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On October 30 2011 03:03 ski107 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 03:01 Ikonn wrote:On October 30 2011 02:57 Woony wrote:On October 30 2011 02:51 Talin wrote:On October 30 2011 02:48 Woony wrote:On October 30 2011 02:44 Talin wrote:On October 30 2011 02:39 Woony wrote:On October 30 2011 02:35 Talin wrote:On October 30 2011 02:27 Derez wrote:On October 30 2011 02:22 Talin wrote:
You know, it's very telling that some of the reactions on this thread are just as bad as many on reddit (if not as extreme).
TL has definitely lost much of its etiquette and class over the last year. There's not a lot left that makes it unique any more. Saying that the "internet is evil, don't listen to it" or whatever is easy and you may think saying that makes you look mature or smart in a cynical way, but it really doesn't. Making even a small place on the internet NOT blend into that stereotype is extremely difficult, and not many people care enough to contribute to that anymore.
Milkis is one of those guys who made TL and symbolized the TL community for me, and also one of the rare people whose views on a lot of [s]e-sports[/e] Starcraft related things I can agree with. But I'm not going to ask him to reconsider his decision if he indeed made it, as I don't think TL really deserves guys like him anymore.
Just get a paid translator who will be a nobody with no opinions and will take any bashing in the world for a paycheck. That's the trend in ESPORTS nowadays anyway, isn't it? Professionalism! Yay. It's all about the context of the community you place it in tho. Milkis could have posted that exact same thread on the TL BW forum, and it wouldn't have gotten nearly the kind of reaction that it did over on reddit. Yet he chose to make his point on the SC2 reddit, which is not as strictly moderated as TL and attracts a crowd of which only a small percentage have an interest in BW in the first place (much like TL SC2). It's kind of like coming over to my house and explaining in detail why every piece of furniture I have is terrible and how everything you own is superior. There's a reason people don't react friendly to behaviour like that. Nothing is forbidding you from doing it, but at least be reasonable in the expectations you have. If he posted it in TL SC2 forum, the reaction wouldn't be any better. Hell, the reactions to this very blog post (which is game "neutral" and it's a completely different topic anyway) aren't much better. Even if he posted it in the TL BW forum, do you really think people who disagree with him wouldn't read it anyway and respond to it much in the same way? That's optimistic to say the least. The bottom line is, Milkis is the kind of person who can post an informed and educated opinion on something, and has done enough for the community and been around long enough to warrant everyone who responds to first think long and hard before disagreeing, and even if they disagree to do it in a respectful manner. 98% of the people in that thread posted in an acceptable manner. He posted a very controversial and drastic piece of opinion, so he is going to get rather drastic comments. The remaining 2% stepped over the line but that's got nothing to do with Reddit or TL, that's just how the internet works. I don't know what's acceptable to you, but my count is definitely not at 98%. And I've already addressed why "that's how the internet works" is a shit argument, so I won't get into that again. Here's an easy step to make it work a bit less like that: ban everyone who was disrespectful to Milkis in this very thread. Simple. Clean. Easy. These people are only here because they're allowed to be here and post here. He insulted all the hard work many people have commited for other games for over 10 years. It's understandable that some people would critize his opinion rather harshly. Also all of the really out of line comments got downvoted, that's sort of the same as moderation. There's nothing inherently insulting in that post. People chose to be insulted by it. Downvoting isn't the same as banning - those people are still allowed to post elsewhere. Besides, I was talking about TL, not about reddit. He basically said my interests are superior to your interests and everything you've done is not worthy. That's an incredibly subjective and controversial opinion. wait are you still talking about that reddit post? Because I don't see him saying anything like that, just that SC2 isn't where BW is right now. He even ended up pandering to the reddit audience with a 'I hope one day...' closer There's more to it than the reddit post in question. Its only one in a series of posts/tweets/articles that all fall in the same vein and this one just happened to be the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back.
Is it all about him having a different definition of the term esports than the SC2 crowd or is it somehow actually offensive? Because that DJWheat post was way worse than Milkis'
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On October 30 2011 03:02 Woony wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 02:59 Talin wrote:On October 30 2011 02:54 alexhard wrote:On October 30 2011 02:48 Dakota wrote:
I'm pretty sure everyone that is even somewhat-famous in the e-sports scene gets the same bad criticism from the same shitty people. I know its hard, but just try to ignore them, and know that the vast majority of people in the community respect and love what you do for SC2. The top reply on reddit is by djwheat. Is he one of the "the same shitty people" you're talking about? Because his criticism was right on the spot and, unlike the original troll post, well articulated and inoffensive. Are we talking about this post? I love how you are so passionate and intimate about the BW scene and what is stands for. But your ongoing attacks towards any non-BW related eSports is quite frankly fucking bullshit. You disrespect every gamer who has participated in eSports for the past 13 years.
