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We'll give you a while to mull it over.
Let us know when you remember that this is the internet, we'll welcome you back.
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Good bye. Best of luck in the future!
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Don't take it too seriously Milkis, people on the internet like to step-up the preivous comments to get noticed, it all kinda snowballs.
Your translating is very appreciated.
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On October 30 2011 02:59 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 02:54 alexhard wrote:On October 30 2011 02:48 Dakota wrote:
I'm pretty sure everyone that is even somewhat-famous in the e-sports scene gets the same bad criticism from the same shitty people. I know its hard, but just try to ignore them, and know that the vast majority of people in the community respect and love what you do for SC2. The top reply on reddit is by djwheat. Is he one of the "the same shitty people" you're talking about? Because his criticism was right on the spot and, unlike the original troll post, well articulated and inoffensive. Are we talking about this post? Show nested quote +I love how you are so passionate and intimate about the BW scene and what is stands for. But your ongoing attacks towards any non-BW related eSports is quite frankly fucking bullshit. You disrespect every gamer who has participated in eSports for the past 13 years.
You act as if no one else ever even cared about another game. That other gamers didn't put blood, sweat, and tears into their game of choice.
You claim that BW is the only eSport, but I think eSports is the thousands of gamers (whether they play CS, Carom 3D, BW, WC3, Street Fighter, etc) who have a level of passion for the game that transcends what's normal. The same gamers who compete on the highest tier of their level.
You just said fuck you to Justin Wong and Daigo.
You just said fuck you to Zero4 and Tox1c.
You just said fuck you to cArn and Frod.
How can you say fuck you to the legends who have put just as much of an effort into their game as someone like Flash or Jaedong? It's pretty much a direct attack, it has nothing to do with anything Milkis wrote in his post and Milkis' post didn't imply any of that at all. His post was straight up inflammatory and an invitation to the lynch mob to go to work.
If anything someone like Wheat ought to know better.
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On October 30 2011 02:57 Woony wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 02:51 Talin wrote:On October 30 2011 02:48 Woony wrote:On October 30 2011 02:44 Talin wrote:On October 30 2011 02:39 Woony wrote:On October 30 2011 02:35 Talin wrote:On October 30 2011 02:27 Derez wrote:On October 30 2011 02:22 Talin wrote:
You know, it's very telling that some of the reactions on this thread are just as bad as many on reddit (if not as extreme).
TL has definitely lost much of its etiquette and class over the last year. There's not a lot left that makes it unique any more. Saying that the "internet is evil, don't listen to it" or whatever is easy and you may think saying that makes you look mature or smart in a cynical way, but it really doesn't. Making even a small place on the internet NOT blend into that stereotype is extremely difficult, and not many people care enough to contribute to that anymore.
Milkis is one of those guys who made TL and symbolized the TL community for me, and also one of the rare people whose views on a lot of [s]e-sports[/e] Starcraft related things I can agree with. But I'm not going to ask him to reconsider his decision if he indeed made it, as I don't think TL really deserves guys like him anymore.
