on Skype:
(Norwegian version)
+ Show Spoiler + [1:37:58 PM] mariusaglen: ka
[1:38:00 PM] mariusaglen: e eg god på
[1:38:02 PM] mariusaglen: skils
[1:38:03 PM] mariusaglen: å sånn
[1:38:03 PM] mariusaglen: fort
[1:38:05 PM] mariusaglen: skillz
[1:41:11 PM] mariusaglen: CELKZ
[1:41:18 PM] mariusaglen: YOU LEAVIN A BROTHER HANGIN
[1:41:24 PM] mariusaglen: DOUBLE JU WAHT THE FUCK
[2:10:46 PM] Celz: Ka wat
[2:11:08 PM] mariusaglen: ka før skillzvil du sei
[2:11:08 PM] mariusaglen: eg har
[2:11:13 PM] mariusaglen: som gjør at e kan bi ansatt å microsoft
[2:11:14 PM] mariusaglen: ??
[2:11:50 PM] mariusaglen: ansatt i
[2:14:05 PM] Celz: Hm
[2:14:34 PM] Celz: Du e jo ikke direkte data-savvy
[2:14:37 PM] Celz: Koffør akkurat microsoft?
[2:14:43 PM] Celz: brb
[2:14:47 PM] mariusaglen: bARE SVAR
[2:15:29 PM] Celz: lol
[2:15:44 PM] Celz: Går ikke ann å svar p
[2:15:46 PM] Celz: På
[2:15:51 PM] Celz: Korsn stilling e det du mein du ska ha?
[2:16:01 PM] Celz: Kanke bære sei microsoft når man isje e flenk med data
[2:17:22 PM] Celz: Bi no litt som eg spør deg om du kan sei korsn skills eg har som gjør at eg kan bi ansatt i NASA
[2:17:35 PM] Celz: Kan jo ingenting om verdensrom og sånt
[2:17:40 PM] Celz: Så e jo ganske urelevant korsn skills eg har
[2:17:47 PM] Celz: E det ikke? Hehe
[2:18:37 PM] mariusaglen: no syns e du va ufordragli
[2:18:38 PM] mariusaglen: uuuu
[2:18:39 PM] mariusaglen: jaja
[2:18:40 PM] Celz: LOL
[2:18:44 PM] mariusaglen: sei no bære at du syns eg e før noob te d
[2:18:48 PM] mariusaglen: din drittsekk
[2:18:49 PM] mariusaglen: HEHEHE
[2:18:57 PM] Celz: Nei men e jo det e spør om
[2:19:10 PM] Celz: Du ser no vel shøl at du isje e datakyndig nok tell å jobb i microsoft
[2:19:19 PM] Celz: Så e regna no med at du meint nåkka anna enn ei rett opp og ned stilling som require at du kan my om data
[2:19:56 PM] Celz: Om du har stilling som ingeniør så har du jo personlighet tell å va en bra ingeniør
[2:20:02 PM] mariusaglen: ohh nice
[2:20:03 PM] Celz: Siden man treng initiativ og alt sånt som du har my av
[2:20:04 PM] mariusaglen: den lika eg
Translated to English, and shortened down a bit
+ Show Spoiler + [1:37:58 PM] mariusaglen: wat
[1:38:00 PM] mariusaglen: am I good at
[1:38:02 PM] mariusaglen: skills
[1:38:03 PM] mariusaglen: n stuff
[1:38:03 PM] mariusaglen: hurry
[1:38:05 PM] mariusaglen: skillz
[1:41:11 PM] mariusaglen: CELKZ
[1:41:18 PM] mariusaglen: YOU LEAVIN A BROTHER HANGIN
[1:41:24 PM] mariusaglen: DOUBLE JU WAHT THE FUCK
[2:10:46 PM] Celz: Ka wat
[2:11:08 PM] mariusaglen: what skills would you say
[2:11:08 PM] mariusaglen: I have
[2:11:13 PM] mariusaglen: that would make me get hired at microsoft?
[2:11:14 PM] mariusaglen: ??
[2:14:05 PM] Celz: Hm
[2:14:34 PM] Celz: You're not exactly computer-savy
[2:14:37 PM] Celz: why microsoft?
[2:14:43 PM] Celz: brb
[2:14:47 PM] mariusaglen: JUST ANSWER
[2:15:29 PM] Celz: lol
[2:15:44 PM] Celz: Går ikke ann å svar p
[2:15:46 PM] Celz: På
(This part isn't important, he's just making fun of me)
[2:18:37 PM] mariusaglen: now you're just being obnoxious
[2:18:38 PM] mariusaglen: uuuu
[2:18:39 PM] mariusaglen: oh well
[2:18:40 PM] Celz: LOL
[2:18:44 PM] mariusaglen: just give it to me straight
[2:18:48 PM] mariusaglen: you piece of shit
[2:18:49 PM] mariusaglen: HEHEHE
[2:18:57 PM] Celz: No but that's what I'm asking
[2:19:10 PM] Celz: You know very well you're not smart enough with computers to work at microsoft
[2:19:56 PM] Celz: But if you have a position as an engieer, you've got the personality to be awesome at it
[2:20:02 PM] mariusaglen: ohh nice
[2:20:03 PM] Celz: Since you need initative and a lot of attributes you posess
[2:20:04 PM] mariusaglen: I like that one, I'm using that one
Ok ok, that's my plea, so what ya think, you think they'd hire me??
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thanks for sharing your experiences, reading your blog was quite interesting. would it be possible to pm me some of the questions that were asked in the interviews?
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@ImDrizzt: Honestly I'm not entirely sure how you'd be able to pitch that to someone. I mean, a lot of the stuff you've listed off are intangibles. Like you can't really quantify how good you are at reading people, etc. From what you describe it seems like you're very perceptive and detail-oriented. That might be useful in something like usability, or maybe recruiting, if you're actually good at reading people.
Honestly though I'm not very qualified to speak about what MS would want. I don't think that odds are very good though if you don't have a degree, because you might get filtered out at the HR stage (the HR people tend to skim over resumes first to check basic qualifications). But hey, there's no harm in trying. Have you considered going back to school at all?
@Everyone: Thanks for all the support, as usual. <3 I have been thinking about the future UT blogs, and I think maybe I'll break them up into smaller sub-blogs. One labeled "Beginnings" involving a short bit about my upbringing, skimming over high school, what made me decide on Comp Sci, and then my first two semesters, content and generally how things went for me. Expect something sometime later next week if I've got time, because I'm going to put a good bit of effort into this.
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Thanks for the tips. I bookmarked the page and only just read it.
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The reason you are feeling bad from this isn't because you are not the best, but because you haven't had enough of these interviews. After 20 of these you will be so relaxed that nothing will faze you even if you don't know the answer. I remember during my first interview I was so nervous I couldn't even speak proper English.
I don't think they expect you to solve all of these problems, but rather able to solve most of them correctly, and offer some serious effort in the ones you don't know how to do. There are probably a handful of people each year that are able to answer all these questions right, but the demand for these people way exceeds supply.
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EPT