You act as if no one else ever even cared about another game. That other gamers didn't put blood, sweat, and tears into their game of choice.
You claim that BW is the only eSport, but I think eSports is the thousands of gamers (whether they play CS, Carom 3D, BW, WC3, Street Fighter, etc) who have a level of passion for the game that transcends what's normal. The same gamers who compete on the highest tier of their level.
You just said fuck you to Justin Wong and Daigo.
You just said fuck you to Zero4 and Tox1c.
You just said fuck you to cArn and Frod.
How can you say fuck you to the legends who have put just as much of an effort into their game as someone like Flash or Jaedong? It's pretty much a direct attack, it has nothing to do with anything Milkis wrote in his post and Milkis' post didn't imply any of that at all. His post was straight up inflammatory and an invitation to the lynch mob to go to work. Yes, it was somewhat inflammatory, but what do you except when you make a such a controversial post at a place that doesnt share your opinion? As I said, it's like making a post on TL about how Starcraft is inferior to Counterstrike.
It wasn't somewhat inflammatory, it was straight up inflammatory.
The topic of the post just isn't a good enough excuse for personal attacks. You don't like it? Then write a civil and argumented response as to why you think what he said was wrong, in the same tone that the original post was written in.
Not "BOOHOO YOU SAID FUCK YOU TO EVERYONE (...not -_-), YOU MUST BURN". If nothing else, responding like that only makes you look like you don't really have an argument to make in the first place.
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You posted a flamebait article on reddit...and you're now upset that people are flaming you? People on the internet who flame everybody for everything, mind you. Sorry, but that's just ridiculous.
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That's horrible. Well done, internet.
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On October 30 2011 03:02 Munk-E wrote:
Jesus christ Milkis, we want to like you, we really do, but you're being a damn drama queen.
I'm guessing it's because you're suddenly relevant to the community, and are now subject to the opinion of everyone. I know some people disapprove of you, but come on, you probably had the highest fan to "hater" ratio in the community outside of day[9]. You were well known on TL and gained respect here, you won reddit over by your amazing actions of the AMAs and organizing MKP to come to Orlando among many other things. The last complaint I saw against you was how someone was mad at you for not giving him your autograph. It's not a big deal if this guy was disappointed, or sad, or hates your guts and wants you to die. Any delusion of his to how How long has it been since someone complained about you stuttering on the translations? 6 months?
I guess you just have an exceptionally low tolerance to criticism, but it's really annoying. You're just complaining about how you're too famous. The fact that you said the last thing you wanted was to be famous makes me believe that you'd rather hide from your flaws than have them pointed out. I guess that's understandable, but there are thousands of people who would love to have your job. I get being exhausted after all that work, but they said they were adding a translator to help you, and this seems like more of an excuse.
I also would like to point out that although your last full paragraph just states how your sad and want compliments, and while you're not getting any from me, the majority of the people will give you as many as they can (that is, your loyal fans you didn't repel with this post). Man up and stop whining.
Actually, you will get a complement from me. Thanks for the high five at Orlando.
I have to agree with this so much!
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The Darth Vader NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO sums up my reaction to this.
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On October 30 2011 03:06 Ikonn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 03:03 ski107 wrote:On October 30 2011 03:01 Ikonn wrote:On October 30 2011 02:57 Woony wrote:On October 30 2011 02:51 Talin wrote:On October 30 2011 02:48 Woony wrote:On October 30 2011 02:44 Talin wrote:On October 30 2011 02:39 Woony wrote:On October 30 2011 02:35 Talin wrote:On October 30 2011 02:27 Derez wrote:
[quote]
It's all about the context of the community you place it in tho.
Milkis could have posted that exact same thread on the TL BW forum, and it wouldn't have gotten nearly the kind of reaction that it did over on reddit. Yet he chose to make his point on the SC2 reddit, which is not as strictly moderated as TL and attracts a crowd of which only a small percentage have an interest in BW in the first place (much like TL SC2).