Just get a paid translator who will be a nobody with no opinions and will take any bashing in the world for a paycheck. That's the trend in ESPORTS nowadays anyway, isn't it? Professionalism! Yay. It's all about the context of the community you place it in tho. Milkis could have posted that exact same thread on the TL BW forum, and it wouldn't have gotten nearly the kind of reaction that it did over on reddit. Yet he chose to make his point on the SC2 reddit, which is not as strictly moderated as TL and attracts a crowd of which only a small percentage have an interest in BW in the first place (much like TL SC2). It's kind of like coming over to my house and explaining in detail why every piece of furniture I have is terrible and how everything you own is superior. There's a reason people don't react friendly to behaviour like that. Nothing is forbidding you from doing it, but at least be reasonable in the expectations you have. If he posted it in TL SC2 forum, the reaction wouldn't be any better. Hell, the reactions to this very blog post (which is game "neutral" and it's a completely different topic anyway) aren't much better. Even if he posted it in the TL BW forum, do you really think people who disagree with him wouldn't read it anyway and respond to it much in the same way? That's optimistic to say the least. The bottom line is, Milkis is the kind of person who can post an informed and educated opinion on something, and has done enough for the community and been around long enough to warrant everyone who responds to first think long and hard before disagreeing, and even if they disagree to do it in a respectful manner. 98% of the people in that thread posted in an acceptable manner. He posted a very controversial and drastic piece of opinion, so he is going to get rather drastic comments. The remaining 2% stepped over the line but that's got nothing to do with Reddit or TL, that's just how the internet works. I don't know what's acceptable to you, but my count is definitely not at 98%. And I've already addressed why "that's how the internet works" is a shit argument, so I won't get into that again. Here's an easy step to make it work a bit less like that: ban everyone who was disrespectful to Milkis in this very thread. Simple. Clean. Easy. These people are only here because they're allowed to be here and post here. He insulted all the hard work many people have commited for other games for over 10 years. It's understandable that some people would critize his opinion rather harshly. Also all of the really out of line comments got downvoted, that's sort of the same as moderation. There's nothing inherently insulting in that post. People chose to be insulted by it. Downvoting isn't the same as banning - those people are still allowed to post elsewhere. Besides, I was talking about TL, not about reddit. He basically said my interests are superior to your interests and everything you've done is not worthy. That's an incredibly subjective and controversial opinion.
wait are you still talking about that reddit post? Because I don't see him saying anything like that, just that SC2 isn't where BW is right now. He even ended up pandering to the reddit audience with a 'I hope one day...' closer
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Jesus christ Milkis, we want to like you, we really do, but you're being a damn drama queen.
I'm guessing it's because you're suddenly relevant to the community, and are now subject to the opinion of everyone. I know some people disapprove of you, but come on, you probably had the highest fan to "hater" ratio in the community outside of day[9]. You were well known on TL and gained respect here, you won reddit over by your amazing actions of the AMAs and organizing MKP to come to Orlando among many other things. The last complaint I saw against you was how someone was mad at you for not giving him your autograph. It's not a big deal if this guy was disappointed, or sad, or hates your guts and wants you to die. Any delusion of his to how How long has it been since someone complained about you stuttering on the translations? 6 months?
I guess you just have an exceptionally low tolerance to criticism, but it's really annoying. You're just complaining about how you're too famous. The fact that you said the last thing you wanted was to be famous makes me believe that you'd rather hide from your flaws than have them pointed out. I guess that's understandable, but there are thousands of people who would love to have your job. I get being exhausted after all that work, but they said they were adding a translator to help you, and this seems like more of an excuse.
I also would like to point out that although your last full paragraph just states how your sad and want compliments, and while you're not getting any from me, the majority of the people will give you as many as they can (that is, your loyal fans you didn't repel with this post). Man up and stop whining.
Actually, you will get a complement from me. Thanks for the high five at Orlando.
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On October 30 2011 02:59 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 02:54 alexhard wrote:On October 30 2011 02:48 Dakota wrote:
I'm pretty sure everyone that is even somewhat-famous in the e-sports scene gets the same bad criticism from the same shitty people. I know its hard, but just try to ignore them, and know that the vast majority of people in the community respect and love what you do for SC2. The top reply on reddit is by djwheat. Is he one of the "the same shitty people" you're talking about? Because his criticism was right on the spot and, unlike the original troll post, well articulated and inoffensive. Are we talking about this post? Show nested quote +I love how you are so passionate and intimate about the BW scene and what is stands for. But your ongoing attacks towards any non-BW related eSports is quite frankly fucking bullshit. You disrespect every gamer who has participated in eSports for the past 13 years.
You act as if no one else ever even cared about another game. That other gamers didn't put blood, sweat, and tears into their game of choice.