It's kind of like coming over to my house and explaining in detail why every piece of furniture I have is terrible and how everything you own is superior. There's a reason people don't react friendly to behaviour like that. Nothing is forbidding you from doing it, but at least be reasonable in the expectations you have. If he posted it in TL SC2 forum, the reaction wouldn't be any better. Hell, the reactions to this very blog post (which is game "neutral" and it's a completely different topic anyway) aren't much better. Even if he posted it in the TL BW forum, do you really think people who disagree with him wouldn't read it anyway and respond to it much in the same way? That's optimistic to say the least. The bottom line is, Milkis is the kind of person who can post an informed and educated opinion on something, and has done enough for the community and been around long enough to warrant everyone who responds to first think long and hard before disagreeing, and even if they disagree to do it in a respectful manner. 98% of the people in that thread posted in an acceptable manner. He posted a very controversial and drastic piece of opinion, so he is going to get rather drastic comments. The remaining 2% stepped over the line but that's got nothing to do with Reddit or TL, that's just how the internet works. I don't know what's acceptable to you, but my count is definitely not at 98%. And I've already addressed why "that's how the internet works" is a shit argument, so I won't get into that again. Here's an easy step to make it work a bit less like that: ban everyone who was disrespectful to Milkis in this very thread. Simple. Clean. Easy. These people are only here because they're allowed to be here and post here. He insulted all the hard work many people have commited for other games for over 10 years. It's understandable that some people would critize his opinion rather harshly. Also all of the really out of line comments got downvoted, that's sort of the same as moderation. There's nothing inherently insulting in that post. People chose to be insulted by it. Downvoting isn't the same as banning - those people are still allowed to post elsewhere. Besides, I was talking about TL, not about reddit. He basically said my interests are superior to your interests and everything you've done is not worthy. That's an incredibly subjective and controversial opinion. wait are you still talking about that reddit post? Because I don't see him saying anything like that, just that SC2 isn't where BW is right now. He even ended up pandering to the reddit audience with a 'I hope one day...' closer There's more to it than the reddit post in question. Its only one in a series of posts/tweets/articles that all fall in the same vein and this one just happened to be the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back. Is it all about him having a different definition of the term esports than the SC2 crowd or is it somehow actually offensive? Because that DJWheat post was way worse than Milkis'
The former. There was also a small argument between wheat and milkis on Twitter that likely lead up to wheat's post being more inflammatory than normal. I'm sure miniwheat breaking his arm at the same time had a little to do with the anger as well.
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Fuck this  COME BACK MILKIS we need you!
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Omg I did not even know people were shitting on you Milkis, just ignore them, you've always done a great job and I appreciat it
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I respected you and loved what you did, but now I don't.
If every big name in the community reacted to criticism by quitting then most people wouldn't exist.
Get over it, you know you're a good translator, and everyone loves what you've done.
Trolls are trolls.
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I would guess it's a more popular opinion in the brood war forums.
Real world parallel: Don't say you are an undercover nigger at a KKK-meeting
Guess "don't poop where you eat also apply".
User was temp banned for this post.
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I think you're giving far too much weight to the voices a vocal minority.
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On October 30 2011 03:02 Woony wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 02:59 Talin wrote:On October 30 2011 02:54 alexhard wrote:On October 30 2011 02:48 Dakota wrote:
I'm pretty sure everyone that is even somewhat-famous in the e-sports scene gets the same bad criticism from the same shitty people. I know its hard, but just try to ignore them, and know that the vast majority of people in the community respect and love what you do for SC2. The top reply on reddit is by djwheat. Is he one of the "the same shitty people" you're talking about? Because his criticism was right on the spot and, unlike the original troll post, well articulated and inoffensive. Are we talking about this post? I love how you are so passionate and intimate about the BW scene and what is stands for. But your ongoing attacks towards any non-BW related eSports is quite frankly fucking bullshit. You disrespect every gamer who has participated in eSports for the past 13 years.
You act as if no one else ever even cared about another game. That other gamers didn't put blood, sweat, and tears into their game of choice.
You claim that BW is the only eSport, but I think eSports is the thousands of gamers (whether they play CS, Carom 3D, BW, WC3, Street Fighter, etc) who have a level of passion for the game that transcends what's normal. The same gamers who compete on the highest tier of their level.
You just said fuck you to Justin Wong and Daigo.
You just said fuck you to Zero4 and Tox1c.
You just said fuck you to cArn and Frod.
How can you say fuck you to the legends who have put just as much of an effort into their game as someone like Flash or Jaedong? It's pretty much a direct attack, it has nothing to do with anything Milkis wrote in his post and Milkis' post didn't imply any of that at all. His post was straight up inflammatory and an invitation to the lynch mob to go to work. Yes, it was somewhat inflammatory, but what do you except when you make a such a controversial post at a place that doesnt share your opinion? As I said, it's like making a post on TL about how Starcraft is inferior to Counterstrike.
But Milkis' post didn't simply say that all other games are inferior to BW (such an opinion I could actually understand). What he said was that the professionals who play any game other than BW are not actually sportsmen/women, and that those activities are not esports. Because the composition of the audience is different.
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Milkis is just being a big baby fishing for compliments and sympathy
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Well honestly, you don't deserve to be a figure in eSports if you can't take a few hate comments.
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Sorry for not reading the other 22 pages, but does this mean you are done posting too? I'm not sure if i'm motivated to keep the economics threads sane, Milikis :|.
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On October 30 2011 03:06 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 03:02 Woony wrote:On October 30 2011 02:59 Talin wrote:On October 30 2011 02:54 alexhard wrote:On October 30 2011 02:48 Dakota wrote:
I'm pretty sure everyone that is even somewhat-famous in the e-sports scene gets the same bad criticism from the same shitty people. I know its hard, but just try to ignore them, and know that the vast majority of people in the community respect and love what you do for SC2. The top reply on reddit is by djwheat. Is he one of the "the same shitty people" you're talking about? Because his criticism was right on the spot and, unlike the original troll post, well articulated and inoffensive. Are we talking about this post? I love how you are so passionate and intimate about the BW scene and what is stands for. But your ongoing attacks towards any non-BW related eSports is quite frankly fucking bullshit. You disrespect every gamer who has participated in eSports for the past 13 years.
You act as if no one else ever even cared about another game. That other gamers didn't put blood, sweat, and tears into their game of choice.
You claim that BW is the only eSport, but I think eSports is the thousands of gamers (whether they play CS, Carom 3D, BW, WC3, Street Fighter, etc) who have a level of passion for the game that transcends what's normal. The same gamers who compete on the highest tier of their level.
You just said fuck you to Justin Wong and Daigo.
You just said fuck you to Zero4 and Tox1c.
You just said fuck you to cArn and Frod.
How can you say fuck you to the legends who have put just as much of an effort into their game as someone like Flash or Jaedong? It's pretty much a direct attack, it has nothing to do with anything Milkis wrote in his post and Milkis' post didn't imply any of that at all. His post was straight up inflammatory and an invitation to the lynch mob to go to work. Yes, it was somewhat inflammatory, but what do you except when you make a such a controversial post at a place that doesnt share your opinion? As I said, it's like making a post on TL about how Starcraft is inferior to Counterstrike. It wasn't somewhat inflammatory, it was straight up inflammatory. The topic of the post just isn't a good enough excuse for personal attacks. You don't like it? Then write a civil and argumented response as to why you think what he said was wrong, in the same tone that the original post was written in. Not "BOOHOO YOU SAID FUCK YOU TO EVERYONE (...not -_-), YOU MUST BURN". If nothing else, responding like that only makes you look like you don't really have an argument to make in the first place.
If I make a post in the BW forum about how SC2 is way better than BW, am I going to be attacked? Yes. Does my post justify the attacks? No. Should I have seen it coming and not made that post in a place where people have a complete opposite opinion? Yes. Or, well you can make such a post but you have to be able to deal with the criticism/hate.
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The stronger an opinion you put out, the stronger a response you get. I can't see how anyone could have not expected to be called out on that post.
This feels like martyring.
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On October 30 2011 02:43 ski107 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 02:42 1Eris1 wrote:
Honestly that thread is just one of a billion examples of why Reddit is terrible site and why I've never posted there,
Thank you Milkis. I agree with probably 99.99% of whatever you have ever said and thought you were a nice guy and great contributor to the community. It's sad that other people can't seem to see it that way.
Wish you the best, and hopefully one day you'll decide to return. You're delusional if you think the same appreciate majority and negative minority don't exist in both /r/sc and TL. Every thread of his was met with the same 99.9% appreciation and .1% troll that exists in every area of the internet. It is not specific to /r/sc or TL. Hell, just look at the post below this one.
On October 30 2011 03:10 Kangster wrote:
Milkis is just being a big baby fishing for compliments and sympathy
Case in point...
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Good Job small vocal minority you are killing eSports.
Milkis you are a huge, irreplaceable asset to community I can only hope you some day give it another shot to stick two fingers up at some narrow minded haters.
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EPT