You claim that BW is the only eSport, but I think eSports is the thousands of gamers (whether they play CS, Carom 3D, BW, WC3, Street Fighter, etc) who have a level of passion for the game that transcends what's normal. The same gamers who compete on the highest tier of their level.
You just said fuck you to Justin Wong and Daigo.
You just said fuck you to Zero4 and Tox1c.
You just said fuck you to cArn and Frod.
How can you say fuck you to the legends who have put just as much of an effort into their game as someone like Flash or Jaedong? It's pretty much a direct attack, it has nothing to do with anything Milkis wrote in his post and Milkis' post didn't imply any of that at all. His post was straight up inflammatory and an invitation to the lynch mob to go to work.
Yes, it was somewhat inflammatory, but what do you except when you make a such a controversial post at a place that doesnt share your opinion? As I said, it's like making a post on TL about how Starcraft is inferior to Counterstrike.
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On October 30 2011 03:01 zawk9 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 02:59 Talin wrote:On October 30 2011 02:54 alexhard wrote:On October 30 2011 02:48 Dakota wrote:
I'm pretty sure everyone that is even somewhat-famous in the e-sports scene gets the same bad criticism from the same shitty people. I know its hard, but just try to ignore them, and know that the vast majority of people in the community respect and love what you do for SC2. The top reply on reddit is by djwheat. Is he one of the "the same shitty people" you're talking about? Because his criticism was right on the spot and, unlike the original troll post, well articulated and inoffensive. Are we talking about this post? I love how you are so passionate and intimate about the BW scene and what is stands for. But your ongoing attacks towards any non-BW related eSports is quite frankly fucking bullshit. You disrespect every gamer who has participated in eSports for the past 13 years.
You act as if no one else ever even cared about another game. That other gamers didn't put blood, sweat, and tears into their game of choice.
You claim that BW is the only eSport, but I think eSports is the thousands of gamers (whether they play CS, Carom 3D, BW, WC3, Street Fighter, etc) who have a level of passion for the game that transcends what's normal. The same gamers who compete on the highest tier of their level.
You just said fuck you to Justin Wong and Daigo.
You just said fuck you to Zero4 and Tox1c.
You just said fuck you to cArn and Frod.
How can you say fuck you to the legends who have put just as much of an effort into their game as someone like Flash or Jaedong? It's pretty much a direct attack, it has nothing to do with anything Milkis wrote in his post and Milkis' post didn't imply any of that at all. His post was straight up inflammatory and an invitation to the lynch mob to go to work. If anything someone like Wheat ought to know better.
Wheat called Milkis on his bullshit. What does he need to know better about?
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If you quit anything that you get criticism for, you're going to end up quitting a lot of shit.
Hope you come to your senses and come the fuck back.
If you're trolling, good for you.
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He knows 90% of people love him, and leaves because the 10% trolls get under his skin?
Well... bye?
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On October 30 2011 02:59 Ladnil wrote:
Milkis, you've got the Michael Scott problem. You care too much and you work too hard. After you've taken some time off I hope you cool down and return to the scene with a new determination not to kill yourself doing it.
And I'm sorry, but how were you not expecting trolls on the internet? If you suddenly refuse to have opinions or create content because some small percent of people are going to be dicks about it, you've lost far more respect from people like me than the trolls could ever have taken away from you. Even if you are going to step away from the public eye, the smart move would have been to just quietly stop, not to go out in flames of impotent internet rage.
When the first upvoted response is from an djwheat it kinda makes you not feel so welcomed in the scene.
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i hope you reconsider milkis, i think people on the forums say things that they would never do in real life and sure it should not make you feel bad because its just the internet but of course on some level it starts to effect you, i think you do more for the community than anyone who ever criticized you, please change your mind.
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On October 30 2011 03:01 Ikonn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 02:57 Woony wrote:On October 30 2011 02:51 Talin wrote:On October 30 2011 02:48 Woony wrote:On October 30 2011 02:44 Talin wrote:On October 30 2011 02:39 Woony wrote:On October 30 2011 02:35 Talin wrote:On October 30 2011 02:27 Derez wrote:On October 30 2011 02:22 Talin wrote:
You know, it's very telling that some of the reactions on this thread are just as bad as many on reddit (if not as extreme).
TL has definitely lost much of its etiquette and class over the last year. There's not a lot left that makes it unique any more. Saying that the "internet is evil, don't listen to it" or whatever is easy and you may think saying that makes you look mature or smart in a cynical way, but it really doesn't. Making even a small place on the internet NOT blend into that stereotype is extremely difficult, and not many people care enough to contribute to that anymore.
Milkis is one of those guys who made TL and symbolized the TL community for me, and also one of the rare people whose views on a lot of [s]e-sports[/e] Starcraft related things I can agree with. But I'm not going to ask him to reconsider his decision if he indeed made it, as I don't think TL really deserves guys like him anymore.
Just get a paid translator who will be a nobody with no opinions and will take any bashing in the world for a paycheck. That's the trend in ESPORTS nowadays anyway, isn't it? Professionalism! Yay. It's all about the context of the community you place it in tho. Milkis could have posted that exact same thread on the TL BW forum, and it wouldn't have gotten nearly the kind of reaction that it did over on reddit. Yet he chose to make his point on the SC2 reddit, which is not as strictly moderated as TL and attracts a crowd of which only a small percentage have an interest in BW in the first place (much like TL SC2). It's kind of like coming over to my house and explaining in detail why every piece of furniture I have is terrible and how everything you own is superior. There's a reason people don't react friendly to behaviour like that. Nothing is forbidding you from doing it, but at least be reasonable in the expectations you have. If he posted it in TL SC2 forum, the reaction wouldn't be any better. Hell, the reactions to this very blog post (which is game "neutral" and it's a completely different topic anyway) aren't much better. Even if he posted it in the TL BW forum, do you really think people who disagree with him wouldn't read it anyway and respond to it much in the same way? That's optimistic to say the least. The bottom line is, Milkis is the kind of person who can post an informed and educated opinion on something, and has done enough for the community and been around long enough to warrant everyone who responds to first think long and hard before disagreeing, and even if they disagree to do it in a respectful manner. 98% of the people in that thread posted in an acceptable manner. He posted a very controversial and drastic piece of opinion, so he is going to get rather drastic comments. The remaining 2% stepped over the line but that's got nothing to do with Reddit or TL, that's just how the internet works. I don't know what's acceptable to you, but my count is definitely not at 98%. And I've already addressed why "that's how the internet works" is a shit argument, so I won't get into that again. Here's an easy step to make it work a bit less like that: ban everyone who was disrespectful to Milkis in this very thread. Simple. Clean. Easy. These people are only here because they're allowed to be here and post here. He insulted all the hard work many people have commited for other games for over 10 years. It's understandable that some people would critize his opinion rather harshly. Also all of the really out of line comments got downvoted, that's sort of the same as moderation. There's nothing inherently insulting in that post. People chose to be insulted by it. Downvoting isn't the same as banning - those people are still allowed to post elsewhere. Besides, I was talking about TL, not about reddit. He basically said my interests are superior to your interests and everything you've done is not worthy. That's an incredibly subjective and controversial opinion. wait are you still talking about that reddit post? Because I don't see him saying anything like that, just that SC2 isn't where BW is right now. He even ended up pandering to the reddit audience with a 'I hope one day...' closer
There's more to it than the reddit post in question. Its only one in a series of posts/tweets/articles that all fall in the same vein and this one just happened to be the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back.
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Criticism and getting flamed is part of being in the public eye. Look at InControL, he gets that kind of shit all the time. If you don't want to translate anymore then don't, but quitting because there are idiots on the internet is just silly.
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On October 30 2011 03:01 Ikonn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 02:57 Woony wrote:On October 30 2011 02:51 Talin wrote:On October 30 2011 02:48 Woony wrote:On October 30 2011 02:44 Talin wrote:On October 30 2011 02:39 Woony wrote:On October 30 2011 02:35 Talin wrote:On October 30 2011 02:27 Derez wrote:On October 30 2011 02:22 Talin wrote:
You know, it's very telling that some of the reactions on this thread are just as bad as many on reddit (if not as extreme).
TL has definitely lost much of its etiquette and class over the last year. There's not a lot left that makes it unique any more. Saying that the "internet is evil, don't listen to it" or whatever is easy and you may think saying that makes you look mature or smart in a cynical way, but it really doesn't. Making even a small place on the internet NOT blend into that stereotype is extremely difficult, and not many people care enough to contribute to that anymore.
Milkis is one of those guys who made TL and symbolized the TL community for me, and also one of the rare people whose views on a lot of [s]e-sports[/e] Starcraft related things I can agree with. But I'm not going to ask him to reconsider his decision if he indeed made it, as I don't think TL really deserves guys like him anymore.
Just get a paid translator who will be a nobody with no opinions and will take any bashing in the world for a paycheck. That's the trend in ESPORTS nowadays anyway, isn't it? Professionalism! Yay. It's all about the context of the community you place it in tho. Milkis could have posted that exact same thread on the TL BW forum, and it wouldn't have gotten nearly the kind of reaction that it did over on reddit. Yet he chose to make his point on the SC2 reddit, which is not as strictly moderated as TL and attracts a crowd of which only a small percentage have an interest in BW in the first place (much like TL SC2). It's kind of like coming over to my house and explaining in detail why every piece of furniture I have is terrible and how everything you own is superior. There's a reason people don't react friendly to behaviour like that. Nothing is forbidding you from doing it, but at least be reasonable in the expectations you have. If he posted it in TL SC2 forum, the reaction wouldn't be any better. Hell, the reactions to this very blog post (which is game "neutral" and it's a completely different topic anyway) aren't much better. Even if he posted it in the TL BW forum, do you really think people who disagree with him wouldn't read it anyway and respond to it much in the same way? That's optimistic to say the least. The bottom line is, Milkis is the kind of person who can post an informed and educated opinion on something, and has done enough for the community and been around long enough to warrant everyone who responds to first think long and hard before disagreeing, and even if they disagree to do it in a respectful manner. 98% of the people in that thread posted in an acceptable manner. He posted a very controversial and drastic piece of opinion, so he is going to get rather drastic comments. The remaining 2% stepped over the line but that's got nothing to do with Reddit or TL, that's just how the internet works. I don't know what's acceptable to you, but my count is definitely not at 98%. And I've already addressed why "that's how the internet works" is a shit argument, so I won't get into that again. Here's an easy step to make it work a bit less like that: ban everyone who was disrespectful to Milkis in this very thread. Simple. Clean. Easy. These people are only here because they're allowed to be here and post here. He insulted all the hard work many people have commited for other games for over 10 years. It's understandable that some people would critize his opinion rather harshly. Also all of the really out of line comments got downvoted, that's sort of the same as moderation. There's nothing inherently insulting in that post. People chose to be insulted by it. Downvoting isn't the same as banning - those people are still allowed to post elsewhere. Besides, I was talking about TL, not about reddit. He basically said my interests are superior to your interests and everything you've done is not worthy. That's an incredibly subjective and controversial opinion. wait are you still talking about that reddit post? Because I don't see him saying anything like that, just that SC2 isn't where BW is right now. He even ended up pandering to the reddit audience with a 'I hope one day...' closer
He said only Starcraft is worthy of being called an Esport.
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On October 30 2011 02:57 Woony wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 02:51 Talin wrote:On October 30 2011 02:48 Woony wrote:On October 30 2011 02:44 Talin wrote:On October 30 2011 02:39 Woony wrote:On October 30 2011 02:35 Talin wrote:On October 30 2011 02:27 Derez wrote:On October 30 2011 02:22 Talin wrote:
You know, it's very telling that some of the reactions on this thread are just as bad as many on reddit (if not as extreme).
TL has definitely lost much of its etiquette and class over the last year. There's not a lot left that makes it unique any more. Saying that the "internet is evil, don't listen to it" or whatever is easy and you may think saying that makes you look mature or smart in a cynical way, but it really doesn't. Making even a small place on the internet NOT blend into that stereotype is extremely difficult, and not many people care enough to contribute to that anymore.
Milkis is one of those guys who made TL and symbolized the TL community for me, and also one of the rare people whose views on a lot of [s]e-sports[/e] Starcraft related things I can agree with. But I'm not going to ask him to reconsider his decision if he indeed made it, as I don't think TL really deserves guys like him anymore.
Just get a paid translator who will be a nobody with no opinions and will take any bashing in the world for a paycheck. That's the trend in ESPORTS nowadays anyway, isn't it? Professionalism! Yay. It's all about the context of the community you place it in tho. Milkis could have posted that exact same thread on the TL BW forum, and it wouldn't have gotten nearly the kind of reaction that it did over on reddit. Yet he chose to make his point on the SC2 reddit, which is not as strictly moderated as TL and attracts a crowd of which only a small percentage have an interest in BW in the first place (much like TL SC2). It's kind of like coming over to my house and explaining in detail why every piece of furniture I have is terrible and how everything you own is superior. There's a reason people don't react friendly to behaviour like that. Nothing is forbidding you from doing it, but at least be reasonable in the expectations you have. If he posted it in TL SC2 forum, the reaction wouldn't be any better. Hell, the reactions to this very blog post (which is game "neutral" and it's a completely different topic anyway) aren't much better. Even if he posted it in the TL BW forum, do you really think people who disagree with him wouldn't read it anyway and respond to it much in the same way? That's optimistic to say the least. The bottom line is, Milkis is the kind of person who can post an informed and educated opinion on something, and has done enough for the community and been around long enough to warrant everyone who responds to first think long and hard before disagreeing, and even if they disagree to do it in a respectful manner. 98% of the people in that thread posted in an acceptable manner. He posted a very controversial and drastic piece of opinion, so he is going to get rather drastic comments. The remaining 2% stepped over the line but that's got nothing to do with Reddit or TL, that's just how the internet works. I don't know what's acceptable to you, but my count is definitely not at 98%. And I've already addressed why "that's how the internet works" is a shit argument, so I won't get into that again. Here's an easy step to make it work a bit less like that: ban everyone who was disrespectful to Milkis in this very thread. Simple. Clean. Easy. These people are only here because they're allowed to be here and post here. He insulted all the hard work many people have commited for other games for over 10 years. It's understandable that some people would critize his opinion rather harshly. Also all of the really out of line comments got downvoted, that's sort of the same as moderation. There's nothing inherently insulting in that post. People chose to be insulted by it. Downvoting isn't the same as banning - those people are still allowed to post elsewhere. Besides, I was talking about TL, not about reddit. He basically said my interests are superior to your interests and everything you've done is not worthy. That's an incredibly subjective and controversial opinion.
Well, no. He said Brood War was the only real E-Sport if we define a Sport in the way he does. Most people don't use his definition, but its clear he was talking about the business that exists around sports rather than the sport itself.'
Under his definition, for example, Curling wouldn't be a sport and Football (either one) would be. I'm not saying he's right (he is just making the post a tautology), but he's not saying its "not worthy" of anything that matters (lol).
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Please, Milkis, if you want to give up all this and leave, then do it because you genuinely have no interest in it. You offered everyone a useful service, sometimes going above and beyond the call of duty, and for that you were well loved. Now, after being attacked by a disrespectful few, it seems you take the coward's way out. I'm sorry you've made this choice, as I'm sure a lot of people are.
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On October 30 2011 03:05 zawk9 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 02:57 Woony wrote:On October 30 2011 02:51 Talin wrote:On October 30 2011 02:48 Woony wrote:On October 30 2011 02:44 Talin wrote:On October 30 2011 02:39 Woony wrote:On October 30 2011 02:35 Talin wrote:On October 30 2011 02:27 Derez wrote:On October 30 2011 02:22 Talin wrote:
You know, it's very telling that some of the reactions on this thread are just as bad as many on reddit (if not as extreme).
TL has definitely lost much of its etiquette and class over the last year. There's not a lot left that makes it unique any more. Saying that the "internet is evil, don't listen to it" or whatever is easy and you may think saying that makes you look mature or smart in a cynical way, but it really doesn't. Making even a small place on the internet NOT blend into that stereotype is extremely difficult, and not many people care enough to contribute to that anymore.
Milkis is one of those guys who made TL and symbolized the TL community for me, and also one of the rare people whose views on a lot of [s]e-sports[/e] Starcraft related things I can agree with. But I'm not going to ask him to reconsider his decision if he indeed made it, as I don't think TL really deserves guys like him anymore.
Just get a paid translator who will be a nobody with no opinions and will take any bashing in the world for a paycheck. That's the trend in ESPORTS nowadays anyway, isn't it? Professionalism! Yay. It's all about the context of the community you place it in tho. Milkis could have posted that exact same thread on the TL BW forum, and it wouldn't have gotten nearly the kind of reaction that it did over on reddit. Yet he chose to make his point on the SC2 reddit, which is not as strictly moderated as TL and attracts a crowd of which only a small percentage have an interest in BW in the first place (much like TL SC2). It's kind of like coming over to my house and explaining in detail why every piece of furniture I have is terrible and how everything you own is superior. There's a reason people don't react friendly to behaviour like that. Nothing is forbidding you from doing it, but at least be reasonable in the expectations you have. If he posted it in TL SC2 forum, the reaction wouldn't be any better. Hell, the reactions to this very blog post (which is game "neutral" and it's a completely different topic anyway) aren't much better. Even if he posted it in the TL BW forum, do you really think people who disagree with him wouldn't read it anyway and respond to it much in the same way? That's optimistic to say the least. The bottom line is, Milkis is the kind of person who can post an informed and educated opinion on something, and has done enough for the community and been around long enough to warrant everyone who responds to first think long and hard before disagreeing, and even if they disagree to do it in a respectful manner. 98% of the people in that thread posted in an acceptable manner. He posted a very controversial and drastic piece of opinion, so he is going to get rather drastic comments. The remaining 2% stepped over the line but that's got nothing to do with Reddit or TL, that's just how the internet works. I don't know what's acceptable to you, but my count is definitely not at 98%. And I've already addressed why "that's how the internet works" is a shit argument, so I won't get into that again. Here's an easy step to make it work a bit less like that: ban everyone who was disrespectful to Milkis in this very thread. Simple. Clean. Easy. These people are only here because they're allowed to be here and post here. He insulted all the hard work many people have commited for other games for over 10 years. It's understandable that some people would critize his opinion rather harshly. Also all of the really out of line comments got downvoted, that's sort of the same as moderation. There's nothing inherently insulting in that post. People chose to be insulted by it. Downvoting isn't the same as banning - those people are still allowed to post elsewhere. Besides, I was talking about TL, not about reddit. He basically said my interests are superior to your interests and everything you've done is not worthy. That's an incredibly subjective and controversial opinion. Well, no. He said Brood War was the only real E-Sport if we define a Sport in the way he does. Most people don't use his definition, but its clear he was talking about the business that exists around sports rather than the sport itself.' Under his definition, for example, Curling wouldn't be a sport and Football (either one) would be. I'm not saying he's right (he is just making the post a tautology), but he's not saying its "not worthy" of anything that matters (lol).
Hey man, Curling is fun.
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On October 30 2011 03:05 ski107 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 03:05 zawk9 wrote:On October 30 2011 02:57 Woony wrote:On October 30 2011 02:51 Talin wrote:On October 30 2011 02:48 Woony wrote:On October 30 2011 02:44 Talin wrote:On October 30 2011 02:39 Woony wrote:On October 30 2011 02:35 Talin wrote:On October 30 2011 02:27 Derez wrote:On October 30 2011 02:22 Talin wrote:
You know, it's very telling that some of the reactions on this thread are just as bad as many on reddit (if not as extreme).
TL has definitely lost much of its etiquette and class over the last year. There's not a lot left that makes it unique any more. Saying that the "internet is evil, don't listen to it" or whatever is easy and you may think saying that makes you look mature or smart in a cynical way, but it really doesn't. Making even a small place on the internet NOT blend into that stereotype is extremely difficult, and not many people care enough to contribute to that anymore.
Milkis is one of those guys who made TL and symbolized the TL community for me, and also one of the rare people whose views on a lot of [s]e-sports[/e] Starcraft related things I can agree with. But I'm not going to ask him to reconsider his decision if he indeed made it, as I don't think TL really deserves guys like him anymore.
Just get a paid translator who will be a nobody with no opinions and will take any bashing in the world for a paycheck. That's the trend in ESPORTS nowadays anyway, isn't it? Professionalism! Yay. It's all about the context of the community you place it in tho. Milkis could have posted that exact same thread on the TL BW forum, and it wouldn't have gotten nearly the kind of reaction that it did over on reddit. Yet he chose to make his point on the SC2 reddit, which is not as strictly moderated as TL and attracts a crowd of which only a small percentage have an interest in BW in the first place (much like TL SC2). It's kind of like coming over to my house and explaining in detail why every piece of furniture I have is terrible and how everything you own is superior. There's a reason people don't react friendly to behaviour like that. Nothing is forbidding you from doing it, but at least be reasonable in the expectations you have. If he posted it in TL SC2 forum, the reaction wouldn't be any better. Hell, the reactions to this very blog post (which is game "neutral" and it's a completely different topic anyway) aren't much better. Even if he posted it in the TL BW forum, do you really think people who disagree with him wouldn't read it anyway and respond to it much in the same way? That's optimistic to say the least. The bottom line is, Milkis is the kind of person who can post an informed and educated opinion on something, and has done enough for the community and been around long enough to warrant everyone who responds to first think long and hard before disagreeing, and even if they disagree to do it in a respectful manner. 98% of the people in that thread posted in an acceptable manner. He posted a very controversial and drastic piece of opinion, so he is going to get rather drastic comments. The remaining 2% stepped over the line but that's got nothing to do with Reddit or TL, that's just how the internet works. I don't know what's acceptable to you, but my count is definitely not at 98%. And I've already addressed why "that's how the internet works" is a shit argument, so I won't get into that again. Here's an easy step to make it work a bit less like that: ban everyone who was disrespectful to Milkis in this very thread. Simple. Clean. Easy. These people are only here because they're allowed to be here and post here. He insulted all the hard work many people have commited for other games for over 10 years. It's understandable that some people would critize his opinion rather harshly. Also all of the really out of line comments got downvoted, that's sort of the same as moderation. There's nothing inherently insulting in that post. People chose to be insulted by it. Downvoting isn't the same as banning - those people are still allowed to post elsewhere. Besides, I was talking about TL, not about reddit. He basically said my interests are superior to your interests and everything you've done is not worthy. That's an incredibly subjective and controversial opinion. Well, no. He said Brood War was the only real E-Sport if we define a Sport in the way he does. Most people don't use his definition, but its clear he was talking about the business that exists around sports rather than the sport itself.' Under his definition, for example, Curling wouldn't be a sport and Football (either one) would be. I'm not saying he's right (he is just making the post a tautology), but he's not saying its "not worthy" of anything that matters (lol). Hey man, Curling is fun.
I agree, but who watches it? lol
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